Football's Magic Money Tree

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Chester Perry
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Re: Football's Magic Money Tree

Post by Chester Perry » Wed Mar 20, 2019 11:14 am

aggi wrote:It came up with Video Unavailable when I clicked it before, I'm assuming it was the same?
it was - thanks for reposting then - tellingly it was on the Juventus youtube page - which may explain why it has been taken down

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Re: Football's Magic Money Tree

Post by Chester Perry » Wed Mar 20, 2019 11:28 am

Your average fan has become almost resigned in their expectation of questionable behaviours from officials and administrators in the games governing bodies, though perhaps naively we don't necessarily assume that is goes on closer to home. Why would a senior official in a national FA provide the said organisation with a loan - is what the Irish government would like to know

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/47636256" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

no suggestion that is was done to gain personal advantage - but it certainly crosses ethical boundaries

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Re: Football's Magic Money Tree

Post by Chester Perry » Wed Mar 20, 2019 11:51 am

Interesting thoughts from Andy Holt re those that have lost out either by missing promotion or being relegated by those who have breached FFP - surprised it has not happened really given the potential income involved - can only think of Sheff Utd in the Tevez saga - not that it helped them really

https://www.birminghammail.co.uk/sport/ ... l-16000699" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

spoken before about him and his column in the Telegraph and his twitter account really pulls no punches

https://twitter.com/andyhholt?lang=en" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

and the thread in question https://twitter.com/AndyhHolt/status/11 ... 2879797248" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: Football's Magic Money Tree

Post by Chester Perry » Wed Mar 20, 2019 6:10 pm

following the recent spurt of Championship financial results and the speculation around Derby @kieronMaguire of the Price of Footballs has posted a couple of interesting graphics on those Championship clubs that have posted their results for last season

first up is the operating losses - so far nobody has made an operating profit https://twitter.com/KieranMaguire/statu ... 8763407360" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
2nd up is the change in wage spend by % https://twitter.com/KieranMaguire/statu ... 1759581184" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

he is right now doing an extensive Q&A on Radio Sheffield https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/live: ... _sheffield" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

if you missed it and fancy a listen you can catch-up here https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p071bc3r#play" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: Football's Magic Money Tree

Post by Chester Perry » Thu Mar 21, 2019 12:13 am

More thoughts from Andy Holt on the opportunity presented by the fact that the heads of the FA, EFL and Premier League leaving their posts at the same time - he and Jon Nicholson may sound like they are of the same mind but I doubt it.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/footb ... ances.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: Football's Magic Money Tree

Post by dsr » Thu Mar 21, 2019 12:18 am

Chester Perry wrote:More thoughts from Andy Holt on the opportunity presented by the fact that the heads of the FA, EFL and Premier League leaving their posts at the same time - he and Jon Nicholson may sound like they are of the same mind but I doubt it.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/footb ... ances.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Colourful way with words, hasn't he. Talks a lot of sense, though.

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Re: Football's Magic Money Tree

Post by Chester Perry » Thu Mar 21, 2019 12:32 am

He is quite media savvy but essentially looking after his own interests I think - still not sure how he got involved at Accy because he was never a footy fan, and now his company provides much of the sponsorship and underwrites all the spending. The media like him because he is always ready to offer and insight, appears completely transparent about the finances of the club and rages against the authorities, all in all he fits their caricature of a gruff no nonsense northern businessman - if he is not careful he might become the modern Bob Lord, at least in the eyes of the press

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Re: Football's Magic Money Tree

Post by Chester Perry » Thu Mar 21, 2019 9:59 am

@kieronMaguire of the "Price of Football" runs the rule over Blackburn Rovers 2017/18 Financial results - where they smashed the league in wages and won promotion while losing £336k a week or a £16.7m loss on a turnover of £9m

https://twitter.com/KieranMaguire/statu ... 1887561729" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

full accounts here

https://document-api-images-prod.s3.eu- ... 957e3e45a0" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

get this one - As well as owing Venkys £108 million in loans the owners have invested £147 million in shares taking total past the £1/4 billion mark. - Did someone say "Venkys Out" - they have been more generous than Uncle Jack

or this - Blackburn paid £187 in wages for every £100 of income in 2017/18 in League One - where incidentally there is a wage cap at 60% of turnover - which means under profit and sustainability rules the owners have to put in more money for equity than they collected in revenue to avoid punishment

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Re: Football's Magic Money Tree

Post by Royboyclaret » Thu Mar 21, 2019 10:23 am

£9m Total Income to Jun'18 compared to our circa £140m.

Who would have predicted that, just a few seasons ago ?

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Re: Football's Magic Money Tree

Post by Chester Perry » Thu Mar 21, 2019 10:29 am

That is actually a rounded up figure for them Roy - but certainly makes you shudder if things go awry for us - Andy Holt on the other hand would love so much at Accy, his budget for this season is a little over £2m

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Re: Football's Magic Money Tree

Post by randomclaret2 » Thu Mar 21, 2019 10:36 am

Makes staying in the Premier League crucial

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Re: Football's Magic Money Tree

Post by Royboyclaret » Thu Mar 21, 2019 11:47 am

Couple of observations on those Blackburn accounts........On entering League One they appear to have required a third executive director, all of whom earned a salary, the total of which was £282,000. They might like to take a look at Burnley where that figure is zero.

Also a remarkable Pension cost of £640,000 for the year. They appear to have introduced a new Pension scheme on entering League One which costs 7 times that of the previous one in the Championship.......You couldn't make it up and it could only happen at Blackburn.

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Re: Football's Magic Money Tree

Post by Chester Perry » Thu Mar 21, 2019 11:52 am

Gianni Infantino talks up his 24 club - Club World Cup

from the Telegraph - and I suspect it will soon fall behind the paywall so here goes - it is quite long

Fifa's new 24-team Club World Cup: gluttonous farce or Gianni Infantino's masterstroke? Adam Hurrey 21 March 2019 • 11:00am

It was breezily presented as something of a side dish to the dog’s dinner that is to be the 48-team 2022 World Cup in Qatar (co-hosts TBA).
Gianni Infantino, Fifa’s permanently perked-up polyglot of a president, had consulted the members of his Council and - to a majority of 25 votes in favour versus seven against - was proud to announce the arrival at the final frontier of tournament football. A revamped, juiced-up, spruced-up Fifa Club World Cup is to begin in 2021.

“Today, you have in front of you a happy Fifa president,” he told the gathered members of the press in Miami, whose beat following the developments at the top of football’s food chain have rendered them pretty impermeable to its illusions of good news. “I’m always happy, but today I am particularly happy - not for me, but for world football.”

Infantino had finally finished navigating the Custom Tournament menu on Sensible Soccer - sorry, his “thorough consultation process” and “bilateral discussions with professional football stakeholders” - and come up with the latest attempt to harness the concentrated superpower of club football, already worth more than $3bn to Uefa, for Fifa’s global interests.

The headlines - and the subsequent hand-wringing - were dominated by Infantino’s pressing ahead with an expanded 2022 World Cup, now considered feasible as long as one or more of Qatar’s famously friendly neighbours can be persuaded to drop their diplomatic blockade and help out. Somewhere amid all the tutting, though, there was a pause for thought: had Fifa, in all their gluttonous wisdom, stumbled upon Actually Quite A Good Idea?

Infantino - with his silky pan-European salesmanship (he fielded questions in English, French, German and Spanish) and the sort of subtly cartoonish face once reserved exclusively for foreign dictators who befriend Tintin only to betray him a few pages later - launched smoothly into a compelling case for the new tournament.

He promised it would deliver “real club football, and not a competition like the one we have now: we want to have an exciting competition, we want to have a prestigious competition, we want to have an inclusive competition.”

And his starting point here is a strong one: the existing Club World Cup has spluttered, largely forgettably, through its last 14 editions, held in Japan (eight times), the UAE (four times) and Morocco (twice). The comically lop-sided seven-team format - in which Europe’s best team lie in wait in the semi-finals while the semi-professional champions of New Zealand take on the host nation’s politely-accommodated representative in the first round - is patently not fit for purpose.

More to the point, it earns Fifa the slightly sad sum of £30m every year. While the tournament’s Wikipedia page says it has been shelved for the next two years before the revamp begins, Infantino in fact said a host was still being sought for the 2019 edition. Even if his 24-team vision isn’t realised, the current incarnation of the Club World Cup is running out of its already limited steam.

Conscious, perhaps, of the struggle to fast-track prestige into a tournament that has no history to dine out on, Infantino appealed to the flaws in the glorious backstory of Fifa’s venerable World Cup. “We have had many great players in history - George Best, George Weah - who never played in a World Cup because they didn’t have strong enough teammates,” he reminded us. “Now all these great players, they play for the top teams in the world.”

Certainly, the concentration of talent among the European clubs - which gives the likes of Mohamed Salah, Sadio Mane and Jan Oblak the sort of competitive top-level exposure that Egypt, Senegal and Slovenia can’t provide in an international context - would be the key selling point for an expanded, full-fat Club World Cup. And that’s where a giant spanner comes clattering into Infantino’s carefully-engineered works.

Quite simply, the European Club Association - the uncryptically-named and powerful body that represents the interests of its 232-strong membership - have said no. As things stand, no elite European side - or even a middling one - will take their place at the pilot edition of Infantino’s new competition.

The ECA have been careful to leave the door tantalisingly ajar for 2025 onwards but have Uefa’s backing ahead of 2021 that there is no “realistic option to stage a 24-team Club World Cup and that it should furthermore not be played at a time when players should have a well-deserved rest period.”

The ECA’s former chairman - and current Bayern Munich CEO - Karl-Heinz Rummenigge chose to mince his words a little less. “The current Club World Cup every year in December is a nonsense competition”, he barked. “Everyone is in agreement about that, including the ECA. I understand FIFA’s intention that this competition should now be reformed.” In other words: show us the money, and we’ll talk.

Who might qualify for a Club World Cup if it was held tomorrow?

Europe - 8 clubs - (Champions League winners 2015-18, plus runners-up, remaining places filled using Uefa's club coefficients)
Real Madrid (SPA) Liverpool (ENG) Atletico Madrid (SPA) Juventus (ITA) Barcelona (SPA) Bayern Munich (GER) Manchester City (ENG) Sevilla (SPA)

South America - 6 clubs - (Copa Libertadores winners 2015-18, remaining places filled using Conmebol's club ranking)
River Plate (ARG) Gremio (BRA) Atletico Nacional (COL) Boca Juniors (ARG) Nacional (URU) Penarol (URU)

Africa - 3 clubs - (Places filled using the CAF's rolling five-year club rankings)
TP Mazembe (DRC) Wydad Casablanca (MOR) Al-Ahly (EGY)

Asia - 3 clubs - (Places filled using the AFC's rolling four-year club rankings)
Al-Duhail (QAT) Al-Ain (UAE) Guangzhou Evergrande (CHN)

North & Central America - 3 clubs - (Places filled using unofficial Concacaf club ranking system)
Tigres UANL (MEX) Monterrey (MEX) Club America (MEX)

Oceania - 1 club - (Place filled using unofficial OFC club ranking system)
Auckland City (NZL)

Infantino talks very well, as it happens. He also has plenty of charm (with none of Sepp Blatter's vaguely slapstick megalomania, at least outwardly) and argues the case continually for the “development of football”. He also has a sharp tongue when the situation demands it: one British journalist in Miami was quickly reminded that “some associations who created football” scoffed at the very idea of a World Cup 90 years ago but are now “very happy” to be involved. He recalled too the doom-mongering when the Champions League was created three decades ago - that “it would kill football” - but that now everybody recognises it was “a great idea”.

Another elephant in the room - and one that no Fifa president would ever dare cite himself - is that club football is a world apart from its international equivalent. Chelsea manager Maurizio Sarri broke that particular taboo recently by declaring that he didn’t bother watching the World Cup “because there isn’t anything to learn, every coach thinks like me” and that national sides would lose “every match” to the best club teams.
Since the well-drilled, high-stakes and open-market environment of club football almost certainly makes it of a higher technical and tactical standard than the international game, it can be no crying shame that the new tournament is scheduled to directly replace the Confederations Cup, that glorified, irrelevant warm-up act for the following year’s World Cup. The prospect of injecting club-level cohesion and star quality into the express format of an international-style summer tournament - without impacting upon the traditional, nine-month slow-burn of the Champions League - might pique the curiosity of even the most jaded football consumer.

A 24-team format would also restore some structure to a tournament that has barely been worthy of the word since it was re-launched as in 2005 as a staggered continental eliminator series that paid a little too much deference to the European contender. From 2021, it will feature the familiar deal of eight groups, with each winner advancing to the quarter-finals and playing a total of five matches if they reach the final.

So far, so straightforward. But Infantino kept conspicuously quiet about the more mundane details of this quadrennial get-together - namely, how qualification would work every four years. It later emerged, conveniently enough, that Fifa would delegate that process to the individual confederations.

What does seem set in stone is how the 24 slots will be allocated: eight from Europe, six from South America, three each from Africa, Asia and North/Central America, and one from New Zealand’s laughably uncompetitive domain of Oceania. The task of filling those slots fairly - every four years, with clubs who compete in their domestic and continental competitions on an annual basis - will clearly be an administrative minefield.
Assuming its clubs eventually buy into the idea, Uefa should be able to dish out its eight places to the 2018-2021 Champions League winners and runners-up - making up the numbers, if needed, by using its official club coefficient rankings. However - for Conmebol, CAF, AFC, Concacaf and the OFC - there seems no obvious way of choosing their contenders without some recency bias creeping in.

Infantino was also keen to play up the inclusiveness of a World Cup-style format, particularly where it comes to the Oceanian representative, but almost dug himself a Blatterian hole of awkwardness in the process. “[Oceania have] one team now that plays the preliminary round of the preliminary round, which is watched by maybe the girlfriends of the players, and their mothers, and maybe not their fathers, because they are working, with the time difference. Nobody is getting any attention for that.”

While a level sporting field is imperative, the chances of whatever commercial spoils Fifa attracts being shared equally among the 24 teams seem remote. There are suggestions that each club could earn £50m for taking part (a welcome boost for the European elite, a frankly preposterous sum for Auckland City or Team Wellington, winners of 11 of the last 12 OFC Champions League titles) and Infantino - as always - appeared confident that “the market” will ensure the Club World Cup will raise a similar sum to the World Cup’s $6bn, especially since more of the world’s leading players are likely to be present.

Ah, those pesky players. Aware of a growing concern that the football calendar is squeezing all it can out of its talented cash cows, Infantino cheerfully but firmly clarified that the new tournament did not constitute an extra burden: it would occupy an existing slot (of the now-defunct Confederations Cup) while also absorbing the annual mid-winter Club World Cup. One tournament to replace five, as he craftily put it. Infantino also conceded that the competition’s summer window would preclude any potential Middle East host nations, a policy that will be watched closely by those who have seen the Qatar 2022 bid evolve slowly away from its original heat-defying promises of air-conditioned stadia and robot clouds.
Infantino talked the talk and seemed confident that the Europeans would eventually join him in walking the walk for what could - could - be a compelling idea: a proper contest of the each continent’s best clubs to find the world’s best club. Indeed, Uefa might well see it as a potential deterrent to the ongoing whispers of a European super league: a Fifa-sanctioned, money-spinning tournament, with qualifying, rather than a private, invitation-only carve-up for the megaclubs.

If the Nations League can go from widely-lampooned ball of confusion to ingenious competitive solution within the space of three matchdays, surely a Club World Cup every four years will be an easy enough sell. Gianni Infantino, as ever, doesn’t seem worried about that

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Re: Football's Magic Money Tree

Post by Chester Perry » Thu Mar 21, 2019 11:55 am

Royboyclaret wrote:Couple of observations on those Blackburn accounts........On entering League One they appear to have required a third executive director, all of whom earned a salary, the total of which was £282,000. They might like to take a look at Burnley where that figure is zero.

Also a remarkable Pension cost of £640,000 for the year. They appear to have introduced a new Pension scheme on entering League One which costs 7 times that of the previous one in the Championship.......You couldn't make it up and it could only happen at Blackburn.
Yes, Executive pay went up 70% even though the new Executive only started work in Jan 2018 (6 months in the accounts) as someone once said - Really quite remarkable

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Re: Football's Magic Money Tree

Post by Chester Perry » Thu Mar 21, 2019 12:02 pm

We know football is largely about TV money these days, and the TV companies are keen to protect their revenue channels - it has been a while since we have heard of any substantive prosecutions for streamers - but these are very significant sentences

https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/foo ... 32696.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

£5m return for their efforts shows that even streamers can make money from Football

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Re: Football's Magic Money Tree

Post by Chester Perry » Thu Mar 21, 2019 12:17 pm

I missed this last week - Jonathon Liew of the Independent - writes that while the Premier League elite are regaining power in Europe, the game in the country is rotting from within - it is a comprehensive summary of the ills in the Football League

https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/foo ... 24921.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: Football's Magic Money Tree

Post by Chester Perry » Thu Mar 21, 2019 2:15 pm

Intriguing plans in the football league re the summer transfer window - Championship effectively following the Premier League model and closing early. Leagues one and two to keep it open until end of August. At least each league will decide their own fate when it comes to the final vote next month.

https://www.efl.com/news/2019/march/efl ... fer-window" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: Football's Magic Money Tree

Post by Chester Perry » Thu Mar 21, 2019 2:29 pm

How many of you are aware of the FA Cup progress prize - awarded to the club from each of the Football League divisions that progresses the furthest in the competition - perhaps the only tv money prize that isn't tiered in value to the division you are in - making it incredibly valuable to League 2 teams especially, though all will welcome it

https://www.efl.com/news/2019/march/efl ... ress-prize" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: Football's Magic Money Tree

Post by Chester Perry » Fri Mar 22, 2019 12:53 am

Back in post #616 we saw Chelsea and Conte were about go to court over the club's refusal to pay the total of his contract with him. post #627 highlighted that clubs were now paying significant sums in the recruitment of managers. It has been quite some time since Burnley have had to sack a manager and pay up their contract, it has saved us a fortune if you consider that in the past 4 seasons the Premier League has paid out £130m to dismissed managers

OffthePitch.com have produced this damning table

https://twitter.com/parnell_daniel/stat ... 6349746176" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: Football's Magic Money Tree

Post by Chester Perry » Fri Mar 22, 2019 1:11 am

The scandal of European clubs charging away fans astronomical sums for matches has raised it's head again with Barcelona charging Utd fans £102 a ticket - Utd have responded by matching the price for Barcelona fans the same and then using the profit on what they would normally charge to subsidize the tickets travelling utd fans will buy for the Camp Nou.

UEFA are now saying they may cap away tickets next season - which is good news - I suspect it still will not stop them extorting fans for tickets in the final though

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/footb ... eason.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: Football's Magic Money Tree

Post by Chester Perry » Fri Mar 22, 2019 1:29 am

It is only a week since I posted about the troubles at Swansea (post #622) and the likelihood that employing Trevor Birch looked ominous - today it has emerged that letters have gone out to all no football staff telling them that their employment is under review amid the need to reduce costs

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/footb ... nship.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: Football's Magic Money Tree

Post by Tricky Trevor » Fri Mar 22, 2019 9:18 am

With nerves kicking in I’ve been checking on parachute payments.
Currently at 55%(year1), 45%(year2) and 25%(year3, as we have been in PL for more than 1 season) of PL tv income levels.. Last years three relegated sides received £45m each.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Premier ... y_Payments" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: Football's Magic Money Tree

Post by Chester Perry » Fri Mar 22, 2019 11:10 am

Unfortunately it is much more complicated than that Trevor. Clubs relegated from the Premier League do get Parachute Payments as you describe and this season that will be based on the minimum Payment you can get in the Premier League which is £94.566m. Clubs that qualify for a parachute payment also qualify for their share of the EFL TV deal but not the Solidarity payment from the Premier league.

Next season both the Premier League and EFL start new tv deals, we know much about the domestic values - EFL £590m - PL £4.5bn plus the 2 packages of all games in the "round" being shown live at once - one has been sold to Amazon for an as yet undisclosed sum the other as yet has not been confirmed as being taken up. In either case the International rights have yet to be disclosed.

With a reduced value in domestic right the Premier League has pinned it's hope on International rights to provide growth, and it is whispered that this year they will surpass the domestic rights and take the whole package over £9bn or £3bn a season. Do not think that this potential 20% growth in rights will automatically be passed down to parachute payments though. Last summer saw a change agreed in the way International rights were distributed, it is no longer an even distribution. Income over and above the current level for international rights will be distributed as merit payments based on final league position. With those finishing last (whose income parachute payments are effectively based on) receiving a nominal amount.

In the football league there has been talks to change the distribution share for each league - reducing the % for the Championship clubs but increasing for those in Leagues 1 and 2. Naturally the Championship clubs are not happy with this (though not as much as they were unhappy with the pushing through of the new EFL TV deal).

To further complicate things the heads of both the Premier League and EFL have/are about to quit their roles with all apparent successors refusing the top role (The FA are in the same position too) as clubs play politics to look after their own interests rather than that of the game as a whole, Much like what is happening on a European and World Level at the moment.

So it is quite possible that we could go down with the Premier League earning more than ever and actually get less money than those relegated last season - though not by too much

of course it didn't have to be this way - there was a time when the Premier League offered to negotiate TV deals for the four divisions and distribute - but the football league clubs turned it down - you couldn't make it up

https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/foo ... 83471.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: Football's Magic Money Tree

Post by Chester Perry » Fri Mar 22, 2019 2:31 pm

Interesting and detailed article on how London has surged past the traditional football heartlands for representation at the top table

https://theconversation.com/premier-lea ... ubs-113066" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: Football's Magic Money Tree

Post by LeadBelly » Fri Mar 22, 2019 2:52 pm

It's more the south coast that's done well recently by the looks of it. Usually only one team in the Prem, occasionally 2 but currently 3 (Saints, Cherries, BHA).
Hopefully Wales will be back to none next year (being selfish rather than anti-Welsh).

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Re: Football's Magic Money Tree

Post by Tricky Trevor » Fri Mar 22, 2019 5:35 pm

LeadBelly wrote:It's more the south coast that's done well recently by the looks of it. Usually only one team in the Prem, occasionally 2 but currently 3 (Saints, Cherries, BHA).
Hopefully Wales will be back to none next year (being selfish rather than anti-Welsh).
The PL has undoubtedly swung South but the North is fighting back. 4 Southern teams going from the Conference. We just need a couple more Northern teams coming into the EFL, to keep the momentum going.

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Re: Football's Magic Money Tree

Post by Chester Perry » Sat Mar 23, 2019 11:53 am

Some very interesting stuff beginning to emerge since the Birmingham FFP and breach of transfer embargo outcome judgement was made public yesterday (besides the fact the Brum have to make a £7.5m profit this season to avoid the same charges in August). It transpires they could be joined by Sheff Wed, Villa and Derby amongst others and they are all getting twitchy as it has emerged that points deductions may follow promoted teams into the Premier League, That would really make things interesting. Apparently their were clear signs of panic at the Football League meeting this week as the smaller clubs who adhere to the rules stood their ground

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/footb ... tions.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

It will all come down to interpretations of the rules and accepting what constitutes spend under the Profit and Sustainability rules (also known as FFP)

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Re: Football's Magic Money Tree

Post by GodIsADeeJay81 » Sat Mar 23, 2019 2:18 pm

Starting a brand new PL season with a points deduction would ruin some clubs and be hilarious, especially for any club that tries to run a tight ship financially.

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Re: Football's Magic Money Tree

Post by Chester Perry » Sat Mar 23, 2019 2:50 pm

for a newly promoted club it would make things extremely difficult - though Wolves would have gotten away with it. If the owners have any sense they would just put enough equity capital (if they can) in to avoid the points loss knowing it gives them a better fighting chance with over £100m coming right back at them from the TV money.

The bigger scare is those that fail to get promotion, do you take the points hit re-group for a couple of seasons (which means drastic budget cuts or you get done again the next season) and then go again, knowing that the gap to the parachute clubs could grow even further (while they also potentially cherry-pick your best assets). Or do you plug the gap every year with equity capital - a la Venky's.

We may be getting to a stage where FFP works as intended but just gives the clubs relegated from the Premier League an even greater opportunity to get back up as the three year rolling losses they are allowed to accrue especially in that first year are enormous (£83m) and that with over £40m of parachute payments coming in.

Whatever route owners choose, promotion from the championship only occurs where the whole club commits to the plan, that in itself provides the stable environment to focus on the end goal, there can be no room for distraction as we have seen ourselves from our promotion years and incidently this seasons troubles
Last edited by Chester Perry on Sat Mar 23, 2019 5:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Football's Magic Money Tree

Post by Chester Perry » Sat Mar 23, 2019 3:32 pm

Uefa has delivered it's annual report for the 2017-18 season a whole 2 weeks before Burnley FC do the same. For those left amongst us that thought money would not be the primary concern of UEFA - this will make sorry reading. Every section seemingly measures itself by financial return/investment - a sad indictment of the game

http://annualreport.uefa.com/2017-18/en/1-1" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: Football's Magic Money Tree

Post by Chester Perry » Sat Mar 23, 2019 3:47 pm

So as we roll our eyes and possibly lament the changes FIFA are trying to implement to the World Cup and Club World Cup, what are the reasons behind it. Prof Simon Chadwick (Sports Business specialist - teaching out of both Salford and Shanghai) remind us that the Future is Asian and reposted links to some thought provoking articles he has written in the last few years. (his twitter is an interesting follow https://twitter.com/Prof_Chadwick" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/in ... _b_1246775" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.ejinsight.com/20170810-the-p ... ch-people/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.ejinsight.com/20171122-europ ... an-sports/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: Football's Magic Money Tree

Post by Chester Perry » Sat Mar 23, 2019 3:57 pm

and once you have got through that he has another thread on the use of sport and especially football for soft power purposes to support government strategic initiatives

https://twitter.com/Prof_Chadwick/statu ... 1157895168" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

the warnings are clear for those fans who still want clubs such as ours to get in bed with whoever wants to spend money on us for their own brand enhancement

https://twitter.com/henrikloenne/status ... 3196544000" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

And here some warnings for the new Team Ineos in cycling by way as an example
https://twitter.com/Prof_Chadwick/statu ... 7290900480" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

https://twitter.com/Prof_Chadwick/statu ... 1801540608" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: Football's Magic Money Tree

Post by Chester Perry » Sat Mar 23, 2019 4:05 pm

Begin to get the feeling that this thread has become one hell of a rabbit hole

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Re: Football's Magic Money Tree

Post by Royboyclaret » Sat Mar 23, 2019 4:46 pm

Chester Perry wrote:Begin to get the feeling that this thread has become one hell of a rabbit hole
Remains a top class thread but on occasions there's a lot to digest.

With the greatest of respect, sometimes less is more.

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Re: Football's Magic Money Tree

Post by Royboyclaret » Sat Mar 23, 2019 4:55 pm

Chester Perry wrote:Some very interesting stuff beginning to emerge since the Birmingham FFP and breach of transfer embargo outcome judgement was made public yesterday (besides the fact the Brum have to make a £7.5m profit this season to avoid the same charges in August). It transpires they could be joined by Sheff Wed, Villa and Derby amongst others and they are all getting twitchy as it has emerged that points deductions may follow promoted teams into the Premier League, That would really make things interesting. Apparently their were clear signs of panic at the Football League meeting this week as the smaller clubs who adhere to the rules stood their ground

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/footb ... tions.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

It will all come down to interpretations of the rules and accepting what constitutes spend under the Profit and Sustainability rules (also known as FFP)
Birmingham have been fairly punished but without doubt there now needs to be consistency shown across the board. Therefore clubs like Villa, Derby and Sheff Wed will be right to be concerned and I'm certain Trevor Hemmings (on behalf of PNE) will have been more than willing to advise these clubs as to how a Championship club should be run correctly.

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Re: Football's Magic Money Tree

Post by Chester Perry » Sat Mar 23, 2019 4:55 pm

I agree Roy but there is so much out there that figures into the conversation - it is difficult to know what needs to edited out (I recognise that some may political interpretations on it, which was never the aim, I prefer a very rounded discussion by which readers can form their own perspective)

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Re: Football's Magic Money Tree

Post by Paul Waine » Sat Mar 23, 2019 7:25 pm

Royboyclaret wrote:Couple of observations on those Blackburn accounts........On entering League One they appear to have required a third executive director, all of whom earned a salary, the total of which was £282,000. They might like to take a look at Burnley where that figure is zero.

Also a remarkable Pension cost of £640,000 for the year. They appear to have introduced a new Pension scheme on entering League One which costs 7 times that of the previous one in the Championship.......You couldn't make it up and it could only happen at Blackburn.
Hi Royboy, you and Chester - and one or two others are doing great work gathering all this "magic money tree" data. And, I guess only a few more days and we can take a look at Burnley's 2017/18 accounts.

Re Blackburn Rovers: 4 directors shown on page 1 of the accounts, and 3 on page 21 Directors remuneration. I assume the 4th director is Venky's rep and he is paid through other Venky companies. The new guy, Waggott, is Chief Executive, appointed Jan-2018. Cheston is their finance director.

Burnley's directors are all shareholders. and none works full time for the club in an executive capacity. Hence, zero is a good figure.

Rovers pensions contributions include its share of the deficit of the defined benefit section of the Football League Pension and Life Assurance Scheme. (I can't see any figures quoted for the defined benefit alone).

Burnley's 2016/17 accounts only report on defined contribution pensions.

btw, Burnley are mentioned in Rovers accounts - the first section of their report is a football review: "knocked out of the Carabao cup by local rivals Burnley." A bit cheeky of them, div 1 team rivals of a Premier League team.

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Re: Football's Magic Money Tree

Post by Paul Waine » Sat Mar 23, 2019 7:48 pm

Football League Pension and Life Assurance Scheme was closed to further accrual in Sept 1999.

It was a scheme for club employees, managers, coaches. It doesn't appear to have applied to footballers.

I've found a report - via google - "professional pensions"

English football clubs hit by pensions shortfall

The shortfall is to be made up by the four divisions’ 94 football clubs. The highest bills are faced by Liverpool at £3m, Arsenal at £2m and West Ham at £700,000.

Escalating wages and failed investments in gilt edged stocks is cited as the cause of the scheme’s deficit. All clubs were sent a letter last week informing them of their obligatory monthly instalments until 2007.

Concerns over job security have prompted many club managers to opt for personal pensions but Premiership managers known to be in the scheme include West Ham’s Harry Redknapp and Manchester City’s Joe Royle.

The Football League Pension Fund and Life Assurance scheme was set up in 1977 to provide for managers, coaches and office staff.

**********************************

Date of this report isn't clear. It may be 2001- with a 6 year plan to 2007.

If Blackburn are contributing again, maybe we should expect to see more clubs being required to fund the deficit a further time.

EDIT: The pension fund's 3 year revaluation was Sept-2017. Rovers pension costs jumped from £90,000 in 2016/17 to £540,000 in 2017/18.

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Re: Football's Magic Money Tree

Post by Royboyclaret » Sat Mar 23, 2019 8:01 pm

Still looks a very dubious figure to me, £640k when the equivalent figure for 2017 was just £90k.

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Re: Football's Magic Money Tree

Post by Paul Waine » Sat Mar 23, 2019 8:21 pm

Royboyclaret wrote:Still looks a very dubious figure to me, £640k when the equivalent figure for 2017 was just £90k.
As Liverpool were mentioned as the club with the largest contribution to this Football League Pension scheme I took a look at their 31-May-2018 accounts.

It took a little work to find the right set of accounts: "The Liverpool Football Club and Athletics Grounds Limited."

Pension costs "shot up" from £822,000 in year to May-2017 to £3,338,000 in year to May-2018.

Remember this scheme was closed to new accruals in 1999.

Maybe Burnley's pension deficit contribution won't be so big - because we were "lower divisions" so lower wages through most of the relevant period. It will be interesting to see if it hits £100,000 extra.
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Re: Football's Magic Money Tree

Post by Royboyclaret » Sat Mar 23, 2019 8:27 pm

Good work, Paul.

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Re: Football's Magic Money Tree

Post by Chester Perry » Sat Mar 23, 2019 10:17 pm

Interesting and informative podcast essentially looking at finances in the EFL talking about the need for competitive balance rather than the growing imbalance. Prime contributor is https://twitter.com/drrob_wilson?lang=en" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; of Sheffield Hallam Uni

http://d3d4football.com/d3d4-podcast-extra-money-ball/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: Football's Magic Money Tree

Post by Chester Perry » Sat Mar 23, 2019 11:02 pm

Man City Fan TV - A knowledgeable discussion of Man City, FFP and Football Leaks and current UEFA investigation with Jonathon Northcroft of the Times and a City who knows much much more than me about FFP - though he tries to hard to defend his club

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=41lrrMA ... e=youtu.be" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: Football's Magic Money Tree

Post by CombatClaret » Sat Mar 23, 2019 11:08 pm

Sorry to cross threads but it's funny how many people rail against wealth inequality in football but not in general society ;)
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Re: Football's Magic Money Tree

Post by Chester Perry » Mon Mar 25, 2019 2:13 pm

Kieron Maguire outlines the financial Issues at Birmingham, Blackburn and Bolton for the BBC

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/47691385" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: Football's Magic Money Tree

Post by Chester Perry » Mon Mar 25, 2019 2:14 pm

Swiss Ramble looks at PSG's financial Results for 2017/18

https://twitter.com/SwissRamble/status/ ... 9716885505" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: Football's Magic Money Tree

Post by Chester Perry » Mon Mar 25, 2019 2:17 pm

Prof. Simon Chadwick demonstrates how the European/West's old approach to a rule based structure for sport makes no sense to those entering from the East - and suggests why UEFA will have to change it's FFP approach

https://www.policyforum.net/deals-not-r ... -new-game/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: Football's Magic Money Tree

Post by Chester Perry » Tue Mar 26, 2019 10:35 am

@KeiranMaguirre asks why Championship football is such a mess - then suggests that combined losses of £1/7bn in the last 5 seasons (with Leeds, Derby, Sunderland, Brentford, Fulham and Swansea still to report on last year) may well be the answer. Add to that the fact that combined revenue for the period is slightly less than combined wages - oh the price of hope

https://twitter.com/KieranMaguire/statu ... 2616569857" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

the other day on a Sheff Utd financial podcast he suggested that Championship clubs with no parachute payments, no benefactor/sugar daddy and attendances below 20k were likely to bounce between there and League one as the difference in Matchday and commercial income was so different with those clubs with larger fanbases.

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Re: Football's Magic Money Tree

Post by Chester Perry » Tue Mar 26, 2019 10:39 am

After the recent outcry on this board about the suitability of the current facilities on the Turf - this might get the juices flowing - Stadiums of the future - from the Guardian - when actually they are talking about the here and now as Spurs ground is now open for business and seeking to take business from all the local pubs and clubs in the community

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2017/ ... experience" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

We play at a "ground" and I love that - though even the club call it a stadium now
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Re: Football's Magic Money Tree

Post by Chester Perry » Tue Mar 26, 2019 10:43 am

For those who want to further investigate the Stadium of tomorrow notion - here is a little more to digest

https://populous.com/populous-national- ... m-tomorrow" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

https://www.wired.com/2015/11/the-futur ... um-at-all/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


Even the Americans understand why it is important not to move out-of-town when you build a new football ground

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2019/ ... ls-stadium" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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