Fixed penalty notice for littering

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Alanstevensonsgloves
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Re: Fixed penalty notice for littering

Post by Alanstevensonsgloves » Wed Oct 23, 2019 9:08 pm

Hear hear Ian.

We need to stamp out people throwing away cigarette butts.

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Re: Fixed penalty notice for littering

Post by Burnley Ace » Wed Oct 23, 2019 9:16 pm

clarethomer wrote:lots of complaints on social media - this may prove useful

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.u ... dance1.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

page 11 refers to the pic i posted
That’s accidental littering, completely different to throwing down a cigarette etc. How often have you taken something out of your pocket and completely unbeknownst to you some litter has also fallen out???

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Re: Fixed penalty notice for littering

Post by Burnley Ace » Wed Oct 23, 2019 9:20 pm

Leisure wrote:Same question as my previous post. But if your refuse to give your details what can they do about that and how will they know who you are?
They can call the police, who will attend, and give you a last opportunity. It’s a criminal offence and you can be arrested and taken to a police station. They have access to the DVLA and other database info.

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Re: Fixed penalty notice for littering

Post by Burnley Ace » Wed Oct 23, 2019 9:22 pm

conyoviejo wrote:Agree,but these guys in Colne are watching people who accidentally drop something then still fining them. Surely if they have watched them,they know it was accidental ,but still harass them..
How many times have you accidentally dropped something? There is a difference between doing something accidentally and doing something without thinking about it.

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Re: Fixed penalty notice for littering

Post by clarethomer » Wed Oct 23, 2019 10:26 pm

Burnley Ace wrote:That’s accidental littering, completely different to throwing down a cigarette etc. How often have you taken something out of your pocket and completely unbeknownst to you some litter has also fallen out???
I know that disposing of a cigarette isn't accidental and I was merely providing the policy/guidance/rules that sit behind these enforcement officers for people that have been on the end of an enforcement fpn.

There are a number of points in there which for me would raise question still in how they are operating.

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Re: Fixed penalty notice for littering

Post by Devils_Advocate » Wed Oct 23, 2019 10:53 pm

Burnley Ace wrote: How often have you taken something out of your pocket and completely unbeknownst to you some litter has also fallen out???
Never, I dont walk around with trash stuffed in my pockets. If I have some rubbish it goes in a bin and if there's no bin around it gets chucked on the floor. Im also not stupid enough to do it with the litter police watching me.

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Re: Fixed penalty notice for littering

Post by Claretpants » Wed Oct 23, 2019 11:11 pm

Down in North Wales we had a similar clamp down on litter dropping.The firm employed by the local council were based in Liverpool and they took 80% of the fine payment with the council receiving 20%.Mass complaints to the council followed with similar accidental litter dropping (bus tickets dropped out of pockets) and people stubbing fags and leaving on top of a bin for fear of setting bin on fire fined.Mainly smokers were followed around town centre in hope they would drop on the floor.After these complaints the council terminated the companies contract and are now reviewing their own policing.I do know of people who were approached and asked for their details and they carried on walking and entered local supermarket etc and avoid any action.I do agree with stamping down on litter like chewing gum/fag ends etc but given teenagers just dropping empty cans etc who cannot be approached it seems the easy target is the smokers who don't have readily available 'cigarette bins' and fines have been issued to people dropping butts down a grate.

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Re: Fixed penalty notice for littering

Post by Jakubclaret » Wed Oct 23, 2019 11:34 pm

Devils_Advocate wrote:Never, I dont walk around with trash stuffed in my pockets. If I have some rubbish it goes in a bin and if there's no bin around it gets chucked on the floor. Im also not stupid enough to do it with the litter police watching me.
Not everybody is the same though, some people genuinely need to cram there pockets with some essential items, inhalers, a bunch of keys, mobile phone, the list goes on, the stitching will eventually split & when people are moving about in a fast paced society, the litter police are watching & not even making it obvious they are there & more & more people are getting caught out, wearing cargo trousers helps with the deep multiple pockets.

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Re: Fixed penalty notice for littering

Post by Devils_Advocate » Wed Oct 23, 2019 11:39 pm

Jakubclaret wrote:Not everybody is the same though, some people genuinely need to cram there pockets with some essential items, inhalers, a bunch of keys, mobile phone, the list goes on, the stitching will eventually split & when people are moving about in a fast paced society, the litter police are watching & not even making it obvious they are there & more & more people are getting caught out, wearing cargo trousers helps with the deep multiple pockets.
Firstly inhalers, phones and keys aren't litter and im pretty sure if someone sees you drop them they either pick them up for you or rob them

Secondly anyone wearing cargo pants should be fined anyway regardless of whether they drop any litter
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Re: Fixed penalty notice for littering

Post by Jakubclaret » Wed Oct 23, 2019 11:47 pm

Devils_Advocate wrote:Firstly inhalers, phones and keys aren't litter and im pretty sure if someone sees you drop them they either pick them up for you or rob them

Secondly anyone wearing cargo pants should be fined anyway whether or not they drop any litter
Yes that's true, but the items occupy space in the pockets, people don't tend to self consciously prevent themselves from putting other items in the same pockets, you end up with bulging pockets, you go into a shop to buy a single can/bottle of pop or anything really, you don't intend on drinking it straightaway or any other item you don't intend on using it straightaway, it's automatic you don't even think about it, it goes in the pocket & before you suggest a bag I'm talking about single or duo purchases you wouldn't use a bag.

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Re: Fixed penalty notice for littering

Post by dsr » Wed Oct 23, 2019 11:52 pm

Leisure wrote:Same question as my previous post. But if your refuse to give your details what can they do about that and how will they know who you are?
If you refuse to give them your name and address then it is an automatic criminal offence (though it shouldn't be) and they have your picture from recording the conversation. It may be unlikely that they ever catch up with you, but they might - he might easily see you getting into a car, for example, or you might even get caught by face recognition software - and it isn't worth the risk.

Even so trivial an offence as this might affect future prospects - for example, would you need to declare it on a US ESTA application?

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Re: Fixed penalty notice for littering

Post by IanMcL » Thu Oct 24, 2019 12:44 am

Chewing gum is the worst litter.
It costs thousands to remove the substance and the mark it leaves.

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Re: Fixed penalty notice for littering

Post by Jakubclaret » Thu Oct 24, 2019 12:49 am

IanMcL wrote:Chewing gum is the worst litter.
It costs thousands to remove the substance and the mark it leaves.
It does, especially with people treading on it continuously, I once watched a programme they had to power wash the stuff off & then it leaves a stain, horrible stuff, I remember as kids at school if you got the stuff in your hair you had to cut the area where it was.

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Re: Fixed penalty notice for littering

Post by IanMcL » Thu Oct 24, 2019 12:51 am

That's it JacubC.

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Re: Fixed penalty notice for littering

Post by mapinchina » Thu Oct 24, 2019 1:06 am

I returned to Burnley, briefly, this year and was walking along Casterton Ave., smoking a cigarette, which I disposed of in a roadside grate.
All of sudden I was pounced upon by "someone" wearing a body cam and accused of "littering" and fined.
I refuted this and appealed.
I was told that "there is an ashtray / bin at the nearest petrol station where you were".....mmmm, good idea, walk onto a petrol station forecourt with a lit cigarrete !!!!

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Re: Fixed penalty notice for littering

Post by If it be your will » Thu Oct 24, 2019 1:27 am

dsr wrote:If you refuse to give them your name and address then it is an automatic criminal offence (though it shouldn't be) and they have your picture from recording the conversation. It may be unlikely that they ever catch up with you, but they might - he might easily see you getting into a car, for example, or you might even get caught by face recognition software - and it isn't worth the risk.

Even so trivial an offence as this might affect future prospects - for example, would you need to declare it on a US ESTA application?
As I understand it, paying the FPN is discharging your criminal liability, and not an admission of guilt. Legally, you are not guilty (but not necessarily 'not-guilty') of an offence if you pay up.

I, too, find it absolutely shocking that it is an offence to refuse to give details, considering they might have no evidence whatsoever. In nearly all cases, you don't even have to do this for the police. Looking further, it looks like this aspect is probably incompatible with human rights law, though. What is required is for someone to be issued with a FPN, refuse to give details, let it go all the way to the high court, have the conviction quashed on human rights grounds, then have the law repealed.

(You're a bit of a Tory, aren't you, dsr? I've always admired the libertarian sections of the right-wing - defending the principle that you are a free person, accountable to no-one, unless there is compelling reason to believe you have broken the law. This wing on the right seems to have completely disappeared, unfortunately. What happened to them?)

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Re: Fixed penalty notice for littering

Post by Burnley Ace » Thu Oct 24, 2019 7:31 am

If it be your will wrote:
I, too, find it absolutely shocking that it is an offence to refuse to give details, considering they might have no evidence whatsoever. In nearly all cases, you don't even have to do this for the police. Looking further, it looks like this aspect is probably incompatible with human rights law, though. What is required is for someone to be issued with a FPN, refuse to give details, let it go all the way to the high court, have the conviction quashed on human rights grounds, then have the law repealed.

(You're a bit of a Tory, aren't you, dsr? I've always admired the libertarian sections of the right-wing - defending the principle that you are a free person, accountable to no-one, unless there is compelling reason to believe you have broken the law. This wing on the right seems to have completely disappeared, unfortunately. What happened to them?)
Really? Which bit of “human rights” is it incompatible with? Do you not think some organisations, like Liberty for example, or some young “human rights” lawyer might have thought about it? No, leave it to a bloke whose just come in from the pub!!

https://www.lawteacher.net/free-law-ess ... essays.php" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
S24(5)(a) PACE - that’s what happens if you don’t tell the police

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Re: Fixed penalty notice for littering

Post by Burnley Ace » Thu Oct 24, 2019 7:34 am

https://www.keepbritaintidy.org/local-a ... binthebutt" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

You selfish *******!! Think of the seals :-(
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Re: Fixed penalty notice for littering

Post by Hipper » Thu Oct 24, 2019 11:11 am

[quote="If it be your will"]I, too, find it absolutely shocking that it is an offence to refuse to give details, considering they might have no evidence whatsoever. In nearly all cases, you don't even have to do this for the police[quote]

Is that true regarding the police. Things may have changed then.

In the 1970s I had my name taken on two different occasions by the police for what I thought was no good reason. If I refused they'd take me down the station.

One of the incidents was after the Lincoln - Burnley midweek cup match. We (four London Clarets) got the train back to Newark but it was two hours before the London train departed so we went looking for a restaurant. There was a young copper on the other side of the road so I went over to ask him. He came across and took all our names saying that it was unusual for a group of people to be around Newark this late at night - 10pm!!! He was right though - there was no-one else about. Mind you, perhaps we were a suspicious looking group because when we went into the restaurant they hid us in a corner and someone alerted the manager who came down to give us the once over.

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Re: Fixed penalty notice for littering

Post by Suratclaret » Thu Oct 24, 2019 11:51 am

The litter police would have a field day in my part of the world...they would be millionaires within a week.
I've mixed feelings about a fixed penalty notices for littering but there should be a fixed death penalty for spitting.

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Re: Fixed penalty notice for littering

Post by thomaspaine » Thu Oct 24, 2019 12:41 pm

Devils_Advocate wrote:Never, I dont walk around with trash stuffed in my pockets. If I have some rubbish it goes in a bin and if there's no bin around it gets chucked on the floor. Im also not stupid enough to do it with the litter police watching me.
But you are stupid enough to throw it on the floor 'if there's no bin around' and then admit to doing it.

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Re: Fixed penalty notice for littering

Post by duncandisorderly » Thu Oct 24, 2019 12:42 pm

You've caught one, DA.
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Re: Fixed penalty notice for littering

Post by If it be your will » Thu Oct 24, 2019 1:00 pm

Burnley Ace wrote:Really? Which bit of “human rights” is it incompatible with? Do you not think some organisations, like Liberty for example, or some young “human rights” lawyer might have thought about it? No, leave it to a bloke whose just come in from the pub!!

https://www.lawteacher.net/free-law-ess ... essays.php" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
S24(5)(a) PACE - that’s what happens if you don’t tell the police
Of course they have. After 30s on google:

https://greenandblackcross.org/guides/w ... y-details/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
https://freedomnews.org.uk/do-you-have- ... address-2/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
https://www.studyinternational.com/news ... uk-police/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The police do an important job. They should be helped where possible. But if you consider you are being unfairly victimised, you do have options. Thankfully.

Edit - Here's section 24 in full https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1984/60/section/24" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Before you can be arrested for refusing to account (under (5)(a)), they must first ascertain the underlying reason for the arrest under (1),(2), or (3)
Last edited by If it be your will on Thu Oct 24, 2019 1:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Fixed penalty notice for littering

Post by If it be your will » Thu Oct 24, 2019 1:06 pm

[quote="Hipper"][/quote]
Different circumstances are different, but refusing to give your details to the police is not (usually) a criminal act. They cannot arrest you for this alone (in most circumstances), they have to have a better reason than this. I happen to think this is a good thing, I expect others don't, I don't know.

This makes it all the more astonishing that it is an offence to refuse to account for yourself to a hired litter enforcer.
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Re: Fixed penalty notice for littering

Post by Firthy » Thu Oct 24, 2019 1:39 pm

I'd like to know what the outcome is. I hope Fenwick updates us.

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Re: Fixed penalty notice for littering

Post by Fenwick » Thu Oct 24, 2019 1:48 pm

I've complained to the enforcement company. No joy ( suprise !) Given until December to pay ( not happening ! ) I will see them at the magistrates court
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Re: Fixed penalty notice for littering

Post by If it be your will » Thu Oct 24, 2019 2:00 pm

Fenwick wrote:I've complained to the enforcement company. No joy ( suprise !) Given until December to pay ( not happening ! ) I will see them at the magistrates court
I wish you all the luck in the world - not that you should even need luck. Let us know.

I expect you don't much care what I think either way, but if you do go through with it, I for one will be very impressed.
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Re: Fixed penalty notice for littering

Post by Burnley Ace » Thu Oct 24, 2019 2:19 pm

If it be your will wrote:Of course they have. After 30s on google:

https://greenandblackcross.org/guides/w ... y-details/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
https://freedomnews.org.uk/do-you-have- ... address-2/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
https://www.studyinternational.com/news ... uk-police/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The police do an important job. They should be helped where possible. But if you consider you are being unfairly victimised, you do have options. Thankfully.

Edit - Here's section 24 in full https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1984/60/section/24" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Before you can be arrested for refusing to account (under (5)(a)), they must first ascertain the underlying reason for the arrest under (1),(2), or (3)
You seem to have confused the powers to obtain personal details under stop and search and powers under s24 PACE.

The arrest would be under s24(2) the reason being s24(5)(a) and (b). If the litter officer asks for details in front of the officer then the s88 offence is made out so their could also be an arrest under s24(3)

There is also s24 (5)(e) as well

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Re: Fixed penalty notice for littering

Post by If it be your will » Thu Oct 24, 2019 3:01 pm

Burnley Ace wrote:You seem to have confused the powers to obtain personal details under stop and search and powers under s24 PACE.

The arrest would be under s24(2) the reason being s24(5)(a) and (b). If the litter officer asks for details in front of the officer then the s88 offence is made out so their could also be an arrest under s24(3)

There is also s24 (5)(e) as well
Eh? I thought it was you that brought up s24 to argue that it is an offence to simply refuse to give your details to the police. I said that wasn't so.

So yes, I am a little confused as to exactly what your point is now.

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Re: Fixed penalty notice for littering

Post by IanMcL » Thu Oct 24, 2019 3:24 pm

mapinchina wrote:I returned to Burnley, briefly, this year and was walking along Casterton Ave., smoking a cigarette, which I disposed of in a roadside grate.
All of sudden I was pounced upon by "someone" wearing a body cam and accused of "littering" and fined.
I refuted this and appealed.
I was told that "there is an ashtray / bin at the nearest petrol station where you were".....mmmm, good idea, walk onto a petrol station forecourt with a lit cigarrete !!!!
You mean you clogged the drain?

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Re: Fixed penalty notice for littering

Post by Burnley Ace » Thu Oct 24, 2019 4:04 pm

If it be your will wrote:Eh? I thought it was you that brought up s24 to argue that it is an offence to simply refuse to give your details to the police. I said that wasn't so.

So yes, I am a little confused as to exactly what your point is now.
This is a thread about littering. S88 EPA 90 makes it an offence not to give your details when required to do so. That’s a criminal offence and if necessary the police can arrest you to ascertain them under s24 PACE.

You posted all these links to stop and search which has nothing to do with littering and refusing to give your details.

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Re: Fixed penalty notice for littering

Post by Burnley Ace » Thu Oct 24, 2019 4:08 pm

mapinchina wrote:I returned to Burnley, briefly, this year and was walking along Casterton Ave., smoking a cigarette, which I disposed of in a roadside grate.
All of sudden I was pounced upon by "someone" wearing a body cam and accused of "littering" and fined.
I refuted this and appealed.
I was told that "there is an ashtray / bin at the nearest petrol station where you were".....mmmm, good idea, walk onto a petrol station forecourt with a lit cigarrete !!!!
Cig butts - single use plastic that takes 10 years to decompose. They are the biggest marine contaminate - 4.5 trillion are littered each year.

Google - cigarette butts in the ocean (and just think of the seals!!!)

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Re: Fixed penalty notice for littering

Post by If it be your will » Thu Oct 24, 2019 4:17 pm

Burnley Ace wrote:This is a thread about littering. S88 EPA 90 makes it an offence not to give your details when required to do so. That’s a criminal offence and if necessary the police can arrest you to ascertain them under s24 PACE.

You posted all these links to stop and search which has nothing to do with littering and refusing to give your details.
Okay, just to reiterate what my point was:

If I'm sat in a park reading a book minding my own business and a constable says "Tell me your name and address" and I say "No", I have not committed an offence. (Hence my links.)

If in the same circumstances a litter enforcer says "Tell me your name and address" and I say "No", I have committed an offence, and that this contrast seems an extraordinary state of affairs.

I honestly can't tell whether you have contradicted this point or not.

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Re: Fixed penalty notice for littering

Post by Firthy » Thu Oct 24, 2019 6:11 pm

Fenwick wrote:I've complained to the enforcement company. No joy ( suprise !) Given until December to pay ( not happening ! ) I will see them at the magistrates court
Totally agree with your stance and even if the court decision went against me I would still feel inclined not to pay unless they had categoric proof like a video or the fag butt with dna on it. I guess it's easy to say until you're given 7 days imprisonment for non payment.

I have total respect for your decision and will watch this with interest.

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Re: Fixed penalty notice for littering

Post by Dark Cloud » Thu Oct 24, 2019 6:19 pm

Burnley Ace wrote:Cig butts - single use plastic that takes 10 years to decompose. They are the biggest marine contaminate - 4.5 trillion are littered each year.

Google - cigarette butts in the ocean (and just think of the seals!!!)
Apparently the seals are all vaping these days. It's all the rage!! (But definitely looks camp, even on seals!)

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Re: Fixed penalty notice for littering

Post by Burnley Ace » Thu Oct 24, 2019 7:49 pm

If it be your will wrote:Okay, just to reiterate what my point was:

If I'm sat in a park reading a book minding my own business and a constable says "Tell me your name and address" and I say "No", I have not committed an offence. (Hence my links.)

If in the same circumstances a litter enforcer says "Tell me your name and address" and I say "No", I have committed an offence, and that this contrast seems an extraordinary state of affairs.

I honestly can't tell whether you have contradicted this point or not.
The litter officer has to have reasonable belief, same as the police officer. Without evidence supporting reasonable belief you may have a claim for false arrest, if they have it, you won’t.

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Re: Fixed penalty notice for littering

Post by aggi » Thu Oct 24, 2019 11:53 pm

Fenwick wrote:I've complained to the enforcement company. No joy ( suprise !) Given until December to pay ( not happening ! ) I will see them at the magistrates court
If you want to go a bit extreme then go and have a look around where you were when accused of dropping the butt and see if there is any CCTV covering it. Either council ones or ones in shops, offices, etc.

If you see any then make a subject access request to the CCTV owner for the footage.
https://www.gov.uk/request-cctv-footage-of-yourself" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
This may provide video evidence to support your version of events.

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Re: Fixed penalty notice for littering

Post by If it be your will » Fri Oct 25, 2019 12:07 am

We're fast approaching the point where we all routinely wear body cams, aren't we?

(What have we done?)

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Re: Fixed penalty notice for littering

Post by Dazzler » Fri Oct 25, 2019 12:20 am

ClaretAndJew wrote:There's people on the Greenway walking path in Padiham that wander around with binoculars trying to spot people not picking up their dog ****.

It's a good thing to do but it's just comical that it's all so serious like they are spying on a drug lord or something.
It is serious stuff,especially when one trods in dog shite on their own doorstep in brand new £200 trainers.

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Re: Fixed penalty notice for littering

Post by No Ney Never » Fri Oct 25, 2019 1:07 am

Dazzler wrote:It is serious stuff,especially when one trods in dog shite on their own doorstep in brand new £200 trainers.
I don't know what's worse, standing in dog shite or paying £200 for a pair of trainers. :D
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tim_noone
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Re: Fixed penalty notice for littering

Post by tim_noone » Fri Oct 25, 2019 9:33 am

No Ney Never wrote:I don't know what's worse, standing in dog shite or paying £200 for a pair of trainers. :D
Dog Sh!t wins It...some poor bugger must have gone ankle deep on the pile I saw on the colne high st....tbh you'd have thought the shop owner would have swilled it away.What a Mess!!

FulledgeClaret
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Re: Fixed penalty notice for littering

Post by FulledgeClaret » Fri Oct 25, 2019 3:03 pm

surely to warrant a court appearance they should have bodycam footage or other proof of said offence if not its just one persons word against another and I can't see any judge being happy to rule on anything if its just a he says she says case, they can't prove you did and you can't prove you didn't your innocent until proven guilty so without that proof how can they take you to court and expect to win.

Burnley Ace
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Re: Fixed penalty notice for littering

Post by Burnley Ace » Fri Oct 25, 2019 9:24 pm

FulledgeClaret wrote:surely to warrant a court appearance they should have bodycam footage or other proof of said offence if not its just one persons word against another and I can't see any judge being happy to rule on anything if its just a he says she says case, they can't prove you did and you can't prove you didn't your innocent until proven guilty so without that proof how can they take you to court and expect to win.
If I was walking down the street and saw you committing a crime would you expect to get away with it because I didn’t video it. Should store detectives have to video everything?

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Re: Fixed penalty notice for littering

Post by Firthy » Fri Oct 25, 2019 9:28 pm

Burnley Ace wrote:If I was walking down the street and saw you committing a crime would you expect to get away with it because I didn’t video it. Should store detectives have to video everything?
But the OP didn't do it so yes they need video evidence to prove it.

Dark Cloud
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Re: Fixed penalty notice for littering

Post by Dark Cloud » Fri Oct 25, 2019 10:32 pm

If it be your will wrote:We're fast approaching the point where we all routinely wear body cams, aren't we?

(What have we done?)
Could be a giggle when having "an early night" with the Mrs!! :D

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Re: Fixed penalty notice for littering

Post by dsr » Fri Oct 25, 2019 10:45 pm

Burnley Ace wrote:If I was walking down the street and saw you committing a crime would you expect to get away with it because I didn’t video it. Should store detectives have to video everything?
If a store detective said that he saw you stealing a TV, would you expect to be convicted on his word alone? You wouldn't expect him to produce the TV in further evidence, for example?

In general, if I go to the police and say "Burnley Ace beats his wife", you would not be convicted unless I could produce some other evidence. For one thing, I would have to prove you had a wife. For another, that she has been beaten. You couldn't be convicted on just my word. If it's one layman's word against another, there has to be reasonable doubt.

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Re: Fixed penalty notice for littering

Post by Burnley Ace » Fri Oct 25, 2019 10:48 pm

Firthy wrote:But the OP didn't do it so yes they need video evidence to prove it.
But the enforcement officer said he saw him do it. The Magistrates will hear the evidence and decide.

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Re: Fixed penalty notice for littering

Post by Burnley Ace » Fri Oct 25, 2019 10:51 pm

dsr wrote:If a store detective said that he saw you stealing a TV, would you expect to be convicted on his word alone? You wouldn't expect him to produce the TV in further evidence, for example?

In general, if I go to the police and say "Burnley Ace beats his wife", you would not be convicted unless I could produce some other evidence. For one thing, I would have to prove you had a wife. For another, that she has been beaten. You couldn't be convicted on just my word. If it's one layman's word against another, there has to be reasonable doubt.
If you went to the police and said “I saw Burnley Ace go into my back yard and take my bike” would you espect the police to say “if you haven’t got it on video there is nothing we can do”. How do you think Courts worked before video cameras were invented?

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Re: Fixed penalty notice for littering

Post by dsr » Fri Oct 25, 2019 11:08 pm

Burnley Ace wrote:If you went to the police and said “I saw Burnley Ace go into my back yard and take my bike” would you espect the police to say “if you haven’t got it on video there is nothing we can do”. How do you think Courts worked before video cameras were invented?
Actually I would expect the police to do that, because they aren't going to go after bike thieves nowadays. But this question is about the court, and if one man says "he committed an offence" and the other says "no I didn't" and provides a valid reason why the other bloke might have been wrong, then the accused won't be found "guilty beyond reasonable doubt". Or shouldn't be.

Firthy
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Re: Fixed penalty notice for littering

Post by Firthy » Fri Oct 25, 2019 11:11 pm

Burnley Ace wrote:But the enforcement officer said he saw him do it. The Magistrates will hear the evidence and decide.
Stalemate. They can't convict without evidence and take the word of one person over another even if he is an official. You could stitch anybody up if that was the case and that would be corrupt.

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