Fixed penalty notice for littering
-
- Posts: 1264
- Joined: Sat Jan 23, 2016 12:40 am
- Been Liked: 342 times
- Has Liked: 399 times
- Location: From Accy, Exiled in Surrey
Re: Fixed penalty notice for littering
Hear hear Ian.
We need to stamp out people throwing away cigarette butts.
We need to stamp out people throwing away cigarette butts.
-
- Posts: 3525
- Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 6:03 pm
- Been Liked: 651 times
- Has Liked: 2879 times
Re: Fixed penalty notice for littering
That’s accidental littering, completely different to throwing down a cigarette etc. How often have you taken something out of your pocket and completely unbeknownst to you some litter has also fallen out???clarethomer wrote:lots of complaints on social media - this may prove useful
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.u ... dance1.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
page 11 refers to the pic i posted
-
- Posts: 3525
- Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 6:03 pm
- Been Liked: 651 times
- Has Liked: 2879 times
Re: Fixed penalty notice for littering
They can call the police, who will attend, and give you a last opportunity. It’s a criminal offence and you can be arrested and taken to a police station. They have access to the DVLA and other database info.Leisure wrote:Same question as my previous post. But if your refuse to give your details what can they do about that and how will they know who you are?
-
- Posts: 3525
- Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 6:03 pm
- Been Liked: 651 times
- Has Liked: 2879 times
Re: Fixed penalty notice for littering
How many times have you accidentally dropped something? There is a difference between doing something accidentally and doing something without thinking about it.conyoviejo wrote:Agree,but these guys in Colne are watching people who accidentally drop something then still fining them. Surely if they have watched them,they know it was accidental ,but still harass them..
-
- Posts: 3104
- Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 8:24 am
- Been Liked: 942 times
- Has Liked: 410 times
Re: Fixed penalty notice for littering
I know that disposing of a cigarette isn't accidental and I was merely providing the policy/guidance/rules that sit behind these enforcement officers for people that have been on the end of an enforcement fpn.Burnley Ace wrote:That’s accidental littering, completely different to throwing down a cigarette etc. How often have you taken something out of your pocket and completely unbeknownst to you some litter has also fallen out???
There are a number of points in there which for me would raise question still in how they are operating.
-
- Posts: 12345
- Joined: Sun Oct 30, 2016 2:43 pm
- Been Liked: 5202 times
- Has Liked: 920 times
Re: Fixed penalty notice for littering
Never, I dont walk around with trash stuffed in my pockets. If I have some rubbish it goes in a bin and if there's no bin around it gets chucked on the floor. Im also not stupid enough to do it with the litter police watching me.Burnley Ace wrote: How often have you taken something out of your pocket and completely unbeknownst to you some litter has also fallen out???
-
- Posts: 233
- Joined: Tue May 17, 2016 10:38 pm
- Been Liked: 75 times
- Has Liked: 27 times
Re: Fixed penalty notice for littering
Down in North Wales we had a similar clamp down on litter dropping.The firm employed by the local council were based in Liverpool and they took 80% of the fine payment with the council receiving 20%.Mass complaints to the council followed with similar accidental litter dropping (bus tickets dropped out of pockets) and people stubbing fags and leaving on top of a bin for fear of setting bin on fire fined.Mainly smokers were followed around town centre in hope they would drop on the floor.After these complaints the council terminated the companies contract and are now reviewing their own policing.I do know of people who were approached and asked for their details and they carried on walking and entered local supermarket etc and avoid any action.I do agree with stamping down on litter like chewing gum/fag ends etc but given teenagers just dropping empty cans etc who cannot be approached it seems the easy target is the smokers who don't have readily available 'cigarette bins' and fines have been issued to people dropping butts down a grate.
-
- Posts: 9434
- Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2016 10:47 pm
- Been Liked: 1180 times
- Has Liked: 778 times
Re: Fixed penalty notice for littering
Not everybody is the same though, some people genuinely need to cram there pockets with some essential items, inhalers, a bunch of keys, mobile phone, the list goes on, the stitching will eventually split & when people are moving about in a fast paced society, the litter police are watching & not even making it obvious they are there & more & more people are getting caught out, wearing cargo trousers helps with the deep multiple pockets.Devils_Advocate wrote:Never, I dont walk around with trash stuffed in my pockets. If I have some rubbish it goes in a bin and if there's no bin around it gets chucked on the floor. Im also not stupid enough to do it with the litter police watching me.
-
- Posts: 12345
- Joined: Sun Oct 30, 2016 2:43 pm
- Been Liked: 5202 times
- Has Liked: 920 times
Re: Fixed penalty notice for littering
Firstly inhalers, phones and keys aren't litter and im pretty sure if someone sees you drop them they either pick them up for you or rob themJakubclaret wrote:Not everybody is the same though, some people genuinely need to cram there pockets with some essential items, inhalers, a bunch of keys, mobile phone, the list goes on, the stitching will eventually split & when people are moving about in a fast paced society, the litter police are watching & not even making it obvious they are there & more & more people are getting caught out, wearing cargo trousers helps with the deep multiple pockets.
Secondly anyone wearing cargo pants should be fined anyway regardless of whether they drop any litter
This user liked this post: Burnley Ace
-
- Posts: 9434
- Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2016 10:47 pm
- Been Liked: 1180 times
- Has Liked: 778 times
Re: Fixed penalty notice for littering
Yes that's true, but the items occupy space in the pockets, people don't tend to self consciously prevent themselves from putting other items in the same pockets, you end up with bulging pockets, you go into a shop to buy a single can/bottle of pop or anything really, you don't intend on drinking it straightaway or any other item you don't intend on using it straightaway, it's automatic you don't even think about it, it goes in the pocket & before you suggest a bag I'm talking about single or duo purchases you wouldn't use a bag.Devils_Advocate wrote:Firstly inhalers, phones and keys aren't litter and im pretty sure if someone sees you drop them they either pick them up for you or rob them
Secondly anyone wearing cargo pants should be fined anyway whether or not they drop any litter
Re: Fixed penalty notice for littering
If you refuse to give them your name and address then it is an automatic criminal offence (though it shouldn't be) and they have your picture from recording the conversation. It may be unlikely that they ever catch up with you, but they might - he might easily see you getting into a car, for example, or you might even get caught by face recognition software - and it isn't worth the risk.Leisure wrote:Same question as my previous post. But if your refuse to give your details what can they do about that and how will they know who you are?
Even so trivial an offence as this might affect future prospects - for example, would you need to declare it on a US ESTA application?
Re: Fixed penalty notice for littering
Chewing gum is the worst litter.
It costs thousands to remove the substance and the mark it leaves.
It costs thousands to remove the substance and the mark it leaves.
-
- Posts: 9434
- Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2016 10:47 pm
- Been Liked: 1180 times
- Has Liked: 778 times
Re: Fixed penalty notice for littering
It does, especially with people treading on it continuously, I once watched a programme they had to power wash the stuff off & then it leaves a stain, horrible stuff, I remember as kids at school if you got the stuff in your hair you had to cut the area where it was.IanMcL wrote:Chewing gum is the worst litter.
It costs thousands to remove the substance and the mark it leaves.
Re: Fixed penalty notice for littering
That's it JacubC.
-
- Posts: 69
- Joined: Mon Jan 25, 2016 3:23 pm
- Been Liked: 11 times
- Has Liked: 11 times
Re: Fixed penalty notice for littering
I returned to Burnley, briefly, this year and was walking along Casterton Ave., smoking a cigarette, which I disposed of in a roadside grate.
All of sudden I was pounced upon by "someone" wearing a body cam and accused of "littering" and fined.
I refuted this and appealed.
I was told that "there is an ashtray / bin at the nearest petrol station where you were".....mmmm, good idea, walk onto a petrol station forecourt with a lit cigarrete !!!!
All of sudden I was pounced upon by "someone" wearing a body cam and accused of "littering" and fined.
I refuted this and appealed.
I was told that "there is an ashtray / bin at the nearest petrol station where you were".....mmmm, good idea, walk onto a petrol station forecourt with a lit cigarrete !!!!
-
- Posts: 2103
- Joined: Tue Apr 19, 2016 10:12 am
- Been Liked: 500 times
- Has Liked: 509 times
Re: Fixed penalty notice for littering
As I understand it, paying the FPN is discharging your criminal liability, and not an admission of guilt. Legally, you are not guilty (but not necessarily 'not-guilty') of an offence if you pay up.dsr wrote:If you refuse to give them your name and address then it is an automatic criminal offence (though it shouldn't be) and they have your picture from recording the conversation. It may be unlikely that they ever catch up with you, but they might - he might easily see you getting into a car, for example, or you might even get caught by face recognition software - and it isn't worth the risk.
Even so trivial an offence as this might affect future prospects - for example, would you need to declare it on a US ESTA application?
I, too, find it absolutely shocking that it is an offence to refuse to give details, considering they might have no evidence whatsoever. In nearly all cases, you don't even have to do this for the police. Looking further, it looks like this aspect is probably incompatible with human rights law, though. What is required is for someone to be issued with a FPN, refuse to give details, let it go all the way to the high court, have the conviction quashed on human rights grounds, then have the law repealed.
(You're a bit of a Tory, aren't you, dsr? I've always admired the libertarian sections of the right-wing - defending the principle that you are a free person, accountable to no-one, unless there is compelling reason to believe you have broken the law. This wing on the right seems to have completely disappeared, unfortunately. What happened to them?)
-
- Posts: 3525
- Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 6:03 pm
- Been Liked: 651 times
- Has Liked: 2879 times
Re: Fixed penalty notice for littering
Really? Which bit of “human rights” is it incompatible with? Do you not think some organisations, like Liberty for example, or some young “human rights” lawyer might have thought about it? No, leave it to a bloke whose just come in from the pub!!If it be your will wrote:
I, too, find it absolutely shocking that it is an offence to refuse to give details, considering they might have no evidence whatsoever. In nearly all cases, you don't even have to do this for the police. Looking further, it looks like this aspect is probably incompatible with human rights law, though. What is required is for someone to be issued with a FPN, refuse to give details, let it go all the way to the high court, have the conviction quashed on human rights grounds, then have the law repealed.
(You're a bit of a Tory, aren't you, dsr? I've always admired the libertarian sections of the right-wing - defending the principle that you are a free person, accountable to no-one, unless there is compelling reason to believe you have broken the law. This wing on the right seems to have completely disappeared, unfortunately. What happened to them?)
https://www.lawteacher.net/free-law-ess ... essays.php" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
S24(5)(a) PACE - that’s what happens if you don’t tell the police
-
- Posts: 3525
- Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 6:03 pm
- Been Liked: 651 times
- Has Liked: 2879 times
Re: Fixed penalty notice for littering
https://www.keepbritaintidy.org/local-a ... binthebutt" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
You selfish *******!! Think of the seals
You selfish *******!! Think of the seals
This user liked this post: Firthy
Re: Fixed penalty notice for littering
[quote="If it be your will"]I, too, find it absolutely shocking that it is an offence to refuse to give details, considering they might have no evidence whatsoever. In nearly all cases, you don't even have to do this for the police[quote]
Is that true regarding the police. Things may have changed then.
In the 1970s I had my name taken on two different occasions by the police for what I thought was no good reason. If I refused they'd take me down the station.
One of the incidents was after the Lincoln - Burnley midweek cup match. We (four London Clarets) got the train back to Newark but it was two hours before the London train departed so we went looking for a restaurant. There was a young copper on the other side of the road so I went over to ask him. He came across and took all our names saying that it was unusual for a group of people to be around Newark this late at night - 10pm!!! He was right though - there was no-one else about. Mind you, perhaps we were a suspicious looking group because when we went into the restaurant they hid us in a corner and someone alerted the manager who came down to give us the once over.
Is that true regarding the police. Things may have changed then.
In the 1970s I had my name taken on two different occasions by the police for what I thought was no good reason. If I refused they'd take me down the station.
One of the incidents was after the Lincoln - Burnley midweek cup match. We (four London Clarets) got the train back to Newark but it was two hours before the London train departed so we went looking for a restaurant. There was a young copper on the other side of the road so I went over to ask him. He came across and took all our names saying that it was unusual for a group of people to be around Newark this late at night - 10pm!!! He was right though - there was no-one else about. Mind you, perhaps we were a suspicious looking group because when we went into the restaurant they hid us in a corner and someone alerted the manager who came down to give us the once over.
-
- Posts: 1802
- Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 9:27 am
- Been Liked: 332 times
- Has Liked: 787 times
Re: Fixed penalty notice for littering
The litter police would have a field day in my part of the world...they would be millionaires within a week.
I've mixed feelings about a fixed penalty notices for littering but there should be a fixed death penalty for spitting.
I've mixed feelings about a fixed penalty notices for littering but there should be a fixed death penalty for spitting.
-
- Posts: 272
- Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 9:20 pm
- Been Liked: 83 times
- Has Liked: 361 times
Re: Fixed penalty notice for littering
But you are stupid enough to throw it on the floor 'if there's no bin around' and then admit to doing it.Devils_Advocate wrote:Never, I dont walk around with trash stuffed in my pockets. If I have some rubbish it goes in a bin and if there's no bin around it gets chucked on the floor. Im also not stupid enough to do it with the litter police watching me.
-
- Posts: 2443
- Joined: Wed Feb 17, 2016 8:58 pm
- Been Liked: 970 times
- Has Liked: 232 times
Re: Fixed penalty notice for littering
You've caught one, DA.
This user liked this post: Devils_Advocate
-
- Posts: 2103
- Joined: Tue Apr 19, 2016 10:12 am
- Been Liked: 500 times
- Has Liked: 509 times
Re: Fixed penalty notice for littering
Of course they have. After 30s on google:Burnley Ace wrote:Really? Which bit of “human rights” is it incompatible with? Do you not think some organisations, like Liberty for example, or some young “human rights” lawyer might have thought about it? No, leave it to a bloke whose just come in from the pub!!
https://www.lawteacher.net/free-law-ess ... essays.php" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
S24(5)(a) PACE - that’s what happens if you don’t tell the police
https://greenandblackcross.org/guides/w ... y-details/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
https://freedomnews.org.uk/do-you-have- ... address-2/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
https://www.studyinternational.com/news ... uk-police/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
The police do an important job. They should be helped where possible. But if you consider you are being unfairly victimised, you do have options. Thankfully.
Edit - Here's section 24 in full https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1984/60/section/24" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Before you can be arrested for refusing to account (under (5)(a)), they must first ascertain the underlying reason for the arrest under (1),(2), or (3)
Last edited by If it be your will on Thu Oct 24, 2019 1:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
-
- Posts: 2103
- Joined: Tue Apr 19, 2016 10:12 am
- Been Liked: 500 times
- Has Liked: 509 times
Re: Fixed penalty notice for littering
[quote="Hipper"][/quote]
Different circumstances are different, but refusing to give your details to the police is not (usually) a criminal act. They cannot arrest you for this alone (in most circumstances), they have to have a better reason than this. I happen to think this is a good thing, I expect others don't, I don't know.
This makes it all the more astonishing that it is an offence to refuse to account for yourself to a hired litter enforcer.
Different circumstances are different, but refusing to give your details to the police is not (usually) a criminal act. They cannot arrest you for this alone (in most circumstances), they have to have a better reason than this. I happen to think this is a good thing, I expect others don't, I don't know.
This makes it all the more astonishing that it is an offence to refuse to account for yourself to a hired litter enforcer.
These 2 users liked this post: dsr Hipper
Re: Fixed penalty notice for littering
I'd like to know what the outcome is. I hope Fenwick updates us.
Re: Fixed penalty notice for littering
I've complained to the enforcement company. No joy ( suprise !) Given until December to pay ( not happening ! ) I will see them at the magistrates court
These 2 users liked this post: If it be your will FactualFrank
-
- Posts: 2103
- Joined: Tue Apr 19, 2016 10:12 am
- Been Liked: 500 times
- Has Liked: 509 times
Re: Fixed penalty notice for littering
I wish you all the luck in the world - not that you should even need luck. Let us know.Fenwick wrote:I've complained to the enforcement company. No joy ( suprise !) Given until December to pay ( not happening ! ) I will see them at the magistrates court
I expect you don't much care what I think either way, but if you do go through with it, I for one will be very impressed.
This user liked this post: Fenwick
-
- Posts: 3525
- Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 6:03 pm
- Been Liked: 651 times
- Has Liked: 2879 times
Re: Fixed penalty notice for littering
You seem to have confused the powers to obtain personal details under stop and search and powers under s24 PACE.If it be your will wrote:Of course they have. After 30s on google:
https://greenandblackcross.org/guides/w ... y-details/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
https://freedomnews.org.uk/do-you-have- ... address-2/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
https://www.studyinternational.com/news ... uk-police/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
The police do an important job. They should be helped where possible. But if you consider you are being unfairly victimised, you do have options. Thankfully.
Edit - Here's section 24 in full https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1984/60/section/24" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Before you can be arrested for refusing to account (under (5)(a)), they must first ascertain the underlying reason for the arrest under (1),(2), or (3)
The arrest would be under s24(2) the reason being s24(5)(a) and (b). If the litter officer asks for details in front of the officer then the s88 offence is made out so their could also be an arrest under s24(3)
There is also s24 (5)(e) as well
-
- Posts: 2103
- Joined: Tue Apr 19, 2016 10:12 am
- Been Liked: 500 times
- Has Liked: 509 times
Re: Fixed penalty notice for littering
Eh? I thought it was you that brought up s24 to argue that it is an offence to simply refuse to give your details to the police. I said that wasn't so.Burnley Ace wrote:You seem to have confused the powers to obtain personal details under stop and search and powers under s24 PACE.
The arrest would be under s24(2) the reason being s24(5)(a) and (b). If the litter officer asks for details in front of the officer then the s88 offence is made out so their could also be an arrest under s24(3)
There is also s24 (5)(e) as well
So yes, I am a little confused as to exactly what your point is now.
Re: Fixed penalty notice for littering
You mean you clogged the drain?mapinchina wrote:I returned to Burnley, briefly, this year and was walking along Casterton Ave., smoking a cigarette, which I disposed of in a roadside grate.
All of sudden I was pounced upon by "someone" wearing a body cam and accused of "littering" and fined.
I refuted this and appealed.
I was told that "there is an ashtray / bin at the nearest petrol station where you were".....mmmm, good idea, walk onto a petrol station forecourt with a lit cigarrete !!!!
-
- Posts: 3525
- Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 6:03 pm
- Been Liked: 651 times
- Has Liked: 2879 times
Re: Fixed penalty notice for littering
This is a thread about littering. S88 EPA 90 makes it an offence not to give your details when required to do so. That’s a criminal offence and if necessary the police can arrest you to ascertain them under s24 PACE.If it be your will wrote:Eh? I thought it was you that brought up s24 to argue that it is an offence to simply refuse to give your details to the police. I said that wasn't so.
So yes, I am a little confused as to exactly what your point is now.
You posted all these links to stop and search which has nothing to do with littering and refusing to give your details.
-
- Posts: 3525
- Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 6:03 pm
- Been Liked: 651 times
- Has Liked: 2879 times
Re: Fixed penalty notice for littering
Cig butts - single use plastic that takes 10 years to decompose. They are the biggest marine contaminate - 4.5 trillion are littered each year.mapinchina wrote:I returned to Burnley, briefly, this year and was walking along Casterton Ave., smoking a cigarette, which I disposed of in a roadside grate.
All of sudden I was pounced upon by "someone" wearing a body cam and accused of "littering" and fined.
I refuted this and appealed.
I was told that "there is an ashtray / bin at the nearest petrol station where you were".....mmmm, good idea, walk onto a petrol station forecourt with a lit cigarrete !!!!
Google - cigarette butts in the ocean (and just think of the seals!!!)
-
- Posts: 2103
- Joined: Tue Apr 19, 2016 10:12 am
- Been Liked: 500 times
- Has Liked: 509 times
Re: Fixed penalty notice for littering
Okay, just to reiterate what my point was:Burnley Ace wrote:This is a thread about littering. S88 EPA 90 makes it an offence not to give your details when required to do so. That’s a criminal offence and if necessary the police can arrest you to ascertain them under s24 PACE.
You posted all these links to stop and search which has nothing to do with littering and refusing to give your details.
If I'm sat in a park reading a book minding my own business and a constable says "Tell me your name and address" and I say "No", I have not committed an offence. (Hence my links.)
If in the same circumstances a litter enforcer says "Tell me your name and address" and I say "No", I have committed an offence, and that this contrast seems an extraordinary state of affairs.
I honestly can't tell whether you have contradicted this point or not.
Re: Fixed penalty notice for littering
Totally agree with your stance and even if the court decision went against me I would still feel inclined not to pay unless they had categoric proof like a video or the fag butt with dna on it. I guess it's easy to say until you're given 7 days imprisonment for non payment.Fenwick wrote:I've complained to the enforcement company. No joy ( suprise !) Given until December to pay ( not happening ! ) I will see them at the magistrates court
I have total respect for your decision and will watch this with interest.
-
- Posts: 6586
- Joined: Sun Jan 24, 2016 9:03 am
- Been Liked: 1981 times
- Has Liked: 3299 times
Re: Fixed penalty notice for littering
Apparently the seals are all vaping these days. It's all the rage!! (But definitely looks camp, even on seals!)Burnley Ace wrote:Cig butts - single use plastic that takes 10 years to decompose. They are the biggest marine contaminate - 4.5 trillion are littered each year.
Google - cigarette butts in the ocean (and just think of the seals!!!)
-
- Posts: 3525
- Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 6:03 pm
- Been Liked: 651 times
- Has Liked: 2879 times
Re: Fixed penalty notice for littering
The litter officer has to have reasonable belief, same as the police officer. Without evidence supporting reasonable belief you may have a claim for false arrest, if they have it, you won’t.If it be your will wrote:Okay, just to reiterate what my point was:
If I'm sat in a park reading a book minding my own business and a constable says "Tell me your name and address" and I say "No", I have not committed an offence. (Hence my links.)
If in the same circumstances a litter enforcer says "Tell me your name and address" and I say "No", I have committed an offence, and that this contrast seems an extraordinary state of affairs.
I honestly can't tell whether you have contradicted this point or not.
Re: Fixed penalty notice for littering
If you want to go a bit extreme then go and have a look around where you were when accused of dropping the butt and see if there is any CCTV covering it. Either council ones or ones in shops, offices, etc.Fenwick wrote:I've complained to the enforcement company. No joy ( suprise !) Given until December to pay ( not happening ! ) I will see them at the magistrates court
If you see any then make a subject access request to the CCTV owner for the footage.
https://www.gov.uk/request-cctv-footage-of-yourself" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
This may provide video evidence to support your version of events.
-
- Posts: 2103
- Joined: Tue Apr 19, 2016 10:12 am
- Been Liked: 500 times
- Has Liked: 509 times
Re: Fixed penalty notice for littering
We're fast approaching the point where we all routinely wear body cams, aren't we?
(What have we done?)
(What have we done?)
Re: Fixed penalty notice for littering
It is serious stuff,especially when one trods in dog shite on their own doorstep in brand new £200 trainers.ClaretAndJew wrote:There's people on the Greenway walking path in Padiham that wander around with binoculars trying to spot people not picking up their dog ****.
It's a good thing to do but it's just comical that it's all so serious like they are spying on a drug lord or something.
-
- Posts: 2637
- Joined: Mon Jan 25, 2016 10:31 pm
- Been Liked: 894 times
- Has Liked: 328 times
Re: Fixed penalty notice for littering
I don't know what's worse, standing in dog shite or paying £200 for a pair of trainers.Dazzler wrote:It is serious stuff,especially when one trods in dog shite on their own doorstep in brand new £200 trainers.
This user liked this post: ClaretCliff
-
- Posts: 17108
- Joined: Wed Mar 29, 2017 8:12 pm
- Been Liked: 4384 times
- Has Liked: 15117 times
Re: Fixed penalty notice for littering
Dog Sh!t wins It...some poor bugger must have gone ankle deep on the pile I saw on the colne high st....tbh you'd have thought the shop owner would have swilled it away.What a Mess!!No Ney Never wrote:I don't know what's worse, standing in dog shite or paying £200 for a pair of trainers.
-
- Posts: 409
- Joined: Wed Jan 18, 2017 8:25 pm
- Been Liked: 132 times
- Has Liked: 84 times
Re: Fixed penalty notice for littering
surely to warrant a court appearance they should have bodycam footage or other proof of said offence if not its just one persons word against another and I can't see any judge being happy to rule on anything if its just a he says she says case, they can't prove you did and you can't prove you didn't your innocent until proven guilty so without that proof how can they take you to court and expect to win.
-
- Posts: 3525
- Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 6:03 pm
- Been Liked: 651 times
- Has Liked: 2879 times
Re: Fixed penalty notice for littering
If I was walking down the street and saw you committing a crime would you expect to get away with it because I didn’t video it. Should store detectives have to video everything?FulledgeClaret wrote:surely to warrant a court appearance they should have bodycam footage or other proof of said offence if not its just one persons word against another and I can't see any judge being happy to rule on anything if its just a he says she says case, they can't prove you did and you can't prove you didn't your innocent until proven guilty so without that proof how can they take you to court and expect to win.
Re: Fixed penalty notice for littering
But the OP didn't do it so yes they need video evidence to prove it.Burnley Ace wrote:If I was walking down the street and saw you committing a crime would you expect to get away with it because I didn’t video it. Should store detectives have to video everything?
-
- Posts: 6586
- Joined: Sun Jan 24, 2016 9:03 am
- Been Liked: 1981 times
- Has Liked: 3299 times
Re: Fixed penalty notice for littering
Could be a giggle when having "an early night" with the Mrs!!If it be your will wrote:We're fast approaching the point where we all routinely wear body cams, aren't we?
(What have we done?)
Re: Fixed penalty notice for littering
If a store detective said that he saw you stealing a TV, would you expect to be convicted on his word alone? You wouldn't expect him to produce the TV in further evidence, for example?Burnley Ace wrote:If I was walking down the street and saw you committing a crime would you expect to get away with it because I didn’t video it. Should store detectives have to video everything?
In general, if I go to the police and say "Burnley Ace beats his wife", you would not be convicted unless I could produce some other evidence. For one thing, I would have to prove you had a wife. For another, that she has been beaten. You couldn't be convicted on just my word. If it's one layman's word against another, there has to be reasonable doubt.
-
- Posts: 3525
- Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 6:03 pm
- Been Liked: 651 times
- Has Liked: 2879 times
Re: Fixed penalty notice for littering
But the enforcement officer said he saw him do it. The Magistrates will hear the evidence and decide.Firthy wrote:But the OP didn't do it so yes they need video evidence to prove it.
-
- Posts: 3525
- Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 6:03 pm
- Been Liked: 651 times
- Has Liked: 2879 times
Re: Fixed penalty notice for littering
If you went to the police and said “I saw Burnley Ace go into my back yard and take my bike” would you espect the police to say “if you haven’t got it on video there is nothing we can do”. How do you think Courts worked before video cameras were invented?dsr wrote:If a store detective said that he saw you stealing a TV, would you expect to be convicted on his word alone? You wouldn't expect him to produce the TV in further evidence, for example?
In general, if I go to the police and say "Burnley Ace beats his wife", you would not be convicted unless I could produce some other evidence. For one thing, I would have to prove you had a wife. For another, that she has been beaten. You couldn't be convicted on just my word. If it's one layman's word against another, there has to be reasonable doubt.
Re: Fixed penalty notice for littering
Actually I would expect the police to do that, because they aren't going to go after bike thieves nowadays. But this question is about the court, and if one man says "he committed an offence" and the other says "no I didn't" and provides a valid reason why the other bloke might have been wrong, then the accused won't be found "guilty beyond reasonable doubt". Or shouldn't be.Burnley Ace wrote:If you went to the police and said “I saw Burnley Ace go into my back yard and take my bike” would you espect the police to say “if you haven’t got it on video there is nothing we can do”. How do you think Courts worked before video cameras were invented?
Re: Fixed penalty notice for littering
Stalemate. They can't convict without evidence and take the word of one person over another even if he is an official. You could stitch anybody up if that was the case and that would be corrupt.Burnley Ace wrote:But the enforcement officer said he saw him do it. The Magistrates will hear the evidence and decide.