Completing the season

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NewClaret
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Re: Completing the season

Post by NewClaret » Thu Apr 30, 2020 2:43 pm

Spijed wrote:
Thu Apr 30, 2020 2:29 pm
Obviously we should never take undue risks, but there is also the unseen issues of depression and other mental issues where people have nothing to look forward to if they see sport as an important part of their lives.

You only have to see the dramatic rise in domestic abuse in the last few weeks.

There comes a point where people need to have something positive to look forward to otherwise life becomes just an existence. There will come a point where risks have to be taken, and therein lies the issue - when?
The point being missed by many here is that there are still millions of people getting up and going to work, using public transport, driving public transport, putting their lives at risk. Many, as we have seen, are in much higher risk categories than footballers.

We may never be at a point of zero risk with this disease. Flu still kills 17k a year. So if you are saying “don’t restart”, what specifically needs to be true for a restart?

Also agree with your point re: football being unique in entertainment terms - it is engrained into our culture in a way cinema, or theatre, or other sports are not. If getting football back on, in a way that mitigates risk as far as possible, helps people get through this lockdown... it should be done.
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dsr
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Re: Completing the season

Post by dsr » Thu Apr 30, 2020 2:44 pm

Firthy wrote:
Thu Apr 30, 2020 2:41 pm
Most of us wouldn't congregate outside a ground, we'd rather watch it on TV but that's exactly what happened in Italy when they tried playing behind closed doors so there's no guarantee it wouldn't happen here.
Are you saying that after all was said and done and lockdown gone on for weeks that people were still congregating outside grounds? Or was this just at the start of the period before people were really taking it seriously, and it can be expected that attitudes have changed?

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Re: Completing the season

Post by Chester Perry » Thu Apr 30, 2020 2:49 pm

I am with the guys from @theESK on this (I regularly link articles/podcasts from them on the MMT thread) - here is what they posted earlier this week

Little to gain, lots to lose
By the esk on April 27, 2020

At what point will the powers that be, those with a (financial) interest in the game wake up and realise that the vast majority of the population have no interest in an artificial crammed, behind closed doors, end to a season destroyed of relevance by a global pandemic? Football like so many other aspects of life has been impacted by the virus. It’s time to accept that this season is finished and focus on what are the conditions upon which football can return in some meaningful form for season 2020-21.

Custodians
At what point those that run the game, will they realise they are custodians? Custodians of a game dear to most of us. A game which despite having been ripped apart by financial behemoths with little or no thought for the spectating public is still played to full stadia of adoring fans. At a time of crisis, the role of a custodian is to protect, not add additional risk to our national game. Their role is just not about revenue protection, it is about taking the correct and sensible short term decisions to ensure that the game maintains the support of fans, the wider public, sponsors and broadcaster. Life approaching normality post Covid-19 is going to be hard enough for football, we don’t need to make ridiculous decisions now to compound matters even further.

Reward obscures risk
Football (in this case the Premier League) can survive the relatively short term financial hit of an incomplete season. It could in desperation, address the problem immediately by confronting its cost base. It cannot, however suffer a catastrophic hit to its reputation, relevance and possibly worse through an untimely dash for a dirty, seemingly cheap solution.

It ought, if has the appropriate management teams and the right relationships with sponsors and broadcasters be able to mitigate much of the potential losses.

They must start from the point that they have little to gain but a great deal to lose by forcing an end to the season. The problem is that in business as in life, reward or the potential for reward obscures risk.

The risks of starting football too early are lengthy and considerable

Health and safety
The first duty of an employer to their employees is health and safety. On what basis can football clubs ensure the health and safety of players, their management, coaching and medical staff, those involved in staging the game, and the security and stewarding teams

Then we have the health and safety of all the external agencies involved in running a game behind closed doors and broadcast publicly as a result.

Testing and potential use of medical resources
How is it possibly justifiable for football clubs to use testing resources and facilities when front line staff, doctors, nurses, domestic and porters, GPs, district nurses, care operators, key workers like social workers, bus drivers and supermarket employees do not have access?
There is no defence for football to waste a single resource that could be used by those charged with the responsibility of serving the nation and its public.

Additionally in the event of serious injury during a game, is it appropriate for any football club to (i) put their employees at risk and (ii) use already stretched medical resources?

Public response
How do we police the public response to matches being played behind closed doors? Why do we put the police and security personnel around any stadium staging a game at potential risk? How do we stop social gatherings, how do we stop the inevitable mass celebrations of a League title win or escape from relegation?

Why would we risk a change in public behaviour with all its consequences?

Why would we risk allowing the possible breakdown of public discipline vital in controlling Covid-19 before immunity is created through extensive vaccination? The potential consequences are huge.

The semblance of normality
The short term financial pressure and the potential of political pressure for “the semblance of normality” are not good reasons. Any semblance of normality which the Government might wish to bring about does not need football to deliver it, certainly not prematurely, as may be the case.
The value of games behind closed doors from a fan perspective

With the exception of many Liverpool fans and those involved in a resumed relegation battle, what appetite is there for games played behind closed doors from the fans? Almost every regular match-going fan expresses little desire to see games played in their physical absence.

The potential reduction in commercial value of the game
Premier League football, in sporting terms at least, is a prime broadcasting asset. It has huge value to the Premier League itself, the individual clubs and all employed by them, the broadcasters, sponsors and commercial partners.

It is priced as a premium product both to consumers and indeed the rights’ holders. Playing nearly a quarter of the season with all remaining games being broadcast live in the UK as well as many overseas markets potentially threatens that premium. Especially, if as is likely the case, all the remaining games are shown free to air including the removal of the Saturday 3pm blackout. This is a difficult genie to get back in the bottle.

Additionally games played in an empty stadium, perhaps at odd times to accommodate the congested fixture list, and bar only a small number of clubs, very little to play for will be a very different product than the usual fare offered by Premier League matches. I would argue that it may be very brand dilutive. If so, the premium aspect, or more precisely the lack of it, may alter the views of sponsors and commercial partners possibly to continued involvement, or certainly, the value and therefore the cost of involvement.

Sporting integrity
Can the sporting integrity of the Premier League be maintained when 92 of the 380 games are played in circumstances very different to the previous 288? Motivation levels will differ, squad fitness levels may differ, matches played in empty stadia will certainly alter the balance between home and away teams – home teams will lose most if not all of their competitive advantage. Especially for those clubs threatened by relegation, some may be advantaged, others disadvantaged but it is unlikely to be equal in its distribution. Personally I believe this to be a very important reason not to restart the League

Fitness risks to players/contractual implications
Based on the potential short term use of 5 substitutes per game, there must be concerns over players ability to remain fit and remain free of injury, condensing 8 or 9 games into a short period of time after a long and unplanned lay off.

Additionally, players at the end of their contracts, or perhaps on a short term extension face significant risks to their future employment should they receive and injury in this period.

Blindness to risk
One would hope the desire to get football started again is not just driven by the “money men”

It is really important that all the risks to starting again are considered and not just cast aside by the desire to meet contractual obligations. Commercial history is full of stories of businesses that decided to ignore known problems or risks to the product or service they sell. When they chose the wrong decision in these circumstances then the costs can be huge.

Do the thing that ensures the best future for the game not minimises short term financial losses. The reason? because if you get this wrong, you kill the geese that keeps laying golden eggs.

The goose is not the Premier League itself. It has long since lost its appeal as an institution by most football fans. We love our individual clubs, we love the game, we all want to be League Champions, but the institution itself has no value to most. The geese are the clubs themselves.

The Premier League has to show leadership and show that rare quality in football, a true sense of its worth. Football and individual clubs have huge value to its fans, we wouldn’t all be so nuts about it if it didn’t.

But the Premier League and its constituent members, the clubs themselves, have to make the right decision. There is little to gain, but an enormous amount to lose by a short term dash to a finish line that no longer has any value this season.

Let’s be gracious, responsible and reflect on the wider picture, the much greater issues that face us all in current times. Then, perhaps we can come back later in the year for a new season and a new start to football, wiser and with a national sport that will have retained its integrity.

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Re: Completing the season

Post by JohnMac » Thu Apr 30, 2020 2:50 pm

ksrclaret wrote:
Thu Apr 30, 2020 10:50 am
Are you on the wrong message board?

If you’d like to forget about football you’re choice of reading material is a little odd
You are misconstruing my comments. I love football as much as the next person but at this precise moment in time it isn't a priority in any way shape or form globally.

As for this message board, it used to be all about football.

For about a week.

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Re: Completing the season

Post by JohnMac » Thu Apr 30, 2020 2:58 pm

Screenshot_20200430_145733_com.android.chrome.jpg
Screenshot_20200430_145733_com.android.chrome.jpg (783.15 KiB) Viewed 710 times
To emphasise my comment...

ksrclaret
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Re: Completing the season

Post by ksrclaret » Thu Apr 30, 2020 3:01 pm

JohnMac wrote:
Thu Apr 30, 2020 2:50 pm
You are misconstruing my comments. I love football as much as the next person but at this precise moment in time it isn't a priority in any way shape or form globally.

As for this message board, it used to be all about football.

For about a week.
Perhaps, but it’s not unusual that posters on a football message board should want to discuss the return of football. Maybe it isn’t important to you, it might be to others.

If you don’t want to discuss it that’s fine, as you’ve just illustrated there are plenty of others topics you can contribute to.
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Re: Completing the season

Post by Darthlaw » Thu Apr 30, 2020 3:01 pm

dsr wrote:
Thu Apr 30, 2020 2:42 pm
If you are arguing that it's OK for footballers to die of flu or heart attacks but not of coronavirus - why? Bear in mind that in this country in the last two months, about 1 out of every 2 million people under the age of 40 have died of - or with - coronavirus. (Most of them with pre-existing conditions.) If that sort of risk is enough to stop football, then the risk of being killed while driving to the game - a much greater risk - would also be enough to cause postponement of all games.

You can't stop life in general for a 1 in 2 million risk. You can stop football because the potential damage to other people is too great, perhaps; to stop the NHS being overwhelmed; but not for the 1 in 200 million chance of death.
The footballers aren't the only ones going to be involved in a matchday though, are they?. What about anyone over the age of 40, to use your example? Are you happy to risk the likes of Hodgson, Bielsa, Ancelotti, Bruce (to name a few) who firmly fall into the at risk category? Moreso, what about when these people return home to their families?

You're right that we have to accept an element of risk but the difference between the accepted risk of stepping out of your front door is choice. You have the choice to accept that risk or not. You're advocating those associated with football are forced to take the risk for our entertainment.

What I find unpalatable is that the government will be advising the public to stay indoors and practise social distancing for their own safety. Simultaneously, the public will be asking footballers to go out and play a contact sport, actively putting themselves at risk for entertainment purposes.

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Re: Completing the season

Post by KateR » Thu Apr 30, 2020 3:03 pm

Personally I think there are many factors that need to be assed, both medical and economical, these will drive the outcome when viewed against numerous "facts" such as but not limited to in terms of PL and excluding any European competitions:
1.
We are starting to come out of the worst of it, people dying from it are in the vast majority older, have underlying medical issues, footballers themselves therefore have much less chance of actually dying from it. Players will need to be assed, any with issues such as asthma type problems need to be kept away.
Players/Staff/TV Crew all tested for high temperature every day, players tested to ensure they do not have it before being allowed to join the team, assume if you don't have it, then you can not pass it on. Potentially regular testing, obviously not to the detriment of the population
Staff and TV crews need to be selected on age/health, will be kept in masks, gloves etc.
Other services such as police will also need masks etc. to patrol the area.
2
Venues; select venues close to each other, can be in different locations, Birmingham, Manchester/Liverpool. Ensure every team is at a neutral location and never plays at home or even close to it. Travel needs to be absolutely minimal, no flying, hence no European matches at this stage. Total team groups and TV type personnel are in some ways kept socially distant from public, hotel/buses etc. to be sanitized every day.
3
Population, easy to police grounds and keep locals out/away, don't advertise which team is where, TV schedules just state match time but not teams
Pub's gatherings etc. much more difficult to control, Pub penalties for failure to keep social distancing if they are actually allowed to open.
At home most difficult, inviting friends around to watch the match, socializing, public has shown to date poor decision making in regard to keeping the distance, down to individuals, however hopefully people understand the issue of putting the family in danger and this is an absolute minimum.
4
Economy, forget individual clubs and PL/Sky. World is in recession now, things do need to open slowly, start getting back in phases towards some normality, lockdown seen to be easing at some point in the near future, TV plus advertising, people watching gives some relief to the mind as limited opening continues.

Finishing the season behind closed doors is a worthwhile strategy but needs to be done inline with Gov./Medical assessments, other areas such as being on Offshore Oi/Gas producing platforms, fishing boats, shops soft openings are comparable but clearly not the same as they don't have the physical contact so definitely a bigger risk but age/fitness also is better among footballers,

Could footballers actually play in masks for example, I doubt it very much but a question worth asking.

Means that a lot of people have to stay away from families for quite a while so they need to buy into that, games to be completed in fastest time possible, substitutes needs to be looked at, do you increase so games can be played/season finished faster or minimize to have less people in contact.

Just a lot of thought and planning is needed to make it happen if it is going to go ahead.

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Re: Completing the season

Post by JohnMac » Thu Apr 30, 2020 3:04 pm

ksrclaret wrote:
Thu Apr 30, 2020 3:01 pm
Perhaps, but it’s not unusual that posters on a football message board should want to discuss the return of football. Maybe it isn’t important to you, it might be to others.

If you don’t want to discuss it that’s fine, as you’ve just illustrated there are plenty of others topics you can contribute to.
So you only read the first paragraph then and chose to ignore my take on the future...

Go troll elsewhere

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Re: Completing the season

Post by ksrclaret » Thu Apr 30, 2020 3:05 pm

JohnMac wrote:
Thu Apr 30, 2020 3:04 pm
So you only read the first paragraph then and chose to ignore my take on the future...

Go troll elsewhere
You said ‘why not just forget about football’.

Maybe people don’t want to. You might, others might not.

Troll? Grow up.

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Re: Completing the season

Post by JohnMac » Thu Apr 30, 2020 3:08 pm

It's not like you don't have history noe bore off

dsr
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Re: Completing the season

Post by dsr » Thu Apr 30, 2020 3:10 pm

Darthlaw wrote:
Thu Apr 30, 2020 3:01 pm
You're right that we have to accept an element of risk but the difference between the accepted risk of stepping out of your front door is choice. You have the choice to accept that risk or not. You're advocating those associated with football are forced to take the risk for our entertainment.
I absolutely am not. I am more than happy for any footballer who does not accept the risk, to go on furlough. If football does not start at all, then they should all go on furlough; but all the club staff, not just the low paid.

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Re: Completing the season

Post by ksrclaret » Thu Apr 30, 2020 3:12 pm

JohnMac wrote:
Thu Apr 30, 2020 3:08 pm
It's not like you don't have history noe bore off
Im sorry you’ve got upset about it. Take care.

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Re: Completing the season

Post by clansman » Thu Apr 30, 2020 3:13 pm

I understand the St. George’s park option for all games in a 1 month period with players in specially isolated hotels and training at local grounds is the option Premier League are going for.lets see if it happens.

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Re: Completing the season

Post by clansman » Thu Apr 30, 2020 3:15 pm

Sorry 8 week period. All televised with 3 matches a day.

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Re: Completing the season

Post by clansman » Thu Apr 30, 2020 3:17 pm

Sorry 8 week period. All televised with 3 matches a day.

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Re: Completing the season

Post by ChorltonCharlie » Thu Apr 30, 2020 3:31 pm

clansman wrote:
Thu Apr 30, 2020 3:13 pm
I understand the St. George’s park option for all games in a 1 month period with players in specially isolated hotels and training at local grounds is the option Premier League are going for.lets see if it happens.
From what I've read there's the suits at the PL who will put options forward. The options will be about how it could be done to finish the season. These guys don't make the decision though, the clubs do. If I remember rightly 14 of them need to vote in favour of any solution. How much they really care about public health remains to be seen, but for Norwich, Brighton, Villa, Bournemouth, Watford and West Ham it's quite clear to see why they happily take a hit on losing some money this year and voiding the season then trying to start next season with the current PL teams. So if those 6 teams stand in the way of the kind of option you mention, then they only need one other team. Spurs and Arsenal may also sniff an opportunity of next season playing CL football if last years positions are used, or alternatively Leicester, Chelsea and Man United would be happy with current standings used for Euro Qualification.

Even so, this is still not really a football decision. Aren't we a week away from finding if the lockdown will be extended again? The goverment have stressed time and time again that their 5 targets must be met, and it seems very unlikley that this will happen by next week. So the target date of 8th June is probably not viable even if the football clubs can agree on restarting when allowed.

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Re: Completing the season

Post by Goddy » Thu Apr 30, 2020 3:40 pm

Regarding Chester Perry's @theESK, I have to say I think it an overly bleak piece. Reading that, the suggestion is that football should only be played when it is risk free. Now, if I was being pedantic, I could suggest that football (or ANY activity for that matter) is never going to be risk free.

I don't accept what are, in my opinion, spurious arguments about 'it not being fair because the remaining matches will be being played under different conditions' amongst other emotive arguments (e.g. the testing argument which I would hope is resolved by the time something like football returns in, say, late June). Specifically, as for the 'differing conditions', sorry, that's what happens all the time e.g. injuries, suspensions, good/bad weather, motivation levels, home 'advantage' (which may not be the case if you're under pressure in a relegation battle) etc etc etc. The fact is, these changed conditions would still be the same for all teams.

Look I am sympathetic to the idea of making it all as safe (risk free) as possible but we have to also be realistic and try and make moves towards a return to some level of normality (which includes a return of social activities including football, cinema, pubs etc as well as everything else) as the alternative is probably much worse (economic disaster and all that goes with it including, yes, additional deaths). The challenge is to find a way to resume activities which minimises (but will never eradicate) all the risks.

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Re: Completing the season

Post by Darthlaw » Thu Apr 30, 2020 3:45 pm

dsr wrote:
Thu Apr 30, 2020 3:10 pm
I absolutely am not. I am more than happy for any footballer who does not accept the risk, to go on furlough. If football does not start at all, then they should all go on furlough; but all the club staff, not just the low paid.
Apologies, DSR, I didn't mean you personally and 'forced' was a poor choice of words.

My point is that the football industry will feel pressured to take the risks provide entertainment for the masses.

Hodgson and Ancelotti are great examples. Is it fair Palace or Everton will need to complete the season without their managers or is it reasonable to put the pressure on them to take the risk because football wants to get on with it? Will they have a sense of obligation to take the risk because of a sense of obligation to their club's fans?

If Palace miss out on Europe because Hodgson didn't want to risk his life, choosing to stay away, how would he be received on his return? In the sporting sense are we happy that some teams will be disadvantaged by the potential abstinence of their older staff?

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Re: Completing the season

Post by Chester Perry » Thu Apr 30, 2020 3:58 pm

Goddy wrote:
Thu Apr 30, 2020 3:40 pm

I don't accept what are, in my opinion, spurious arguments about 'it not being fair because the remaining matches will be being played under different conditions' amongst other emotive arguments (e.g. the testing argument which I would hope is resolved by the time something like football returns in, say, late June). Specifically, as for the 'differing conditions', sorry, that's what happens all the time e.g. injuries, suspensions, good/bad weather, motivation levels, home 'advantage' (which may not be the case if you're under pressure in a relegation battle) etc etc etc. The fact is, these changed conditions would still be the same for all teams.
I have no issue with you holding a different opinion on the article - and you offer some reasonable points.

I will say that Burnley have gained some advantage at times from playing at home - most notably when conditions are bad and we make use of the wind and/or driving rain and the slope in the 2nd half - this season most notably against Southampton. Overall I accept that the longer we have stayed in the Premier League the more all our visitors have come mentally prepared for the dressing rooms, pitch and closeness to the fans so that the home advantage impact has been much reduced - apart from against West Ham

There is the other issue of training and preparation - if all clubs are in one location such as St Georges Park just how do you prepare for matches in open view of all your rivals

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Re: Completing the season

Post by clansman » Thu Apr 30, 2020 4:15 pm

They will use local club grounds chester

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Re: Completing the season

Post by Chester Perry » Thu Apr 30, 2020 4:17 pm

clansman wrote:
Thu Apr 30, 2020 4:15 pm
They will use local club grounds chester
And how do you do that without increasing the risks?

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Re: Completing the season

Post by UnderSeige » Thu Apr 30, 2020 4:21 pm

If football is allowed behind closed doors:
  • Small groups of mates will likely get together in houses with a few beers and no social distancing.
  • Others will ask:
    • Why should we observe all these restrictions when football is allowed to go ahead?
    • Why should we stay at home when we can all drive en-mass to the country or seaside?
    • Why can't the garden centre be open?
    • What is there to stop me going fishing?
    • Why can't my favourite sport go ahead behind closed doors?
    • Why can't the pubs open so that we can all watch the match together? After all we are all watching the matches in groups at home.
If the government allows football to go ahead it is also likely to have to let other restrictions lifted. The virus will then start to spread rapidly again and we will be back at square one. Best to wait until the coast is clear.

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Re: Completing the season

Post by ChorltonCharlie » Thu Apr 30, 2020 4:25 pm

I understand why some would think there's little weight to the arguments about fairness. How much time on here is devoted to comparing run-ins every single season though? Some times it's not even the run in, and people are debating whether we're in for a period of cashing in on points or facing a tough run. If we were fighting for our lives and still had Norwich, Bournemouth and Villa to play at home would you be happy for those games to be played on neutral grounds in front of no fans? I suspect most wouldn't be. Football is notoriously a difficult game to predict, but I do think it's understandable that teams may feel that a run in that for them looked quite kind as opposed to anothers who looked tough would be up in arms at the thought of that perceived advantage being removed.

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Re: Completing the season

Post by Goddy » Thu Apr 30, 2020 4:29 pm

Darthlaw/Chester - I take your points and understand where you're coming from. I'm perhaps arguing that every match that is played teams have advantages and disadvantages (playing at home, change of manager, form of various teams at a particular time). For me, the likes of Hodgson not being there is similar to, perhaps, if a manager goes off ill with any other illness (or maybe on bereavement leave or anything else).

We can all make a case to say that playing a match is unfair on one team or another but, as I say, this whole situation may have advantages for one team over another (but isn't that always the position?)

Think we need to work round all this situation and try and mitigate as many of the problems as possible and try and get something going.....

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Re: Completing the season

Post by Goddy » Thu Apr 30, 2020 4:34 pm

UnderSeige wrote:
Thu Apr 30, 2020 4:21 pm

If the government allows football to go ahead it is also likely to have to let other restrictions lifted. The virus will then start to spread rapidly again and we will be back at square one. Best to wait until the coast is clear.
Coast won't be clear until there's a vaccine (or very effective therapeutics). Working within boundaries has to be an option to be considered in order to get us back to a level of normality.

As for the other arguments about social distancing, many of these arguments are being put forward as if the situation will not have changed (improved, hopefully) by the time we consider starting up social activities such as football matches, cinema etc. I agree, if we have football starting this weekend, then people will gather in houses (or pubs, maybe, if Tim Martin at Wetherspoons has his way) and we'll have another Covid-19 spike. Wait a few weeks and things might be different.....not perfect but maybe improved enough to begin to start things up again, tentatively.....

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Re: Completing the season

Post by alboclaret » Thu Apr 30, 2020 4:55 pm

Darthlaw wrote:
Thu Apr 30, 2020 1:56 pm
I don't understand why we'd ask entertainers (lets face it football is entertainment) to put themselves and their families in danger, to satisfy our need for amusement but hey ho.
Strange response. Not relevant to my comment.

FWIW I'm not fussed about it re starting.
**** it off for next 7 yrs for me till my lads got better things to do than mess around with dad.
But, it's a industry not just entertainment. People jobs, lots of people. The media jobs too. I'd dont know the facts but football must be up there with one of the biggest industries in the country.
It's not trying to get going again for fans. Hence the behind closed doors it's so people have jobs to do.

Darthlaw
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Re: Completing the season

Post by Darthlaw » Thu Apr 30, 2020 5:04 pm

Goddy - I agree with the principle that teams have natural advantages / disadvantages throughout a season but frankly how many times have managers missed 25% of the season through illness / absence?

It seems strange to me that some are keen to preserve sporting integrity of the league but happy to actively disadvantage teams like Everton, Leeds, Palace due to the age of their coaches or worse, place pressure upon those managers to put their health in the firing line for what is essentially entertainment.

I wonder if one of these coaches was a family member of yours, you'd be happy with the pressure for them to be placing their health in jeopardy for a game?
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Re: Completing the season

Post by dsr » Thu Apr 30, 2020 5:12 pm

"Sporting integrity" is vastly overstated. One of the links above says the league's "sporting integrity" is lost because matches are played under different conditions - some with crowds, some without. If only he had noticed that some matches are played in warm sunshine and some in driving rain or snow - he could have been complaining about that for years.

Here's a saying that has been around for years, and has always been the answer to the "sporting integrity" that has recently appeared as a justification by people who want to cancel the league. It's the same for both sides. Palace's manager is wrong side of 70? Unlucky. Tottenham's star striker is injured? Unlucky. Some teams have 5 players out and others only 1? Unlucky. That's the way it goes. They don't abandon the league because some teams are lucky, others unlucky.

Football is 11 v 11 on a field with goalposts. That's true at Sunday League level and it's true at Premier League level. The rest is just detail.

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Re: Completing the season

Post by Elizabeth » Thu Apr 30, 2020 5:26 pm

What seems to be clear from the various arguments being put forward for and against the resumption of football is that generally people have not changed their minds.
Those who want the season to resume strive to come up with solutions and support.
Those who have always wanted the season ended continue to put up arguments why it shouldn't or won't likely continue.
There will be PL clubs with vested interest in the season finishing but I don't think it will be as simple as the 6 teams currently at the bottom being the deciding factor
Last edited by Elizabeth on Thu Apr 30, 2020 5:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Completing the season

Post by Darthlaw » Thu Apr 30, 2020 5:27 pm

dsr wrote:
Thu Apr 30, 2020 5:12 pm
Here's a saying that has been around for years, and has always been the answer to the "sporting integrity" that has recently appeared as a justification by people who want to cancel the league. It's the same for both sides. Palace's manager is wrong side of 70? Unlucky. Tottenham's star striker is injured? Unlucky. Some teams have 5 players out and others only 1? Unlucky. That's the way it goes.
We can say all the above but cant bring ourselves to say "A deadly global pandemic has arisen which has killed tens of thousands, so we can't continue the league. Unlucky"?

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Re: Completing the season

Post by Goddy » Thu Apr 30, 2020 6:02 pm

Bizarrely, I'm almost between Darthlaw and drs's position (I think!?).

I think there are factors which are lucky/unlucky but all teams are in the same situation here.

I'm not suggesting that someone like Hodgson should put himself at risk (in answer to Darthlaw's point). What I'm suggesting is that we search for ways to mitigate the risks in general....maybe with some ingenuity. If we take the Hodgson situation, he could watch the game from home (after all he's not on the pitch during the game although, I admit, much closer to the action), have a phone to contact the bench and discuss tactics/changes etc in the same way as he would if there in person and so on. I'm not saying this is a perfect situation but it is a way of mitigating a risk and, yes, in this sort of scenario I would accept that situation and say, as long as all other risks were mitigated as best as possible to make the event as safe as possible, I'd continue to want to have the match played

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Re: Completing the season

Post by NewClaret » Thu Apr 30, 2020 6:08 pm

clansman wrote:
Thu Apr 30, 2020 3:13 pm
I understand the St. George’s park option for all games in a 1 month period with players in specially isolated hotels and training at local grounds is the option Premier League are going for.lets see if it happens.
This isn’t such a bad idea. Games at grounds would be my preference, but if that’s how it has to be, so be it. Better than the null and void option!

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Re: Completing the season

Post by NewClaret » Thu Apr 30, 2020 6:20 pm

Goddy wrote:
Thu Apr 30, 2020 6:02 pm
Bizarrely, I'm almost between Darthlaw and drs's position (I think!?).

I think there are factors which are lucky/unlucky but all teams are in the same situation here.

I'm not suggesting that someone like Hodgson should put himself at risk (in answer to Darthlaw's point). What I'm suggesting is that we search for ways to mitigate the risks in general....maybe with some ingenuity. If we take the Hodgson situation, he could watch the game from home (after all he's not on the pitch during the game although, I admit, much closer to the action), have a phone to contact the bench and discuss tactics/changes etc in the same way as he would if there in person and so on. I'm not saying this is a perfect situation but it is a way of mitigating a risk and, yes, in this sort of scenario I would accept that situation and say, as long as all other risks were mitigated as best as possible to make the event as safe as possible, I'd continue to want to have the match played
Exactly. There are ways around these challenges with some ingenuity (and will).

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Re: Completing the season

Post by UnderSeige » Thu Apr 30, 2020 9:02 pm

Gody wrote: As for the other arguments about social distancing, many of these arguments are being put forward as if the situation will not have changed (improved, hopefully) by the time we consider starting up social activities such as football matches, cinema etc.
On the 5th of March the total UK number of recorded cases rose above 100 for the first time (116). By the 5th of April the total number of recorded cases was 47,806. As of yesterday, the number of cases was 165,221.

These figures do not include care homes or people who suffer it at home without going to hospital. Boris Johnson, before going in hospital said that, in order to get a true picture, the figures need to multiplied by 10. If that is the correct, in less than 8 weeks, the number of cases has risen from 1,160 to 1,652,210. Over five weeks of this period have been in lockdown.

When restrictions start to be lifted, how many current live cases can we allow to start off from? We will need a low number with lots of testing and tracking. We will likely be required to wear masks in public places. Restrictions will likely be lifted very slowly and carefully focusing on the most important aspects of the economy and the least risky 'easing measures' coming first. Sport (with spectators); cinemas, theatres, pubs etc are likely to be way down the list and a long time away. Possibly we will have to wait for a vaccine before we can finally get back on the Turf.

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Re: Completing the season

Post by ChorltonCharlie » Fri May 01, 2020 11:10 am

dsr wrote:
Thu Apr 30, 2020 5:12 pm
"Sporting integrity" is vastly overstated. One of the links above says the league's "sporting integrity" is lost because matches are played under different conditions - some with crowds, some without. If only he had noticed that some matches are played in warm sunshine and some in driving rain or snow - he could have been complaining about that for years.

Here's a saying that has been around for years, and has always been the answer to the "sporting integrity" that has recently appeared as a justification by people who want to cancel the league. It's the same for both sides. Palace's manager is wrong side of 70? Unlucky. Tottenham's star striker is injured? Unlucky. Some teams have 5 players out and others only 1? Unlucky. That's the way it goes. They don't abandon the league because some teams are lucky, others unlucky.

Football is 11 v 11 on a field with goalposts. That's true at Sunday League level and it's true at Premier League level. The rest is just detail.
To quote Sean Dyche, you control the controllables. That's what any sporting competition seeks to do before it starts. Home advantage is a huge factor. At the start of a season every club knows they have an equal number of home and away games. You can't just remove that advantage with 9/10 games to go and say tough luck when over a hundred million pounds is at stake. The things you mention are not controllable and every one signs up for that at the start of the season.

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