Wow BJ eviscerates the EU!!!

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JohnMcGreal
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Re: Wow BJ eviscerates the EU!!!

Post by JohnMcGreal » Sun Oct 18, 2020 7:49 am

dsr wrote:
Sun Oct 18, 2020 12:28 am
The key areas being fishing and the role of the ECJ.

If we go back in the new year to negotiate again, there will be nothing to resolve. The EU did not need to resolve fishing rights before signing trade agreements with Japan and Canada, and they certainly didn't have to discuss how much influence the ECJ would have over Canadian and Japanese laws. If they continue to make those into sticking points, then it will be further evidence that they don't really want to deal.
So you think the EU will no longer be interested in things like a level playing field and state aid from January? They'll sign tariff-free, quota-free deal with a country that can 'cheat' the rules of the single market and undercut everyone else? I'd say there is absolutely zero chance of that happening.

Also, you'd think the differences between ourselves and Canada or Japan are fairly obvious.

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Re: Wow BJ eviscerates the EU!!!

Post by Burnley Ace » Sun Oct 18, 2020 9:26 am

JohnMcGreal wrote:
Sun Oct 18, 2020 7:49 am

Also, you'd think the differences between ourselves and Canada or Japan are fairly obvious.
Which is why there was never going to be a deal. The EU cannot afford to have a country like the UK on its border that is a more attractive place for foreign investment. We have wasted 2 years.

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Re: Wow BJ eviscerates the EU!!!

Post by GodIsADeeJay81 » Sun Oct 18, 2020 9:33 am

AndrewJB wrote:
Sun Oct 18, 2020 3:08 am
We are about to leave a trading relationship to which 40% of our exports go. We have not, in all of the agreements we have reached, come near to replacing that. Our new trade agreements mostly continue existing trade we already had via the EU. So it doesn’t create, but protects existing trade. If we trade with the EU (our closest geographic partners) on WTO terms then we have to face competition from outside countries that have trade deals with the EU. Our 40% will get whittled down. How much by, I have no idea, but it will fall. We will have to pay more for things we import, because things from the EU will have tariffs on them, and things less expensive will only be so because the new tariffs on EU produce is more expensive (when before it had no tariff).

We are moving into a more expensive world.
Yes we will move into a more expensive world, however so will the EU.
This will also open us up to more opportunities with the rest of the world and not being forced to add tariffs to things at that behest of the EU's trade deals.

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Re: Wow BJ eviscerates the EU!!!

Post by GodIsADeeJay81 » Sun Oct 18, 2020 9:34 am

AndrewJB wrote:
Sun Oct 18, 2020 3:19 am
If you’re unable to understand when I’m describing a government acting in bad faith, then I’m not sure how to write more clearly.
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He promised to get Brexit done, he promised to negotiate with the EU for a trade deal....

He's not acting in bad faith, that's your interpretation.
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Re: Wow BJ eviscerates the EU!!!

Post by JohnMcGreal » Sun Oct 18, 2020 9:42 am

Burnley Ace wrote:
Sun Oct 18, 2020 9:26 am
Which is why there was never going to be a deal. The EU cannot afford to have a country like the UK on its border that is a more attractive place for foreign investment. We have wasted 2 years.
We were repeatedly told in 2016 that getting a deal would be easy. That the EU would be bending over backwards to do a deal with us. That nobody was talking about leaving the single market. That there would be no down sides. That we would hold all the cards.

So my question is, how did the architects of the Leave campaigns miscalculate the situation so badly, and when will they be resigning?

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Re: Wow BJ eviscerates the EU!!!

Post by GodIsADeeJay81 » Sun Oct 18, 2020 9:46 am

JohnMcGreal wrote:
Sun Oct 18, 2020 9:42 am
We were repeatedly told in 2016 that getting a deal would be easy. That the EU would be bending over backwards to do a deal with us. That nobody was talking about leaving the single market. That there would be no down sides. That we would hold all the cards.

So my question is, how did the architects of the Leave campaigns miscalculate the situation so badly, and when will they be resigning?
We had idiots /remainers in charge and half heartedly negotiating for us for the first few years incase you hadn't noticed and they wasted that time by swanning around bending over and continuing to extend deadlines etc.

I suspect if we'd had the current lot from when the result was announced things would be different.

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Re: Wow BJ eviscerates the EU!!!

Post by JohnMcGreal » Sun Oct 18, 2020 9:49 am

Good grief.

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Re: Wow BJ eviscerates the EU!!!

Post by GodIsADeeJay81 » Sun Oct 18, 2020 9:51 am

JohnMcGreal wrote:
Sun Oct 18, 2020 9:49 am
Good grief.
Which part was wrong?

We've drawn a clear line in the sand and have gotten on with it.

May/Davis didn't do any of that and took no deal off the table which was a mistake.

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Re: Wow BJ eviscerates the EU!!!

Post by Jakubclaret » Sun Oct 18, 2020 10:01 am

JohnMcGreal wrote:
Sun Oct 18, 2020 9:42 am
We were repeatedly told in 2016 that getting a deal would be easy. That the EU would be bending over backwards to do a deal with us. That nobody was talking about leaving the single market. That there would be no down sides. That we would hold all the cards.

So my question is, how did the architects of the Leave campaigns miscalculate the situation so badly, and when will they be resigning?
With a united front from the outset we would have had all the aces wasn't to be, now we've got them same people complaining about why things have gone wrong.

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Re: Wow BJ eviscerates the EU!!!

Post by Erasmus » Sun Oct 18, 2020 10:01 am

So is leaving the EU going to make Britain more prosperous, and be beneficial to the people of the country? Or is it going to leave us poorer?

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Re: Wow BJ eviscerates the EU!!!

Post by Bordeauxclaret » Sun Oct 18, 2020 10:03 am

Like a bewildered wife going back to her cheating abusive husband. This time, this time it’ll be different.

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Re: Wow BJ eviscerates the EU!!!

Post by GodIsADeeJay81 » Sun Oct 18, 2020 10:07 am

Erasmus wrote:
Sun Oct 18, 2020 10:01 am
So is leaving the EU going to make Britain more prosperous, and be beneficial to the people of the country? Or is it going to leave us poorer?
Dig out a crystal ball and let us know.

None of us can accurately predict where the country will end up, despite the naysayers claiming otherwise.

Being free of the constraints of being in the EU could well end up being a great thing but it may take a few years to realise that potential.
We could end up better off, no better, or worse and not a single person can be sure which it will be.

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Re: Wow BJ eviscerates the EU!!!

Post by Jakubclaret » Sun Oct 18, 2020 10:08 am

Erasmus wrote:
Sun Oct 18, 2020 10:01 am
So is leaving the EU going to make Britain more prosperous, and be beneficial to the people of the country? Or is it going to leave us poorer?
What about us leaving properly first & allowing the passage of time to determine the answer to that question in order to establish some facts, would that be remotely possible?
This user liked this post: GodIsADeeJay81

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Re: Wow BJ eviscerates the EU!!!

Post by Erasmus » Sun Oct 18, 2020 10:21 am

So it's a bit of a gamble then? We would have to try to work out which is the most likely outcome and what the odds are of us winning. Isn't it just a leap in the dark that might reduce the country's prosperity?

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Re: Wow BJ eviscerates the EU!!!

Post by Jakubclaret » Sun Oct 18, 2020 10:24 am

If you can call something a gamble trying to improve something that wasn't working satisfactory previously I guess so, I'd rather take that blind leap.

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Re: Wow BJ eviscerates the EU!!!

Post by martin_p » Sun Oct 18, 2020 10:37 am

GodIsADeeJay81 wrote:
Sun Oct 18, 2020 10:07 am
We could end up better off, no better, or worse and not a single person can be sure which it will be.
That was one of the lesser known Leave campaign messages then.

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Re: Wow BJ eviscerates the EU!!!

Post by GodIsADeeJay81 » Sun Oct 18, 2020 10:46 am

martin_p wrote:
Sun Oct 18, 2020 10:37 am
That was one of the lesser known Leave campaign messages then.
As opposed to the instant doom and destruction messages from remain
Still waiting for that emergency budget btw from Osborne.

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Re: Wow BJ eviscerates the EU!!!

Post by martin_p » Sun Oct 18, 2020 10:48 am

GodIsADeeJay81 wrote:
Sun Oct 18, 2020 10:46 am
As opposed to the instant doom and destruction messages from remain
Still waiting for that emergency budget btw from Osborne.
I think his resignation may have stopped that happening.

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Re: Wow BJ eviscerates the EU!!!

Post by Spijed » Sun Oct 18, 2020 10:50 am

Jakubclaret wrote:
Sun Oct 18, 2020 10:01 am
With a united front from the outset we would have had all the aces wasn't to be, now we've got them same people complaining about why things have gone wrong.
Even with a united front we would still have faced the same problems that we do now, such as trying to sort out state aid, fishing rights, border on Ireland etc.

Why would we have held al the aces?

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Re: Wow BJ eviscerates the EU!!!

Post by android » Sun Oct 18, 2020 11:03 am

AndrewJB wrote:
Sat Oct 17, 2020 10:46 pm
You must know that the combination of “get brexit done” and “oven ready deal” led a lot of people to believe it was all finished if Johnson got in? We now know the deal he signed was something he was never going to keep to. He signed it in bad faith. That you would champion and defend such behaviour calls into question your opinions on honesty in politics. The main campaign promise, just a load of ********. But rather than showing any kind of appalled-ness at this, you’re showing everyone to the fine print. I’ve been accused of being a Corbyn cult member on here, but I’ve never (and never will) gone as far as you’ve done - defending the indefensible. You’re a Johnson cult member.
I was just reporting a fact Andrew. Historic events don't need a champion or a defender. I passed no comment on whether the consequences would be good or bad.

I am sorry if you thought that the "oven ready" withdrawal agreement meant that the trade deal was done and dusted. If you remember back in 2019 "the deal" was the withdrawal agreement - would it or would it not be agreed and would we or would we not leave the EU. I do think you were in a tiny minority if you thought the future relationship was completely sorted by the withdrawal agreement and not subject to further trade negotiations.

I understand your frustration with it all but lashing out at me achieves nothing. I will put the "honesty" and "cult" nonsense down to high feelings on a Saturday night that are best forgotten in the cold light of a Sunday morning.

Anyway, it looks like the discussion has moved on (back) to what you and aggi seem more interested in - what happens next and all the usual same old same old. (I hear you Kate).

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Re: Wow BJ eviscerates the EU!!!

Post by Jakubclaret » Sun Oct 18, 2020 11:06 am

Spijed wrote:
Sun Oct 18, 2020 10:50 am
Even with a united front we would still have faced the same problems that we do now, such as trying to sort out state aid, fishing rights, border on Ireland etc.

Why would we have held al the aces?
Simple because the EU would have been far more flexible & accommodating.

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Re: Wow BJ eviscerates the EU!!!

Post by GodIsADeeJay81 » Sun Oct 18, 2020 11:07 am

Spijed wrote:
Sun Oct 18, 2020 10:50 am
Even with a united front we would still have faced the same problems that we do now, such as trying to sort out state aid, fishing rights, border on Ireland etc.

Why would we have held al the aces?
There would've been less faffing about by our side.

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Re: Wow BJ eviscerates the EU!!!

Post by martin_p » Sun Oct 18, 2020 11:08 am

Jakubclaret wrote:
Sun Oct 18, 2020 11:06 am
Simple because the EU would have been far more flexible & accommodating.
Why?

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Re: Wow BJ eviscerates the EU!!!

Post by GodIsADeeJay81 » Sun Oct 18, 2020 11:08 am

martin_p wrote:
Sun Oct 18, 2020 10:48 am
I think his resignation may have stopped that happening.
The next chancellor didn't put one forward either...

In fact we won't have an emergency one next year either that's to do with leaving the EU

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Re: Wow BJ eviscerates the EU!!!

Post by martin_p » Sun Oct 18, 2020 11:10 am

GodIsADeeJay81 wrote:
Sun Oct 18, 2020 11:08 am
The next chancellor didn't put one forward either...

In fact we won't have an emergency one next year either that's to do with leaving the EU
Well no, the next government was committed to delivering Brexit, an emergency budget would have been a massive own goal whether it was needed or not.

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Re: Wow BJ eviscerates the EU!!!

Post by Spijed » Sun Oct 18, 2020 11:14 am

martin_p wrote:
Sun Oct 18, 2020 11:08 am
Why?
I can't under stand his logic either.

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Re: Wow BJ eviscerates the EU!!!

Post by CombatClaret » Sun Oct 18, 2020 11:31 am

The positives now given for Brexit are always intangibles (because there aren't any) so it fall back on "chart our own course" or similar rhetorical vagaries, always with the increasingly common caveat that yes, it might make us a lot poorer but we can't know until it happens. Don't remember that in 2016.

But the negatives are real and tangible and can be pointed to.
Downgrade in credit rating.
Pound tanking.
50,000 export form fillers needed to trained & paid for.
A huge lorry park to deal with backlogs.
Losing access to criminal databases
etc etc

The Brexit paradox: Any government with the skills & competency to deliver Brexit, wouldn't

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Re: Wow BJ eviscerates the EU!!!

Post by GodIsADeeJay81 » Sun Oct 18, 2020 11:34 am

martin_p wrote:
Sun Oct 18, 2020 11:08 am
Why?
The EU knew we were divided and pulling in different directions so they exploited that weakness on purpose, which is to be expected.

If we'd been united then it would've been a different scenario and the EU would've behaved differently.

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Re: Wow BJ eviscerates the EU!!!

Post by Spijed » Sun Oct 18, 2020 11:38 am

GodIsADeeJay81 wrote:
Sun Oct 18, 2020 11:34 am
If we'd been united then it would've been a different scenario and the EU would've behaved differently.
Can you provide any evidence at all to support this theory?

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Re: Wow BJ eviscerates the EU!!!

Post by aggi » Sun Oct 18, 2020 11:44 am

martin_p wrote:
Sun Oct 18, 2020 11:08 am
Why?
Because otherwise those who wanted Brexit would have to take responsibility for the current shitshow. Far easier to blame it on someone else

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Re: Wow BJ eviscerates the EU!!!

Post by GodIsADeeJay81 » Sun Oct 18, 2020 11:45 am

Spijed wrote:
Sun Oct 18, 2020 11:38 am
Can you provide any evidence at all to support this theory?
Nope, but you already know that.

However we spent way to much time bickering amongst ourselves over a democratic vote that it was laughable and easily exploited by the EU.

Are you able to provide proof that it wouldn't have been the case?

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Re: Wow BJ eviscerates the EU!!!

Post by GodIsADeeJay81 » Sun Oct 18, 2020 11:46 am

aggi wrote:
Sun Oct 18, 2020 11:44 am
Because otherwise those who wanted Brexit would have to take responsibility for the current shitshow. Far easier to blame it on someone else
We take responsibility for it, always have done.

It's you lot who can't seem to accept that we do.

How about remainers take their share of responsibility for this **** show as you call it.

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Re: Wow BJ eviscerates the EU!!!

Post by Rileybobs » Sun Oct 18, 2020 11:51 am

GodIsADeeJay81 wrote:
Sun Oct 18, 2020 11:45 am
Nope, but you already know that.

However we spent way to much time bickering amongst ourselves over a democratic vote that it was laughable and easily exploited by the EU.

Are you able to provide proof that it wouldn't have been the case?
So the people who were warning that this wasn’t going to end well are now responsible for it not ending well? Beautiful.

Take some accountability.

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Re: Wow BJ eviscerates the EU!!!

Post by CombatClaret » Sun Oct 18, 2020 11:51 am

GodIsADeeJay81 wrote:
Sun Oct 18, 2020 11:45 am
However we spent way to much time bickering amongst ourselves over a democratic vote that it was laughable and easily exploited by the EU.
Surely that issue arose from the many different versions of Brexit all simultaneously campaigned for being lumped into one vote, afterward you have to untangle it all.

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Re: Wow BJ eviscerates the EU!!!

Post by GodIsADeeJay81 » Sun Oct 18, 2020 11:56 am

Rileybobs wrote:
Sun Oct 18, 2020 11:51 am
So the people who were warning that this wasn’t going to end well are now responsible for it not ending well? Beautiful.

Take some accountability.
Never shirked accountability thanks.

We spent several years dicking about fighting amongst ourselves because one side were so shocked they lost what they assumed was a forgone conclusion.

Last year we finally got a gov that has ensured we will finally get this over the line with or without a deal.

For years we said that no deal had to remain on the table but the experts on here couldn't seem to understand that.

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Re: Wow BJ eviscerates the EU!!!

Post by GodIsADeeJay81 » Sun Oct 18, 2020 11:56 am

CombatClaret wrote:
Sun Oct 18, 2020 11:51 am
Surely that issue arose from the many different versions of Brexit all simultaneously campaigned for being lumped into one vote, afterward you have to untangle it all.
Remind me what were the options on the ballot paper?

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Re: Wow BJ eviscerates the EU!!!

Post by CombatClaret » Sun Oct 18, 2020 11:59 am

GodIsADeeJay81 wrote:
Sun Oct 18, 2020 11:56 am
Remind me what were the options on the ballot paper?
Deliberately Ignores my phrasing

*Campaigned For

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Re: Wow BJ eviscerates the EU!!!

Post by Rileybobs » Sun Oct 18, 2020 12:01 pm

GodIsADeeJay81 wrote:
Sun Oct 18, 2020 11:56 am
Never shirked accountability thanks.

We spent several years dicking about fighting amongst ourselves because one side were so shocked they lost what they assumed was a forgone conclusion.

Last year we finally got a gov that has ensured we will finally get this over the line with or without a deal.

For years we said that no deal had to remain on the table but the experts on here couldn't seem to understand that.
Sounds like everyone else is to blame other than the people who voted to leave the EU. Which is quite convenient.

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Re: Wow BJ eviscerates the EU!!!

Post by martin_p » Sun Oct 18, 2020 12:06 pm

GodIsADeeJay81 wrote:
Sun Oct 18, 2020 11:45 am
Nope, but you already know that.

However we spent way to much time bickering amongst ourselves over a democratic vote that it was laughable and easily exploited by the EU.

Are you able to provide proof that it wouldn't have been the case?
Yes, because the scenario you put forward has been the case for ten months now (a huge Tory majority) and it hasn’t changed the EU’s negotiating position or red lines one iota.

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Re: Wow BJ eviscerates the EU!!!

Post by GodIsADeeJay81 » Sun Oct 18, 2020 12:08 pm

martin_p wrote:
Sun Oct 18, 2020 12:06 pm
Yes, because the scenario you put forward has been the case for ten months now (a huge Tory majority) and it hasn’t changed the EU’s negotiating position or red lines one iota.
So nothing has changed from the EU side?
Oh OK.

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Re: Wow BJ eviscerates the EU!!!

Post by GodIsADeeJay81 » Sun Oct 18, 2020 12:09 pm

Rileybobs wrote:
Sun Oct 18, 2020 12:01 pm
Sounds like everyone else is to blame other than the people who voted to leave the EU. Which is quite convenient.
You've asked me to take responsibility, I have done.

I'll accept whatever happens, leavers will do that you see.

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Re: Wow BJ eviscerates the EU!!!

Post by GodIsADeeJay81 » Sun Oct 18, 2020 12:10 pm

CombatClaret wrote:
Sun Oct 18, 2020 11:59 am
Deliberately Ignores my phrasing

*Campaigned For
OK.

Cameron stated prior to the vote that all options were on the table, including leaving with no deal.

That's the PM of the country at the time on a national programme.

So No deal has been an option from the very start and rightly so.

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Re: Wow BJ eviscerates the EU!!!

Post by Rileybobs » Sun Oct 18, 2020 12:13 pm

GodIsADeeJay81 wrote:
Sun Oct 18, 2020 12:09 pm
You've asked me to take responsibility, I have done.

I'll accept whatever happens, leavers will do that you see.
Accepting whatever happens isn’t really something to be proud about.

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Re: Wow BJ eviscerates the EU!!!

Post by Jakubclaret » Sun Oct 18, 2020 12:25 pm

More & more people are likening the possibility of a no deal I think it's 2/3 that think no deal is a bad idea so 1/3 want a no deal, it's definitely becoming more popular once upon a time over 30% was unheard of.

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Re: Wow BJ eviscerates the EU!!!

Post by GodIsADeeJay81 » Sun Oct 18, 2020 12:27 pm

Rileybobs wrote:
Sun Oct 18, 2020 12:13 pm
Accepting whatever happens isn’t really something to be proud about.
I'm being told to accept responsibility, so I have.

Anything else you'd like from me on this matter so you can then complain about it?

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Re: Wow BJ eviscerates the EU!!!

Post by TheFamilyCat » Sun Oct 18, 2020 12:29 pm

Jakubclaret wrote:
Sun Oct 18, 2020 12:25 pm
More & more people are likening the possibility of a no deal I think it's 2/3 that think no deal is a bad idea so 1/3 want a no deal, it's definitely becoming more popular once upon a time over 30% was unheard of.
Have you made those numbers up?

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Re: Wow BJ eviscerates the EU!!!

Post by Jakubclaret » Sun Oct 18, 2020 12:30 pm

TheFamilyCat wrote:
Sun Oct 18, 2020 12:29 pm
Have you made those numbers up?
No, I want a no deal I think we are better off with a hard brexit.

Rileybobs
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Re: Wow BJ eviscerates the EU!!!

Post by Rileybobs » Sun Oct 18, 2020 12:31 pm

GodIsADeeJay81 wrote:
Sun Oct 18, 2020 12:27 pm
I'm being told to accept responsibility, so I have.

Anything else you'd like from me on this matter so you can then complain about it?
I’m not complaining about anything. I’m just pointing out that you pinning the blame of the current situation on the people who didn’t want to leave the EU is ludicrous.

Rileybobs
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Re: Wow BJ eviscerates the EU!!!

Post by Rileybobs » Sun Oct 18, 2020 12:31 pm

Jakubclaret wrote:
Sun Oct 18, 2020 12:30 pm
No, I want a no deal I think we are better off with a hard brexit.
For some reason that doesn’t come as a surprise to me.

TheFamilyCat
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Re: Wow BJ eviscerates the EU!!!

Post by TheFamilyCat » Sun Oct 18, 2020 12:33 pm

Jakubclaret wrote:
Sun Oct 18, 2020 12:30 pm
No, I want a no deal I think we are better off with a hard brexit.
That's 100% of your straw poll then. Or did you ask teo other people as well?

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