Wow BJ eviscerates the EU!!!

[RingoMcCartney]

Hi Sid

Genuine question here

You do know that the government reason (food shortages NI due to EU blockade) that has got you and Ringo all hot under the collar isn't actually sorted by this bill right?

(back to losing)

Sorted for you.

[dsr]

And where does the Good Friday Agreement say there can’t be trade barriers between the UK and NI? It wouldn’t have considered a non existent border that is only being created at the behest of the current government. I misunderstood your previous post, I thought you were referring to trade barriers between Ireland and NI as that’s the only thing that made sense.

Good Friday Agreement Part 1 (Constitutional Issues) Paragraph (iii): the participants

"acknowledge that while a substantial section of the people in Northern Ireland share the legitimate wish of a majority of the people of the island of Ireland for a united Ireland, the present wish of a majority of the people of Northern Ireland, freely exercised and legitimate, is to maintain the Union and, accordingly, that Northern Ireland’s status as part of the United Kingdom reflects and relies upon that wish; and that it would be wrong to make any change in the status of Northern Ireland save with the consent of a majority of its people"

It did consider the status of Northern Ireland within the UK and said that that status can't be changed without consent of the majority.

[martin_p]

Good Friday Agreement Part 1 (Constitutional Issues) Paragraph (iii): the participants

"acknowledge that while a substantial section of the people in Northern Ireland share the legitimate wish of a majority of the people of the island of Ireland for a united Ireland, the present wish of a majority of the people of Northern Ireland, freely exercised and legitimate, is to maintain the Union and, accordingly, that Northern Ireland’s status as part of the United Kingdom reflects and relies upon that wish; and that it would be wrong to make any change in the status of Northern Ireland save with the consent of a majority of its people"

It did consider the status of Northern Ireland within the UK and said that that status can't be changed without consent of the majority.

The status won’t be changed, it’ll still be part of the UK.

[RingoMcCartney]

It isn’t.

Whether it is or it isn't. I'm more than happy carrying on consistently being on the winning side of repeated expressions of democracy! Where as you!.......

Dont fret though. The one particular example of breaking international law , despite the EU and Germany doing it recently, and Cameron and tony Bliar doing it, which is upsetting so much. Has to pass through the House of Lords , where , as with all previous speakers of the House your hero, John Bercow will be to scupper its progress.

Oh hang on!!!!!

[dsr]

The status won’t be changed, it’ll still be part of the UK.

I think you might need counsel's opinion on that one.

[martin_p]

I think you might need counsel's opinion on that one.

But you said it was ‘explicit’ in the Good Friday Agreement. Do you have any legal opinion to back up your interpretation of ‘status’?

[GodIsADeeJay81]

So you agree that breaking international law isn’t a good idea then!

If the EU are making unreasonable threats, which you don't seem to mind, then I'm not against the UK gov looking after it's people.

[dsr]

But you said it was ‘explicit’ in the Good Friday Agreement. Do you have any legal opinion to back up your interpretation of ‘status’?

To be honest, I thought it was explicit. I didn't realise that there would be people who thought the term gave Westminster carte blanche to change the status of the Province short of expelling them.

No, I don't have legal opinion that says that Northern Ireland's status within the UK can be altered without their consent.

[martin_p]

To be honest, I thought it was explicit. I didn't realise that there would be people who thought the term gave Westminster carte blanche to change the status of the Province short of expelling them.

No, I don't have legal opinion that says that Northern Ireland's status within the UK can be altered without their consent.

That’s probably because no one shares your interpretation. Surely the government lawyers would have been jumping up and down if there was anything in this.

[martin_p]

If the EU are making unreasonable threats, which you don't seem to mind, then I'm not against the UK gov looking after it's people.

So you aren’t bothered about sanctions then.

But why break the law just to avoid a few things attracting tariffs when going from GB to NI (which is what the internal market bill will enable)?

There might be some sympathy for a country that breaks the law to feed its citizens but there’ll be little for a country that breaks the law to save on the costs and inconvenience of a deal signed in good faith.

[GodIsADeeJay81]

So you aren’t bothered about sanctions then.

But why break the law just to avoid a few things attracting tariffs when going from GB to NI (which is what the internal market bill will enable)?

There might be some sympathy for a country that breaks the law to feed its citizens but there’ll be little for a country that breaks the law to save on the costs and inconvenience of a deal signed in good faith.

Let's see what happens then, unless you really want to keep batting this back and forth.

I'll take sanctions for ensuring British people have food delivered, that's about it
If the EU took us to court just for that then they look pretty stupid

[martin_p]

Let's see what happens then, unless you really want to keep batting this back and forth.

I'll take sanctions for ensuring British people have food delivered, that's about it
If the EU took us to court just for that then they look pretty stupid

Ok, so in conclusion you don’t support the internal market bill.

[GodIsADeeJay81]

Ok, so in conclusion you don’t support the internal market bill.

Conclude whatever you want if it helps you sleep.

[martin_p]

Conclude whatever you want if it helps you sleep.

It won’t. Just working the debate through to the logical conclusion.

[timshorts]

That’s probably because no one shares your interpretation. Surely the government lawyers would have been jumping up and down if there was anything in this.

Like the previous attorney general, for example.

[martin_p]

Like the previous attorney general, for example.

He’s not a government lawyer is he? Besides, if you’re going to cite Cox he’s against the internal market bill.

[GodIsADeeJay81]

https://apnews.com/ab9ad2342f7c475eb45de8b54298f25e

So this might help explain why the EU and USA don't have an FTA.

They've been fighting for 15 yrs via the WTO over illegal subsidies by both sides for their plane manufacturers.

[Spijed]

No USA deal if the bill isn't pulled

https://mobile.twitter.com/SamCoatesSky ... 7036445698

[Burnley Ace]

No USA deal if the bill isn't pulled

https://mobile.twitter.com/SamCoatesSky ... 7036445698

Given the number of “international laws” that the US ignore we shouldn’t be signing a deal with them.

[Burnley Ace]

No USA deal if the bill isn't pulled

https://mobile.twitter.com/SamCoatesSky ... 7036445698

Having read the letter it’s a bit vague and perhaps they should have waited to see (Or fully understand) what the implications were before making threats (or interfering in the democratic process of another country).

Just imagine the response if a group of UK MPs wrote a similar letter to the US President!!

[martin_p]

Having read the letter it’s a bit vague and perhaps they should have waited to see (Or fully understand) what the implications were before making threats (or interfering in the democratic process of another country).

Just imagine the response if a group of UK MPs wrote a similar letter to the US President!!

Or if we found some hostile state were interfering in our democratic process behind our backs and were doing nothing about it!

[Stalbansclaret]

"Ringo McCartney
Grayson Perry says right-wing people are ‘friendlier and more open’ than the left

Grayson Perry says that left-wing people have a “tribal culture” that encourages feeling guilty and are less “friendly” than their right-wing counterparts.

“The left is more venal and has more antipathy to the opposition than the other way round,” Perry said. “I would say the right on average are friendlier and more open.” "


Ah..OK then. If Grayson Perry says it it must be true. I remember back at school ,when I was about 11, my teacher explaining that people reinforce their own mindsets by seeking out and only taking notice of things that support their existing opinions. The noise in your personal echo-chamber must, on the evidence of this thread, be absolutely deafening.

[Devils_Advocate]

Having read the letter it’s a bit vague and perhaps they should have waited to see (Or fully understand) what the implications were before making threats (or interfering in the democratic process of another country).

Just imagine the response if a group of UK MPs wrote a similar letter to the US President!!

Trouble is we've opted to make ourselves a little fish out on our own in the biggest pond so what we can get away with and what the USA, China (and even the EU) can get away with is very different

Bleating about other countrys not playing fair or spouting pointless whataboutery isnt gonna get us the trade deals we need and we are probably gonna learn over the next few years how strong being part of the EU (and a leading player) actually made us on the world stage

[Spijed]

Given the number of “international laws” that the US ignore we shouldn’t be signing a deal with them.

So is this another "They need us more than we need them"?

[theboydonegood]

There is no answer to the NI/I border that is workable whilst leaving the EU and looking for the level of access to the single market we want - that is no longer project fear its project reality.

TBDG

[Jakubclaret]

There is no answer to the NI/I border that is workable whilst leaving the EU and looking for the level of access to the single market we want - that is no longer project fear its project reality.

TBDG

Other than ignoring the GFA & allowing ireland to become unified, that's what some of us suggested as soon as the border issue became a problem, we seem to be clinging to problems when there's no need to cling to problems, let them have a referendum & decide there future.

[GodIsADeeJay81]

Other than ignoring the GFA & allowing ireland to become unified, that's what some of us suggested as soon as the border issue became a problem, we seem to be clinging to problems when there's no need to cling to problems, let them have a referendum & decide there future.

Issue there is if N.Ireland gets one, the Scots will want another.

[Jakubclaret]

Issue there is if N.Ireland gets one, the Scots will want another.

Ram on, we don't need anybody who doesn't want to be part of us, I don't understand why we try to deny people freedom of choice we seem to be ideologically opposed to letting people choose & decide things & not just on a political level.

[GodIsADeeJay81]

Ram on, we don't need anybody who doesn't want to be part of us, I don't understand why we try to deny people freedom of choice we seem to be ideologically opposed to letting people choose & decide things & not just on a political level.

How regularly do you let those nations vote?
We've had 2 on Europe in 40 odd yrs.

SNP have wanted another since they lost the first one.
If they lose another they'll just ask for another etc.

Do we tell N.Ireland they can have one if they wish but can't have another for 10yrs minimum.
Should've done that with Scotland tbh.

[Jakubclaret]

How regularly do you let those nations vote?
We've had 2 on Europe in 40 odd yrs.

SNP have wanted another since they lost the first one.
If they lose another they'll just ask for another etc.

Do we tell N.Ireland they can have one if they wish but can't have another for 10yrs minimum.
Should've done that with Scotland tbh.

You either in or out, let the people decide & there's no going back that's the way it should be done, a landmark referendum on a massive scale, set the paperwork up accordingly to be signed off & approved & enshrined in law or if that's too extreme set a decade timetable in motion so in every 10 years you automatically ask the people.

[Rowls]

Btw, you haven't provided any facts to show that our trade deal with Japan is far superior.

The thing I like about our trade deal with Japan is that we struck it ourselves as a sovereign nation.

The terms of the deal are pretty much identical to deal the EU has with Japan. except ours is better than the EU's.

Ours is better because we don't have to be constricted by EU trade restrictions, tariffs and customs whilst we getting same trading deal with Japan.

Oh and we maintain our national sovereignty too.

[aggi]

The thing I like about our trade deal with Japan is that we struck it ourselves as a sovereign nation.

The terms of the deal are pretty much identical to deal the EU has with Japan. except ours is better than the EU's.

Ours is better because we don't have to be constricted by EU trade restrictions, tariffs and customs whilst we getting same trading deal with Japan.

Oh and we maintain our national sovereignty too.

The main issue with the above, as I mentioned earlier on this thread, is it isn't actually true.

For some of those items with quotas the UK gets the quota that is left over after the EU have taken what they want. If the EU use their full quota then we don't get any additional quota for exporting our cheese, etc

We've moved from being part of the discussion on how those EU quotas get divvied up to waiting for the crumbs to fall off the table.

[Devils_Advocate]

The main issue with the above, as I mentioned earlier on this thread, is it isn't actually true.

For some of those items with quotas the UK gets the quota that is left over after the EU have taken what they want. If the EU use their full quota then we don't get any additional quota for exporting our cheese, etc

We've moved from being part of the discussion on how those EU quotas get divvied up to waiting for the crumbs to fall off the table.

Yep but its the taking part and giving it a go that counts and it doesn't matter if you lose as long as you tried. I bet Liz Truss' parents are ever so proud of their little trier

[martin_p]

Here’s the Full Fact take on the deal. It’s inconclusive, but it doesn’t scream ‘better’. In fact based on the DTI’s own figures it’s potentially worse.

https://fullfact.org/economy/uk-japan-trade-benefits/

[JohnMcGreal]

How regularly do you let those nations vote?
We've had 2 on Europe in 40 odd yrs.

SNP have wanted another since they lost the first one.
If they lose another they'll just ask for another etc.

Do we tell N.Ireland they can have one if they wish but can't have another for 10yrs minimum.
Should've done that with Scotland tbh.

Does Northern Ireland need Westminister's permission for that? I thought the NI assembly could call a referendum if it had a majority in favour.

[Rowls]

The main issue with the above, as I mentioned earlier on this thread, is it isn't actually true.

For some of those items with quotas the UK gets the quota that is left over after the EU have taken what they want. If the EU use their full quota then we don't get any additional quota for exporting our cheese, etc

We've moved from being part of the discussion on how those EU quotas get divvied up to waiting for the crumbs to fall off the table.

Where are you getting this information from?

[aggi]

Where are you getting this information from?

The FT https://www.ft.com/content/1cb01980-ee8 ... 8c5b3b1807

For example, if the EU uses only 19,000 tonnes of its 20,000 tonne quota for low-tariff cheese exports, the UK will be able to use the remaining 1,000 tonnes. Asked whether that meant the UK could end up empty-handed, one official said: “There is headroom in these quotas.”

[Rowls]

The FT is notoriously pro-EU and I'm unable to access the full article. The quote you've given here is incomplete and it is being used as an example of something you haven't quotes.

I've not seen your claim anywhere else.

If you can provide more information we can look at your claim in more detail.

[Rowls]

The FT https://www.ft.com/content/1cb01980-ee8 ... 8c5b3b1807

For example, if the EU uses only 19,000 tonnes of its 20,000 tonne quota for low-tariff cheese exports, the UK will be able to use the remaining 1,000 tonnes. Asked whether that meant the UK could end up empty-handed, one official said: “There is headroom in these quotas.”

Here's a quote from a broadly pro-EU website, https://www.politico.eu/

After the deal was announced on Friday, however, trade experts said it will be hard to say exactly how far the U.K.-Japan Comprehensive Economic Partnership Agreement pushes beyond Japan’s deal with the EU until they get their hands on the details of the text.

If what they're saying is true then how do the notoriously pro-EU FT know details that apparently haven't been made public?

[martin_p]

The FT is notoriously pro-EU and I'm unable to access the full article. The quote you've given here is incomplete and it is being used as an example of something you haven't quotes.

I've not seen your claim anywhere else.

If you can provide more information we can look at your claim in more detail.

Here’s the section of the FT article that covers it -

One of the biggest sticking points was so-called tariff rate quotas in agriculture, which let European farmers export a limited amount of sensitive foodstuffs to Japan at a lower tariff.

Tokyo refused to give the UK any new quota, but for 10 out of 25 products covered in the EU-Japan deal — including cheese, tea extracts and bread mixes — the UK will be able to use any quota left over by the EU.

For example, if the EU uses only 19,000 tonnes of its 20,000 tonne quota for low-tariff cheese exports, the UK will be able to use the remaining 1,000 tonnes. Asked whether that meant the UK could end up empty-handed, one official said: “There is headroom in these quotas.”

[Rowls]

Here’s the section of the FT article that covers it -

One of the biggest sticking points was so-called tariff rate quotas in agriculture, which let European farmers export a limited amount of sensitive foodstuffs to Japan at a lower tariff.

Tokyo refused to give the UK any new quota, but for 10 out of 25 products covered in the EU-Japan deal — including cheese, tea extracts and bread mixes — the UK will be able to use any quota left over by the EU.

For example, if the EU uses only 19,000 tonnes of its 20,000 tonne quota for low-tariff cheese exports, the UK will be able to use the remaining 1,000 tonnes. Asked whether that meant the UK could end up empty-handed, one official said: “There is headroom in these quotas.”

Fair enough - we're no worse off than before then.

I'd expect this to be negotiated with the EU.

[martin_p]

Fair enough - we're no worse off than before then.

I'd expect this to be negotiated with the EU.

Well except we’ll be back of the queue when it comes to these quotas. And the EU has quotas for all 25 of the ‘sensitive foodstuffs’ and we only have potential access to 10, so 15 types of goods we’d have access to quotas for while in the EU that we don’t have come 1st January.

[Rowls]

Well except we’ll be back of the queue when it comes to these quotas. And the EU has quotas for all 25 of the ‘sensitive foodstuffs’ and we only have potential access to 10, so 15 types of goods we’d have access to quotas for while in the EU that we don’t have come 1st January.

I expect it will be nothing to do with actual queues and more to do with legal documents and trade deals etc.

Disappointing if Japan isn't yet prepared to give us separate quotas but we can negotiate and re-negotiate our own deals now.

Important to remember this is the first independent trade deal we've signed since the 70s as a sovereign nation in our own right. I look forward to trade deals becoming a talking point in politics and elections in the future. The more we trade, we more prosperous we become. It has nothing to do with size of the country (or trade block or customs union) and everything to do with negotiation and aiming towards free trade.

[aggi]

The FT is notoriously pro-EU and I'm unable to access the full article. The quote you've given here is incomplete and it is being used as an example of something you haven't quotes.

I've not seen your claim anywhere else.

If you can provide more information we can look at your claim in more detail.

I'd say the FT is often pro-fact which gets interpreted by some as pro-EU.

The UK has struck its first big post-Brexit trade deal after reaching a historic agreement with Japan that is expected to increase trade by £15bn a year.

The deal was reached after a compromise on agriculture under which the UK will have access to export quotas for cheese and other products that have not been used by the EU, said negotiators.

The agreement with Tokyo comes at a crucial moment for Prime Minister Boris Johnson as his move to unpick parts of the Brexit withdrawal treaty risks the collapse of trade talks with Brussels.

Parallel trade talks with Donald Trump’s US administration have stalled — to the disappointment of Brexiters — with the UK reluctant to give untrammelled access to US agrifoods.

Toshimitsu Motegi, the Japanese foreign minister, and UK trade secretary Liz Truss confirmed their agreement in principle to the new deal via a teleconference on Friday morning London time. The agreement is expected to be finalised in October.

This is a historic moment for the UK and Japan as our first major post-Brexit trade deal

Liz Truss, UK trade secretary
“This is a historic moment for the UK and Japan as our first major post-Brexit trade deal. The agreement we have negotiated — in record time and in challenging circumstances — goes far beyond the existing EU deal,” said Ms Truss.

“Strategically, the deal is an important step towards joining the Trans-Pacific Partnership and placing Britain at the centre of a network of modern free trade agreements with like-minded friends and allies.” The TPP is a sprawling multinational trade pact.

Alexander Stafford, a Tory MP, described the deal as “amazing” and said: “Brexit bonanza here we come.”

Yet officials confirmed that the deal was expected to add a mere 0.07 per cent to UK gross domestic product. By contrast, government economists have forecast a 5 per cent loss of GDP from leaving the EU customs union and single market.

The UK government said on Friday that the deal would yield a £15bn increase in UK-Japan trade but was unable to give a timeframe on this estimate.

Japanese officials also highlighted the importance of the deal as a bridge to the UK joining the TPP, which includes Japan, Australia, Peru, Malaysia, Vietnam, New Zealand, Chile, Singapore, Canada, Mexico and Brunei.

The deal replicates most of the existing agreement between Japan and the EU, but adds new digital provisions such as a ban on data localisation. That will allow British financial services companies and Japanese game makers such as Sony to operate from offshore servers.

London hailed the deal’s liberal rules of origin for biscuits and knitwear; new “geographical indications” for Wensleydale cheese and Welsh lamb; and more generous market access for its malt producers.

Tokyo said that UK tariffs on automobile and railway parts would fall faster than they would have done under the existing EU deal, creating new opportunities for its exporters. UK tariffs on electronic control units for automobiles will fall to zero as soon as the agreement takes effect.

“This maintains the benefits to Japan under the existing EU-Japan agreement and ensures continuity for Japanese business,” Mr Motegi told reporters.

One of the biggest sticking points was so-called tariff rate quotas in agriculture, which let European farmers export a limited amount of sensitive foodstuffs to Japan at a lower tariff.

Tokyo refused to give the UK any new quota, but for 10 out of 25 products covered in the EU-Japan deal — including cheese, tea extracts and bread mixes — the UK will be able to use any quota left over by the EU.

For example, if the EU uses only 19,000 tonnes of its 20,000 tonne quota for low-tariff cheese exports, the UK will be able to use the remaining 1,000 tonnes. Asked whether that meant the UK could end up empty-handed, one official said: “There is headroom in these quotas.”

Carolyn Fairbairn, director-general of the CBI business group, hailed the signing of the deal as a “breakthrough moment”.

“Business will help support the government in its efforts to secure more trade deals around the world and promote their benefits to communities,” she said. “The Japan deal can be the first of many.”

Fair enough - we're no worse off than before then.

I'd expect this to be negotiated with the EU.

It's possible, but I can't imagine they'll give us the same priority as they would their members.

[martin_p]

I expect it will be nothing to do with actual queues and more to do with legal documents and trade deals etc.

Disappointing if Japan isn't yet prepared to give us separate quotas but we can negotiate and re-negotiate our own deals now.

Important to remember this is the first independent trade deal we've signed since the 70s as a sovereign nation in our own right. I look forward to trade deals becoming a talking point in politics and elections in the future. The more we trade, we more prosperous we become. It has nothing to do with size of the country (or trade block or customs union) and everything to do with negotiation and aiming towards free trade.

Yes, but countries still want to protect their own industries and producers, that’s what quotas are for. If Japan feels it has the maximum amount of goods coming into the country that still allows its own producers to flourish then they aren’t going to increase those quotas. So the only way the UK will get separate quotas is if other countries/trading blocks reduce theirs. Markets aren’t infinitely big!

[Rowls]

I'd say the FT is often pro-fact which gets interpreted by some as pro-EU.

"Pro-fact" really isn't meaningful in this or any debate these days. The FT, whether you like it or not, is very pro-EU. It pushed for the UK to join the disastrous single currency and it supported the Remain side in the referendum.

You can call their stance "pro-fact" if you like.

It's possible, but I can't imagine they'll give us the same priority as they would their members.

That's for us to negotiate. I believe we can be far more flexible and dynamic than the EU when it comes to striking trade deals. After all, the EU needs unanimous support from 17 nations whereas we now have our own full national sovereignty.

It was a shock that the EU even signed the deal with Japan and part of me suspects that the impetous came chiefly from the situation with Brexit. Maybe it's just a coincidence?

Either way, the more countries, trade blocks and customs unions that sign trade deals the better. I'm not partisan on this - I'd love to see the EU signing more deals. I just don't like the EUs approach to trade and neither do I think their system is dynamic or flexible enough for the modern world.

It does appear that this single factor in the UK-Japan trade deal is not the best possible terms but neither is it any worse than our previous terms. When countries start to treat us as a full sovereign nation once again we can start signing many more deals and looking to open up access with more and more markets.

[martin_p]

"Pro-fact" really isn't meaningful in this or any debate these days. The FT, whether you like it or not, is very pro-EU. It pushed for the UK to join the disastrous single currency and it supported the Remain side in the referendum.

You can call their stance "pro-fact" if you like.


That's for us to negotiate. I believe we can be far more flexible and dynamic than the EU when it comes to striking trade deals. After all, the EU needs unanimous support from 17 nations whereas we now have our own full national sovereignty.

It was a shock that the EU even signed the deal with Japan and part of me suspects that the impetous came chiefly from the situation with Brexit. Maybe it's just a coincidence?

Either way, the more countries, trade blocks and customs unions that sign trade deals the better. I'm not partisan on this - I'd love to see the EU signing more deals. I just don't like the EUs approach to trade and neither do I think their system is dynamic or flexible enough for the modern world.

It does appear that this single factor in the UK-Japan trade deal is not the best possible terms but neither is it any worse than our previous terms. When countries start to treat us as a full sovereign nation once again we can start signing many more deals and looking to open up access with more and more markets.

It’s demonstrably worse than our previous terms for this single factor. In the EU a share of 25 quotas, out of the EU back of the queue for 10.

[Rowls]

It’s demonstrably worse than our previous terms for this single factor. In the EU a share of 25 quotas, out of the EU back of the queue for 10.

Like I said, Obama's "end of the queue" metaphor just does not work in terms of trade deals.

You strike a deal, the deal stands until it is re-negotiated.

Unless the deal specifically includes some kind of queueing system.

Maybe we've got an EU diplomat who is already camping outside the allocation centre with a folding chair and a cheap tent ready for they open up? Or maybe this whole queueing metaphor is useless. Who knows, eh?

I just think it's unlikely that will be the case.

[martin_p]

Like I said, Obama's "end of the queue" metaphor just does not work in terms of trade deals.

You strike a deal, the deal stands until it is re-negotiated.

Unless the deal specifically includes some kind of queueing system.

Maybe we've got an EU diplomat who is already camping outside the allocation centre with a folding chair and a cheap tent ready for they open up? Or maybe this whole queueing metaphor is useless. Who knows, eh?

I just think it's unlikely that will be the case.

What about ‘left over’ isn’t clear? Basically Japan are saying ‘you sort it out with the EU’ but it’s still an EU quota, the UK doesn’t have one. If the EU take up their full quota there’ll be none for the UK. Now we can try to negotiate a defined share of the quota with the EU but given we’re currently struggling to negotiate any sort of trade deal with them then you’d have to be a real optimist to expect them to give up much, if anything.

[Rowls]

What about ‘left over’ isn’t clear? Basically Japan are saying ‘you sort it out with the EU’ but it’s still an EU quota, the UK doesn’t have one. If the EU take up their full quota there’ll be none for the UK. Now we can try to negotiate a defined share of the quota with the EU but given we’re currently struggling to negotiate any sort of trade deal with them then you’d have to be a real optimist to expect them to give up much, if anything.

I understand the words "left over" martin, what we disagree upon is how relevant they are. They come from the FT, not the trade deal.

It is now for us to negotiate with the EU. If the EU don't want to negotiate in good faith we'll need to go back to Japan and re-negotiate with them.

Not ideal but we are, at least, now negotiating deals as our own sovereign nation.

I'm still not sure how the FT has this information though given that other establishments are saying it hasn't been released.

I do think you've got a very blinkered and poor grasp of how trade deals work. It's a case of trade. There isn't a "winner" and a "loser" just as you don't "win" your groceries down the shops to the grocer's loss; you BUY them by exchanging money for them. Both sides get something out of the exchange.

Admittedly, it appears that the EU shares your view on trade. That's why I think we're better off out, sadly.

If you stop viewing trade as a political tool and start looking at how it provides us with fantastic economic benefits you'd maybe start to see the benefits and understand why it is in the EU's best interests to negotiate in good faith.