Wow BJ eviscerates the EU!!!

[martin_p]

I understand the words "left over" martin, what we disagree upon is how relevant they are. They come from the FT, not the trade deal.

It is now for us to negotiate with the EU. If the EU don't want to negotiate in good faith we'll need to go back to Japan and re-negotiate with them.

Not ideal but we are, at least, now negotiating deals as our own sovereign nation.

I'm still not sure how the FT has this information though given that other establishments are saying it hasn't been released.

I do think you've got a very blinkered and poor grasp of how trade deals work. It's a case of trade. There isn't a "winner" and a "loser" just as you don't "win" your groceries down the shops; you BUY them by exchanging money for them. Both sides get something out of the exchange.

Admittedly, it appears that the EU shares your view on trade. That's why I think we're better off out, sadly.

If you stop viewing trade as a political tool and start looking at how it provides us with fantastic economic benefits you'd maybe start to see the benefits and understand why it is in the EU's best interests to negotiate in good faith.

Yes, but the EU - Japan deal gives us more opportunities for trade in those 25 area than the UK - Japan deal does, that’s very clear whether you like it or not.

The info on quotas was also in The Express if you’re more likely to believe it from them.

[Rowls]

Yes, but the EU - Japan deal gives us more opportunities for trade in those 25 area than the UK - Japan deal does, that’s very clear whether you like it or not.

The info on quotas was also in The Express if you’re more likely to believe it from them.

I didn't see the info in the Express but even still, they only make up a small amount of the trade deal.

What 25 areas are you talking about?

[martin_p]

I didn't see the info in the Express but even still, they only make up a small amount of the trade deal.

What 25 areas are you talking about?

The 25 ‘special foodstuffs’ mentioned in the FT article of which we’re only getting access (if the EU allow) to ten. They are mainly grain and milk product related, that’s why cheese and malt have been mentioned.

[aggi]

Like I said, Obama's "end of the queue" metaphor just does not work in terms of trade deals.

You strike a deal, the deal stands until it is re-negotiated.

Unless the deal specifically includes some kind of queueing system.

Maybe we've got an EU diplomat who is already camping outside the allocation centre with a folding chair and a cheap tent ready for they open up? Or maybe this whole queueing metaphor is useless. Who knows, eh?

I just think it's unlikely that will be the case.

You're probably going to need to provide some evidence if you want to convince people that the FT has that wrong.

Also, the pro-EU Telegraph

Hopes of a deal in August, when Motegi visited London, were dashed by a disagreement over agriculture, reportedly Stilton cheese.

Now the two sides have reached a compromise. The UK will get the scraps of the EU’s tariff-free quota, meaning UK producers can have whatever EU producers do not use.

I was amused by this part in the Telegraph

The Department for International Trade (DIT) estimates that as a result of the agreement, the UK economy will grow by 0.07pc in the unspecified “long term”, with trade between the world’s third and sixth-largest economies increasing by £15.2bn.

Experts emphasise this is compared to no deal being negotiated with Japan, rather than if the status quo – the EU’s deal with Japan – continued. DIT says it has not modelled the latter

[Rowls]

The 25 ‘special foodstuffs’ mentioned in the FT article of which we’re only getting access (if the EU allow) to ten. They are mainly grain and milk product related, that’s why cheese and malt have been mentioned.

This article from "Full Fact" states that the government are claiming the deal guarantees us further protections and access than we would have had if we had remained in the EU and stuck with the communal "one size fits all" EU-Japan deal.

https://fullfact.org/economy/uk-japan-trade-benefits/

It specifically states that "malt producers" will have more access. I'm not sure how this information can be squared with the claim that we are reliant on EU giving us (or choosing to withold) quotas.

I suspect there's more to it than meets the eye and the full details have not yet arisen. We shall have to wait and see.

You're probably going to need to provide some evidence if you want to convince people that the FT has that wrong.

I don't know what you mean here aggi because I wasn't talking about the FT in the passage you quoted?

[Rowls]

Anyway guys, I'm off out for a swim now thanks.

In summary, regardless of the minutae of any specific sections of specific trade deals - I'm happier having a UK government negotiating on our behalf rather than an EU representative.

It's my opinion that EU-style customs unions are a very protectionist and twentieth century structure in an increasingly global and prosperous world.

Nice to chat amiably about though, all the best,

Rowls

UTC

[CombatClaret]

The people who once championed the 'oven ready' deal on here are now the ones championing the statement that it is not viable.

As usual Brexit falls apart when you try to write it down.

[Burnley Ace]

Hopes of a deal in August, when Motegi visited London, were dashed by a disagreement over agriculture, reportedly Stilton cheese.

Now the two sides have reached a compromise. The UK will get the scraps of the EU’s tariff-free quota, meaning UK producers can have whatever EU producers do not use. [[/b]r

Stilton is PDO so the EU quota is zero as they can’t produce it.

[Burnley Ace]

So is this another "They need us more than we need them"?

No it’s just taking a principled position. Do you think we should be negotiating deals with countries that unilaterally withdraw from or pass national legislation to negate international treaties?

[Rowls]

No it’s just taking a principled position. Do you think we should be negotiating deals with countries that unilaterally withdraw from or pass national legislation to negate international treaties?

That's a very principled position to take.

However, if you take that position there probably isn't a country in the world with whom you'd be able to trade.

[martin_p]

Stilton is PDO so the EU quota is zero as they can’t produce it.

Except the quota is for cheese not Stilton cheese.

[Rowls]

Except the quota is for cheese not Stilton cheese.

But stilton *IS* cheese and we don't know the details of the deal yet...

[aggi]

Except the quota is for cheese not Stilton cheese.

It appears that there are different quotas for different types of cheese (soft, blue, etc).

It's by no means a bad deal. Just a stretch to describe it as better than the EU deal which some have obviously leapt straight to doing.

[Rowls]

It appears that there are different quotas for different types of cheese (soft, blue, etc).

It's by no means a bad deal. Just a stretch to describe it as better than the EU deal which some have obviously leapt straight to doing.

If you have two identical deals but one requires membership to a secondary club which undermines national sovereignty where the other does not then I think it's fair to describe them subjectively, even if they are practically the same.

[Burnley Ace]

Except the quota is for cheese not Stilton cheese.

Yet the report said:

“Hopes of a deal in August, when Motegi visited London, were dashed by a disagreement over agriculture, reportedly Stilton cheese”.

It was quite specific.

[aggi]

If you have two identical deals but one requires membership to a secondary club which undermines national sovereignty where the other does not then I think it's fair to describe them subjectively, even if they are practically the same.

But we're not discussing two identical deals.

[Rowls]

We're going round in circles a bit now aggi.

[aggi]

We're going round in circles a bit now aggi.

I assumed we were talking about the Japan trade deals which categorically aren't identical.

I didn't realise you were just talking about hypothetical trade deals.

[Rowls]

I assumed we were talking about the Japan trade deals which categorically aren't identical.

I didn't realise you were just talking about hypothetical trade deals.

The EU-Japan deal and the UK-Japan deal are almost entirely identical.

As far as the UK is concerned, one requires EU membership, the other was negotiated unilaterally by ourselves as a sovereign nation.

[GodIsADeeJay81]

Does Northern Ireland need Westminister's permission for that? I thought the NI assembly could call a referendum if it had a majority in favour.

Would that be the Assembly that didn't sit for a number of years?

I don't know how it works over there tbh, I'd need to check.

[martin_p]

Yet the report said:

“Hopes of a deal in August, when Motegi visited London, were dashed by a disagreement over agriculture, reportedly Stilton cheese”.

It was quite specific.

It was too specific, the U.K. were looking for preferential treatments for our blue cheeses. Although Liz Truss claimed a major triumph all we’re getting is anything left over from the EU blue cheese quota.

This explains the ‘row’

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.ind ... html%3famp

[basil6345789]

Copied this earlier:-
We’re a sovereign country we can make our own rules the EU have broken every rule they have made and we’ve had to pay for it they have deliberately destroyed our industries over 46 years they want us to be a third world country fully dependant on them I’m with Boris all the way

[clarethomer]

https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics ... ike-pompeo

awaits sale of nhs and chlorinated chicken posts....

[martin_p]

https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics ... ike-pompeo

awaits sale of nhs and chlorinated chicken posts....

It’s another of those articles that doesn’t live up to the headline.

[AndrewJB]

Copied this earlier:-
We’re a sovereign country we can make our own rules the EU have broken every rule they have made and we’ve had to pay for it they have deliberately destroyed our industries over 46 years they want us to be a third world country fully dependant on them I’m with Boris all the way

I wouldn’t like to be the therapist of the person who came up with that.

The EU has spent a lot of money bringing member states up to a decent level. Even parts of Wales and the north east and north west of England have benefitted from this - and at a time when our own government seemed quite happy to let them rot.

As for our industries, our government made a conscious decision to pursue free trade and globalisation, that made it more expensive to manufacture things here. Other countries in the EU don’t have that problem, and the difference sits with their governments making rules (as ours could have done) to protect their domestic industries. It wasn’t the EU that forced us to privatise our trains, but our government that allowed their state train companies to buy our rail companies.

[dsr]

The EU has spent a lot of money bringing member states up to a decent level. Even parts of Wales and the north east and north west of England have benefitted from this - and at a time when our own government seemed quite happy to let them rot.

The EU as a sort of benevolent colonial empire? Not a fashionable political system, I wouldn't have thought.

[GodIsADeeJay81]

I saw today that the EU are finally going to try and enforce a minimum wage across their member states.

That should be interesting

[AndrewJB]

The EU as a sort of benevolent colonial empire? Not a fashionable political system, I wouldn't have thought.

It’s a club. If you meet the strict rule requirements (You’re a democracy, you have rule of law, etc etc) you can join it. You can also leave as we’ve seen. What you can’t have is the benefits of membership while not being in it.

I take it you agree with my other points above, so cool.

[Rowls]

The EU has spent a lot of money bringing member states up to a decent level. Even parts of Wales and the north east and north west of England have benefitted from this - and at a time when our own government seemed quite happy to let them rot.

Wow! It's like 2016 all over again!

[AndrewJB]

Wow! It's like 2016 all over again!

Are you thinking about the bus? And Gove telling the plebs they’ve heard enough of experts? 75 Million Turks? The easiest trade deal ever? LOL

[dsr]

It’s a club. If you meet the strict rule requirements (You’re a democracy, you have rule of law, etc etc) you can join it. You can also leave as we’ve seen. What you can’t have is the benefits of membership while not being in it.

I take it you agree with my other points above, so cool.

You mean we will no longer be able to pay the EU to civilise Wales? What a pity.

[GodIsADeeJay81]

Are you thinking about the bus? And Gove telling the plebs they’ve heard enough of experts? 75 Million Turks? The easiest trade deal ever? LOL

Any update on Osbornes emergency budget?

[NewClaret]

I saw today that the EU are finally going to try and enforce a minimum wage across their member states.

That should be interesting

How many euros will it be?

One of the things missing from this debate are all the rules and regulations the EU have and will enforce in future. That debate will get lost because they no longer apply to us, but they’d be raging hard if we hadn’t voted to leave.

[martin_p]

How many euros will it be?

One of the things missing from this debate are all the rules and regulations the EU have and will enforce in future. That debate will get lost because they no longer apply to us, but they’d be raging hard if we hadn’t voted to leave.

If we hadn’t voted to leave we’d be one of the biggest voices in defining those rules and would have an opt out of any of the major ones. Persisting this notion that (as Anne Widdecombe alluded to) we were somehow ‘slaves’ to the EU and not in fact one of the major drivers is to completely ignore reality.

[martin_p]

Any update on Osbornes emergency budget?

Yes, Osbourne resigned so he couldn’t hold one.

[Darthlaw]

It’s a club. If you meet the strict rule requirements (You’re a democracy, you have rule of law, etc etc) you can join it. You can also leave as we’ve seen. What you can’t have is the benefits of membership while not being in it.

Btw, you’ll need to subsidise quite a few other members of the club’s fees.

It’s like when the first ‘nice’ gangster turns up to explain the protection racket. Added the bit about the fees, Andrew

[NewClaret]

If we hadn’t voted to leave we’d be one of the biggest voices in defining those rules and would have an opt out of any of the major ones. Persisting this notion that (as Anne Widdecombe alluded to) we were somehow ‘slaves’ to the EU and not in fact one of the major drivers is to completely ignore reality.

How are we one of the major drivers? Thought the commonly held view was that Germany is the main influence in the EU and we were an insignificance?

And how do they define “major ones” that we might get an opt out on?

[martin_p]

How are we one of the major drivers? Thought the commonly held view was that Germany is the main influence in the EU and we were an insignificance?

And how do they define “major ones” that we might get an opt out on?

The UK, France and Germany were the main influencers in the EU, mainly because they made the biggest contributions. If we didn’t have influence how did we manage to get away with opting out of the Schengen zone and the Euro? The UK also had a veto it could use in a number of areas. We were as near to ‘having our cake and eating it’ as it’s possible to get in any partnership. Now we seem to want to have our cake and eat it without wanting to contribute to buying the cake.

The areas we could use our veto were defined, you can look it up if it interests you. The opt outs were usually associated with Treaties and negotiated at the time the Treaty in question was being defined, the biggest two I’ve mentioned above.

But it’s all a bit irrelevant now as that’s gone, but let’s not try and ‘rewrite history’ on what our role in the EU was.

[GodIsADeeJay81]

Yes, Osbourne resigned so he couldn’t hold one.

No one else became chancellor then to prepare the emergency budget that he was adamant would happen?

[martin_p]

No one else became chancellor then to prepare the emergency budget that he was adamant would happen?

The new government was committed to delivering Brexit and selling its ‘benefits’, there was no way they’d start that journey with an emergency budget whether it was necessary or not.

[GodIsADeeJay81]

The new government was committed to delivering Brexit and selling its ‘benefits’, there was no way they’d start that journey with an emergency budget whether it was necessary or not.

So Osborne was telling fibs then, because if it was really needed, it would've been irrelevant who was running the country

[AndrewJB]

It’s like when the first ‘nice’ gangster turns up to explain the protection racket. Added the bit about the fees, Andrew

We paid in as one of the richer members. Now we’ll be spending more than that on regulations.

[martin_p]

So Osborne was telling fibs then, because if it was really needed, it would've been irrelevant who was running the country

What’s needed and what politicians do are completely different things (and also a matter of political opinion). Had the new chancellor said ‘we’re having a budget because of Brexit’ it would have been political suicide!

[AndrewJB]

So Osborne was telling fibs then, because if it was really needed, it would've been irrelevant who was running the country

Did you ever believe anything Osborne said? “We’re all in this together”

[Rowls]

Covid wouldn't have happened if we'd only stayed in the EU.

It's all about having cake and eating it. Britain is a cake-filled misery-laden grey old island.

[GodIsADeeJay81]

Did you ever believe anything Osborne said? “We’re all in this together”

He was a remainer and telling the country that if we voted leave we'd need an emergency budget.

So are we saying that a prominent remainer who was number 2 in the country was lying?

Well I never.

[martin_p]

He was a remainer and telling the country that if we voted leave we'd need an emergency budget.

So are we saying that a prominent remainer who was number 2 in the country was lying?

Well I never.

He was lying in so much as he realised he and Cameron would be so damaged they’d have to resign in they lost and therefore the decision wouldn’t be his. And of course he couldn’t say he’d resign if Remain lost as that would have just had people flocking to Leave!

[JohnMcGreal]

How are we one of the major drivers? Thought the commonly held view was that Germany is the main influence in the EU and we were an insignificance?

I imagine that was a commonly held view amongst people who were drip-fed that kind of rubbish by the right-wing press for many years.

It doesn't make it true, though.

[GodIsADeeJay81]

Germany does tend to break the most EU rules, I'm not sure if they're ever really punished properly for it though.

[aggi]

How are we one of the major drivers? Thought the commonly held view was that Germany is the main influence in the EU and we were an insignificance?

And how do they define “major ones” that we might get an opt out on?

So if Germany is the main influence how come this trade deal is so difficult? I distinctly remember loads of Brexiteers (including the bloke who was negotiating the deal) saying how easy it would be because Germany would want to sell cars to the UK.