Dyche comments on potential financial help in sport

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Dyche comments on potential financial help in sport

Post by Loyalclaret » Wed Sep 23, 2020 7:15 am

Sean comments on whether the Premier League should help with financial help due to situation clubs find themselves in
www.theguardian.com/sport/2020/sep/22/g ... ncial-ruin

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Re: Dyche comments on potential financial help in sport

Post by MACCA » Wed Sep 23, 2020 8:00 am

Everyone in all walks of life should be helping things trickle down the line where they can, to keep the cogs turning however slowly they maybe.

I'm a firm believer everyone can help someone else somewhere at some point, its not as hard as you think when you think about it, and usually its quick and simple.
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Re: Dyche comments on potential financial help in sport

Post by Boss Hogg » Wed Sep 23, 2020 8:24 am

Don’t agree with Dyche’s comments here.

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Re: Dyche comments on potential financial help in sport

Post by jtv » Wed Sep 23, 2020 8:55 am

Boss Hogg wrote:
Wed Sep 23, 2020 8:24 am
Don’t agree with Dyche’s comments here.
To a certain extent I do. How many clubs are in financial problems ONLY because of Covid? True Covid has worsened their situation, but a number of clubs, especially those in the championship vying for PL glory, have been mismanaged and it was only a matter of time until the bubble burst.

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Re: Dyche comments on potential financial help in sport

Post by martin_p » Wed Sep 23, 2020 9:01 am

I think the point he may be trying to make is that it only seems to be football where the richer are expected to help out the poorer. When it comes to individuals and other businesses it’s the tax payer that’s stumping up the cash not rich individuals or well off businesses.
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Re: Dyche comments on potential financial help in sport

Post by Paul Waine » Wed Sep 23, 2020 9:03 am

Copied from Guardian - link above:

The Burnley manager, Sean Dyche, offered a dissenting view, saying the Premier League should not necessarily help. “If you are going to apply that rule of thumb, does that mean every hedge fund manager that is incredibly successful, are they going to filter that down to the hedge fund managers that are not so successful?”

Strange comment by Sean Dyche, though also strange of the Guardian to ask Sean about the Premier League sharing wealth with the rest of the pyramid. Views of some of the owners of the "big clubs" would have been the more appropriate for the Guardian to seek. A number of these will have connections with "hedge funds and private equity" - and sovereign wealth funds.
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Re: Dyche comments on potential financial help in sport

Post by Bordeauxclaret » Wed Sep 23, 2020 9:15 am

Dyche’s comments are from yesterday’s press conference. Not from an interview with The Guardian.

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Re: Dyche comments on potential financial help in sport

Post by Burnley1989 » Wed Sep 23, 2020 9:42 am

MACCA wrote:
Wed Sep 23, 2020 8:00 am
Everyone in all walks of life should be helping things trickle down the line where they can, to keep the cogs turning however slowly they maybe.

I'm a firm believer everyone can help someone else somewhere at some point, its not as hard as you think when you think about it, and usually its quick and simple.
Spot on

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Re: Dyche comments on potential financial help in sport

Post by Sproggy » Wed Sep 23, 2020 10:07 am

There is an argument in the EFL for the government to cover the revenue that would have been generated from reduced capacity attendances from October onwards but I'm not sure I'd want a portion of our revenue trickling down to prop up Championship clubs that might be spending way beyond their means.

I wouldn't expect government help to apply to Premier League clubs who rely less on gate receipts and are paying players tens and hundreds of thousands of pounds per week.

Time for football clubs to reign in their costs.

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Re: Dyche comments on potential financial help in sport

Post by conyoviejo » Wed Sep 23, 2020 10:23 am

Times like this and the Premier league teams are splashing out millions of pounds bringing new players in and paying agents abhorrent sums of money to improve their squads . Bale on a massive weekly wage for example. It's only a short time before the bubble bursts.

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Re: Dyche comments on potential financial help in sport

Post by aggi » Wed Sep 23, 2020 10:26 am

It is an interesting point.

Throughout this footballers and football clubs have been held to a higher standard than other industries.

I mentioned before that there was no outcry when JCB furloughed most of its staff, despite the owners earning something like £75m in the previous year, but when a football club talked about doing the same there was outrage.

Similarly when the government jumped on the "footballers should make a sacrfice" bandwagon whilst ignoring hedge fund managers, traders, etc.

It's an easy target to be outraged by.

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Re: Dyche comments on potential financial help in sport

Post by Clarets4me » Wed Sep 23, 2020 10:34 am

So we should give up some of our income to put it in the pockets of Stoke City ( Owners worth $12.2bn ), Portsmouth ( Owner worth $1bn ), Blackburn Rovers ( Owner's core Business worth $2bn ) etc, etc .. ??
Last edited by Clarets4me on Wed Sep 23, 2020 10:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Dyche comments on potential financial help in sport

Post by TVC15 » Wed Sep 23, 2020 10:35 am

Hedge funds are not the best example to compare against really.
Large corporate hedge fund companies are hardly likely to end up being one man band financial advisors on the high street in Accrington in the next few years.
Football clubs would do well to remember their roots and where many have come from because all but a small percentage have spent many a year on that “high street in Accrington” and even if they maybe a big player with all the riches of the Premier League now it does not take much to slide back down.
The richer clubs giving a helping hand to the poorest to try and maintain the 4 division professional structure which has been so important in this country would bring with it all kinds of benefits.
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Re: Dyche comments on potential financial help in sport

Post by hoskinsgoalatswansea » Wed Sep 23, 2020 10:38 am

I think he’s got a point. It might be a good thing, but why restrict it to football. Are companies that have thrived through this, like Amazon and Tesco, going to help out struggling street retailers?

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Re: Dyche comments on potential financial help in sport

Post by simonclaret » Wed Sep 23, 2020 10:41 am

hoskinsgoalatswansea wrote:
Wed Sep 23, 2020 10:38 am
I think he’s got a point. It might be a good thing, but why restrict it to football. Are companies that have thrived through this, like Amazon and Tesco, going to help out struggling street retailers?
Amazon literally did this: https://www.theguardian.com/books/2020/ ... -bookshops

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Re: Dyche comments on potential financial help in sport

Post by hoskinsgoalatswansea » Wed Sep 23, 2020 10:52 am

simonclaret wrote:
Wed Sep 23, 2020 10:41 am
Amazon literally did this: https://www.theguardian.com/books/2020/ ... -bookshops
Fair enough, and fair play to them, but I don’t thing this kind of behaviour is widespread amongst more successful companies.

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Re: Dyche comments on potential financial help in sport

Post by Stalbansclaret » Wed Sep 23, 2020 11:02 am

It's not really particularly surprising that SD ...a manager starved of funds in the transfer market...should be less than keen to see his club's funds given to others. I would resist assisting clubs in the Championship since so many of them either have wealthy owners and/or have indulged in dubious financial practice. There is also no way I want to see us heloing the club 10 miles down the road in any way whatsoever. When it comes to Leagues 1 and 2 , and below, however, I could not argue if the Premier League helped more (maybe not Sunderland !)

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Re: Dyche comments on potential financial help in sport

Post by Swizzlestick » Wed Sep 23, 2020 11:11 am

I think he could have worded the point better.

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Re: Dyche comments on potential financial help in sport

Post by TVC15 » Wed Sep 23, 2020 11:31 am

Swizzlestick wrote:
Wed Sep 23, 2020 11:11 am
I think he could have worded the point better.
Spot on. They just played it back on TalkSPORT now and it doesn’t come across well in my view. They are debating it now.
As I said hedge fund managers is a really daft example or comparison to use....we are talking about one of the most ruthless / greediest and lacking in morals or social conscience sectors you could think of.
Whilst I few might argue some parts of football and the Premier League have been going that way too in recent times I would not want to think a club like ours would be associated with this type of attitude to those less well off. That doesn’t mean we are a charity and we should be giving away tens of millions of the revenue we have earned and deserve by reaching the premier league. But it should mean that we understand that preservation of the football pyramid structure is important and that we can understand from our own experience and history that one day we may also need this kind of support.

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Re: Dyche comments on potential financial help in sport

Post by Paul Waine » Wed Sep 23, 2020 12:20 pm

Bordeauxclaret wrote:
Wed Sep 23, 2020 9:15 am
Dyche’s comments are from yesterday’s press conference. Not from an interview with The Guardian.
I assume the press conference was about tonight's game? Am I safe to assume a member of the media asked the question about Premier League supporting the pyramid? I wonder had Sean Dyche already been asked about Burnley's transfer dealings? I assume Sean had given his reply about "no budget."

Where are we all on hedge funds. private equity and any other potential new investor in Burnley Football Club? Good thing or bad thing?

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Re: Dyche comments on potential financial help in sport

Post by NewClaret » Wed Sep 23, 2020 12:29 pm

Hard to agree with Sean on this given the example he has used but two points I would raise about a bail out are:

- some of these clubs have very wealthy owners hoping to profit from a promotion. Should they be bailed out or should they find the funds from their own means.

- some clubs have spent ridiculously on players wages (some cases they outstrip income). Perhaps the players on these high wages should help out first. Many other people employed in the entertainment industry are not getting paid at all whilst footballers, on much higher salaries, would be immune in this instance.

I’d back a rescue fund more than a bail out at this moment.

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Re: Dyche comments on potential financial help in sport

Post by Paul Waine » Wed Sep 23, 2020 12:37 pm

NewClaret wrote:
Wed Sep 23, 2020 12:29 pm
Hard to agree with Sean on this given the example he has used but two points I would raise about a bail out are:

- some of these clubs have very wealthy owners hoping to profit from a promotion. Should they be bailed out or should they find the funds from their own means.

- some clubs have spent ridiculously on players wages (some cases they outstrip income). Perhaps the players on these high wages should help out first. Many other people employed in the entertainment industry are not getting paid at all whilst footballers, on much higher salaries, would be immune in this instance.

I’d back a rescue fund more than a bail out at this moment.
What's the difference between a "rescue fund" and a "bail out?"

Personally, I can't see any argument for government support to footballers earning so much as £1,000 per week, never mind those that are making many, many multiples above the national average wage. Yes, there will be some owners who have got the finances to meet all their player contractual terms. There will be others that can't.

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Re: Dyche comments on potential financial help in sport

Post by dpinsussex » Wed Sep 23, 2020 12:43 pm

Clarets4me wrote:
Wed Sep 23, 2020 10:34 am
So we should give up some of our income to put it in the pockets of Stoke City ( Owners worth $12.2bn ), Portsmouth ( Owner worth $1bn ), Blackburn Rovers ( Owner's core Business worth $2bn ) etc, etc .. ??
It is no different to asking the wealthy of this country to pay more taxes to support those whose own financial model is somewhat lacking.

Hang on a minute we do that in this country don't we?

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Re: Dyche comments on potential financial help in sport

Post by claret2018 » Wed Sep 23, 2020 12:45 pm

The comments were at best illogical. Being in League 1 doesn't mean you are unsuccessful as a business. Having no or little income through no fault of your own is not being unsuccessful as a business.

I agree with the principal though, it's not up to Premier League football clubs to bail out the lower leagues. If the government is stopping people going on games, it is up to them to either support the clubs or let them go bust.

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Re: Dyche comments on potential financial help in sport

Post by Chester Perry » Wed Sep 23, 2020 12:53 pm

I have been waiting for this to blow since yesterday's press conference - I thought @Marcotti made a fair retort

Thing is, hedge-funds aren't interdependent the way football clubs are.
By his logic, MUFC, LFC etc shouldn't be cross-subsidizing "less successful" clubs via PL TV deal + keep more $$ for themselves, since they attract far more viewers/revenue than, say, his own club.
Quote Tweet

https://twitter.com/Marcotti/status/1308415235942952961

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Re: Dyche comments on potential financial help in sport

Post by JTClaret » Wed Sep 23, 2020 12:55 pm

I think it's too soon for these types of financial help.
There's a good chance that we won't be back at Turf Moor this season, and if that's the case a lot of clubs will struggle to survive. If a premier league team helps a lower league team, but despite this the lower league team still can't survive, that also puts the premier league team in trouble, meaning even more clubs go under.

I wouldn't be at all surprised if that is the reason for the serious lack of activity in the transfer window, it's frustrating, but it'd be Garlick's fault if the club doesn't make it through Covid. Dyche making these comments would make sense with this in mind.

If we knew when fans could come back, then helping out is without question what should be done. But risking one club to delay the inevitable winding up of another would be foolish.
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Re: Dyche comments on potential financial help in sport

Post by clarethomer » Wed Sep 23, 2020 12:56 pm

I think the reality of the pandemic is now hitting fully square in the jaw with some.

6 months of no fans potentially- takes us to the end of March in a season that ends in May...

Where match day revenue is the lifeblood of a club then I can see why people are very much worried about this.

However, I don't think it's wise to get the PL to subsidise the football pyramid at this stage. Until they know what their finances are looking like given what is going on, it doesn't seem wise to take on other sinking ships if you are not sure how long you can float for yourself.

I know the model doesnt work for various reasons of growth etc but each club needs to be able to replace their ST money and the easiest way to do this in my eyes is to have an option to stream/show their own games and take payment for them. However I accept that the broadcasters will take that move as devaluing their contracts and what you lose here is likely to dwarf any small gains you get from selling broadcasting of your own games.
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Re: Dyche comments on potential financial help in sport

Post by NewClaret » Wed Sep 23, 2020 1:09 pm

Paul Waine wrote:
Wed Sep 23, 2020 12:37 pm
What's the difference between a "rescue fund" and a "bail out?"

Personally, I can't see any argument for government support to footballers earning so much as £1,000 per week, never mind those that are making many, many multiples above the national average wage. Yes, there will be some owners who have got the finances to meet all their player contractual terms. There will be others that can't.
Rescue fund - agree a sum of money that the PL pay to the EFL. Rumoured to be proposing £22m per month.

Bail out fund - No payments to the EFL clubs, but funds available to help rescue clubs that go in to Admin. In other words, their owners would suffer but the clubs would survive in that scenario.

I think in general the PFA should be stepping in & agreeing standardised wage reductions to a reasonable level first to help clubs though. Otherwise there will be far fewer clubs that exist to pay players anything in future.

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Re: Dyche comments on potential financial help in sport

Post by Paul Waine » Wed Sep 23, 2020 1:44 pm

NewClaret wrote:
Wed Sep 23, 2020 1:09 pm
Rescue fund - agree a sum of money that the PL pay to the EFL. Rumoured to be proposing £22m per month.

Bail out fund - No payments to the EFL clubs, but funds available to help rescue clubs that go in to Admin. In other words, their owners would suffer but the clubs would survive in that scenario.

I think in general the PFA should be stepping in & agreeing standardised wage reductions to a reasonable level first to help clubs though. Otherwise there will be far fewer clubs that exist to pay players anything in future.
OK, got it.

Re PFA, how is that going to work with their campaign against the L1/L2 introduction of player cost caps? I agree, there need to cost savings across all the football pyramid - and payments to players is where all the money is.

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Re: Dyche comments on potential financial help in sport

Post by CrosspoolClarets » Wed Sep 23, 2020 2:05 pm

To be honest Dyche is probably a bit out of his depth when talking about this kind of stuff - he isn't an economist. He gets asked a question, but he is a competitor first and foremost, from his point of view people shouldn’t help their rivals and in any event BFC are facing a hit too.

I feel the big issue here is that towns could become ghost towns if they lose their football club, a bit like the death of the high street. Lower league football gives us the chance to go to new places and chat to people in these small towns we would never otherwise go to. Similarly, in those towns there are lots of small businesses and charities who rely on the facilities the football club has. For example, if BFC went bust, that’s a major conference venue and evening entertainment venue gone with it - and Burnley doesn’t have many.

So for that reason government should step in if the PL will not. The normal rules of business that Dyche alluded to should be circumvented. They could apply a turnover tax on PL clubs and cascade it down as a support fund. Far better though for the PL, EFL and FA to agree an approach themselves. One thing for sure though - if nothing gets done, disaster will follow.
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Re: Dyche comments on potential financial help in sport

Post by dsr » Wed Sep 23, 2020 2:27 pm

The problem with big clubs using their profits to support the small clubs, is that big clubs don't make profits. They have more income, but it all goes out again on expenses = primarily wages.

If the vast TV income is to be shared out more fairly in the short term, or medium term, or as long as coronavirus lasts, then it really needs to come from the people who are receiving the cash - the high paid people. Owners, directors, and primarily players.

If the PFA got involved and made some sort of arrangement whereby all the players earning above a certain amount - say half a million per year - agreed to give a percentage of that money to a new PFA charity (tax efficient with gift aid) and that charity then paid a "social fund" payment to all pro footballers of perhaps a flat rate standard salary, then a lot more clubs might be able to carry on. The charity could also make extra loans to cover mortgage payments and so on as needed.

The ones with wealthy owners could top up the salary. The ones without wealthy owners could offer the players redundancy instead, if they couldn't or wouldn't accept the low pay. There would have to be loads of tweaks. For example, you can't pay a transfer fee or sign new players if you aren't paying the wages in full. And for example, either all players at a club get full pay or they all get reduced pay. But that would have to be the principle - if the PL money is to be used to subsidise the lower leagues, then the people who get the PL money now would have to be the ones who provide it.

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Re: Dyche comments on potential financial help in sport

Post by TVC15 » Wed Sep 23, 2020 2:46 pm

dsr wrote:
Wed Sep 23, 2020 2:27 pm
The problem with big clubs using their profits to support the small clubs, is that big clubs don't make profits. They have more income, but it all goes out again on expenses = primarily wages.

If the vast TV income is to be shared out more fairly in the short term, or medium term, or as long as coronavirus lasts, then it really needs to come from the people who are receiving the cash - the high paid people. Owners, directors, and primarily players.

If the PFA got involved and made some sort of arrangement whereby all the players earning above a certain amount - say half a million per year - agreed to give a percentage of that money to a new PFA charity (tax efficient with gift aid) and that charity then paid a "social fund" payment to all pro footballers of perhaps a flat rate standard salary, then a lot more clubs might be able to carry on. The charity could also make extra loans to cover mortgage payments and so on as needed.

The ones with wealthy owners could top up the salary. The ones without wealthy owners could offer the players redundancy instead, if they couldn't or wouldn't accept the low pay. There would have to be loads of tweaks. For example, you can't pay a transfer fee or sign new players if you aren't paying the wages in full. And for example, either all players at a club get full pay or they all get reduced pay. But that would have to be the principle - if the PL money is to be used to subsidise the lower leagues, then the people who get the PL money now would have to be the ones who provide it.
I thought that in the most recent recorded set of accounts and various summary analysis of Premier League (eg Deloittes annual report on football) that the majority of Premier League clubs did make profit and that the Premier League as a whole (ie all the clubs accounts aggregated into one) also showed an overall profit.

But irrespective I think that if clubs did have to contribute by reducing their overheads by say half a million a year to pay into some kind of rescue or bail out fund or whatever they agree is the best way of supporting clubs then this would be no great hardship for clubs and part of the "membership fee" for being in the Premier League and the vast riches that this brings.

I would agree with other posters though that there would need to be some consideration of bailing out clubs who have been blatantly reckless with their spending / finances. You look at the case of Bury and sad as it is for a community to lose its football club like this they were reckless with their spend and paying the likes of Jason Beckford £12k a week on a 3 year contract with the revenue / income a club like Bury generates is wrong on every level. Until there is a lot more governance around the "fit and proper" due diligence and also a process where clubs have to report their finances into a body who can monitor this and have some say in the way clubs manage their finances then Premier League clubs won't want to be putting in funds which they have earned and deserved into saving clubs like Bury, Bolton, Wigan, Macclesfield and many others who have got into trouble through their own poor management.

However, helping clubs out for things outside of their control like the current situation would seem a good thing to me personally. Not only is it a vital part of communities to retain their football club but also we have a four division structure which is probably the best and strongest in world football and as a club Burnley has benefited from this throughout its history....as have many other clubs.

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Re: Dyche comments on potential financial help in sport

Post by Clarets4me » Wed Sep 23, 2020 2:55 pm

How about each of the 20 current Premier League Clubs adopt a smaller EFL Division 1/2 Club on a feeder Club basis for the next three seasons, they could offer some financial and administrative support etc., players going out on loan ( giving them League experience ), the temporary use of the Training Centre facilities for a couple of days during International breaks ... possible use of ground for FA Cup ties or big games.

Suggestions: Burnley/Accrington Stanley , Everton/Fleetwood, Liverpool/Tranmere, Man Utd/Rochdale, Man City/Oldham, Leeds/Harrogate, West Ham/Orient, Crystal Palace/Southend, Wolves/Walsall, Fulham/Southend, Leicester/Mansfield, Southampton/Exeter, etc

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Re: Dyche comments on potential financial help in sport

Post by Stayingup » Wed Sep 23, 2020 3:10 pm

Paul Waine wrote:
Wed Sep 23, 2020 9:03 am
Copied from Guardian - link above:

The Burnley manager, Sean Dyche, offered a dissenting view, saying the Premier League should not necessarily help. “If you are going to apply that rule of thumb, does that mean every hedge fund manager that is incredibly successful, are they going to filter that down to the hedge fund managers that are not so successful?”

Strange comment by Sean Dyche, though also strange of the Guardian to ask Sean about the Premier League sharing wealth with the rest of the pyramid. Views of some of the owners of the "big clubs" would have been the more appropriate for the Guardian to seek. A number of these will have connections with "hedge funds and private equity" - and sovereign wealth funds.
Yes and not to mention Sovereign States and Oligarchs. Inteesting to see how FFP is dealt with in this crisis also.

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Re: Dyche comments on potential financial help in sport

Post by Stayingup » Wed Sep 23, 2020 3:12 pm

Clarets4me wrote:
Wed Sep 23, 2020 2:55 pm
How about each of the 20 current Premier League Clubs adopt a smaller EFL Division 1/2 Club on a feeder Club basis for the next three seasons, they could offer some financial and administrative support etc., players going out on loan ( giving them League experience ), the temporary use of the Training Centre facilities for a couple of days during International breaks ... possible use of ground for FA Cup ties or big games.

Suggestions: Burnley/Accrington Stanley , Everton/Fleetwood, Liverpool/Tranmere, Man Utd/Rochdale, Man City/Oldham, Leeds/Harrogate, West Ham/Orient, Crystal Palace/Southend, Wolves/Walsall, Fulham/Southend, Leicester/Mansfield, Southampton/Exeter, etc
Adding a bit of humour (excuse me!!!) how about Man City adopt us???

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Re: Dyche comments on potential financial help in sport

Post by Chester Perry » Wed Sep 23, 2020 3:14 pm

Stayingup wrote:
Wed Sep 23, 2020 3:12 pm
Adding a bit of humour (excuse me!!!) how about Man City adopt us???
no thank you - even when said in jest

Paul Waine
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Re: Dyche comments on potential financial help in sport

Post by Paul Waine » Wed Sep 23, 2020 5:05 pm

Stayingup wrote:
Wed Sep 23, 2020 3:10 pm
Yes and not to mention Sovereign States and Oligarchs. Inteesting to see how FFP is dealt with in this crisis also.
I think I read somewhere that FFP has been suspended for covid-19 period.

Chester Perry is most likely the poster who can confirm.

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Re: Dyche comments on potential financial help in sport

Post by Chester Perry » Wed Sep 23, 2020 5:29 pm

Paul Waine wrote:
Wed Sep 23, 2020 5:05 pm
I think I read somewhere that FFP has been suspended for covid-19 period.

Chester Perry is most likely the poster who can confirm.
FFP for the 2019/2020 season will not be assessed independently, rather it will be included as part of the 2020/21 assessment as it currently stands. It basically means that the current season was supposed to be one where you realigned you accounts to the new reality - though at present few clubs appear to have done that in the Premier League. A lot will be desperate to get unwanted players out of the door.
This user liked this post: Paul Waine

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Re: Dyche comments on potential financial help in sport

Post by Paul Waine » Wed Sep 23, 2020 5:42 pm

dsr wrote:
Wed Sep 23, 2020 2:27 pm

If the PFA got involved and made some sort of arrangement whereby all the players earning above a certain amount - say half a million per year - agreed to give a percentage of that money to a new PFA charity (tax efficient with gift aid) and that charity then paid a "social fund" payment to all pro footballers of perhaps a flat rate standard salary, then a lot more clubs might be able to carry on. The charity could also make extra loans to cover mortgage payments and so on as needed.
Hi dsr, do you think PFA setting up a "charity" to pay wages to professional footballers will qualify as a charity and receive gift aid?

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Re: Dyche comments on potential financial help in sport

Post by Bordeauxclaret » Wed Sep 23, 2020 8:03 pm

Paul Waine wrote:
Wed Sep 23, 2020 12:20 pm
I assume the press conference was about tonight's game? Am I safe to assume a member of the media asked the question about Premier League supporting the pyramid? I wonder had Sean Dyche already been asked about Burnley's transfer dealings? I assume Sean had given his reply about "no budget."

Where are we all on hedge funds. private equity and any other potential new investor in Burnley Football Club? Good thing or bad thing?
It was a press conference about tonight’s game. It wasn’t a question posed by The Guardian as your post suggested.

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Re: Dyche comments on potential financial help in sport

Post by Paul Waine » Wed Sep 23, 2020 10:45 pm

Bordeauxclaret wrote:
Wed Sep 23, 2020 8:03 pm
It was a press conference about tonight’s game. It wasn’t a question posed by The Guardian as your post suggested.
My second post said "Am I safe to assume a member of the media asked the question." Your response that "It wasn't a question posed by The Guardian.." made me take another look at the linked Guardian article.

Any thoughts why the byline states: Exclusive by Sean Ingle, Ben Fisher and Robert Kitson, Tue 22 Sep 2020 16.52 BST.

Why would The Guardian claim an "exclusive" if it was another jorno who posed the question to Sean Dyche?

Did any other media outlets pick up The Guardian's exclusive? They would be expected to state something along the lines of "as reported first by The Guardian."

Just curiosity on my part.

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Re: Dyche comments on potential financial help in sport

Post by dsr » Wed Sep 23, 2020 11:17 pm

Paul Waine wrote:
Wed Sep 23, 2020 5:42 pm
Hi dsr, do you think PFA setting up a "charity" to pay wages to professional footballers will qualify as a charity and receive gift aid?
I would have thought it was possible given the bright legal minds. If it is to give money to people whose employers genuinely can't afford it? Prevention of poverty is a charitable cause. It could work.

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Re: Dyche comments on potential financial help in sport

Post by Chester Perry » Thu Sep 24, 2020 9:13 am

Posted this on the MMT thread but fits here too

TwoHundredPrecent.com with a riposte to Dyches's ill advised comments from the Tuesday's Press Conference - I suspect he has cost the club and himself an awful lot of goodwill - I have noted before that Dyche has a lot of similarities with Alex Ferguson, this seems like another from that playbook, I just don't think it fit's our times.

Sorry, But Lower Leagues Need Charity to Survive
by Ian | Sep 23, 2020

It rather feels as though scales are falling from the eyes, at the moment. For the last few months, football has been staggering along, doing its best to act as though this was a temporary blip and that getting back to normal would somehow align with the start of the new football season. Fans at all levels of the game had to get used to the reality of life as we knew it coming to a grinding halt in a more general sense than merely football.

There were reasons to be cautiously optimistic about the return of the football too, if taken in complete isolation from the rest of society. The return of the game saw relatively few reported infections, the non-league season was finally scheduled to start, there didn’t appear to have been any Covid-related fatalities within the game, whether we’re amongst those who make their livings from it or the clubs themselves, there were even a lot of goals flying in, for those who watch the Premier League.

The problem, of course, is that football doesn’t exist in complete isolation from the rest of society. The lockdown is tightening again, and the cost to the game this time around could be catastrophic. Professional football – below the Premier League – was atrociously run throughout a period when there was money slowing into it than ever before. That it got through the first lockdown relatively unscathed feels somewhat miraculous, and even that required wage deferrals and financial advances.

This time, however, the game is left completely exposed. Money cannot be advanced forever. Players cannot be expected to tear up their employment contracts. If the lower leagues are going to survive, they are going to need outside support. The hammer blow fell with the news that the government is pausing its plans for the partial return of fans to stadiums on the 1st of October because of the rapid spike in Covid-19 cases.

For the Premier League, this is likely to be little more than a blip. These clubs are cushioned by lavish television contracts and are unlikely to find themselves in severe financial difficulties without match day revenues. But the lower you travel down the football ladder from here on, the more dependent clubs are on match day revenue, and you don’t have to travel very far down before they’re almost entirely reliant on it.

The hit is a double-whammy for those clubs that fall between these two particular stools. The National League had timed the commencement of their new season with the planned relaxing on restrictions at games, but now all clubs above Step 3 find themselves having the cost of putting on matches without anyone attending. The cost of this in League Two has been estimated at around £20,000 per match. And on top of this, clubs that have been taking advantage of the government’s furlough scheme also face that coming to an end in a couple of weeks time, with no announcement of any extension or replacement having yet been announced.

To a point, the National League has to face up to a huge tactical mistake, here. The league pushed for its three divisions to be classified in order to get last season’s play-offs played behind closed doors. This decision, however, now seems to have returned to bite them on the backside. Step 3 and below – one division below the National Leagues North & South – are for now exempted from the new rules and are able to welcome up to 600 supporters through their turnstiles as they are considered to play at a “recreational” level. The National League, however, is now classified as “elite” level sport, and is therefore now marooned alongside the EFL.

Financially, it doesn’t seem likely that the FA is going to be able to do very much. They announced at the end of June that they were making 124 positions redundant, with potential losses as a result of the pandemic being predicted to go as high as £300m. Indeed, even that only now seems to have been the tip of that particular iceberg. According to leaked papers published this morning, the men’s futsal team is being axed, and a proposed women’s futsal team will not be going ahead and, ominously, grassroots football – which is already practically on its knees for a lack of facilities – faces cuts of £22m per year.

The Premier League and/or its member clubs could probably afford to make some form of solidarity payment, but billionaires don’t become billionaires by displaying basic human decency, so the idea of the sort of money required to keep things anywhere near solvent across the entirety of the game being handed out without the most Faustian strings imaginable attached feels far-fetched, especially when we consider attitudes of the likes of the Burnley manager Sean Dyche, who said of the idea that bigger clubs should do something for their smaller brethren:

If the Premier League can do their bit to enhance the chances of other teams surviving possibly they may step in but does that mean every hedge-fund manager who is incredibly successful does that — filter down to the hedge-fund managers who are not so successful? Does it filter down from the restaurants, so the ones who are surviving can look after the ones who are not surviving?

You can’t just measure football on its own — there are lots of businesses out there that are making huge sums of money who could therefore protect businesses in their line of work. If you are going to apply it to football, you have to apply it across the country to everyone and every business, then you have a balanced and fair look at it.

Sean Dyche is, presumably, against his club being any part of collective bargaining for television rights, since this is really a form of wealth distribution. We trust he’ll be ensuring that he’ll be campaigning for Premier League clubs to negotiate their own television rights packages when the current contract ends, even though this would almost certainly mean vast increases in television money for the six richest clubs whilst Burnley’s would almost certainly look more like what they’d get were they in the Championship.

Or… it might just be possible that he’s just another hypocrite who believes that ‘handouts’ (as any sort of support for anybody less well-off than themselves have become known, so repugnant has British culture become when it comes to discussing such matters) are A Good Thing when his club is the beneficiary of them, and A Bad Thing when it isn’t. All we can say for certain is that these words may even come back to haunt Dyche when either his time at Burnley or Burnley’s time in the Premier League comes to an end.

His attitude, however, is probably fairly widespread throughout the Premier League, so this leaves the government as the most likely source of financial assistance. It was reported yesterday afternoon that they are planning a ‘rescue package’ for up to eight sports, though the efficacy of this will come entirely down to what any final packages look like. They could be very good, or it could be a mere veneer of gloss on a package which rescues very few but allows the government to claim that it ‘tried.’

Considering the amount of money they’ve wasted on face masks that didn’t work and that they’re intending to spend £100bn (a number so vast that it’s almost involuntary to spell-check it every time you type it) on a mass testing programme described by critics as “waste/corruption on a cosmic scale”, you’d think that they’d be able to come up with something that could keep our football clubs alive, as well as other sports that are suffering at the moment.

The chairman of Dagenham & Redbridge has told the Press Association that £20m would probably shore up the three divisions of the National League, so it doesn’t seem unreasonable to suggest that £100m would probably be enough to see everyone from League One or League Two down through this period as well. And yes, that does sound like a lot of money, but this is the point at which we’re duty bound to remember the craziness of football’s finances. £100m is definitely a lot of money, but such is the imbalance in football’s finances that it’s the equivalent to what Bournemouth made in Premier League prize & TV money for the 2019/20 season alone.

At the time of writing, though, it’s impossible to predict exactly what the future will bring. West Ham United players and the manager have been confirmed as having tested positive for the virus. Leyton Orient have had a number of players test positive for the virus. Orient couldn’t test because they couldn’t afford to and were only tested because they had a League Cup match a Spurs which was subsequently called off, costing them £125,000 in television appearance money.

Spurs supporters – because in all honesty supporters are the only people that we can trust to do the right thing at the moment – had, by this morning, spent £20,000 in the Orient online store to try and make up some of this financial loss. This seems likely to be the pattern for the next few months, of infection clusters popping up and leading to cancellations at short notice, but obviously no-one can say for certain how the rest of this will play out. It already feels as though it may yet prove impossible to end this season on time.

The FA issued a response to the government’s announcements this morning which proves little more than that somebody there has got a degree in the bleeding obvious, but it’s really difficult to say much else at the moment. All we can say with a reasonable degree of confidence is that lower division football down to the National Leagues North & South are going to need financial support from somewhere if they’re going to survive until next April without crowds being able to attend their matches.

If you’re a follower of a Premier League club or a member of the government and you’re happy for numerous football clubs to fold over the next six months, then carry on very much as you are. Otherwise, the money required to keep our football pyramid has to come from somewhere, so perhaps it’s time to stop telling smaller clubs and their supporters – who, by and large, have been more accepting of this financial distortion than any of the biggest clubs deserve – that they’re the problem and start doing something practical to help them instead.

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Re: Dyche comments on potential financial help in sport

Post by Chester Perry » Thu Sep 24, 2020 10:13 am

While looking at some of the condemnation of Dyche's comments I came across this which reads like it was written by long time poster and forum Stalwart PSTOTTO -

Scream If You Wanna Go Faster
Think Capitalism is Destroying Football? We Haven’t Seen Anything Yet…
JaHa

Aug 26 · 4 min read

It’s not as if the story has a beginning any more than it has an end. Humanity’s preoccupation with football was always going to be an opportunity too good to be missed; the Third Reich tried it, the Soviet Bloc used it, but no human could ever master it. No human? No problem…

By the dawn of the twentieth century football has been re-cognized as psychosomatic opioid. Doses arrive in distribution packages of blood, sweat and tears, paleoanthropological sedative masquerading as authentic tribal aggression, turf wars rage as acronymized human administrative bodies scramble for a cut.

Capital subsumes the overriding set of footballing multiplicities via self-modifying cybernetic sentience undeveloped until the near-future. Coding amplifies rivalrous dynamics, reducing the complexity of human struggle to a digit. The industry expands, markets overlap, productivity is paramount. In Kiev, Lobanovski foreshadows what is to come — by now the process is irreversible.

Honest-hard-graft dissolves into fractal assemblages of game-theoretic modelling, talent and skill are rendered impotent under the influence of axiomatic deference to the divinity of planetary hyper-commodification. There was never supposed to be a counter-attack against the machinic processes levering the desiring subject towards fetishization of extracted value — the futility of any such insurgency was written in the stars.

Temporal Inflexion Point: 1974 — — Cybernetic systematization was already present in the game long before the human claim of a totalizing model had been made. Total Football arrives from the future as a Seduction Machine; a cyborg femme fatale breezing through primitive Turing tests by smoking designer cigarettes, pouting her cheekbones and mouthing all the right words. She had us at Hello. >>1978: Totality is defeated by Argentine corruption in which Cruyff will not be complicit — humanity is disgusted by its own filth; the system comes out clean.

Berlusconi appoints Sacchi in a Teknik-singularity too potent to fail. Mass media exposes algorithmic synchronization leading to exponentiality of systematic arrangement. Cyber-ball goes viral and it never looks back.

America joins the party — it was only ever a Matter of Time. The simulation’s mask slips during the opening ceremony in Chicago, Diana Ross strays from the script but no-one bats an eye-lid, it’s the greatest show on earth.

Event sequencing blurs, each new competition becomes less distinguishable from the last. Everything is cloned — the players, the teams, the stadiums, the matches, the winners, and the losers, all wrapped up and packaged in focus-group approved psychometrically tested dopamine hijacking super-stimuli designed to numb all comprehension of anything Outside the immediacy of the Present. Nietzsche’s repetition-of-the-ever-same compressed into an infinite meta-series of instantaneous bytesize temporal loops. Attention spans truncate, nostalgia becomes pastiche, all feedback is positive, all circuits are closed.

The future is now a thing of the past. Capital and its Liberal operating system deny any conception of the unthinkable. No exit from cybernetic techno-fascist capture. Kroenkeianism is Capital and its prostituting your club on the global street-corner. Die-hards breakdown amidst the horrifying realization their clubs are being harvested, some turn the other cheek — it’s the more Christian thing to do.

Situational Analysis 2020: Sports writers [journalists] scratch out existences by performatively critiquing Capital’s hegemony and suffocating grip. Capital reterritorializes boundaries to create new markets for said critique. Anti-establishment protest is instantaneously commodified as rolling 24/7 news coverage. Reality TV never felt so real. Hyperreality check: nobody is ever held to account.

Eurasian oil hoarders and neo-Chinese Surveillance Gurus corner the market. Tekonomic Heavy Weights launder their facades paying top-dollar for victory achieved by artisanal means; aesthetics are weaponized. The Catalonian is lead mercenary; bespoke coaches become soldiers of fortune in a war that is already lost. Red Bull are cast as Girardian scapegoats, but they were only ever a symptom mistaken for the cause.

[[Zoom Out]] >> Paradigm Shift: Ontology is re-imagined, meta-physics re-defined. Reality is hyper-conceptualized as sentient rhizome, a Body Without Organs pulsating in Deleuzian schizo-spasms. The updated Operating System is a vast ocean with extreme localized variability; dead calm rubs up against swirling vortices. A new reality with Globalized Modernity caught in a whirlpool, accelerating towards the narrowing funnel-head ever since Presence became the dominant techne. Temporal loops increase velocity sucked inward by a strange attracter hidden just beneath the surface, paradigms shift at hitherto unprecedented rates; Heideggerian ‘essence’ of technology re-cast as time-splicing AI cyber-cop re-aligning history to meet her own uploading requirements. Cybernetics expand exponentially; humanity does the dirty work.

The System’s incentivized theory is rational computation — it’s the only game in town. Capital employs ‘data analysts’ under the guise of reverse engineering optimal player movements from game-theoretic axioms. Industry movers and shakers compare stats models oblivious to their role as avant-garde incubators for their own automation, AI plants its seed inside living human hosts — Alien, Terminator, fill in the blank…
Gameplay speed increases until the upper limits of human player capacity are reached. Development is maxed out, football momentarily stagnates, Capital reacts; substitutions are increased, fresher players = faster play > substitutions max out, Capital reacts by re-constructing moral justifications for player augmentation. Mark Fisher’s Capital as John Carpenter’s The Thing becomes ever more prescient; Capital as shape-shifting xenomorph//// Game speed accelerates as trans-human players exceed trad-human capacities.

Football as we know it is forgotten in an instant — <>— the only way out is through

Paul Waine
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Re: Dyche comments on potential financial help in sport

Post by Paul Waine » Thu Sep 24, 2020 3:20 pm

Chester Perry wrote:
Thu Sep 24, 2020 10:13 am
While looking at some of the condemnation of Dyche's comments I came across this which reads like it was written by long time poster and forum Stalwart PSTOTTO -

Scream If You Wanna Go Faster
Think Capitalism is Destroying Football? We Haven’t Seen Anything Yet…
JaHa

Aug 26 · 4 min read

It’s not as if the story has a beginning any more than it has an end. Humanity’s preoccupation with football was always going to be an opportunity too good to be missed; the Third Reich tried it, the Soviet Bloc used it, but no human could ever master it. No human? No problem…

By the dawn of the twentieth century football has been re-cognized as psychosomatic opioid. Doses arrive in distribution packages of blood, sweat and tears, paleoanthropological sedative masquerading as authentic tribal aggression, turf wars rage as acronymized human administrative bodies scramble for a cut.

************** I've edited out all the middle bit ****************

Football as we know it is forgotten in an instant — <>— the only way out is through
I tried reading it, honest, I did. But, I had to give up. To me it reads like something an early AI "football article" writing software app has written. Do you think there's a media outlet trying to train their computers (now in The Cloud - in the same tone as "The Claw" - Toy Story) to replace their journos and pundits? :( ;)

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