ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

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Woodleyclaret
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Re: Criticism of the Directors ...

Post by Woodleyclaret » Thu Dec 24, 2020 10:43 am

I accept directors as a necessary evil but they are businessmen out to make a profit
I also dont get some fans love in with our board,especially our chairman whose blocking funds to Sean hasn't helped in the last few windows

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Re: Criticism of the Directors ...

Post by Duffer_ » Thu Dec 24, 2020 10:46 am

It is highly likely that we will get relegated at some point in the future. What would you have expected to have happened under existing ownership, compared with new, say, ALK ownership?

Under the current ownership I would have expected us to rely on a combination of relegation clauses, the older stalwarts sticking around, and the sale of our most marketable playing assets. We would never have generated sufficient cash reserves to build an effective buffer against relegation. The player sale proceeds would be used, in part to fund the player wages shortfall, and in part to rebuild and rebalance the squad to make us very competitive in the Championship.

Under new ownership, I would expect the same BUT key player sale proceeds will be used to repay the debt created from the investment. The playing assets are effectively the security against which the investment is being made. That takes us back to square one in the Championship.

So, what is the net effect of this investment? It is the realisation of the playing assets NOW, in the pockets of the current directors, rather than in our potential time of need, i.e relegation. Now, if you always thought MG would do an Oyston and trouser the cash from player sales as Burnley slipped down the leagues, then there is nothing to see here. But if you were in any way relying on those sale proceeds for the benefit of the Club in harder times such as relegation, you may need to think again.
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Re: Criticism of the Directors ...

Post by randomclaret2 » Thu Dec 24, 2020 10:50 am

AfloatinClaret wrote:
Thu Dec 24, 2020 9:57 am
What's with the "no longer"? I've never wanted a takeover and would much prefer the club to remain locally owned; if that eventually saw us playing back in the Championship, or even lower, the so be it.
Were you happy with us being in the 4th Division for 7 years, close to extinction at one point, but ' locally owned ' ?

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Re: Criticism of the Directors ...

Post by Giftonsnoidea » Thu Dec 24, 2020 10:55 am

If the board bought one or two new better players than what we have there is no need for a takeover, this is basically what Dyche is asking for no?

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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by burnley007 » Thu Dec 24, 2020 10:55 am

Looks like we're just waiting for Premier League approval, which I can only assume is a formality?

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Re: Criticism of the Directors ...

Post by elwaclaret » Thu Dec 24, 2020 10:55 am

Can you imagine what the younger supporters would have made of Mr Teasdale’s time? They have no gauge and no idea, of what a bad time supporting Burnley is.
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Re: Criticism of the Directors ...

Post by tim_noone » Thu Dec 24, 2020 10:56 am

Dark Cloud wrote:
Thu Dec 24, 2020 8:15 am
IMO the directors have been brilliant for a number of years now and especially during the Dyche era. They have run the club well and prudently and as exactly as you would expect custodian/supporters to do. I would never criticise any of them as they've never taken a penny out of the club to my knowledge, it's never been about themselves or their own egos, unlike some chairmen and directors and they must have inadvertently spent loads in travel and other incidental expenses during their "labour of love". Fortunately for them they got really, really lucky with the appointment of SD and even luckier in that their shares which were worth next to nothing when they got into the club look like bringing them a hefty windfall. Good luck to them I say and I don't begrudge them anything they make, especially because making money was never their primary aim back at the start and never has been. I actually believe that they can see exactly what most of us can see and that is that for BFC to remain competitive in the PL (or even upper Championship) there needs to be investment well beyond anything they can personally afford and so they are gracefully trying to do their level best for the club by moving aside and selling out to someone they think/pray will provide that investment along with a safe pair of hands. Fingers crossed they get it right.
No criticism..... do You or anyone think the hierarchy at Burnley have taken no financial reward ...really?

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Re: Criticism of the Directors ...

Post by tim_noone » Thu Dec 24, 2020 11:00 am

DCWat wrote:
Thu Dec 24, 2020 9:50 am
You come across as a lovely chap.
He's only being Honest.....and not a bad Lad really.

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Re: Criticism of the Directors ...

Post by Rileybobs » Thu Dec 24, 2020 11:00 am

Duffer_ wrote:
Thu Dec 24, 2020 10:46 am
It is highly likely that we will get relegated at some point in the future. What would you have expected to have happened under existing ownership, compared with new, say, ALK ownership?

Under the current ownership I would have expected us to rely on a combination of relegation clauses, the older stalwarts sticking around, and the sale of our most marketable playing assets. We would never have generated sufficient cash reserves to build an effective buffer against relegation. The player sale proceeds would be used, in part to fund the player wages shortfall, and in part to rebuild and rebalance the squad to make us very competitive in the Championship.

Under new ownership, I would expect the same BUT key player sale proceeds will be used to repay the debt created from the investment. The playing assets are effectively the security against which the investment is being made. That takes us back to square one in the Championship.

So, what is the net effect of this investment? It is the realisation of the playing assets NOW, in the pockets of the current directors, rather than in our potential time of need, i.e relegation. Now, if you always thought MG would do an Oyston and trouser the cash from player sales as Burnley slipped down the leagues, then there is nothing to see here. But if you were in any way relying on those sale proceeds for the benefit of the Club in harder times such as relegation, you may need to think again.
What makes you think that there will be debt created from the investment?

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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by Vanders1994 » Thu Dec 24, 2020 11:01 am

You’d like to think it’s only a formality, however it dragged on for Newcastle but I don’t think ALK have links to piracy and a sketchy human rights record

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Re: Criticism of the Directors ...

Post by Duffer_ » Thu Dec 24, 2020 11:03 am

Rileybobs wrote:
Thu Dec 24, 2020 11:00 am
What makes you think that there will be debt created from the investment?
The investment is not a gift so it requires repayment before the investors can secure a return on that investment. Whether it is push down debt on acquisition on the Balance Sheet or not is irrelevant to that point.

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Re: Criticism of the Directors ...

Post by boatshed bill » Thu Dec 24, 2020 11:04 am

i'm interested to know the better informed posters opinion on the effect outside investment may have on the club's commitment to the local community.

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Re: Criticism of the Directors ...

Post by Bosscat » Thu Dec 24, 2020 11:07 am

joey13 wrote:
Thu Dec 24, 2020 9:08 am
Yet another sycophants thread with plenty of cap doffing and brown nosing , can someone pass me a bucket please .
You could stick it on your head Joey 🤣 then the only voice you would hear is your own 🤭🤭🤭

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Re: Criticism of the Directors ...

Post by Rileybobs » Thu Dec 24, 2020 11:12 am

Duffer_ wrote:
Thu Dec 24, 2020 11:03 am
The investment is not a gift so it requires repayment before the investors can secure a return on that investment. Whether it is push down debt on acquisition on the Balance Sheet or not is irrelevant to that point.
Of course it’s not a gift. ALK are paying a reported £200m and in return they will acquire a profitable business with high-value assets.

We don’t know how ALK are funding the purchase and whether this will create a debt. And any talk of their strategy in running the club is pure guesswork.

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Re: Criticism of the Directors ...

Post by Stalbansclaret » Thu Dec 24, 2020 11:14 am

Dark Cloud wrote:
Thu Dec 24, 2020 8:15 am
IMO the directors have been brilliant for a number of years now and especially during the Dyche era. They have run the club well and prudently and as exactly as you would expect custodian/supporters to do. I would never criticise any of them as they've never taken a penny out of the club to my knowledge, it's never been about themselves or their own egos, unlike some chairmen and directors and they must have inadvertently spent loads in travel and other incidental expenses during their "labour of love". Fortunately for them they got really, really lucky with the appointment of SD and even luckier in that their shares which were worth next to nothing when they got into the club look like bringing them a hefty windfall. Good luck to them I say and I don't begrudge them anything they make, especially because making money was never their primary aim back at the start and never has been. I actually believe that they can see exactly what most of us can see and that is that for BFC to remain competitive in the PL (or even upper Championship) there needs to be investment well beyond anything they can personally afford and so they are gracefully trying to do their level best for the club by moving aside and selling out to someone they think/pray will provide that investment along with a safe pair of hands. Fingers crossed they get it right.
Agree. We are a small town geographical-backwater club who have enjoyed 5 consecutive seasons of Premier League football and established a clear and proud identity, Look at our natural peer group......B'stards, Preston, Blackpool, Bolton, Hiddersfield, Blackpool......and consider how well the current board of local businessmen have done (obviously resting on Dyche) !! Consider how clubs such as Notts Forest, Sunderland, Boro,Sheff Weds must envy their achievements. Anyone seriously criticising them can't have much sense of reality.
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Re: Criticism of the Directors ...

Post by Duffer_ » Thu Dec 24, 2020 11:22 am

Rileybobs wrote:
Thu Dec 24, 2020 11:12 am
Of course it’s not a gift. ALK are paying a reported £200m and in return they will acquire a profitable business with high-value assets.

We don’t know how ALK are funding the purchase and whether this will create a debt. And any talk of their strategy in running the club is pure guesswork.
Not sure what point you are making here RileyBobs, or how that negates what I have said. I don't need to know their strategy to observe that, ceteris paribus, we have to generate £200m more "profit" in the new world to stand still, compared with the existing order.

It may very well be that the new investors can generate that in improved exploitation of commercial opportunities, but it is big ask.

Please humour me and answer my question: What would you have expected to have happened [if we were relegated] under existing ownership, compared with new, say, ALK ownership? For sport, let's say that happens within the next 2 years.

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Re: Criticism of the Directors ...

Post by DCWat » Thu Dec 24, 2020 11:35 am

joey13 wrote:
Thu Dec 24, 2020 10:23 am
Thanks
Merry Christmas
And a very Merry Christmas to you and yours.
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Re: Criticism of the Directors ...

Post by Rileybobs » Thu Dec 24, 2020 11:42 am

Duffer_ wrote:
Thu Dec 24, 2020 11:22 am
Not sure what point you are making here RileyBobs, or how that negates what I have said. I don't need to know their strategy to observe that, ceteris paribus, we have to generate £200m more "profit" in the new world to stand still, compared with the existing order.

It may very well be that the new investors can generate that in improved exploitation of commercial opportunities, but it is big ask.

Please humour me and answer my question: What would you have expected to have happened [if we were relegated] under existing ownership, compared with new, say, ALK ownership? For sport, let's say that happens within the next 2 years.
But they are buying a business that is worth £200m. So after 12 months, all being equal they could recoup their £200m by selling the club on. On this basis ALK don’t need to generate £200m of profit to see a return on their investment.

As to your question, we have seen what happens with our current owners in a relegation scenario. I would expect us to retain the core of our squad on reduced salaries, sell one or two of our prime assets, and target a return to the Premier League within 2-3 seasons.

I have no idea how ALK will approach this scenario. They have the same players with relegation clauses in their contracts, but perhaps they may have the financial flexibility to throw some money into the club to increase the chance of an immediate return to the PL. But that is pure guesswork.

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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by ClaretTony » Thu Dec 24, 2020 11:47 am

gandhisflipflop wrote:
Wed Dec 23, 2020 10:02 pm
A parting swipe in tonight’s press conference? Joking about the Christmas tree he said “it took me four years to get them to pay for a new tree that’s how the money can be in this place”
No, the Christmas tree story and not being able to afford a decent one has become an annual joke. Last year it looked really sorry for itself and was knocked over during the press conference.

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Re: Criticism of the Directors ...

Post by elwaclaret » Thu Dec 24, 2020 11:50 am

Rileybobs wrote:
Thu Dec 24, 2020 11:42 am
But they are buying a business that is worth £200m. So after 12 months, all being equal they could recoup their £200m by selling the club on. On this basis ALK don’t need to generate £200m of profit to see a return on their investment.

As to your question, we have seen what happens with our current owners in a relegation scenario. I would expect us to retain the core of our squad on reduced salaries, sell one or two of our prime assets, and target a return to the Premier League within 2-3 seasons.

I have no idea how ALK will approach this scenario. They have the same players with relegation clauses in their contracts, but perhaps they may have the financial flexibility to throw some money into the club to increase the chance of an immediate return to the PL. But that is pure guesswork.
It had crossed my mind that ALK could be acting as agents to sell to a third party sooner rather than later, and hope part of the negotiation involves commitments as to future conduct going forward.

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Re: Criticism of the Directors ...

Post by ClaretTony » Thu Dec 24, 2020 11:52 am

elwaclaret wrote:
Thu Dec 24, 2020 11:50 am
It had crossed my mind that ALK could be acting as agents to sell to a third party sooner rather than later, and hope part of the negotiation involves commitments as to future conduct going forward.
I'd cross that out of your mind
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Re: Criticism of the Directors ...

Post by elwaclaret » Thu Dec 24, 2020 11:53 am

ClaretTony wrote:
Thu Dec 24, 2020 11:52 am
I'd cross that out of your mind
In a good way I hope

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Re: Criticism of the Directors ...

Post by ClaretTony » Thu Dec 24, 2020 11:54 am

elwaclaret wrote:
Thu Dec 24, 2020 11:53 am
In a good way I hope
Yes

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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by Sheedyclaret » Thu Dec 24, 2020 11:55 am

Somebody'told me Michael dell was involved in the investment how true that is time will tell.
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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by Jakubs Tash » Thu Dec 24, 2020 11:57 am

Apologies if I’ve missed someone else posting this..... but Chris Boden tweeted about an hour ago that ALK expect approval/announcement before the Leeds game. Fingers crossed.
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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by DCWat » Thu Dec 24, 2020 12:00 pm

Sheedyclaret wrote:
Thu Dec 24, 2020 11:55 am
Somebody'told me Michael dell was involved in the investment how true that is time will tell.
Hopefully alongside Bezos, Zukerberg and Gates.
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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by arise_sir_charge » Thu Dec 24, 2020 12:01 pm

Far too many folk in here making wild assumptions about imaginary scenarios without knowing any of the actual detail.

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Re: Criticism of the Directors ...

Post by Duffer_ » Thu Dec 24, 2020 12:02 pm

Rileybobs wrote:
Thu Dec 24, 2020 11:42 am
But they are buying a business that is worth £200m. So after 12 months, all being equal they could recoup their £200m by selling the club on. On this basis ALK don’t need to generate £200m of profit to see a return on their investment.

As to your question, we have seen what happens with our current owners in a relegation scenario. I would expect us to retain the core of our squad on reduced salaries, sell one or two of our prime assets, and target a return to the Premier League within 2-3 seasons.

I have no idea how ALK will approach this scenario. They have the same players with relegation clauses in their contracts, but perhaps they may have the financial flexibility to throw some money into the club to increase the chance of an immediate return to the PL. But that is pure guesswork.
The profitability of a PL Club of our size is so volatile due to the constant threat of relegation. That is why the purchase price is basically that of the net asset value, which is primarily the playing squad. There is no mutilple of earnings being applied here. The playing squad, which previously was an unencumbered asset, is their security.

Of course the investor could 'double down' and invest heavily following relegation but the history of smaller Clubs says otherwise. You need to look no further than Blackburn to see how an investor might behave in such circumstances. The Venkys realised assets to mitigate their losses. The only surprise is that they did not trim operating costs further.

I would suggest a rational investor is more likely to prefer a bird in the hand, and sell our most marketable assets to mitigate their exposure. We are then facing a much longer term re-building phase and any advantage from our recent PL status is immediately lost.

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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by Top Claret » Thu Dec 24, 2020 12:14 pm

Don't get all this sentimental clap trap about the club being owned by local people, only thing that matters is the results on the pitch.

I have seen little interaction between the present board and fans over the last couple of years and they certainly haven't done the manager any favours in the last few transfer windows.

Dyche as got little support from the board over the last 12 months, he is the fella they should thank when the deal is finalised for their healthy profit, but for Dyche they could have been facing a very different future
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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by Tribesmen » Thu Dec 24, 2020 12:26 pm

So today would be a good day to wrap this up , but hey will settle before the New Year hopefully .

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Re: Criticism of the Directors ...

Post by NewClaret » Thu Dec 24, 2020 12:29 pm

ClaretTony wrote:
Thu Dec 24, 2020 11:54 am
Yes
Do you have any idea where the money is coming from yet Tony?

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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by NewClaret » Thu Dec 24, 2020 12:32 pm

Just reading a BBC page about a popular topic and one reporter wrote:

Right now, I’m reminded that the word “imminent” has, over the last four and a half years, become the most elastic piece of vocabulary imaginable.

Although, come to think of it, “deadline” runs it close.

And then there is the boat load full of Brexit clichés.

"Final push.”

“Eleventh hour.”

“Five to midnight.”

Apparently colourful phrases, increasingly shorn of meaning, bobbing around in an ocean of words, while we wait for the only ones that really matter.


Tell us about it....

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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by randomclaret2 » Thu Dec 24, 2020 12:36 pm

Jakubs Tash wrote:
Thu Dec 24, 2020 11:57 am
Apologies if I’ve missed someone else posting this..... but Chris Boden tweeted about an hour ago that ALK expect approval/announcement before the Leeds game. Fingers crossed.
That in practical terms would surely mean today then ?

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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by Hedontplayforyou » Thu Dec 24, 2020 12:58 pm

Sheedyclaret wrote:
Thu Dec 24, 2020 11:55 am
Somebody'told me Michael dell was involved in the investment how true that is time will tell.
:lol:

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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by keith1879 » Thu Dec 24, 2020 12:59 pm

Top Claret wrote:
Thu Dec 24, 2020 12:14 pm
Don't get all this sentimental clap trap about the club being owned by local people, only thing that matters is the results on the pitch.

I would have to agree with this.

In this regard however it needs to be pointed out that we finished 10th in the Prenier League at the end of last season...that feels like success to me measured against any sensible yardstick. The start of this season was awful but it looks very much as if this was due to injuries as our current form (statistically) is good and the football is improving also. (Edited for spelling)

Whether or not this is due to the fact that we are owned by local people is doubtful....but my impression as an ordinary fan is that we have had continuity in the boardroom (with some evolution when Mike Garlick/John B took over) ever since the late 90s and that this has served us well. Local or not these men have made more right decisions than wrong ones. Hopefully selling now is another good decision for Burnley FC.
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Re: Criticism of the Directors ...

Post by Dark Cloud » Thu Dec 24, 2020 1:00 pm

tim_noone wrote:
Thu Dec 24, 2020 10:56 am
No criticism..... do You or anyone think the hierarchy at Burnley have taken no financial reward ...really?
TBH Tim, yes I do, but then again I'm quite prepared to accept I might be a little naive.

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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by NewClaret » Thu Dec 24, 2020 1:15 pm

Sheedyclaret wrote:
Thu Dec 24, 2020 11:55 am
Somebody'told me Michael dell was involved in the investment how true that is time will tell.
A mega wealthy investor like that is a dream scenario and that wouldn’t happen to us. Looking forward to having some idea of where the funding is coming from though!

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Re: Criticism of the Directors ...

Post by ClaretTony » Thu Dec 24, 2020 2:20 pm

NewClaret wrote:
Thu Dec 24, 2020 12:29 pm
Do you have any idea where the money is coming from yet Tony?
Not a clue and that's a question that needs answering. I'd no idea with the others either. The only thing I am aware of is that the ALK bid is not just one or two investors. I don't think anything will be happening this side of the Turkey but confident of having new ownership by the time we are singing Auld Lang Syne.
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Re: Criticism of the Directors ...

Post by CaptJohn » Thu Dec 24, 2020 2:25 pm

ClaretTony wrote:
Thu Dec 24, 2020 2:20 pm
Not a clue and that's a question that needs answering. I'd no idea with the others either. The only thing I am aware of is that the ALK bid is not just one or two investors. I don't think anything will be happening this side of the Turkey but confident of having new ownership by the time we are singing Auld Lang Syne.
Wonderful time scale and puts it into a great perspective :lol:
Merry Christmas.

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Re: Criticism of the Directors ...

Post by dibraidio » Thu Dec 24, 2020 2:26 pm

Duffer_ wrote:
Thu Dec 24, 2020 11:22 am
Not sure what point you are making here RileyBobs, or how that negates what I have said. I don't need to know their strategy to observe that, ceteris paribus, we have to generate £200m more "profit" in the new world to stand still, compared with the existing order.
All things being equal I don't see what "ceteris paribus" adds to that statement. Any road up, it's not true. Obviously ALK are expecting something quid pro quo. We don't have to generate 200m, grosso modo we need to generate an acceptable return on 200m that's all. Other than that it's solito negotium.
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Re: Criticism of the Directors ...

Post by dpinsussex » Thu Dec 24, 2020 2:29 pm

dibraidio wrote:
Thu Dec 24, 2020 2:26 pm
All things being equal I don't see what "ceteris paribus" adds to that statement. Any road up, it's not true. Obviously ALK are expecting something quid pro quo. We don't have to generate 200m, grosso modo we need to generate an acceptable return on 200m that's all. Other than that it's solito negotium.
Can you get any more Latin into a couple.of sentences ? 🤣🤣

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Re: Criticism of the Directors ...

Post by Duffer_ » Thu Dec 24, 2020 2:40 pm

dibraidio wrote:
Thu Dec 24, 2020 2:26 pm
All things being equal I don't see what "ceteris paribus" adds to that statement. Any road up, it's not true. Obviously ALK are expecting something quid pro quo. We don't have to generate 200m, grosso modo we need to generate an acceptable return on 200m that's all. Other than that it's solito negotium.
Good luck generating operating profits sufficient to service a £200m investment in the Championship. :D

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Re: Criticism of the Directors ...

Post by CnBtruntru » Thu Dec 24, 2020 3:03 pm

dpinsussex wrote:
Thu Dec 24, 2020 2:29 pm
Can you get any more Latin into a couple.of sentences ? 🤣🤣
Sounds more like bullsh*t to me :lol:

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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by CnBtruntru » Thu Dec 24, 2020 3:05 pm

Reading some of the above post, Happy New Year Burnley?

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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by FactualFrank » Thu Dec 24, 2020 3:07 pm

randomclaret2 wrote:
Thu Dec 24, 2020 12:36 pm
That in practical terms would surely mean today then ?
Or Sunday morning.

It would be a nice boost.

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Re: Criticism of the Directors ...

Post by KRBFC » Thu Dec 24, 2020 3:33 pm

Duffer_ wrote:
Thu Dec 24, 2020 2:40 pm
Good luck generating operating profits sufficient to service a £200m investment in the Championship. :D
We are in the Premier League, ALK are spending £200M to buy a Premier League club.
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Re: Criticism of the Directors ...

Post by Duffer_ » Thu Dec 24, 2020 3:39 pm

KRBFC wrote:
Thu Dec 24, 2020 3:33 pm
We are in the Premier League, ALK are spending £200M to buy a Premier League club.
I think you might be missing the context but not sure it would make any difference. What is it about BFC that makes us worth £200m do you think?

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Re: Criticism of the Directors ...

Post by Leisure » Thu Dec 24, 2020 3:42 pm

Duffer_ wrote:
Thu Dec 24, 2020 11:03 am
The investment is not a gift so it requires repayment before the investors can secure a return on that investment. Whether it is push down debt on acquisition on the Balance Sheet or not is irrelevant to that point.
You mean just like at Ewood? ;)

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Re: Criticism of the Directors ...

Post by Leisure » Thu Dec 24, 2020 3:52 pm

Duffer_ wrote:
Thu Dec 24, 2020 3:39 pm
I think you might be missing the context but not sure it would make any difference. What is it about BFC that makes us worth £200m do you think?
If ALK are prepared to pay that amount for the club, then that's what it's worth.
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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by Erasmus » Thu Dec 24, 2020 4:07 pm

I would say that any comparison with Venkys taking over Blackburn is misplaced. There initial failure was solely due to incompetence on their part and not to their wanting to take money from the club. In more recent years, they have been excellent owners, benefactors rather than investors, and I don't think they have any real expectation of getting a return on the large sums they have donated to Rovers. ALK, one hopes, will not be as incompetent as Venkys were (that would be hard act to follow), but they certainly won't be benefactors in the way the Venkys are now.

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