ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

[NewClaret]

I might be wrong, but I thought it was Deepdale.

Just checked and Deepdale in 1878 was built before Oakwell in 1888 (discussed last night).

[Dodobdobodobo]

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Very impressive credentials!!

[Targetman]

This for me... We were doing okay. Now we're just like the rest. Potentially saddled in debt, owned by America, used as a vehicle to prove that their scouting tools work.

We're never going to be top 6, is selling our soul worth it for a few more places higher up in the league?

You can repeat "exciting times" over and over again, until you convince yourself, for me, its a sad time... and another nail in the coffin of my interest of football.

How sad!

[Targetman]

Finally done. I'm not in the slightest bit worried about this takeover.
I maintain that fans are going to be pleasantly surprised by the way we will be going as a club and their plans on and off the field.

UTC!

Lets hope that everything you predicted regarding fans being pleased "come mid January" comes to fruition.

Up The Clarets!

[Sheedyclaret]

Love to know who funded this the investors?

[Erasmus]

I share a lot of that sadness, as I've really enjoyed being different from the rest and still being a proper football club and not just some business enterprise owned by people who have no real connection with Burnley.

Up till now, I've been dreading this happening and, honestly, I would have preferred relegation to being turned into a business investment. The one thing that now puts me slightly in favour is considering the impact that having a flourishing Premier League club has on the town. Burnley has been neglected by successive governments for decades now, and there's no doubt that the success of the football club brings wider benefits to the whole town. That's important, and to some extent mitigates the sense of loss I've been feeling.

[Paul Waine]

Love to know who funded this the investors?

From the FT: ALK Capital has agreed to buy an 84 per cent shareholding in Burnley, which was established as a football club in 1882. A person close to ALK said the deal values the club at more than £200m and that the takeover is being funded by a number of private individuals.

Of course, it will be interesting to know who they are - though it may not be quite as easy as looking up the current BFC shareholder list at Companies House.

Exciting times.

UTC

[Dark Cloud]

This for me... We were doing okay. Now we're just like the rest. Potentially saddled in debt, owned by America, used as a vehicle to prove that their scouting tools work.

We're never going to be top 6, is selling our soul worth it for a few more places higher up in the league?

You can repeat "exciting times" over and over again, until you convince yourself, for me, its a sad time... and another nail in the coffin of my interest of football.

Unlike some others I won't have a go at you for taking that stance or feeling the way you do. I absolutely get it and a big part of me feels very much the same, BUT I just think that what's happened is probably inevitable IF we want to remain in the PL. It's not about being top 6 or owt daft like that, but it is about our medium term future and although some on here say they would be happy to return to the Championship or even below if it meant retaining our "soul" I honestly don't think they would when the realities of Wycombe at home on a freezing Tuesday night in front of 9,500 fans hit home and we were scratching round in the transfer market for "frees" because we haven't got the proverbial pot to urinate in. I know even now that could still possibly come to pass as there are no guarantees in football (except City always beat Burnley 5-0), but this gives us a fighting chance of staving it off I feel, so I reluctantly accept it.

[BleedingClaret]

Unlike some others I won't have a go at you for taking that stance or feeling the way you do. I absolutely get it and a big part of me feels very much the same, BUT I just think that what's happened is probably inevitable IF we want to remain in the PL. It's not about being top 6 or owt daft like that, but it is about our medium term future and although some on here say they would be happy to return to the Championship or even below if it meant retaining our "soul" I honestly don't think they would when the realities of Wycombe at home on a freezing Tuesday night in front of 9,500 fans hit home and we were scratching round in the transfer market for "frees" because we haven't got the proverbial pot to urinate in. I know even now that could still possibly come to pass as there are no guarantees in football (except City always beat Burnley 5-0), but this gives us a fighting chance of staving it off I feel, so I reluctantly accept it.

Just about sums it up for most level headed fans I reckon

[scouseclaret]

Finally done. I'm not in the slightest bit worried about this takeover.
I maintain that fans are going to be pleasantly surprised by the way we will be going as a club and their plans on and off the field.

UTC!

OK Ben - you reckon you know a bit about all this, so now it’s official, why not tell all and put our minds at rest?

I’m in the camp that thinks something had to be done, and this is certainly something, but until I know where the money is coming from, what their business plan is and, most importantly, what their motivations are, I will remain uneasy about it as well. Can’t say I was blown away by Alan Pace’s first interview.

[ClaretTony]

Finally done. I'm not in the slightest bit worried about this takeover.
I maintain that fans are going to be pleasantly surprised by the way we will be going as a club and their plans on and off the field.

UTC!

Couldn't agree more

[BurnleyFC]

Never mind that this takeover had to happen if we want to remain in the Premier League, it simply had to happen if we wanted to retain the services of our manager and his back room staff.

I hope we can now tie Tarky down for another season at least.

[gandhisflipflop]

Tony, will you be trying to find out what the loan was for and who the private investors are in the future? I’m intrigued and is it anything to worry about?

I’m delighted this has finally gone through and can’t wait to see Burnley take the next step

[BenWickes]

OK Ben - you reckon you know a bit about all this, so now it’s official, why not tell all and put our minds at rest?

I’m in the camp that thinks something had to be done, and this is certainly something, but until I know where the money is coming from, what their business plan is and, most importantly, what their motivations are, I will remain uneasy about it as well. Can’t say I was blown away by Alan Pace’s first interview.

Well. We'll all learn more in time. What we and I use a 'collective we' as there's a number on here who have snippets over the past months. CT is undoubtedly more in touch with sources close to Burnley than I.
What I do know is they have a long term plan for Barnfield and all that entails, better communication with fan groups, investment in the squad, improving commercial avenues and a long term plan to improve facilities at Turf Moor and the overall fan experience. He's basically touched on it all in his interview.
There is a collective of investors to my knowledge. I am not privy to who or their wealth as individuals or as a group but am aware it is enough to allow us to be more competitive.

[DCWat]

Well. We'll all learn more in time. What we and I use a 'collective we' as there's a number on here who have snippets over the past months. CT is undoubtedly more in touch with sources close to Burnley than I.
What I do know is they have a long term plan for Barnfield and all that entails, better communication with fan groups, investment in the squad, improving commercial avenues and a long term plan to improve facilities at Turf Moor and the overall fan experience. He's basically touched on it all in his interview.
There is a collective of investors to my knowledge. I am not privy to who or their wealth as individuals or as a group but am aware it is enough to allow us to be more competitive.

If each of those areas are the focus and achieved, I’m in.

[NewClaret]

There is a collective of investors to my knowledge. I am not privy to who or their wealth as individuals or as a group but am aware it is enough to allow us to be more competitive.

This is the area I’m most intrigued about and had hoped to learn more from the interview.

Michael Dell is clearly involved in some capacity, but more so who are the others and what can they offer? Jerry Jones was mentioned further up the thread, along with Dave Checketts. I know nothing about American sport but these guys clearly have huge experience and contacts that could benefit us.

[Jeffbfc]

Finally done. I'm not in the slightest bit worried about this takeover.
I maintain that fans are going to be pleasantly surprised by the way we will be going as a club and their plans on and off the field.

UTC!

All said and done as supporters of the club regardless who owns or runs it what can you do other than, go on to watch which means buying a ticket or season ticket.
Don't go on, so don't give the club any money, or finally go on but don't buy a twix!!!
Something had to change and unfortunately not many Burnley born billionaires have come forward.
Time will tell then what ever your opinion is the "I told you so " line can be dusted off.
UTC

[brexit]

Thanks Mike G for your excellent stewardship.
Without you we would not be in the position we are now a PL team that is attractive to investors.
Again thanks for your hard work.

[dandeclaret]

This for me... We were doing okay. Now we're just like the rest. Potentially saddled in debt, owned by America, used as a vehicle to prove that their scouting tools work.

We're never going to be top 6, is selling our soul worth it for a few more places higher up in the league?

You can repeat "exciting times" over and over again, until you convince yourself, for me, its a sad time... and another nail in the coffin of my interest of football.

I understand this view point and have some similar feelings. For me Football in the main is a busted flush, where multi billionaires fund bad decision making and a lack of focus, until they get bored, walk away, and leave the clubs in turmoil. People will respond and say stuff like "Glad you've thrown Sheffield Wednesday in, because the list needed a refresh" or "They wouldn't buy a club like Burnley to run it into the ground".... but when the American fella bought Villa, he didn't buy it to run it into the ground, nor did the bloke at Sunderland. And that list that gets referred to - the one with Villa, Sunderland, Derby, Hull, Forest, Sheff Weds, Bolton, Wigan and many others on, is the reality of the way football is a busted flush. I'm encouraged that Pace has said they're not here to flip it in a couple of years, that said, I@m not naive enough to think that if it was their intention they'd have been stating it publically in an opening press conference.

I hope that they will be good for the club, and these are exciting times, as if they continue to build on the club values, of making right decisions, strong financial management, focusing on improving a couple of key things per season and doing that well, and stretching the commercials allowing for further investment within the framework, than that will be fantastic for the club, and help to keep them punching well above their weight. I'm just nervous, because, there's many who have tried that in football, and relatively, very few have succeeded. And if they don't succeed on this, we will be left with a club that needs to service it's debts and overspending, with a limited pool of resources to do that. And that's where the problems start. That's where the club will really be left without a pot to **** in. Not now. Now we're one of the richest clubs in the country - it's just that the vast majority we have to compete with are significantly richer.

[Steddyman]

This is the area I’m most intrigued about and had hoped to learn more from the interview.

Michael Dell is clearly involved in some capacity, but more so who are the others and what can they offer? Jerry Jones was mentioned further up the thread, along with Dave Checketts. I know nothing about American sport but these guys clearly have huge experience and contacts that could benefit us.

For me, I'll leave the details of how they get investment and from whom to the professional money managers who now own our club. That is entirely what has been missing from MG, any experience with corporate finance, hence the complete lack of any risk taking. Risk Management is an art that require years of exprience to do it properly. It isn't about putting everything on the line and hoping it doesn't fail. It's about balancing multiple risks against each other and having appropriate mitigations and plans in place for each of those risks.

[THEWELLERNUT70]

Jesus reading through the comments on here this morning I've come to the conclusion that if some posters had 6 nostrils they'd still want 7

[dpinsussex]

Hi dp, neat example. A little correction: if you are owed money by someone they are your debtor - and if you owe someone money then they are your creditor. It can be confusing, because we are all used to being "in credit" or having a "debit against us." It's all because the language has developed from the banker's or lender's point of view. Your bank statement shows you being "in credit" when the bank is holding your money - and owes your money to you.

In simple balance sheet terms, both cash and debtors are assets, and are on the same side of the balance sheet: whether the club holds £500k cash and a debtor of £1.5m, total = £2m or no cash and £2m debtor the club has the same total assets... etc etc.

EDIT: There's me posting about debtors and creditors - while missing that ALK have posted that they've acquired Burnley.

And, I deliberately left off - Exciting times - UTC - because balance sheets and accounting just isn't that interesting.

Well here goes....

EXCITING TIMES

UTC

Apologies typo my end

[bfcjg]

Jesus reading through the comments on here this morning I've come to the conclusion that if some posters had 6 nostrils they'd still want 7

If they're that ugly they should go support Blackburn, they wouldn't look out of place.

[Socrates]

Jesus reading through the comments on here this morning I've come to the conclusion that if some posters had 6 nostrils they'd still want 7

If I had six nostrils I’d want two.

[aggi]

I understand this view point and have some similar feelings....
...

What people have to remember is that these people aren't investing in Burnley FC because of a love of the club, the surrounding area, football, the Northern Powerhouse, sports-washing their reputation, etc. They're in it to make a profit, preferably one large enough to make all the effort worthwhile.

Now at the moment that mainly aligns with the fan's hopes. We've seen in the past few years how good things can be whilst increasing shareholder value. In the bad times though that alignment is far less certain.

[Chester Perry]

Anyone thinking that they will find the names of the actual investors in the shareholders lists for the club is likely to be disappointed - they will be hidden in the records held in Delaware - the club shares will be listed as belonging to ALK vehicles.

[aggi]

Anyone thinking that they will find the names of the actual investors in the shareholders lists for the club is likely to be disappointed - they will be hidden in the records held in Delaware - the club shares will be listed as belonging to ALK vehicles.

And Delaware is famously opaque for this kind of thing. It's likely we'll never know who is behind ALK in terms of financing.

[Nonayforever]

And Delaware is famously opaque for this kind of thing. It's likely we'll never know who is behind ALK in terms of financing.

Even if it's dodgy money, as they say in America, the buck stops with A Pace, that's how he passed the PL owners and directors test, he has 75% control over VSP and the holding company ALK.

[Chester Perry]

Even if it's dodgy money, as they say in America, the buck stops with A Pace, that's how he passed the PL owners and directors test, he has 75% control over VSP and the holding company ALK.

The Premier League will know - it is one of the things they insist on - so it will not be "dodgy money" and they will have had specific undertakings agreed by the major investor(s) before signing off on the takeover - it is one of the reasons the League is so highly regarded around the world and why the Saudi's backed out of buying Newcastle

[Nonayforever]

The Premier League will know - it is one of the things they insist on - so it will not be "dodgy money" and they will have had specific undertakings agreed by the major investor(s) before signing off on the takeover - it is one of the reasons the League is so highly regarded around the world and why the Saudi's backed out of buying Newcastle

Whilst i agree with this, how can the PL trust any undertaking by Fosun at Wolves ?

[KRBFC]

Whilst i agree with this, how can the PL trust any undertaking by Fosun at Wolves ?

Were Wolves not a Championship side when they got taken over? It’s an entirely different and easier test they have to pass and I’m pretty sure the PL have to accept them upon promotion.

[Chester Perry]

Whilst i agree with this, how can the PL trust any undertaking by Fosun at Wolves ?

Fosun operate legitimately in many countries - yes they may subject to the whims of Chinese officialdom - but they have a track record of sound business performance. If you are referring to Gestifute, FIFA and UEFA have cleared that relationship (that is confusing and difficult to understand/accept I know) but the Premier League work to their Football Laws and regulations

[bfcmik]

What people have to remember is that these people aren't investing in Burnley FC because of a love of the club, the surrounding area, football, the Northern Powerhouse, sports-washing their reputation, etc. They're in it to make a profit, preferably one large enough to make all the effort worthwhile.

Don't forget that ego and interest comes into play once you start talking about owning a football club - hence why so many hard nosed, successful businessmen shell out so many additional money on a regular basis to cover losses - say what you will but the Venkys have gone way beyond making a profit with our unloved brethren down the M65 and then you have £1m per month Gibson at Boro or Davis at Brighton too.

There is a collective of investors to my knowledge. I am not privy to who or their wealth as individuals or as a group but am aware it is enough to allow us to be more competitive.

Collective ownership with a front person is a very common strategy in US Sports Franchise ownership. But whether ours will operate in a similar manner is one of the great unknowns at this point of time.

[Chester Perry]

Don't forget that ego and interest comes into play once you start talking about owning a football club - hence why so many hard nosed, successful businessmen shell out so many additional money on a regular basis to cover losses - say what you will but the Venkys have gone way beyond making a profit with our unloved brethren down the M65 and then you have £1m per month Gibson at Boro or Davis at Brighton too.Collective ownership with a front person is a very common strategy in US Sports Franchise ownership. But whether ours will operate in a similar manner is one of the great unknowns at this point of time.

The directors box will be an interesting place to watch when fans return

[aggi]

Don't forget that ego and interest comes into play once you start talking about owning a football club - hence why so many hard nosed, successful businessmen shell out so many additional money on a regular basis to cover losses - say what you will but the Venkys have gone way beyond making a profit with our unloved brethren down the M65 and then you have £1m per month Gibson at Boro or Davis at Brighton too.Collective ownership with a front person is a very common strategy in US Sports Franchise ownership. But whether ours will operate in a similar manner is one of the great unknowns at this point of time.

Gibson and Bloom are the antithesis of what we have though. They're fans as well as businessmen.

[scouseclaret]

Well. We'll all learn more in time. What we and I use a 'collective we' as there's a number on here who have snippets over the past months. CT is undoubtedly more in touch with sources close to Burnley than I.
What I do know is they have a long term plan for Barnfield and all that entails, better communication with fan groups, investment in the squad, improving commercial avenues and a long term plan to improve facilities at Turf Moor and the overall fan experience. He's basically touched on it all in his interview.
There is a collective of investors to my knowledge. I am not privy to who or their wealth as individuals or as a group but am aware it is enough to allow us to be more competitive.

And do we know the extent to which these investors are putting their own capital at risk and how much is debt finance?

[ClaretTony]

Well. We'll all learn more in time. What we and I use a 'collective we' as there's a number on here who have snippets over the past months. CT is undoubtedly more in touch with sources close to Burnley than I.
What I do know is they have a long term plan for Barnfield and all that entails, better communication with fan groups, investment in the squad, improving commercial avenues and a long term plan to improve facilities at Turf Moor and the overall fan experience. He's basically touched on it all in his interview.
There is a collective of investors to my knowledge. I am not privy to who or their wealth as individuals or as a group but am aware it is enough to allow us to be more competitive.

They certainly have plans for the academy which has already taken great strides forward. Communication with fans is at its lowest for years, supporter engagement with supporter groups very poor.

[ClaretTony]

Tony, will you be trying to find out what the loan was for and who the private investors are in the future? I’m intrigued and is it anything to worry about?

I’m delighted this has finally gone through and can’t wait to see Burnley take the next step

I've asked those questions and not got answers as yet. Whether I ever do I don't know but I'll keep asking. I know there are several investors with this bid and I also am pleased with the comments I've received from people who know a lot more than I do.

[BenWickes]

And do we know the extent to which these investors are putting their own capital at risk and how much is debt finance?

CT has kind of answered this above. Will we ever know who or how much or who is involved? Some of it may come out in time. Some or all may wish to remain anonymous. We'll have some gauge of how much they're prepared to invest over time I guess.

[Paul Waine]

And do we know the extent to which these investors are putting their own capital at risk and how much is debt finance?

Hi scouse, you don't get a return on your money if it isn't "your money." You can borrow the money that you personally invest so that you get the quity return on your investment finance it by paying debt interest to whoever lends you the money. Alternatively, you can leverage your investment in the entity you invest in by providing some of the finance to that entity as debt.

But, there's a big balance to these things. No one will lend you money if they aren't very confident of getting repaid. Yes, the lender(s) might consider that they can get some security from the assets of the entity, but they will also know that the assets of a failed entity are never worth as much as they might have been if the entity had been successful.

Maybe in time we will see the balance sheet of Velocity Sports Partners Ltd. Maybe that will tell us something about the financial structure. There is also the Premier League's financial fair play rules and the disclosure of financial results. Maybe we will see BFC's financial accounts for the year to 31st July 2020 in a few months time - and then a year later, somewhere in 2022, we will see the financials for period to 31st July 2021 (unless the year end is changed again as a result of the takeover).

Exciting times.

UTC

[BenWickes]

They certainly have plans for the academy which has already taken great strides forward. Communication with fans is at its lowest for years, supporter engagement with supporter groups very poor.

Indeed. Communication in general and with supporters and the groups seem to have been in decline for some time. You'll know that better than most. He intimated in his interview there'd be a lot more interaction with fans. Having worked in the States in various roles over the years, including a football club there. They are big on customer satisfaction and interaction. So is not a surprise they're willing to build those bridges.

[NewClaret]

I've asked those questions and not got answers as yet. Whether I ever do I don't know but I'll keep asking. I know there are several investors with this bid and I also am pleased with the comments I've received from people who know a lot more than I do.

Pleased in what sense, CT? That those that know more are happy with the investors/way the takeover is funded?

I’m intrigued on that point and also the academy plans? I thought that was doing pretty well as it was.

I read earlier that AP was following UTC on Twitter? Hasn’t reached out yet has he?

[ClaretTony]

Pleased in what sense, CT? That those that know more are happy with the investors/way the takeover is funded?

I’m intrigued on that point and also the academy plans? I thought that was doing pretty well as it was.

I read earlier that AP was following UTC on Twitter? Hasn’t reached out yet has he?

We put the follow in a few weeks ago but he had the account locked then. Hopefully will speak to him in the next week or so.

[ClaretTony]

Pleased in what sense, CT? That those that know more are happy with the investors/way the takeover is funded?

I’m intrigued on that point and also the academy plans? I thought that was doing pretty well as it was.

I read earlier that AP was following UTC on Twitter? Hasn’t reached out yet has he?

First sentence which is why I’ve been very relaxed on it for a while.

I don’t know anything specific about academy plans but they like up with the club with their desire for us to develop footballers.

[aggi]

Even if it's dodgy money, as they say in America, the buck stops with A Pace, that's how he passed the PL owners and directors test, he has 75% control over VSP and the holding company ALK.

I doubt it's dodgy money, I'm sure they checks have been done on the source of funds.

More that the source of funds will likely influence the strategy at some point.

[scouseclaret]

Hi scouse, you don't get a return on your money if it isn't "your money." You can borrow the money that you personally invest so that you get the quity return on your investment finance it by paying debt interest to whoever lends you the money. Alternatively, you can leverage your investment in the entity you invest in by providing some of the finance to that entity as debt.

But, there's a big balance to these things. No one will lend you money if they aren't very confident of getting repaid. Yes, the lender(s) might consider that they can get some security from the assets of the entity, but they will also know that the assets of a failed entity are never worth as much as they might have been if the entity had been successful.

Maybe in time we will see the balance sheet of Velocity Sports Partners Ltd. Maybe that will tell us something about the financial structure. There is also the Premier League's financial fair play rules and the disclosure of financial results. Maybe we will see BFC's financial accounts for the year to 31st July 2020 in a few months time - and then a year later, somewhere in 2022, we will see the financials for period to 31st July 2021 (unless the year end is changed again as a result of the takeover).

Exciting times.

UTC

Thanks for the finance lesson, but it doesn’t really answer the question.

As I’m sure you know, PE generally works on leverage. So, if a deal is financed 80/20 debt/equity, and the value of the entity doubles over your ownership tenure, you make 5x return on your equity. Equally, it only takes a relatively modest 20% decline in the value of the entity to wipe out the equity entirely and leave you at the mercy of the creditors.

That’s why I would like to know how the deal is structured. I may be barking up the wrong tree entirely and it may just be a group for of wealthy enthusiasts clubbing together to buy the club outright, but I doubt it.

Exciting, but concerning, times.

[Paul Waine]

Thanks for the finance lesson, but it doesn’t really answer the question.

As I’m sure you know, PE generally works on leverage. So, if a deal is financed 80/20 debt/equity, and the value of the entity doubles over your ownership tenure, you make 5x return on your equity. Equally, it only takes a relatively modest 20% decline in the value of the entity to wipe out the equity entirely and leave you at the mercy of the creditors.

That’s why I would like to know how the deal is structured. I may be barking up the wrong tree entirely and it may just be a group for of wealthy enthusiasts clubbing together to buy the club outright, but I doubt it.

Exciting, but concerning, times.

Happy New Year, scouse.

Not the time for a disagreement. Yes, PE likes leverage and high leverage relies on reliable, predictable and stable (minimum) earnings. So, leverage works great for utilities and similar. How many football clubs have got the type of financial profile to be leveraged? ManU are one, with the global scale of ManU "supporters" (and I don't mean those who - in normal times - attend OT every game) which reinforces their sponsorship income. How many more are there? I can't see BFC supporting significant, medium/long term debt funding - there would need to be a lot greater depth in commercial earnings coupled with many seasons of high probability of "top 10" finishes, maybe a trophy or two, also, in the trophy cabinet before BFC could get anywhere near 50:50 debt:equity funding. It would be great if that level of footballing performance is part of ALK's aims.

Exciting times.

UTC

[scouseclaret]

Happy New Year, scouse.

Not the time for a disagreement. Yes, PE likes leverage and high leverage relies on reliable, predictable and stable (minimum) earnings. So, leverage works great for utilities and similar. How many football clubs have got the type of financial profile to be leveraged? ManU are one, with the global scale of ManU "supporters" (and I don't mean those who - in normal times - attend OT every game) which reinforces their sponsorship income. How many more are there? I can't see BFC supporting significant, medium/long term debt funding - there would need to be a lot greater depth in commercial earnings coupled with many seasons of high probability of "top 10" finishes, maybe a trophy or two, also, in the trophy cabinet before BFC could get anywhere near 50:50 debt:equity funding. It would be great if that level of footballing performance is part of ALK's aims.

Exciting times.

UTC

Now we are in complete agreement - that’s why I need to be reassured that it isn’t geared up to the hilt!

Happy New Year - and let’s hope your unerring optimism proves justified!

[aggi]

As most suspected would happen, the MSD Holdings loan is now secured over the fixed assets of the club (not the players).

[Chester Perry]

As most suspected would happen, the MSD Holdings loan is now secured over the fixed assets of the club (not the players).

how thoroughly depressing

Aggi I am not seeing the detail of named assets in question at companies house, do you have any understanding as to just what the loan has been secured against - it may give an indication of the loan size