ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

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Chester Perry
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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by Chester Perry » Wed Jan 13, 2021 11:08 pm

Paul Waine wrote:
Wed Jan 13, 2021 10:52 pm
Hi CP, you and I, I believe, have both taken a look at Southampton's latest financial report. You are also knowledgeable about the timing of distribution of tv money to the clubs. Are there any clues in the Soton figures that can help us prepare decent estimates for BFC, not just of the club's p&l for the 13 months to 31-July-2020, but also the cash balances at the end of December. If the largest part of the Premier League tv money is paid to the clubs at the start of the season (?) and further payments are rec'd sometime in 2021 (are there one or two more payments due? when are the final position payments paid? etc)? What do we estimate are the monthly cash wages to the players and other staff - remembering that PAYE and NIC are deducted and paid to HMRC later (do we know if this is monthly or quarterly? or is a deferral scheme running, as it is with VAT)?

What I'm getting at. is there may have been a large amount of cash in the club's bank account. But, a large amount of the cash could have been spoken for over the next several months....

Soton made big losses in 2019-20. Some of that is down to covid-19 and the suspension of football. Are there estimates of BFC's position at 31-Jul-2020? How much of Mike Garlick's "we could lose £50m" looks like a reasonable estimate - taking into account what we can learn from Soton?

Exciting times.

UTC
I kind of covered this yesterday Paul

The £55m figure was entirely reasonable to my mind - even post December wages, 2nd Premier League central payment is due in Feb (the first 2 are based on the equal shares and add up to around £80 - £85m) - I would also work on rebates being taken out of the 3rd and final "Merit/appearance" payment due at the end of the season

unknowns are:
- when bonuses are paid (is it just Dyche and his team due in Feb?
- what is our commercial income and when do we receive it
- do we have transfer instalments to pay (Brownhill?)
- what level of cost cutting has been made in both wages and operations
- whether the Pace and chums are going to be extracting salaries/consultancy fees and at what rate (and for how many individuals)

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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by WalkdenClaret » Wed Jan 13, 2021 11:23 pm

Paul Waine wrote:
Wed Jan 13, 2021 10:31 pm
MSD wouldn't lend money to a club that looked set to fail. They will know what ALK's plans are and what financial resources they have to deliver those plans.
From reports, we believe that MG and JB are owed 3 instalments before they are paid in full for their shares. If the money isn't paid, they get the club back. Do you think they'd agree to those arrangements if there was a high probability of them not receiving the 3 instalments?
Your time, effort and commitment to his thread and your own in depth is much appreciated Paul.
Can I just pick up on these two points.

As always, I hope I'm wrong, but I feel MSD/P couldn't give two hoots whether any of their footie investments fail, as of course, their loan is secured on high value assets which would guarantee the loan met or exceed through sale of said assets.

On your second point, I really really hope i'm making this up randomly, but I fear that the 3 instalment return/reject arrangement was hastily cobbled together by ALK/Pace and/or Garlick following the realisation that Pace couldn't raise as fraction of the money / find any investors.

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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by KRBFC » Wed Jan 13, 2021 11:30 pm

joey13 wrote:
Wed Jan 13, 2021 10:05 pm
How do you know it’s incorrect information?
Nobody on here knows if it’s correct or not so arguing and using it as fact is incredibly stupid.

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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by KRBFC » Wed Jan 13, 2021 11:35 pm

boatshed bill wrote:
Wed Jan 13, 2021 9:49 pm
One simple question I keep asking:
Did we have a healthy bank balance of around £55m last month?
Do we have a healthy bank balance today?

OK, that's 2 questions
We don’t know, nobody here knows which makes the constant whiners using it against ALK pretty stupid.
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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by KRBFC » Wed Jan 13, 2021 11:37 pm

WalkdenClaret wrote:
Wed Jan 13, 2021 10:27 pm
I too would love to share in Paul Waine's optimism, but the financial explanations given consistently never really add up to anything (apologies I don't wish to be rude but i'm not clever enough to have understand a word of your Aesop's fable and I'd had too much wine !).

I would love to be completely wrong and find out the the Bloomberg and The Athletic articles are hogwash, but like everyone on here, all we want is the best for our club. you, and Pace offering soothing words and empty is nowhere near placating any of us on UTC.

if the speculative articles, and the stories surrounding MSD/P's loans are true, it does appear to me that we had cash in the bank one day, then next it was gone (your comments about how bad and wasteful cash in bank earning 0 interest is vs how brilliant having a costly loan is nonsensensical).

Please give me some facts, numbers, to disprove this and show me that PACE/ALK are using own cash/loans and not lumping anything on BFC.
to repeat, on 30/12/20 we had £42m (or thereabouts) in bank and daily cashflow to service wages, i.e. we could have busted s flush and bought a goal machine, whilst affording wages for a while.
on 31/12, the cash disappeared. Plus a new debt emerged.

Can you say if this statement is true or false:
on 30/12 we had a large cash balance and no debt, on 31/12 the balance is 0 or thereabouts and we have a loan.
Who said the cash balance is 0?
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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by Duffer_ » Wed Jan 13, 2021 11:52 pm

It's not pointless though, is it? if you want to play the 'we can't change anything' card then it's no more pointless than having an opinion on who should start up front. Sure, there are no concrete answers, but the debate has shown a range of possible situations within the confines of the law. I have learnt lots from many posters, including those whose view on the likely outcome differs from mine. Paul Waine has patiently answered all questions and, whilst I don't share his optimism, I appreciate his input and how he has conducted himself when engaging with others.
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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by aggi » Thu Jan 14, 2021 12:14 am

Murger wrote:
Wed Jan 13, 2021 10:22 pm
Didn't I read somewhere that 1 of his sources was Farnell?
I think CT suggested that but it seemed pretty baseless.

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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by Paul Waine » Thu Jan 14, 2021 12:38 am

WalkdenClaret wrote:
Wed Jan 13, 2021 11:23 pm
Your time, effort and commitment to his thread and your own in depth is much appreciated Paul.
Can I just pick up on these two points.

As always, I hope I'm wrong, but I feel MSD/P couldn't give two hoots whether any of their footie investments fail, as of course, their loan is secured on high value assets which would guarantee the loan met or exceed through sale of said assets.

On your second point, I really really hope i'm making this up randomly, but I fear that the 3 instalment return/reject arrangement was hastily cobbled together by ALK/Pace and/or Garlick following the realisation that Pace couldn't raise as fraction of the money / find any investors.
Hi Walkden, I've some experience of commercial credit risk, though not related to football clubs. Please take it from me that no lender makes a decision to lend based only on the type of assets BFC has. Their security isn't there to guarantee that they can recover the full value of their loans. In the first case they are there to ensure that ALK will do everything it possibly can to repay the loans. It is very important to MSD that they understand ALK's business plan and this helps them make their decision about (i) if they will lend; (ii) the maximum they will lend and (iii) how much they will charge for their loan. It's also quite feasible that MSD don't keep the loan on their own books. They might choose to re-package and sell it on to others. You may have seen my post that says that the Debenture and Security docs describe MSD as the security agent for themselves and others. This is all standard practice for commercial loan notes. The other thing re the loan, if it is for £60million, how much do you think Turf Moor and the other football club assets are that provide the security? Don't forget, if MSD have to exercise their security the will be "distressed sellers" of those assets. How much is a football stadium worth, in the centre of Burnley, when the only football club in Burnley has just gone bust?

It is quite common for vendor financing to be part of a commercial sale and purchase agreement. It fills in the triangle that arises, the vendor wants the highest price they can achieve, the buyer wants the lowest price the vendor will agree (while beating other bidders) and the buyer wants some performance assurance that what they are buying is what they want to buy. "Does it do what it says on the tin?" In BFC's case, it is are we buying a Premier League club that can remain in the Premier League? I don't think the 3 instalments were a "last minute" add-on to the deal. Yes, the ability to raise funds is critical. Time to pay, is also very helpful in agreeing the price to be paid. Alan Pace has said that when the fans know the details of how the deal has been done they will be impressed and pleased. I think the 3 instalments are due and payable related to BFC remaining in the Premier League. That's the bit that we as fans would particularly welcome. This structure puts the "performance" element into the deal. The structure will also be the big reason why MG and JB remain as directors. That's my guess, anyway. I'm not "in the know." I may be wrong.

Exciting times.

UTC
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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by jtv » Thu Jan 14, 2021 11:00 am

Paul Waine wrote:
Thu Jan 14, 2021 12:38 am
It is quite common for vendor financing to be part of a commercial sale and purchase agreement. It fills in the triangle that arises, the vendor wants the highest price they can achieve, the buyer wants the lowest price the vendor will agree (while beating other bidders) and the buyer wants some performance assurance that what they are buying is what they want to buy. "Does it do what it says on the tin?" In BFC's case, it is are we buying a Premier League club that can remain in the Premier League? I don't think the 3 instalments were a "last minute" add-on to the deal. Yes, the ability to raise funds is critical. Time to pay, is also very helpful in agreeing the price to be paid. Alan Pace has said that when the fans know the details of how the deal has been done they will be impressed and pleased. I think the 3 instalments are due and payable related to BFC remaining in the Premier League. That's the bit that we as fans would particularly welcome. This structure puts the "performance" element into the deal.. The structure will also be the big reason why MG and JB remain as directors. That's my guess, anyway. I'm not "in the know." I may be wrong.

Exciting times.

UTC
But surely the performance element is the responsibility of ALK now. If ALK fail, MG and JB will probably be worse off than if they did not sell at all. If the shares revert to them, they will be saddled with a debt-ridden Club, probably a championship club, with the 50million they had painstakingly amassed allegedly evaporated away. So is it logical to assume that MG and JB are extremely confident that ALK will succeed?

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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by dsr » Thu Jan 14, 2021 11:10 am

jtv wrote:
Thu Jan 14, 2021 11:00 am
But surely the performance element is the responsibility of ALK now. If ALK fail, MG and JB will probably be worse off than if they did not sell at all. If the shares revert to them, they will be saddled with a debt-ridden Club, probably a championship club, with the 50million they had painstakingly amassed allegedly evaporated away. So is it logical to assume that MG and JB are extremely confident that ALK will succeed?
I think if BFC gets into trouble and ALK can't pay, then MG and JB keep the £100m they have already got and get landed with a bankrupt club. Crucially, they are not obliged to give the money back to the club. The club could be worthless but it's limited liability, which means the owners don't have to pay the debts.

Whatever money MK and JB have got, is theirs to keep, almost certainly. I would be very surprised if they would sell on any other terms. They worst that can happen to them is that they get £100m when they expected £150m.

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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by Nonayforever » Thu Jan 14, 2021 11:21 am

jtv wrote:
Thu Jan 14, 2021 11:00 am
But surely the performance element is the responsibility of ALK now. If ALK fail, MG and JB will probably be worse off than if they did not sell at all. If the shares revert to them, they will be saddled with a debt-ridden Club, probably a championship club, with the 50million they had painstakingly amassed allegedly evaporated away. So is it logical to assume that MG and JB are extremely confident that ALK will succeed?
They would be an awful lot worse off. As you say the club be be debt laden. BFC would be leasing the ground and training pitch off a third party. Any player with a resale value would be gone. We certainly wouldn't have SD as manager.
In all probability MG & JB wouldn't want to actually run the club in that situation ( plus fans backlash) and owning the shares ( club ) would only serve to provide them with a small amount of capital from a fire sale.

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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by aggi » Thu Jan 14, 2021 11:59 am

jtv wrote:
Thu Jan 14, 2021 11:00 am
But surely the performance element is the responsibility of ALK now. If ALK fail, MG and JB will probably be worse off than if they did not sell at all. If the shares revert to them, they will be saddled with a debt-ridden Club, probably a championship club, with the 50million they had painstakingly amassed allegedly evaporated away. So is it logical to assume that MG and JB are extremely confident that ALK will succeed?
Well the club would be worse off, I don't think MG and JB would be.

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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by Quickenthetempo » Thu Jan 14, 2021 12:30 pm

Is there much difference between a loan at say 5% or an investor wanting a return on his investment which would be at least 5%?

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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by fatboy47 » Thu Jan 14, 2021 12:42 pm

jtv wrote:
Thu Jan 14, 2021 11:00 am
But surely the performance element is the responsibility of ALK now. If ALK fail, MG and JB will probably be worse off than if they did not sell at all. If the shares revert to them, they will be saddled with a debt-ridden Club, probably a championship club, with the 50million they had painstakingly amassed allegedly evaporated away. So is it logical to assume that MG and JB are extremely confident that ALK will succeed?

If this goes tits up, then "probably a championship club" is a wildly optimistic assumption.

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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by Dark Cloud » Thu Jan 14, 2021 12:43 pm

Quickenthetempo wrote:
Thu Jan 14, 2021 12:30 pm
Is there much difference between a loan at say 5% or an investor wanting a return on his investment which would be at least 5%?
I'm guessing that there is, in so much as one might be prepared to defer his return and put payment(s) off, whereas the other will have it when it's been stipulated...or else.....!!

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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by Rileybobs » Thu Jan 14, 2021 12:46 pm

Quickenthetempo wrote:
Thu Jan 14, 2021 12:30 pm
Is there much difference between a loan at say 5% or an investor wanting a return on his investment which would be at least 5%?
Well yes. If the investor doesn’t get their return then it’s tough titty, they’re taking the risk. If a lender doesn’t get back their return then they’ll take it by other means.

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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by joey13 » Thu Jan 14, 2021 12:52 pm

KRBFC wrote:
Wed Jan 13, 2021 11:30 pm
Nobody on here knows if it’s correct or not so arguing and using it as fact is incredibly stupid.
At least you’ve owned up

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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by joey13 » Thu Jan 14, 2021 12:53 pm

Steve-Harpers-perm wrote:
Wed Jan 13, 2021 10:35 pm
The same as the article?
Well hopefully the new chairman does know the details :roll:

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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by Chester Perry » Thu Jan 14, 2021 2:22 pm

Mores discussion on the Burnley takeover on todays business of sport podcast from the Athletic

not listened to it yet, but you can find it here

https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cH ... IBhAI&ep=6

the blurb
Mark Chapman is joined by The Athletic's Matt Slater to look at our exclusive story on the recent Burnley takeover. Their new owners have only put in £15 million up front and the rest is leveraged debt. What does this mean and should Burnley fans be concerned?

Swansea City investor Jordan Gardener joins us to give us his considered view on the Burnley deal and context on the wider picture relating to increasing amounts of American capital investment in football.

EDIT - it last about 20 minutes from around 1 minute in - the most interesting contribution is from Jordan Gardener, and crystalizes a number of my thoughts
Last edited by Chester Perry on Thu Jan 14, 2021 3:18 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by Duffer_ » Thu Jan 14, 2021 2:23 pm

The over-casual approach to investors (tough titty) may be one of the reasons why some posters are so alarmed by ALK's approach. I say over-casual because no rational investor is ever going to shrug their shoulders and say 'c'est la vie'. With debt OR equity it is highly likely there would be a fire sale on relegation, the likes of which "we" felt we were insulated to some extent by the prudence of the previous board.

For all of my concern with ALK's approach, it is the previous board that I feel let down by. The cash "we" had built for the rainy day of relegation was an illusion. It was always theirs, not ours, and it very much looks like they've cashed that in like any other rational (non-custodian, non-fan) investor.
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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by Chester Perry » Thu Jan 14, 2021 2:29 pm

Duffer_ wrote:
Thu Jan 14, 2021 2:23 pm
The over-casual approach to investors (tough titty) may be one of the reasons why some posters are so alarmed by ALK's approach. I say over-casual because no rational investor is ever going to shrug their shoulders and say 'c'est la vie'. With debt OR equity it is highly likely there would be a fire sale on relegation, the likes of which "we" felt we were insulated to some extent by the prudence of the previous board.
the suspicion is that the MSD loan is all money from Michael Dell's family office, he rarely goes to market to raise funds but uses them to spread his funds around the world often via tax efficient locations such as the Guernsey Stock Exchange.

from his perspective a 9%+ interest rate is a great return in market place

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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by claretonthecoast1882 » Thu Jan 14, 2021 2:33 pm

Duffer_ wrote:
Thu Jan 14, 2021 2:23 pm
The over-casual approach to investors (tough titty) may be one of the reasons why some posters are so alarmed by ALK's approach. I say over-casual because no rational investor is ever going to shrug their shoulders and say 'c'est la vie'. With debt OR equity it is highly likely there would be a fire sale on relegation, the likes of which "we" felt we were insulated to some extent by the prudence of the previous board.

For all of my concern with ALK's approach, it is the previous board that I feel let down by. The cash "we" had built for the rainy day of relegation was an illusion. It was always theirs, not ours, and it very much looks like they've cashed that in like any other rational (non-custodian, non-fan) investor.

:D :D

Do you have your own business Duffer ? If so let me know after you have run it for the best part of 15 years without a wage and built up a reserve of say 100k. I will then buy the business from you for say 70k on the proviso you leave the 100k in the business.

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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by Paul Waine » Thu Jan 14, 2021 3:26 pm

Chester Perry wrote:
Thu Jan 14, 2021 2:22 pm
Mores discussion on the Burnley takeover on todays business of sport podcast from the Athletic

not listened to it yet, but you can find it here

https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cH ... IBhAI&ep=6

the blurb
Mark Chapman is joined by The Athletic's Matt Slater to look at our exclusive story on the recent Burnley takeover. Their new owners have only put in £15 million up front and the rest is leveraged debt. What does this mean and should Burnley fans be concerned?

Swansea City investor Jordan Gardener joins us to give us his considered view on the Burnley deal and context on the wider picture relating to increasing amounts of American capital investment in football.
Hi CP, listening now: Mark Slater, ALK put in £15m and borrow £80m. Alan Pace good track record in finance. Brief record in football. "It's another leveraged buyout." Price £150m (MS belief). Borrowed £80m (maybe) from MSD. BFC cash £42m 30-Jun-2019. "Clever deal, ALK have used some of BFC money to buy the club..." Gardener "terms of deal are problematic..." "Has been push back from Alan Pace to the story." MS "would like to think that ALK have factored that they will go down once in the next 10 seasons." JG "relegation, eye opening experience" as he learnt at Swansea. JG "assume ALK will have thought about relegation." "Your fans are crying..." but "Seen Sunderland documentary..." JG "massive learning curve for future projects.." JG "Difficult to globalise the club...for small clubs, Burnley, Swansea. Maybe Sunderland can do it..." Chapman (or MS) "Geography of club..."

***********************

No mention of instalments. Has Mark Slater seen the Bloomberg article? Although he said £150m for 84% and £15m put in by ALK and £80m borrowed from MSD he doesn't attempt to "add the figures up" and say that the balance of £55m has been paid from the cash in BFC's bank account..."

The rest of the BFC section of podcast is Jordan Gardener saying.... not a lot and nothing about the BFC deal.

I'm not disappointed by the Athletic podcast, but neither have I learnt anything - except a sense that Mark Slater hasn't got everything right.

Exciting times.

UTC

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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by Paul Waine » Thu Jan 14, 2021 3:31 pm

Chester Perry wrote:
Thu Jan 14, 2021 2:29 pm
the suspicion is that the MSD loan is all money from Michael Dell's family office, he rarely goes to market to raise funds but uses them to spread his funds around the world often via tax efficient locations such as the Guernsey Stock Exchange.

from his perspective a 9%+ interest rate is a great return in market place
Hi CP, how does the Guernsey Stock Exchange fit into Michael Dell's family office investing money? I can see how MSD may be raising funds by issuing securities on Guernsey Stock Exchange and/or allowing others to buy and sell MSD securities on that stock exchange. Do we know if any MSD securities are listed in Guernsey?

Exciting times.

UTC

EDIT: I've answered my own question. It appears there are 2 MSD securities listed on the International Stock Exchange

https://tisegroup.com/market/companies/8061

Formal Notice
This notice complies with the requirements of The International Stock Exchange Authority Limited (the
"Authority"). It appears for information purposes only and does not constitute an invitation or offer to
acquire, purchase or subscribe for any securities in or offered by MSD UK Holdings Limited (the
"Issuer"). Applications will only be considered on the basis of the listing document.
Application has been made to the Authority for:
An unlimited amount of 9.00% unsecured loan notes due 2030 (the "Series A Notes");
An unlimited amount of 7.75% unsecured loan notes due 2030 (the "Series B Notes" and
together with the Series A Notes, the "Loan Notes"); and
An unlimited amount of payment in kind notes in respect of the Loan Notes (the "PIK Notes",
and together with the Loan Notes, the "Notes")
issued by the Issuer, to be admitted to the Official List of The International Stock Exchange (the "Official
List").
It is expected that admission to the Official List will be effective and that dealings will commence on or
about 8 October 2020
MSD UK Holdings Limited
(a company incorporated and registered in England and Wales with registered number 12701276).
Listing agent:
Maples Listing Services (CI) Limited

£52 million at 9.0% and £15m at 7.75%.
Last edited by Paul Waine on Thu Jan 14, 2021 3:42 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by Chester Perry » Thu Jan 14, 2021 3:37 pm

Paul Waine wrote:
Thu Jan 14, 2021 3:31 pm
Hi CP, how does the Guernsey Stock Exchange fit into Michael Dell's family office investing money? I can see how MSD may be raising funds by issuing securities on Guernsey Stock Exchange and/or allowing others to buy and sell MSD securities on that stock exchange. Do we know if any MSD securities are listed in Guernsey?

Exciting times.

UTC
it is a trail for one of MSD UK's notes that has been bouncing around over the last couple of weeks - though not one I believe was used for us

https://www.tisegroup.com/market/securities/12187

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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by Paul Waine » Thu Jan 14, 2021 3:44 pm

Chester Perry wrote:
Thu Jan 14, 2021 3:37 pm
it is a trail for one of MSD UK's notes that has been bouncing around over the last couple of weeks - though not one I believe was used for us

https://www.tisegroup.com/market/securities/12187
Thanks. We're looking in the same place. Do you know if there's any documentation/terms of the loan notes in the public domain?

Exciting times.

UTC

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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by Chester Perry » Thu Jan 14, 2021 3:51 pm

Paul Waine wrote:
Thu Jan 14, 2021 3:44 pm
Thanks. We're looking in the same place. Do you know if there's any documentation/terms of the loan notes in the public domain?

Exciting times.

UTC
none that I am aware of

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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by KRBFC » Thu Jan 14, 2021 4:08 pm

claretonthecoast1882 wrote:
Thu Jan 14, 2021 2:33 pm
:D :D

Do you have your own business Duffer ? If so let me know after you have run it for the best part of 15 years without a wage and built up a reserve of say 100k. I will then buy the business from you for say 70k on the proviso you leave the 100k in the business.
That’s not the price it’s been sold at though, closer to 4x the amount in the balance.

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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by Richardsbfc » Fri Jan 15, 2021 7:38 am

Nonayforever wrote:
Mon Dec 28, 2020 8:51 pm
One interesting link to ALK's possible source of funds is an American billionaire called 'Jerry' jones who owns Dallas Cowboys, he has links to Dave Checketts who also, coincidently, has direct business links to Stan Kroenke at Arsenal.
Not fully kept up to date on investors etc. Interested to see if Jerry Jones been mentioned at any point?

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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by Chester Perry » Fri Jan 15, 2021 12:23 pm

Richardsbfc wrote:
Fri Jan 15, 2021 7:38 am
Not fully kept up to date on investors etc. Interested to see if Jerry Jones been mentioned at any point?
The business Jerry Jones set up with the owner of the New York Mets (Legends Hospitality) was this week valued at over $1 billion when a Private Equity company bought a 51% share (posted about this in the MMT thread yesterday) - it was headed up by Checketts when it first launched. It specializes in stadium development and premium hospitality development - for American Investors it is something of a grail organisation because the owners have effectively made a 2nd billion dollar business out of the knowledge built up in when they built their first Multi-billion dollar businesses.

I fully expect the hospitality side to be a bit more expensive and much improved offering in the next few years at the club. given the experience of ALK's directors in that area

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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by dsr » Fri Jan 15, 2021 12:52 pm

Jerry Jones is getting old and his obsession is the Dallas Cowboys. If he is in any way involved with the purchase of BFC, it will ba as an investment not a hobby.

Remember in America, the owners make profits. Any American sports owner who has invested in BFC has done it to make a profit, not to pour money away.

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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by Chester Perry » Fri Jan 15, 2021 1:58 pm

dsr wrote:
Fri Jan 15, 2021 12:52 pm
Jerry Jones is getting old and his obsession is the Dallas Cowboys. If he is in any way involved with the purchase of BFC, it will ba as an investment not a hobby.

Remember in America, the owners make profits. Any American sports owner who has invested in BFC has done it to make a profit, not to pour money away.
very much so (I don't think he is involved btw) fwiw the Cowboys are now worth over 20 times what Jones paid for them of course in the US sports franchises get a lot of help in building stadiums - this from Wikipedia about the Arlington Stadium (The cowboys homes)

Originally estimated at $650 million, the stadium's actual construction cost rose to $1.15 billion,[20] making it one of the most expensive sports venues ever built. To aid Cowboys owner and general manager, Jerry Jones, in paying the construction costs of the new stadium, Arlington voters approved the increase of the city's sales tax by 0.5%, the hotel occupancy tax by 2%, and car rental tax by 5%. The City of Arlington provided over $325 million (including interest) in bonds as funding,[20][21] and Jones covered any cost overruns. Also, the NFL provided the Cowboys with an additional $150 million loan, following its policy for facilitating financing for the construction of new stadiums.[22]

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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by KateR » Fri Jan 15, 2021 3:58 pm

mmmm
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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by Paul Waine » Sat Jan 16, 2021 12:22 am

Chester Perry wrote:
Thu Jan 14, 2021 2:29 pm
the suspicion is that the MSD loan is all money from Michael Dell's family office, he rarely goes to market to raise funds but uses them to spread his funds around the world often via tax efficient locations such as the Guernsey Stock Exchange.

from his perspective a 9%+ interest rate is a great return in market place
Hi CP, I've been puzzling over the two loan notes MSD listed on The International Stock Exchange (Guernsey exchange) in October - from the listing details: (1) An unlimited amount of 9.00% unsecured loan notes due 2030 (the "Series A Notes"); (2) An unlimited amount of 7.75% unsecured loan notes due 2030 (the "Series B Notes"

I'm wondering whether these are a form of collateralized debt obligations (CDOs) - the £15 million, Series B Notes being the more senior, with 7.75% coupon and the £52 million, Series A Notes having 9.00% coupon and bearing more of the default risk.

Was it £80 million Southampton report they borrowed at the end of June, paying 9.14% interest? Then, roughly 3 months later, MSD issue the 2 CDOs, £52m and £15m, total £67m and MSD retaining £13m for their own account.

When I've a few minutes, I'll calculate the effective interest rate MSD is receiving for the £13m they appear to have retained of this debt structure.

Have you seen any reports of CDOs being used to take loans to football (or other sports) clubs off the lender's balance sheet?

This may be how MSD will handle their loan to ALK/Velocity. Of course, if they follow the same timeline as I'm guessing they may have done with Soton it may not be until April/May this year we see some new loan notes issued by MSD...

Exciting times.

UTC

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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by NewClaret » Sat Jan 16, 2021 12:42 am

Chester Perry wrote:
Fri Jan 15, 2021 12:23 pm
The business Jerry Jones set up with the owner of the New York Mets (Legends Hospitality) was this week valued at over $1 billion when a Private Equity company bought a 51% share (posted about this in the MMT thread yesterday) - it was headed up by Checketts when it first launched. It specializes in stadium development and premium hospitality development - for American Investors it is something of a grail organisation because the owners have effectively made a 2nd billion dollar business out of the knowledge built up in when they built their first Multi-billion dollar businesses.

I fully expect the hospitality side to be a bit more expensive and much improved offering in the next few years at the club. given the experience of ALK's directors in that area
That’s interesting. So JJ has $1bn burning a hole in his pocket? Hope AP can tempt him to part with some of that!! ;)

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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by Chester Perry » Sat Jan 16, 2021 1:06 am

Paul Waine wrote:
Sat Jan 16, 2021 12:22 am
Hi CP, I've been puzzling over the two loan notes MSD listed on The International Stock Exchange (Guernsey exchange) in October - from the listing details: (1) An unlimited amount of 9.00% unsecured loan notes due 2030 (the "Series A Notes"); (2) An unlimited amount of 7.75% unsecured loan notes due 2030 (the "Series B Notes"

I'm wondering whether these are a form of collateralized debt obligations (CDOs) - the £15 million, Series B Notes being the more senior, with 7.75% coupon and the £52 million, Series A Notes having 9.00% coupon and bearing more of the default risk.

Was it £80 million Southampton report they borrowed at the end of June, paying 9.14% interest? Then, roughly 3 months later, MSD issue the 2 CDOs, £52m and £15m, total £67m and MSD retaining £13m for their own account.

When I've a few minutes, I'll calculate the effective interest rate MSD is receiving for the £13m they appear to have retained of this debt structure.

Have you seen any reports of CDOs being used to take loans to football (or other sports) clubs off the lender's balance sheet?

This may be how MSD will handle their loan to ALK/Velocity. Of course, if they follow the same timeline as I'm guessing they may have done with Soton it may not be until April/May this year we see some new loan notes issued by MSD...

Exciting times.

UTC
This is what our friend The Esk had to say about them

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=20891&start=6053

as for CDO's, I suspect that banks that "factor" such as MacQuarie and Barclay's may do it, but it will be more difficult for non mainstream lenders (which tend to be Private Equity and even family offices like Dell) they tend to raise the money first either from Private Investors or from the markets and then lend at a margin, only name I can currently recall of this type operating in English Football is Rights and Media Funding (which is Cheshire based - https://find-and-update.company-informa ... y/07575619) who supply credit to Everton and possibly others.

From what I understand the various companies that feed back to MSD Capital (the Dell family office) all use Dell's monies only and do not go to market either to raise funds or sell CDO's.

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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by Chester Perry » Sat Jan 16, 2021 1:10 am

NewClaret wrote:
Sat Jan 16, 2021 12:42 am
That’s interesting. So JJ has $1bn burning a hole in his pocket? Hope AP can tempt him to part with some of that!! ;)
no, at best it is about $130m for some of his share - it was a 3 way split and one of the original partners completely sold themselves out completely, the other 2 sold no more than 10% each of their share holding

and I repeat it is not expected that he is part of the deal in any form, now or in the future

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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by Richardsbfc » Sat Jan 16, 2021 6:15 am

Thanks Chester. Although, this Checketts seems an interesting one when he comes on board. I just read that he will be joining the board in the near future due to some current commitments.

I’ll have to do some more digging on him.

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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by Steve-Harpers-perm » Sat Jan 16, 2021 8:23 am

Chester Perry wrote:
Sat Jan 16, 2021 1:10 am
no, at best it is about $130m for some of his share - it was a 3 way split and one of the original partners completely sold themselves out completely, the other 2 sold no more than 10% each of their share holding

and I repeat it is not expected that he is part of the deal in any form, now or in the future
None of us know who might be part of any future investment with our new owners. Probably best to stop worrying about it and give them a bit of time to see what they do for the club.

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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by NewClaret » Sat Jan 16, 2021 9:09 am

Chester Perry wrote:
Sat Jan 16, 2021 1:10 am
no, at best it is about $130m for some of his share - it was a 3 way split and one of the original partners completely sold themselves out completely, the other 2 sold no more than 10% each of their share holding

and I repeat it is not expected that he is part of the deal in any form, now or in the future
Ah, that’s a shame. Still, $130m will be a nice contribution towards the January window :D

When you say he’s not expected to be part of the deal, do you mean you don’t expect him to be or has there been some media commentary on it?

You’d expect he & Checketts have a good history, given his previous role, so it would be great if he could tempt him to join the group, even in a minority position.

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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by Jakubs Tash » Sat Jan 16, 2021 9:13 am

Steve-Harpers-perm wrote:
Sat Jan 16, 2021 8:23 am
None of us know who might be part of any future investment with our new owners. Probably best to stop worrying about it and give them a bit of time to see what they do for the club.
Give the new owners (who passed the extremely strict and thorough fit and proper Premier League requirements) longer than 2 weeks before coming to the decision that we’re doomed?

What a novel idea, S_H_P.....
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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by Steve-Harpers-perm » Sat Jan 16, 2021 9:58 am

Jakubs Tash wrote:
Sat Jan 16, 2021 9:13 am
Give the new owners (who passed the extremely strict and thorough fit and proper Premier League requirements) longer than 2 weeks before coming to the decision that we’re doomed?

What a novel idea, S_H_P.....
Pace should have just told everyone he was born and brought up in Burnley.

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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by Paul Waine » Sat Jan 16, 2021 10:59 am

Chester Perry wrote:
Sat Jan 16, 2021 1:06 am
This is what our friend The Esk had to say about them

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=20891&start=6053

as for CDO's, I suspect that banks that "factor" such as MacQuarie and Barclay's may do it, but it will be more difficult for non mainstream lenders (which tend to be Private Equity and even family offices like Dell) they tend to raise the money first either from Private Investors or from the markets and then lend at a margin, only name I can currently recall of this type operating in English Football is Rights and Media Funding (which is Cheshire based - https://find-and-update.company-informa ... y/07575619) who supply credit to Everton and possibly others.

From what I understand the various companies that feed back to MSD Capital (the Dell family office) all use Dell's monies only and do not go to market either to raise funds or sell CDO's.
Thanks, CP. Good to be able to take a look at the links.

I've run my calc on the MDS loan notes - on the assumption that the £80 million MSD have loaned to Southampton at 9.14% is linked to the two loan notes MSD issued on TISE (Guernsey).

Assuming there is a link between the transactions, (and as The Esk says), the two loan notes, £52 million at 9.00% and £15 million at 7.75% have a combined interest rate of 8.72%.

MSD will still be holding £13 million (80 less 67) and the effective interest rate on this debt is raised to 11.30% (ignoring all fees in setting up and listing the loan notes).

I'll keep thinking if there's a way to get access to the loan note documentation and see if the different interest rates can be explained by being different tranches of the Soton £80m.

I'm not convinced that all the loans being made to football clubs by MSD will stay with Michael Dell's family. The amounts involved will represent a concentration of credit risk. I'm more inclined towards the view that having developed the skills to assess football club risk, the MSD team are leveraging their knowledge and using CDOs to bring other investors into their deals thus enabling MSD to spread their own risk and complete more deals and collect more fees for these deals.

I've also got in the back of my mind Alan Pace's previous role at Citigroup and who he might have got to know in his time there.

Plenty of time to learn more...

Exciting times.

UTC

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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by Chester Perry » Sat Jan 16, 2021 11:07 am

Richardsbfc wrote:
Sat Jan 16, 2021 6:15 am
Thanks Chester. Although, this Checketts seems an interesting one when he comes on board. I just read that he will be joining the board in the near future due to some current commitments.

I’ll have to do some more digging on him.
Checketts is indeed an interesting one - Think Daniel Levy and Richard Scudamore in one (and possibly more successful than both) - that is why I struggle to see him at a club like ours - he seems to be what some one like Barcelona or Inter Milan need - both struggling financially and either wanting to significantly redevelop or build a new stadium

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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by Chester Perry » Sat Jan 16, 2021 11:15 am

Jakubs Tash wrote:
Sat Jan 16, 2021 9:13 am
Give the new owners (who passed the extremely strict and thorough fit and proper Premier League requirements) longer than 2 weeks before coming to the decision that we’re doomed?

What a novel idea, S_H_P.....
I have a fundamental dislike of debt on football clubs for things other than infrastructural development that leads to greater revenues and sustainability - you will note that I have passed no judgement on the new owners, they may well be successful on the pitch, but I my concern born from everything I have learnt is that clubs that take on large debt without owner wealth to cover it only end up struggling (or worse) in the long run.

I accept that to some I am a neanderthal who very much sits in the built not bought camp.
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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by aggi » Sat Jan 16, 2021 1:30 pm

Paul Waine wrote:
Sat Jan 16, 2021 10:59 am
Thanks, CP. Good to be able to take a look at the links.

I've run my calc on the MDS loan notes - on the assumption that the £80 million MSD have loaned to Southampton at 9.14% is linked to the two loan notes MSD issued on TISE (Guernsey).

Assuming there is a link between the transactions, (and as The Esk says), the two loan notes, £52 million at 9.00% and £15 million at 7.75% have a combined interest rate of 8.72%.

MSD will still be holding £13 million (80 less 67) and the effective interest rate on this debt is raised to 11.30% (ignoring all fees in setting up and listing the loan notes).

I'll keep thinking if there's a way to get access to the loan note documentation and see if the different interest rates can be explained by being different tranches of the Soton £80m.

I'm not convinced that all the loans being made to football clubs by MSD will stay with Michael Dell's family. The amounts involved will represent a concentration of credit risk. I'm more inclined towards the view that having developed the skills to assess football club risk, the MSD team are leveraging their knowledge and using CDOs to bring other investors into their deals thus enabling MSD to spread their own risk and complete more deals and collect more fees for these deals.

I've also got in the back of my mind Alan Pace's previous role at Citigroup and who he might have got to know in his time there.

Plenty of time to learn more...

Exciting times.

UTC
I guess that depends on the portfolio size. I've seen various figures ranging from $10bn to $34bn so it could be a pretty small element.

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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by Paul Waine » Sat Jan 16, 2021 2:26 pm

aggi wrote:
Sat Jan 16, 2021 1:30 pm
I guess that depends on the portfolio size. I've seen various figures ranging from $10bn to $34bn so it could be a pretty small element.
Hi aggi, even if we take the $34bn number, placing over £100 million with English football clubs is a "big position." As I say, even MSD guys have got the knowledge and the appetite for football club debts, then they are better securitising some of their positions as loan notes for others to invest and diversifying their position with number of separate clubs.

It's no more than a guess of mine, we can see that the charges they have registered over Calder Vale and Kettering assets refers to being agents for themselves and others. I'd expect all debenture docs to include this phrase. I'd need to see the loan note docs to know whether it means that MSD has plans to transfer some of their Burnley debt in the same way as I believe they've done with Southampton.

Exciting times.

UTC

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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by WalkdenClaret » Sun Jan 17, 2021 1:35 am

So here we are.
After 138 years of proudly punching about above weight, bringing entertainment, smiles, pure enjoyment, screams, frustration, arguments, to the small town of Burnley, we become a footnote in the Northern Powerhouse / American financial speculators, who really, really can't believe how easy it was to identify a club and see how easy and cheap it was to mortgage the land in Burnley and Padiham.

"Burnley Express headline May 2025" "
"Calder Vale assets proudly announced their commitment to the Northern Powerhouse / Local Communities fund obligations". As promised', the new premium housing developments at Gawthorpe and BFC memorial park will include not only speed bumps but also a zebra crossing at each location. Calder Vale are keen to stress they could have built another tiny house on both sites, but will forfeit a small amount of our vast profit, following the acquisition of Burnley FC's assets. In recognition of all the loyal soccer fans, we are very proud to announce that both the speed bumps and zebra crossings will be painted in Claret and Blue.

We wish every success to AFC Burnley in finding a place to hold trials and have given them the phone number of someone in the parks and recreation department of the Burnsley Metro City Authority
. "

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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by RicardoMontalban » Sun Jan 17, 2021 7:42 am

WalkdenClaret wrote:
Sun Jan 17, 2021 1:35 am
So here we are.
After 138 years of proudly punching about above weight, bringing entertainment, smiles, pure enjoyment, screams, frustration, arguments, to the small town of Burnley, we become a footnote in the Northern Powerhouse / American financial speculators, who really, really can't believe how easy it was to identify a club and see how easy and cheap it was to mortgage the land in Burnley and Padiham.

"Burnley Express headline May 2025" "
"Calder Vale assets proudly announced their commitment to the Northern Powerhouse / Local Communities fund obligations". As promised', the new premium housing developments at Gawthorpe and BFC memorial park will include not only speed bumps but also a zebra crossing at each location. Calder Vale are keen to stress they could have built another tiny house on both sites, but will forfeit a small amount of our vast profit, following the acquisition of Burnley FC's assets. In recognition of all the loyal soccer fans, we are very proud to announce that both the speed bumps and zebra crossings will be painted in Claret and Blue.

We wish every success to AFC Burnley in finding a place to hold trials and have given them the phone number of someone in the parks and recreation department of the Burnsley Metro City Authority
. "
A tad hysterical. And if those years dossing around the bottom 2 divisions (or indeed the lower reaches of the champ) are your idea of punching above our weight, maybe you need to set your sights a little higher.

Maybe this doesn’t work out but perhaps give it longer than a fortnight before we wet the bed so comprehensively?

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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by Steve-Harpers-perm » Sun Jan 17, 2021 9:01 am

WalkdenClaret wrote:
Sun Jan 17, 2021 1:35 am
So here we are.
After 138 years of proudly punching about above weight, bringing entertainment, smiles, pure enjoyment, screams, frustration, arguments, to the small town of Burnley, we become a footnote in the Northern Powerhouse / American financial speculators, who really, really can't believe how easy it was to identify a club and see how easy and cheap it was to mortgage the land in Burnley and Padiham.

"Burnley Express headline May 2025" "
"Calder Vale assets proudly announced their commitment to the Northern Powerhouse / Local Communities fund obligations". As promised', the new premium housing developments at Gawthorpe and BFC memorial park will include not only speed bumps but also a zebra crossing at each location. Calder Vale are keen to stress they could have built another tiny house on both sites, but will forfeit a small amount of our vast profit, following the acquisition of Burnley FC's assets. In recognition of all the loyal soccer fans, we are very proud to announce that both the speed bumps and zebra crossings will be painted in Claret and Blue.

We wish every success to AFC Burnley in finding a place to hold trials and have given them the phone number of someone in the parks and recreation department of the Burnsley Metro City Authority
. "
Those years in the 4th division punching above our weight were the best.

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