arise_sir_charge wrote: ↑

Fri Sep 25, 2020 8:03 am

A few further observations, all those being sceptical appear to forget that the man they trust implicitly, Mike Garlick is the man that appears to be looking to get out! Equally, they appear to trust him to run the club but not sell the club.

DCWat is right in that the moneyball aspect can only be money ball in the event it is less mainstream. However, a moneyball style project that brings through a conveyor belt of sellable talent is certainly a model that could work with a club like ours. It’s how we have always existed albeit without the technology aspect, this would just be giving us the technology and funds to continue that model in a market that has got ahead of us. Even the hidden gems come at a premium these days.

Who could blame Mike Garlick wanting to get out. He's worked miracles along with Kilby and Dyche, yet he gets slagged off every window.

As for buying untapped talent, it only makes money if you sell them for a profit, and if you sell your best players eventually you get relegated. What happens when the untapped talent then turn you down.
I'd also ask what is the bench mark. Do we buy players for 5 million with the intention of selling them for 20, or buy them for 20m with the intention of selling for 60. Because there is a world of difference between the two.
Somewhere on this thread ot was compared to Brentfords model of recruitment, I'd ask where are Brentford , and where could they have been if they hadn't sold all those players they unearthed.
It doesn't matter how good the players are, if time isn't given for someone to mould them into a team. That's a lot harder to do if we operate on a conveyor belt of players.

Do these Americans understand that, are they willing to give a manager time to continue success on the pitch, before they look for success off it.

There are a lot of unanswered questions to all of this, and it concerns me that what they see as success is a million miles away from what we as fans call success.

its not about "slagging" anybody, surely there is a logic in acknowledging that in order to progress when your surrounded by billionaire competitors, it makes good business sense to shorten the odds in terms of accessing greater amounts of funding.
we ALL know the success has been attained by good management practices at Burnley, being astute with finances has been a necessity. That doesn't mean we can remain static though. As it stands it appears we can hold our own for the time being, but that won't last too long. Eventually our lack of economic clout will be our downfall.The reason there is a top six is because they are backed by huge amounts of money. Those that come nowhere near inevitably risk tumbling back down to obscurity.

I’m against. I support Burnley because it is about more than money and investment. Through good and bad it’s a reflection of who we are as a town. I’m proud that we are locally owned and have a team of players from the region (I’m sounding very League of Gentleman!) To finish top 10 twice is an absolutely brilliant achievement for a club like ours, one that doesn’t get enough credit from within and without.

I look down down on the likes of City and Chelsea because they have lost a connection with their history and people. I might sound a little ‘fluffy’ here but it all sounds cold and calculating and not the passion I associate with supporting Burnley. UTC.

joey13 wrote: ↑

Fri Sep 25, 2020 6:28 am

Are they interested in investing, sound more like asset strippers

Buying Burnley to asset strip isn't really worth it.

The club is operating perfectly well at the moment, whoever buys it won't be picking it up for a bargain price. Our training ground and stadium aren't worth much because they don't really have value beyond a training ground and stadium.

We have a few players who could be sold for big money but not really enough to make up the purchase amount. You could in theory sell off all of our players to get a hugely reduced wage bill, get the money in for the players and bank the Premier League money but the kind of firesale to do that is going to depress the transfer values.

Passing Clouds wrote: ↑

Fri Sep 25, 2020 11:10 am

I’m proud that we are locally owned and have a team of players from the region (I’m sounding very League of Gentleman!)

Do you mean “local” like our New Zealander leading goal scorer ?!!!
It’s great to have someone playing for us from the region like Jay but these are few and far between at our club and every other club in the Premier League.

BenWickes wrote: ↑

Fri Sep 25, 2020 5:59 am

Both parties will want it done before the window closes

As for announcing it on Burnley market. That would be so like Burnley.

Window closes in ten days - I can't imagine for one minute that you could get a deal through and then the PL's owners and directors test in that time.


as for the announcement, I got up early this morning and went down to the market full of excitement. What a waste of time, no announcement and the black pudding shop gone.

ClaretTony wrote: ↑

Fri Sep 25, 2020 11:29 am

Window closes in ten days - I can't imagine for one minute that you could get a deal through and then the PL's owners and directors test in that time.


as for the announcement, I got up early this morning and went down to the market full of excitement. What a waste of time, no announcement and the black pudding shop gone.

Black pudding shop gone! Worst news of 2020 so far.

TVC15 wrote: ↑

Fri Sep 25, 2020 11:28 am

Do you mean “local” like our New Zealander leading goal scorer ?!!!
It’s great to have someone playing for us from the region like Jay but these are few and far between at our club and every other club in the Premier League.

Taylor, Bardsley, Tarks, Mee, Brownhill, Stephens, McNeil, Jay, Westwood.

Guess I meant Northern rather than Burnley TVC15.

Steve-Harpers-perm wrote: ↑

Fri Sep 25, 2020 10:53 am

This is a local club for local people we’ll have no trouble here!

Is that a quote from our local MP?

A lot of the conversation on this thread is quite circular, I am getting dizzy

I'm very much with Passing Clouds on this one. Burnley have achieved something unique, and I also look down on clubs like City who have achieved nothing accept receive masses of funding from a vicious totalitarian regime. Without that they would be nowhere near. Burnley are by far the best club in the country, because of what has been achieved, and the manner in which we turn over the money machines from time to time is a pure delight. Being owned US speculators would spoil all of that and bring us down to the level of other Premier League teams.

So the posters in the know said an announcement this morning, then the Telepgraph article says ‘not imminent’ and suddenly the new stance is that it was only an announcement and because it is leaked to the press there are no more announcements likely.

Sounds like this is in the early exploration stages and nothing more. Is it possible the PL can approve it before it is made public or does that only come after an accepted bid?

Steddyman wrote: ↑

Fri Sep 25, 2020 12:13 pm

.....Sounds like this is in the early exploration stages and nothing more. Is it possible the PL can approve it before it is made public or does that only come after an accepted bid?

as I said conversation is getting circular

Chester Perry wrote: ↑

Thu Sep 24, 2020 12:04 am

If it wasn't essentially done, with the news breaking in this way then history would suggest it never would be done, almost all deals at Premier League level that are in the media early fail, you could say that about our club too in the last 40 years

I don't agree with the comparison to other clubs like Manchester City. Surely what makes clubs like them dislikeable isn't the fact they spend more money, but they spend money that isn't earned directly by the club.

Take Liverpool for example, they are a team who have had to sell but still have made success of it. There's no shame of us trying to do that albeit on a smaller scale.

If you can make a sustainable profit from initial investment it's very different from being millions in debt and being bailed out by rich ownership.

superdimitri wrote: ↑

Fri Sep 25, 2020 12:23 pm

I don't agree with the comparison to other clubs like Manchester City. Surely what makes clubs like them dislikeable isn't the fact they spend more money, but they spend money that isn't earned directly by the club.

Take Liverpool for example, they are a team who have had to sell but still have made success of it. There's no shame of us trying to do that albeit on a smaller scale.

If you can make a sustainable profit from initial investment it's very different from being millions in debt and being bailed out by rich ownership.

Liverpool was an almost unique opportunity in world football - available cheap - required some significant investment in infrastructure and in the football side (on and off field), relatively weak commercial structure - huge global fan base, masses of media support, incredible history on which to market and still a major figure in the worlds most commercially viable league. getting that straight was always going to mean the investment would yield a greater return in the value of the club. It was what is known as a "Unicorn" opportunity. In the last decade only AC Milan has come close as a similar opportunity and they have much greater commercial and infrastructural challenges.

and to give you a sense of the opportunity it was - If the Burnley sale does go through it could be for a price greater than FSG paid for Liverpool, which is now valued north of £2 billion

Steddyman wrote: ↑

Fri Sep 25, 2020 12:13 pm

So the posters in the know said an announcement this morning, then the Telepgraph article says ‘not imminent’ and suddenly the new stance is that it was only an announcement and because it is leaked to the press there are no more announcements likely.

Sounds like this is in the early exploration stages and nothing more. Is it possible the PL can approve it before it is made public or does that only come after an accepted bid?

It’s far past an exploration stage. As I’ve mentioned the club is one part of a larger puzzle.

Danieljwaterhouse wrote: ↑

Fri Sep 25, 2020 12:36 pm

It’s far past an exploration stage. As I’ve mentioned the club is one part of a larger puzzle.

Is it now likely to happen, and if so, when ?

randomclaret2 wrote: ↑

Fri Sep 25, 2020 12:39 pm

Is it now likely to happen, and if so, when ?

It’s not my deal, so timeframes are not something I can say.

It will happen, I am certain of that.

I’ve spoken at length about the moving parts and how I see those working.

I still think we’ll first see money moving on an exchange, that’ll be an early morning release.

Chester Perry wrote: ↑

Fri Sep 25, 2020 12:33 pm

Liverpool was an almost unique opportunity in world football - available cheap - required some significant investment in infrastructure and in the football side (on and off field), relatively weak commercial structure - huge global fan base, masses of media support, incredible history on which to market and still a major figure in the worlds most commercially viable league. getting that straight was always going to mean the investment would yield a greater return in the value of the club. It was what is known as a "Unicorn" opportunity. In the last decade only AC Milan has come close as a similar opportunity and they have much greater commercial and infrastructural challenges.

and to give you a sense of the opportunity it was - If the Burnley sale does go through it could be for a price greater than FSG paid for Liverpool, which is now valued north of £2 billion

What I'm trying to say is the takeover won't result in similar ventures from clubs who spend money they don't have. It will be about making Burnley profitable in the long term. It's not the same as clubs that cheat there way to the top.

Danieljwaterhouse wrote: ↑

Fri Sep 25, 2020 12:50 pm

I still think we’ll first see money moving on an exchange, that’ll be an early morning release.

What do you mean by that line? What money on what exchange?

Erasmus wrote: ↑

Fri Sep 25, 2020 12:10 pm

I also look down on clubs like City who have achieved nothing


Burnley are by far the best club in the country, because of what has been achieved

Which City have achieved nothing? Surely not Manchester who have won like 15 of the last 20 domestic trophies

Investors invest in capital ventures. That money has to move, it can come from a private individual, meaning it wouldn’t be announced. Or it can come from a company, if that’s company reports to an exchange, then it’ll be announced.

RVclaret wrote: ↑

Fri Sep 25, 2020 11:31 am

Black pudding shop gone! Worst news of 2020 so far.

Bought by Americans (apparently) and went bust and closed within 6 months. A cautionary tale I'd suggest!

Dark Cloud wrote: ↑

Fri Sep 25, 2020 1:26 pm

Bought by Americans (apparently) and went bust and closed within 6 months. A cautionary tale I'd suggest!

Anyone want to buy a black pudding? Great prices. No assets or covering, just the black pudding in it's natural state.

Paul Waine wrote: ↑

Fri Sep 25, 2020 1:38 pm

Anyone want to buy a black pudding? Great prices. No assets or covering, just the black pudding in it's natural state.

Apparently they (these Americans) approached the previous stall holders and made a bid which was accepted and then (ALMOST unbelievably) they managed to pass the allegedly stringent "Black Pudding Stall Holders Fit and Proper Owners Test", yet still ran it into the ground within 6 months! I'm speechless! And I don't even like black pudding!!

Dark Cloud wrote: ↑

Fri Sep 25, 2020 1:43 pm

Apparently they (these Americans) approached the previous stall holders and made a bid which was accepted and then (ALMOST unbelievably) they managed to pass the allegedly stringent "Black Pudding Stall Holders Fit and Proper Owners Test", yet still ran it into the ground within 6 months! I'm speechless! And I don't even like black pudding!!

Let's have no suggestion that the stall was trying to sell black puddings fed on chlorinated chicken and pumped full of steroids! Though, we know that's how the America market knows black puddings should be served.

Our owner will currently be vary careful who they sell too - its a well run club, however anyone wants to measure it. Someone buying the club with no debt could easily factor the next 5 years of TV money and borrow close to £250 million pounds - take that out of the club and bugger off!


TBDG

Paul Waine wrote: ↑

Fri Sep 25, 2020 1:52 pm

Let's have no suggestion that the stall was trying to sell black puddings fed on chlorinated chicken and pumped full of steroids! Though, we know that's how the America market knows black puddings should be served.

Yes, I heard them quoted as saying they realised too late that they'd bought into something they didn't really understand at all as it was peculiarly regional and parochial and not conforming to any of the accepted worldwide stereotypes. So having learned that lesson the hard way and lost shed loads of cash in the process, they have turned their attention to the football club apparently!

Danieljwaterhouse wrote: ↑

Fri Sep 25, 2020 1:06 pm

Investors invest in capital ventures. That money has to move, it can come from a private individual, meaning it wouldn’t be announced. Or it can come from a company, if that’s company reports to an exchange, then it’ll be announced.

It will be announced, but only if you know what specific stock the transaction relates to and you are monitoring the market at that time. It won’t necessarily tell you the purpose, only the size.

Steddyman wrote: ↑

Fri Sep 25, 2020 12:13 pm

So the posters in the know said an announcement this morning, then the Telepgraph article says ‘not imminent’ and suddenly the new stance is that it was only an announcement and because it is leaked to the press there are no more announcements likely.

Sounds like this is in the early exploration stages and nothing more. Is it possible the PL can approve it before it is made public or does that only come after an accepted bid?

To clarify. I was told an announcement was coming the day before the Sheff Utd game. I posted that on the Blades match thread regards investment/takeover and was effectively dismissed. It was leaked this week that we were indeed in talks with Americans. Which I have been saying for weeks on here. Maybe that leak has delayed the announcement. It may well have been subject to an NDA.
I may have said an announcement may be made today but I am not directly involved. I don't know if there are last minute fine details that need ironing out. As for the fit and proper test etc. I don't know if that's already been put to the PL. If not it's too late for this window.
Whichever way. The information about American investment and talks/meetings I've been told over the past number of weeks is accurate.

There is an NDA

Danieljwaterhouse wrote: ↑

Fri Sep 25, 2020 2:42 pm

There is an NDA

One would be astonished at the sloppiness of it all if there wasn't

Thanks for the clarifications. Let’s hope we find out soon.

Sean can’t continue on the way he is with the lack of investment in the squad, so something needs to change.

So from the Telegraph article, they could be wanting to use us to bring in prospects and sell them on at a profit, like what happens at Brentford.

I'm not sure what to think of this, because that wouldn't really mean we have to be in the Premier League? They could use the club for that, regardless of what division we're in.

Would prefer not to go down the venky route, have to be very careful here

FactualFrank wrote: ↑

Fri Sep 25, 2020 3:28 pm

So from the Telegraph article, they could be wanting to use us to bring in prospects and sell them on at a profit, like what happens at Brentford.

I'm not sure what to think of this, because that wouldn't really mean we have to be in the Premier League? They could use the club for that, regardless of what division we're in.

The club is a doorway into a much wider investment plan. Yes they could accommodate this with a championship club. Your international market is the premier league, the biggest prices are for premier league players, ergo, it’s symbiotic.

Stop worrying, it’ll all be okay.

Danieljwaterhouse wrote: ↑

Fri Sep 25, 2020 3:40 pm

The club is a doorway into a much wider investment plan. Yes they could accommodate this with a championship club. Your international market is the premier league, the biggest prices are for premier league players, ergo, it’s symbiotic.

Stop worrying, it’ll all be okay.

The only thing I'm worrying about is whether the steak in my fridge that's a day past it's date, tastes alright.

I have done a bit of digging to try and further educate myself on all this, what I have been told is from a few people (USA BASED WHO CLAIM TO KNOW THE MAIN GUY) and in no way provides facts and is completely based on rumour. As a by the by, they did say he is a great guy & BFC would be in safe hands.

AKL is a relatively new company as we all know, the worth beyond what we can see is considerably more than MG but is also considerably much less than a $1Billion so we would not be entering in to the real arena of billionaire backers who use clubs as toys to play with and have endless funds.

There main business is in analytics and is not yet selling/producing any real exciting revenue, they are trying hard like all new companies to market this and grow, growth can be organic (slow) or it can be acquisition (fast). If it is an acquisition they will almost certainly use there analytics tools to change BFC recruitment policy drastically, can be a good or bad thing, but it still will boil down to having to pay for players. Of course there model will entail bringing in virtually unknown players but to prove the analytics you will need to play them, make them into stars or assets you can add value to the club. This brings may risks with it but they would need to do it very fast or they are waiting to Jan to even start proving it.

There is an alternative that may or may not have been mentioned, MG and ALK are in discussions about trialing the analytics and that some targets have been used to identify unknown players (maybe a sense of frustration from SD in this model) such that BFC can be a test case for ALK since it's pretty well know regarding how great BFC recruitment policy is. If this was proven there product would be sought after by many and the business where they make money would grow much faster/higher.

ALK seems to have a really great upside if the model is used successfully in that they can use the same model for other clubs if proven at BFC. On the other hand if they Acquire BFC and use the model successfully would BFC owners want to improving all other clubs, that's a big question for me in all this.

ALK in this last week have probably had more people talking about them than ever before

DISCLAIMER
All of the above is conjecture and rumour with no factual evidence to back it up

hoskinsgoalatswansea wrote: ↑

Fri Sep 25, 2020 8:29 am

These guys aren’t Saudi billionaires. A change of ownership doesn’t necessarily mean investment in players. I worry about our club being owned by someone who isn’t a fan.

they aren't supposed to be - the 3 leading it are the ALK Capital investment firm - they will be representing investors and with that that there is nothing to say either way that one of the people/groups that are representing isn't worth 2 billion/ It's anyone's guess at this stage.

The 3 leading it (Alan Pace and co) don't need to have money

wouldnt worry me if the owners weren't fans, the players we use aren't.

I wouldn't be in the least bit surprised if ALK had a multi-club model in mind it is a very popular concept in Private Equity circles

From all the posts that both Daniel and Ben have made it is also pretty obvious that ALK are the front for the Football side of things, but that overall there is a consortium involved and providing some of the capital, which then gives them a foot in the door (socially, politically and economically) with local and regional Investment opportunities. This is also a de-facto approach for American Private Equity in Europe.

All of which has best been illustrated by City Football Group and extensively covered on the MMT thread - only yesterday Manchester City Council gave approval for a 21k plus indoor area at the Ethihad site (the councils own planning officer said the viability of 2 such arenas in the city was not viable, the council own the MEN Arena) - this facility is one of the reasons Silver Lake (it is one of their areas of speciality) invested $500m in CFG a couple of years back. Abu Dhabi is probably the largest single investor in the Manchester area, it is astonishing the amount they have spent in the city.

Ryan Reynolds ( the actor) buying Wrexham, He's from Vancouver maybe I can talk him into buying BFC.

Chester Perry wrote: ↑

Fri Sep 25, 2020 4:10 pm

I wouldn't be in the least bit surprised if ALK had a multi-club model in mind it is a very popular concept in Private Equity circles

From all the posts that both Daniel and Ben have made it is also pretty obvious that ALK are the front for the Football side of things, but that overall there is a consortium involved and providing some of the capital, which then gives them a foot in the door (socially, politically and economically) with local and regional Investment opportunities. This is also a de-facto approach for American Private Equity in Europe.

All of which has best been illustrated by City Football Group and extensively covered on the MMT thread - only yesterday Manchester City Council gave approval for a 21k plus indoor area at the Ethihad site (the councils own planning officer said the viability of 2 such arenas in the city was not viable, the council own the MEN Arena) - this facility is one of the reasons Silver Lake (it is one of their areas of speciality) invested $500m in CFG a couple of years back. Abu Dhabi is probably the largest single investor in the Manchester area, it is astonishing the amount they have spent in the city.

It’s nice when someone gets it!

Still waiting in a few apologies from the naysayers...

It's time to move forward ...

Steddyman wrote: ↑

Fri Sep 25, 2020 12:13 pm

Is it possible the PL can approve it before it is made public or does that only come after an accepted bid?

I would think the PL would only get involved when the deal is agreed in principle. Then any prospective new owners and directors will have to be approved by them.

vancouverclaret wrote: ↑

Fri Sep 25, 2020 4:25 pm

Ryan Reynolds ( the actor) buying Wrexham, He's from Vancouver maybe I can talk him into buying BFC.

There is a strong suspicion that that is about making a few documentary series (so from a production side the investment is cheap)

ClaretTony wrote: ↑

Fri Sep 25, 2020 5:03 pm

I would think the PL would only get involved when the deal is agreed in principle. Then any prospective new owners and directors will have to be approved by them.

which given all the talk about where this is at may well have already been done - it is still no guarantee that it will happen though

BenWickes wrote: ↑

Fri Sep 25, 2020 2:40 pm

To clarify. I was told an announcement was coming the day before the Sheff Utd game. I posted that on the Blades match thread regards investment/takeover and was effectively dismissed. It was leaked this week that we were indeed in talks with Americans. Which I have been saying for weeks on here. Maybe that leak has delayed the announcement. It may well have been subject to an NDA.
I may have said an announcement may be made today but I am not directly involved. I don't know if there are last minute fine details that need ironing out. As for the fit and proper test etc. I don't know if that's already been put to the PL. If not it's too late for this window.
Whichever way. The information about American investment and talks/meetings I've been told over the past number of weeks is accurate.

Well I don't happen to be in the know about this but even I knew that the talks had been going on for a while (months), and that they'd been to the club on numerous occasions.

I find it remarkable how many people are still referencing Venkys.

You only have to read one of the published articles about this to know that they are nothing remotely like Venkys.

ClaretTony wrote: ↑

Fri Sep 25, 2020 5:09 pm

Well I don't happen to be in the know about this but even I knew that the talks had been going on for a while (months), and that they'd been to the club on numerous occasions.

That's fair enough. It seems quite a lot on here weren't aware. I was just passing on information I'd heard that was correct. I was replying to a lot of mixed messages, some lost in translation and people who laughed off the suggestion up until a few days ago. Which is fair enough. Little old Burnley etc. Nobody truly knows what, when or where until it happens. Only those at BFC and the opposite party. It is what it is and we all have to wait and see how it develops.