BFC Finances
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BFC Finances
This has probably been covered elsewhere but I can't find the post.
Can anybody give me a real simple summary of the club finances at present?
This is what I have been told.
Over the past 5 years
£600m income
£220m wages
£40m net transfer loss
£15m barnfield
£15m running costs
£10m other expenses (shareholder dividend? corner stands?)
To me that leaves about £290m in the bank but I can't believe that.
Can anybody give me a real simple summary of the club finances at present?
This is what I have been told.
Over the past 5 years
£600m income
£220m wages
£40m net transfer loss
£15m barnfield
£15m running costs
£10m other expenses (shareholder dividend? corner stands?)
To me that leaves about £290m in the bank but I can't believe that.
Re: BFC Finances
You need to up your wages column
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Re: BFC Finances
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Re: BFC Finances
So what is the figure for wages?
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Re: BFC Finances
https://twitter.com/SwissRamble/status/ ... 71776?s=19
https://twitter.com/KieranMaguire/statu ... 10017?s=19
https://chadwickmedia.wordpress.com/202 ... 0-million/
(Garlick predicted a £50 million shortfall due to Covid)
http://priceoffootball.com/burnley-2017 ... were-dead/
Here you go
https://twitter.com/KieranMaguire/statu ... 10017?s=19
https://chadwickmedia.wordpress.com/202 ... 0-million/
(Garlick predicted a £50 million shortfall due to Covid)
http://priceoffootball.com/burnley-2017 ... were-dead/
Here you go
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Re: BFC Finances
£290m in the bank
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Re: BFC Finances
It kind of goes to show how far off Kilby was when he thought 100 million would set us up for ten years.
Re: BFC Finances
Shareholders dividends
Re: BFC Finances
£290 million in the bank? Christ, I think you're out by a factor of 100.
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Re: BFC Finances
Probably more like £2.90 in the bank
Re: BFC Finances
This thread highlights the complete misunderstanding that most supporters have in regards to football clubs and financing them. It’s no wonder so many fans are are angry when they base their understanding of how much money there is (in fact isn’t in our case) to spend during a transfer window on Facebook maths and Twitter quotes which are massively wrong.
Enjoy the ride, whilst your on it
Enjoy the ride, whilst your on it
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Re: BFC Finances
I’m tired of all the negative threads. The club is financially sound and Covid has thrown a huge unknown element into future finances.
We are in our 5th season in the PL and finishing mid table. That’s a huge achievement from the Owners, Directors, Manager and players. Huge!
But some of you think outside investors would take us even higher. Really? We are never going to be a top 4 club because we don’t have a huge City fan base?
I suspect the board thought we would have sold one of our key players by now and that would have given Sean funds for 2 or 3 players. If an offer of £35million comes in today for Tarks, I would take it. But I don’t know if we could sign anyone so late in the day.
We’ve got off to a poor start, not for the first time. But the number of threads calling for Sean to move on or Garlick to go are very sad. I think we fans need to have more faith and toughen up, and get behind the Club and team.
Be realistic. Enjoy the season, we will improve!
We are in our 5th season in the PL and finishing mid table. That’s a huge achievement from the Owners, Directors, Manager and players. Huge!
But some of you think outside investors would take us even higher. Really? We are never going to be a top 4 club because we don’t have a huge City fan base?
I suspect the board thought we would have sold one of our key players by now and that would have given Sean funds for 2 or 3 players. If an offer of £35million comes in today for Tarks, I would take it. But I don’t know if we could sign anyone so late in the day.
We’ve got off to a poor start, not for the first time. But the number of threads calling for Sean to move on or Garlick to go are very sad. I think we fans need to have more faith and toughen up, and get behind the Club and team.
Be realistic. Enjoy the season, we will improve!
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Re: BFC Finances
Thanks Zlatan. This is the main reason I started the thread.Zlatan wrote: ↑Sun Oct 04, 2020 11:18 amThis thread highlights the complete misunderstanding that most supporters have in regards to football clubs and financing them. It’s no wonder so many fans are are angry when they base their understanding of how much money there is (in fact isn’t in our case) to spend during a transfer window on Facebook maths and Twitter quotes which are massively wrong.
Enjoy the ride, whilst your on it
I was one of those that misunderstood but now I understand the issues.
Tbh makes me more supportive of MG's approach.
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Re: BFC Finances
Thanks god that really puts things in perspective.GodIsADeeJay81 wrote: ↑Sun Oct 04, 2020 10:47 amhttps://twitter.com/SwissRamble/status/ ... 71776?s=19
https://twitter.com/KieranMaguire/statu ... 10017?s=19
https://chadwickmedia.wordpress.com/202 ... 0-million/
(Garlick predicted a £50 million shortfall due to Covid)
http://priceoffootball.com/burnley-2017 ... were-dead/
Here you go
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Re: BFC Finances
£87 million a year x 5. £435 million on wages.
I put some calcs to Royboy and he said it was pretty much spot on - it basically leaves us with £5 million profit per season.
I put some calcs to Royboy and he said it was pretty much spot on - it basically leaves us with £5 million profit per season.
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Re: BFC Finances
I wish he was still our Chairman though !ClaretAndJew wrote: ↑Sun Oct 04, 2020 10:55 amIt kind of goes to show how far off Kilby was when he thought 100 million would set us up for ten years.
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Re: BFC Finances
I would imagine the wage bill may be over 87 this yr with the top 10 finish and bonuses i may be wrong..
Re: BFC Finances
Whilst I know that Barry was a great Chairman, I'm not sure what you think would be any different if he was the Chairman now?
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Re: BFC Finances
Royboy knows more than me on this one, but would assume that would come under bonuses and not wages.Sheedyclaret wrote: ↑Sun Oct 04, 2020 11:49 amI would imagine the wage bill may be over 87 this yr with the top 10 finish and bonuses i may be wrong..
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Re: BFC Finances
Being a Finance Director I have seen the significant cash flow implications of the Covid outbreak first hand and this will undoubtedly have had a huge impact on the clubs financial position also . I think I read on here - I stand to be corrected - that the club did not take part in the Government's furlough scheme at all which is commendable from a social viewpoint but will have not aided the revenue bottom line . I suspect as mentioned by others we have very limited financial resources without a significant input from the current shareholders / loans from the bank or new owners . Time for us all to be patient with the club about further incoming of players and fully be behind the manager /current players and the club in this difficult period .
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Re: BFC Finances
Agree, but we have to find a way to get a better 3rd choice cb than Kev and an attacking threat from the rhs. Teams are just ganging up on Dwight and Charlie and we can't create. That involves risk. If we don't sort it we will be in a relegation fight for sure.LoveCurryPies wrote: ↑Sun Oct 04, 2020 11:21 amI’m tired of all the negative threads. The club is financially sound and Covid has thrown a huge unknown element into future finances.
We are in our 5th season in the PL and finishing mid table. That’s a huge achievement from the Owners, Directors, Manager and players. Huge!
But some of you think outside investors would take us even higher. Really? We are never going to be a top 4 club because we don’t have a huge City fan base?
I suspect the board thought we would have sold one of our key players by now and that would have given Sean funds for 2 or 3 players. If an offer of £35million comes in today for Tarks, I would take it. But I don’t know if we could sign anyone so late in the day.
We’ve got off to a poor start, not for the first time. But the number of threads calling for Sean to move on or Garlick to go are very sad. I think we fans need to have more faith and toughen up, and get behind the Club and team.
Be realistic. Enjoy the season, we will improve!
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Re: BFC Finances
That's my thinking too. It doesn't help the chairman when the manager is coming out and signalling he's a tight twohat. Which suggests SD doesn't know the full facts and the reasons why we're not spending. Sure, it could be that Garlick is a tight tit, but he could have genuine, justifiable reasons.redcloud203 wrote: ↑Sun Oct 04, 2020 11:58 amBeing a Finance Director I have seen the significant cash flow implications of the Covid outbreak first hand and this will undoubtedly have had a huge impact on the clubs financial position also . I think I read on here - I stand to be corrected - that the club did not take part in the Government's furlough scheme at all which is commendable from a social viewpoint but will have not aided the revenue bottom line . I suspect as mentioned by others we have very limited financial resources without a significant input from the current shareholders / loans from the bank or new owners . Time for us all to be patient with the club about further incoming of players and fully be behind the manager /current players and the club in this difficult period .
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Re: BFC Finances
Hi Frank, whether we call it wages or bonuses in addition to weekly wages, it is all part of cost of employing staff - as, for that matter is the HMRC 13.8% employer's national insurance charge. The line in the accounts will say "Staff Costs."FactualFrank wrote: ↑Sun Oct 04, 2020 11:54 amRoyboy knows more than me on this one, but would assume that would come under bonuses and not wages.
Does anyone who is earning £10,000 per week and more actually get paid weekly?
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Re: BFC Finances
Afternoon Paul, hope you've recovered from yesterday - might take me until Wednesday!Paul Waine wrote: ↑Sun Oct 04, 2020 12:15 pmHi Frank, whether we call it wages or bonuses in addition to weekly wages, it is all part of cost of employing staff - as, for that matter is the HMRC 13.8% employer's national insurance charge. The line in the accounts will say "Staff Costs."
Does anyone who is earning £10,000 per week and more actually get paid weekly?
Not sure on finances, it's something I pass over to a friend who sorts it for me, once a year. I earn from one source every 4 weeks, so 13 times a year, but like you say, don't think many people get paid weekly.
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Re: BFC Finances
I read something years ago that suggested footballers get paid quarterly, but that may not apply to all clubs/players.Paul Waine wrote: ↑Sun Oct 04, 2020 12:15 pmHi Frank, whether we call it wages or bonuses in addition to weekly wages, it is all part of cost of employing staff - as, for that matter is the HMRC 13.8% employer's national insurance charge. The line in the accounts will say "Staff Costs."
Does anyone who is earning £10,000 per week and more actually get paid weekly?
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Re: BFC Finances
Firstly Barry was a football man unlike many Chairmen.I am extremely confident that our manager’s budget would have been a shade bigger than the current one.
Secondly I wouldn’t worry that any sale of the club MIGHT not be most beneficial for the shareholders.
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Re: BFC Finances
Given a paltry profit of just £5m (in PL terms) per season then surely this means that our position as a PL club will not be sustainable for much longer without significant outside investment. Nobody knows how much longer the effect of Covid restrictions will last and even major player sales will only be a short term fix.
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Re: BFC Finances
I hate it when people who actually know what they’re talking about post on here. #garlickstinksredcloud203 wrote: ↑Sun Oct 04, 2020 11:58 amBeing a Finance Director I have seen the significant cash flow implications of the Covid outbreak first hand and this will undoubtedly have had a huge impact on the clubs financial position also . I think I read on here - I stand to be corrected - that the club did not take part in the Government's furlough scheme at all which is commendable from a social viewpoint but will have not aided the revenue bottom line . I suspect as mentioned by others we have very limited financial resources without a significant input from the current shareholders / loans from the bank or new owners . Time for us all to be patient with the club about further incoming of players and fully be behind the manager /current players and the club in this difficult period .
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Re: BFC Finances
I’m sure I read an article or saw Swiss ramble post that after five season Burnley have made a gross profit of 16 million.
Take into consideration we have lost close to £50 million due to Corona we are probably in the minus figures now.
Take into consideration we have lost close to £50 million due to Corona we are probably in the minus figures now.
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Re: BFC Finances
Hi brexit, hope you don't mind me saying your post gave me a laugh this morning.brexit wrote: ↑Sun Oct 04, 2020 10:39 amThis has probably been covered elsewhere but I can't find the post.
Can anybody give me a real simple summary of the club finances at present?
This is what I have been told.
Over the past 5 years
£600m income
£220m wages
£40m net transfer loss
£15m barnfield
£15m running costs
£10m other expenses (shareholder dividend? corner stands?)
To me that leaves about £290m in the bank but I can't believe that.
If you are interested in the club's accounts they are available online at Companies House: Burnley Football Club Holdings Limited, company number 08335231. It's free to search Companies House Beta - it's been free to access for several years now (I'm not sure why they still call it "beta" after all this time).
Of course, there's a delay in the accounts being published. The latest set of accounts available were for the financial year 1-July-2018 to 30-Jun-2019 and were published on Companies House on 6 April 2020.
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Re: BFC Finances
We wont finish in the bottom 3
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Re: BFC Finances
That's us fu**ed then.
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Re: BFC Finances
What's the current budget for Dyche and what do you think it would be under Kilby if he was still running the club?Rumpelstiltskin wrote: ↑Sun Oct 04, 2020 12:23 pmFirstly Barry was a football man unlike many Chairmen.I am extremely confident that our manager’s budget would have been a shade bigger than the current one.
Secondly I wouldn’t worry that any sale of the club MIGHT not be most beneficial for the shareholders.
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Re: BFC Finances
That would surprise me with respect to the "weekly wage" part of pay. I'd expect most clubs would pay the "fixed" amount monthly. I'd expect that players performance bonuses, whatever these are, may well be paid quarterly and the team bonuses for league position/cup successes etc are paid at the end of the season.GodIsADeeJay81 wrote: ↑Sun Oct 04, 2020 12:23 pmI read something years ago that suggested footballers get paid quarterly, but that may not apply to all clubs/players.
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Re: BFC Finances
It was finally updated to Companies House Service last year, I think.Paul Waine wrote: ↑Sun Oct 04, 2020 12:35 pmHi brexit, hope you don't mind me saying your post gave me a laugh this morning.
If you are interested in the club's accounts they are available online at Companies House: Burnley Football Club Holdings Limited, company number 08335231. It's free to search Companies House Beta - it's been free to access for several years now (I'm not sure why they still call it "beta" after all this time).
Of course, there's a delay in the accounts being published. The latest set of accounts available were for the financial year 1-July-2018 to 30-Jun-2019 and were published on Companies House on 6 April 2020.
Really useful resource - I don’t think many people realise it’s now free. Think it used to be £3 a time.
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Re: BFC Finances
Fans can digest a weekly wage quote easier than larger figures I find.Paul Waine wrote: ↑Sun Oct 04, 2020 12:39 pmThat would surprise me with respect to the "weekly wage" part of pay. I'd expect most clubs would pay the "fixed" amount monthly. I'd expect that players performance bonuses, whatever these are, may well be paid quarterly and the team bonuses for league position/cup successes etc are paid at the end of the season.
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Re: BFC Finances
If you have heard any of our manager’s interviews you will have heard him state that he’s never had a budget!GodIsADeeJay81 wrote: ↑Sun Oct 04, 2020 12:38 pmWhat's the current budget for Dyche and what do you think it would be under Kilby if he was still running the club?
I am confident it would be a little bit more than that...
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Re: BFC Finances
So you're just waffling away then without really having any idea what you're on about or why you think we'd be better off with Kilby...Rumpelstiltskin wrote: ↑Sun Oct 04, 2020 12:46 pmIf you have heard any of our manager’s interviews you will have heard him state that he’s never had a budget!
I am confident it would be a little bit more than that...
Re: BFC Finances
The old Burnsley again. I know this is about the Tykes. I get Look Northeast and Cumbria up here and on Friday the sports presenter actually said "The Magpies are looking for a convincing performance against Burnsley on Saturday evening"
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Re: BFC Finances
Very well done...Have a pleasant day !GodIsADeeJay81 wrote: ↑Sun Oct 04, 2020 12:48 pmSo you're just waffling away then without really having any idea what you're on about or why you think we'd be better off with Kilby...
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Re: BFC Finances
Are you trying to tell me that newspaper reporters are expected to be able to spell? Slightly unfair.GodIsADeeJay81 wrote: ↑Sun Oct 04, 2020 12:54 pmTry Bunrley...
Screenshot_20201003_212557_uk.co.bbc.android.sportdomestic.jpg
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Re: BFC Finances
Just revisited my notes on the 2018/19 accounts released earlier this year (intriguingly, the links on the club's website are now dead links, but Companies House still have the accounts on there).
The club had £41m in the bank and net assets of over double that (players tend to get undervalued in accounts because it is prudent not to assume a big future transfer fee). EBITDA, normally a good indication of how much is left to spend on players (or rainy day funds) had not dissimilar amounts like the analysis in the above Twitter threads pointed out above show.
The pandemic in 2019/20 has certainly affected things a bit, that much is clear.
But it also seems very clear to me that whilst the club doesn't have £100m to splash out in the way teams like Villa have done, similarly there is scope for some degree of spending, let me say £10m-£20m to just throw a figure out there. The risks to cash flow from the pandemic, while clear, are offset by obviously saleable assets who can go in a crisis - Tarky, Pope, Dwight, Wood etc. We could easily get £100m+ for those guys, three guaranteed to perform at PL level and one hugely promising. You'd have to be pessimist "par excellence" to think these can't offset pandemic losses.
So when I read things like "Burnley are still arguing amongst themselves" from Nixon about Wilson (see other thread), it doesn't make sense to me, especially if cash is spent on a young asset and so shouldn't affect the club value much. The club needs to get its act together in the next 24 hours and get Wilson in (if Dyche wants him) and CB cover at a far better level than Long.
p.s. Dyche doesn't escape criticism here - the Swiss Ramble tweet pointed out above talks through the Europa League money we would have won - millions for qualifying for the group stages, extra dosh per win in the group stages. Given this potential, to put Tarky on the bench and Mee in the stand in Athens (with such weak cover in Long, assuming Gibson was thought to be quality) makes no sense, that extra cash could have funded the backup we so clearly need. Managers should never pass up the chance to win those kind of games, and pass it up he did.
The club had £41m in the bank and net assets of over double that (players tend to get undervalued in accounts because it is prudent not to assume a big future transfer fee). EBITDA, normally a good indication of how much is left to spend on players (or rainy day funds) had not dissimilar amounts like the analysis in the above Twitter threads pointed out above show.
The pandemic in 2019/20 has certainly affected things a bit, that much is clear.
But it also seems very clear to me that whilst the club doesn't have £100m to splash out in the way teams like Villa have done, similarly there is scope for some degree of spending, let me say £10m-£20m to just throw a figure out there. The risks to cash flow from the pandemic, while clear, are offset by obviously saleable assets who can go in a crisis - Tarky, Pope, Dwight, Wood etc. We could easily get £100m+ for those guys, three guaranteed to perform at PL level and one hugely promising. You'd have to be pessimist "par excellence" to think these can't offset pandemic losses.
So when I read things like "Burnley are still arguing amongst themselves" from Nixon about Wilson (see other thread), it doesn't make sense to me, especially if cash is spent on a young asset and so shouldn't affect the club value much. The club needs to get its act together in the next 24 hours and get Wilson in (if Dyche wants him) and CB cover at a far better level than Long.
p.s. Dyche doesn't escape criticism here - the Swiss Ramble tweet pointed out above talks through the Europa League money we would have won - millions for qualifying for the group stages, extra dosh per win in the group stages. Given this potential, to put Tarky on the bench and Mee in the stand in Athens (with such weak cover in Long, assuming Gibson was thought to be quality) makes no sense, that extra cash could have funded the backup we so clearly need. Managers should never pass up the chance to win those kind of games, and pass it up he did.
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Re: BFC Finances
The monies for the group stage are not huge, and neither would have been our gate receipts - the cost of getting to the group stage would have eaten a fair chunk of them - this off the top of my head about the group stagesCrosspoolClarets wrote: ↑Sun Oct 04, 2020 2:39 pm
p.s. Dyche doesn't escape criticism here - the Swiss Ramble tweet pointed out above talks through the Europa League money we would have won - millions for qualifying for the group stages, extra dosh per win in the group stages. Given this potential, to put Tarky on the bench and Mee in the stand in Athens (with such weak cover in Long, assuming Gibson was thought to be quality) makes no sense, that extra cash could have funded the backup we so clearly need. Managers should never pass up the chance to win those kind of games, and pass it up he did.
- all wooden seats in the ground would have had to be replaced - UEFA requirement
- capacity in the ground would have been reduced to meet UEFA requirements on perimeter advertising
- no doubt we would have some major travel costs
- players would have accrued additional bonuses for their part in the games
on the up side we would have received additional commercial income from sponsors
and yes I was disappointed with that Athens side (more so with the officials) and thought we were desperately unlucky at the Turf
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Re: BFC Finances
Can you imagine making up the wages packet, like we did in the 60's and 70's?Paul Waine wrote: ↑Sun Oct 04, 2020 12:15 pmDoes anyone who is earning £10,000 per week and more actually get paid weekly?
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Re: BFC Finances
Others have corrected these figures better than I can, but what I do know is that none of our Directors have taken a dividend/salary out of the Club for many years. Directors have made loans to the Club in the past at better rates than those available from the Banks, but the last of these together with another loan were repaid during the 2014-15 season ...brexit wrote: ↑Sun Oct 04, 2020 10:39 amThis has probably been covered elsewhere but I can't find the post. Can anybody give me a real simple summary of the club finances at present?
This is what I have been told. Over the past 5 years ....
£600m income
£220m wages
£40m net transfer loss
£15m barnfield
£15m running costs
£10m other expenses (shareholder dividend? corner stands?)
To me that leaves about £290m in the bank but I can't believe that.
To give a little perspective, Tottenham's directors were paid a total of £10.3 million in the financial year ending June '19. They still owe in excess of £660m for the new stadium, £525m of which is being repaid in the form of interest bearing Bonds, that mature at various dates between 15 and 30 years time. They've also had to borrow £175m from the Bank of England to support their cash-flow over the next 12 months ...
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Re: BFC Finances
I've not seen a single person suggest an investor would take us even higher, I've seen plenty of people hoping that it would give the manager an opportunity to keep us in the division without having both his arms tied behind his back though - there's a huge difference to what you are implying I feelLoveCurryPies wrote: ↑Sun Oct 04, 2020 11:21 am
But some of you think outside investors would take us even higher. Really? We are never going to be a top 4 club because we don’t have a huge City fan base?
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Re: BFC Finances
It is very questionable that loans were made at better rates than the banks would offer a club - even today where rates have been at huge lows for a decade or more clubs are being charged between 9% and 15% p.a. (occasionally more) depending on their risk assessment of the business and banks usually will not offer money to clubs, or even private equity that is then loaned to clubs (one of the big players in this area recently folded due to a combination of loans not being repaid to them on time and banks refusing to loan them new monies. It is telling that clubs like Southampton and Everton have had to go to Private Equity recently for loans as no bank saw them as credit worthy, even with their wealthy backers and Premier League TV income.Clarets4me wrote: ↑Sun Oct 04, 2020 4:43 pmDirectors have made loans to the Club in the past at better rates than those available from the Banks, but the last of these together with another loan were repaid during the 2014-15 season ...
The Spurs loan from the Bank of England is interesting, but has to be repaid within 12 months I understand - they were able to secure it because their balance sheet/profit and loss accounts were so strong. It is telling that they are the only club to go down this route, the few others that may qualify (and it is a very few) have sought more flexible repayment terms at a higher cost.
Re: BFC Finances
In a nutshell, are we saying that to buy players we would have to sell (without going into the red)?