BFC Finances

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brexit
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BFC Finances

Post by brexit » Sun Oct 04, 2020 10:39 am

This has probably been covered elsewhere but I can't find the post.

Can anybody give me a real simple summary of the club finances at present?

This is what I have been told.

Over the past 5 years

£600m income
£220m wages
£40m net transfer loss
£15m barnfield
£15m running costs
£10m other expenses (shareholder dividend? corner stands?)

To me that leaves about £290m in the bank but I can't believe that.

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Re: BFC Finances

Post by bfcmartin » Sun Oct 04, 2020 10:41 am

You need to up your wages column

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Re: BFC Finances

Post by dpinsussex » Sun Oct 04, 2020 10:42 am

bfcmartin wrote:
Sun Oct 04, 2020 10:41 am
You need to up your wages column
To about 500m 🤣🤣🤣
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Re: BFC Finances

Post by brexit » Sun Oct 04, 2020 10:45 am

So what is the figure for wages?


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Re: BFC Finances

Post by Rileybobs » Sun Oct 04, 2020 10:54 am

£290m in the bank :lol:

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Re: BFC Finances

Post by ClaretAndJew » Sun Oct 04, 2020 10:55 am

It kind of goes to show how far off Kilby was when he thought 100 million would set us up for ten years.

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Re: BFC Finances

Post by ewanrob » Sun Oct 04, 2020 10:58 am

Rileybobs wrote:
Sun Oct 04, 2020 10:54 am
£290m in the bank :lol:
🤣 that's not even fag packet calcs

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Re: BFC Finances

Post by bfcjg » Sun Oct 04, 2020 10:59 am

Shareholders dividends 🤣

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Re: BFC Finances

Post by ksrclaret » Sun Oct 04, 2020 11:01 am

£290 million in the bank? Christ, I think you're out by a factor of 100.

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Re: BFC Finances

Post by Sheedyclaret » Sun Oct 04, 2020 11:12 am

Probably more like £2.90 in the bank😂

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Re: BFC Finances

Post by Zlatan » Sun Oct 04, 2020 11:18 am

This thread highlights the complete misunderstanding that most supporters have in regards to football clubs and financing them. It’s no wonder so many fans are are angry when they base their understanding of how much money there is (in fact isn’t in our case) to spend during a transfer window on Facebook maths and Twitter quotes which are massively wrong.

Enjoy the ride, whilst your on it
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Re: BFC Finances

Post by LoveCurryPies » Sun Oct 04, 2020 11:21 am

I’m tired of all the negative threads. The club is financially sound and Covid has thrown a huge unknown element into future finances.

We are in our 5th season in the PL and finishing mid table. That’s a huge achievement from the Owners, Directors, Manager and players. Huge!

But some of you think outside investors would take us even higher. Really? We are never going to be a top 4 club because we don’t have a huge City fan base?

I suspect the board thought we would have sold one of our key players by now and that would have given Sean funds for 2 or 3 players. If an offer of £35million comes in today for Tarks, I would take it. But I don’t know if we could sign anyone so late in the day.

We’ve got off to a poor start, not for the first time. But the number of threads calling for Sean to move on or Garlick to go are very sad. I think we fans need to have more faith and toughen up, and get behind the Club and team.

Be realistic. Enjoy the season, we will improve!
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Re: BFC Finances

Post by brexit » Sun Oct 04, 2020 11:36 am

Zlatan wrote:
Sun Oct 04, 2020 11:18 am
This thread highlights the complete misunderstanding that most supporters have in regards to football clubs and financing them. It’s no wonder so many fans are are angry when they base their understanding of how much money there is (in fact isn’t in our case) to spend during a transfer window on Facebook maths and Twitter quotes which are massively wrong.

Enjoy the ride, whilst your on it
Thanks Zlatan. This is the main reason I started the thread.

I was one of those that misunderstood but now I understand the issues.
Tbh makes me more supportive of MG's approach.
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Re: BFC Finances

Post by brexit » Sun Oct 04, 2020 11:38 am

Thanks god that really puts things in perspective.

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Re: BFC Finances

Post by FactualFrank » Sun Oct 04, 2020 11:39 am

£87 million a year x 5. £435 million on wages.

I put some calcs to Royboy and he said it was pretty much spot on - it basically leaves us with £5 million profit per season.

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Re: BFC Finances

Post by Rumpelstiltskin » Sun Oct 04, 2020 11:40 am

ClaretAndJew wrote:
Sun Oct 04, 2020 10:55 am
It kind of goes to show how far off Kilby was when he thought 100 million would set us up for ten years.
I wish he was still our Chairman though !

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Re: BFC Finances

Post by Sheedyclaret » Sun Oct 04, 2020 11:49 am

I would imagine the wage bill may be over 87 this yr with the top 10 finish and bonuses i may be wrong..

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Re: BFC Finances

Post by Leisure » Sun Oct 04, 2020 11:52 am

Rumpelstiltskin wrote:
Sun Oct 04, 2020 11:40 am
I wish he was still our Chairman though !
Whilst I know that Barry was a great Chairman, I'm not sure what you think would be any different if he was the Chairman now?

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Re: BFC Finances

Post by FactualFrank » Sun Oct 04, 2020 11:54 am

Sheedyclaret wrote:
Sun Oct 04, 2020 11:49 am
I would imagine the wage bill may be over 87 this yr with the top 10 finish and bonuses i may be wrong..
Royboy knows more than me on this one, but would assume that would come under bonuses and not wages.

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Re: BFC Finances

Post by redcloud203 » Sun Oct 04, 2020 11:58 am

Being a Finance Director I have seen the significant cash flow implications of the Covid outbreak first hand and this will undoubtedly have had a huge impact on the clubs financial position also . I think I read on here - I stand to be corrected - that the club did not take part in the Government's furlough scheme at all which is commendable from a social viewpoint but will have not aided the revenue bottom line . I suspect as mentioned by others we have very limited financial resources without a significant input from the current shareholders / loans from the bank or new owners . Time for us all to be patient with the club about further incoming of players and fully be behind the manager /current players and the club in this difficult period .
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Re: BFC Finances

Post by summitclaret » Sun Oct 04, 2020 12:09 pm

LoveCurryPies wrote:
Sun Oct 04, 2020 11:21 am
I’m tired of all the negative threads. The club is financially sound and Covid has thrown a huge unknown element into future finances.

We are in our 5th season in the PL and finishing mid table. That’s a huge achievement from the Owners, Directors, Manager and players. Huge!

But some of you think outside investors would take us even higher. Really? We are never going to be a top 4 club because we don’t have a huge City fan base?

I suspect the board thought we would have sold one of our key players by now and that would have given Sean funds for 2 or 3 players. If an offer of £35million comes in today for Tarks, I would take it. But I don’t know if we could sign anyone so late in the day.

We’ve got off to a poor start, not for the first time. But the number of threads calling for Sean to move on or Garlick to go are very sad. I think we fans need to have more faith and toughen up, and get behind the Club and team.

Be realistic. Enjoy the season, we will improve!
Agree, but we have to find a way to get a better 3rd choice cb than Kev and an attacking threat from the rhs. Teams are just ganging up on Dwight and Charlie and we can't create. That involves risk. If we don't sort it we will be in a relegation fight for sure.

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Re: BFC Finances

Post by FactualFrank » Sun Oct 04, 2020 12:13 pm

redcloud203 wrote:
Sun Oct 04, 2020 11:58 am
Being a Finance Director I have seen the significant cash flow implications of the Covid outbreak first hand and this will undoubtedly have had a huge impact on the clubs financial position also . I think I read on here - I stand to be corrected - that the club did not take part in the Government's furlough scheme at all which is commendable from a social viewpoint but will have not aided the revenue bottom line . I suspect as mentioned by others we have very limited financial resources without a significant input from the current shareholders / loans from the bank or new owners . Time for us all to be patient with the club about further incoming of players and fully be behind the manager /current players and the club in this difficult period .
That's my thinking too. It doesn't help the chairman when the manager is coming out and signalling he's a tight twohat. Which suggests SD doesn't know the full facts and the reasons why we're not spending. Sure, it could be that Garlick is a tight tit, but he could have genuine, justifiable reasons.

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Re: BFC Finances

Post by Paul Waine » Sun Oct 04, 2020 12:15 pm

FactualFrank wrote:
Sun Oct 04, 2020 11:54 am
Royboy knows more than me on this one, but would assume that would come under bonuses and not wages.
Hi Frank, whether we call it wages or bonuses in addition to weekly wages, it is all part of cost of employing staff - as, for that matter is the HMRC 13.8% employer's national insurance charge. The line in the accounts will say "Staff Costs."

Does anyone who is earning £10,000 per week and more actually get paid weekly?

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Re: BFC Finances

Post by FactualFrank » Sun Oct 04, 2020 12:18 pm

Paul Waine wrote:
Sun Oct 04, 2020 12:15 pm
Hi Frank, whether we call it wages or bonuses in addition to weekly wages, it is all part of cost of employing staff - as, for that matter is the HMRC 13.8% employer's national insurance charge. The line in the accounts will say "Staff Costs."

Does anyone who is earning £10,000 per week and more actually get paid weekly?
Afternoon Paul, hope you've recovered from yesterday - might take me until Wednesday!

Not sure on finances, it's something I pass over to a friend who sorts it for me, once a year. I earn from one source every 4 weeks, so 13 times a year, but like you say, don't think many people get paid weekly.

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Re: BFC Finances

Post by GodIsADeeJay81 » Sun Oct 04, 2020 12:23 pm

Paul Waine wrote:
Sun Oct 04, 2020 12:15 pm
Hi Frank, whether we call it wages or bonuses in addition to weekly wages, it is all part of cost of employing staff - as, for that matter is the HMRC 13.8% employer's national insurance charge. The line in the accounts will say "Staff Costs."

Does anyone who is earning £10,000 per week and more actually get paid weekly?
I read something years ago that suggested footballers get paid quarterly, but that may not apply to all clubs/players.

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Re: BFC Finances

Post by Rumpelstiltskin » Sun Oct 04, 2020 12:23 pm

Leisure wrote:
Sun Oct 04, 2020 11:52 am
Whilst I know that Barry was a great Chairman, I'm not sure what you think would be any different if he was the Chairman now?
Firstly Barry was a football man unlike many Chairmen.I am extremely confident that our manager’s budget would have been a shade bigger than the current one.
Secondly I wouldn’t worry that any sale of the club MIGHT not be most beneficial for the shareholders.

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Re: BFC Finances

Post by kentonclaret » Sun Oct 04, 2020 12:25 pm

Given a paltry profit of just £5m (in PL terms) per season then surely this means that our position as a PL club will not be sustainable for much longer without significant outside investment. Nobody knows how much longer the effect of Covid restrictions will last and even major player sales will only be a short term fix.

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Re: BFC Finances

Post by Rileybobs » Sun Oct 04, 2020 12:25 pm

redcloud203 wrote:
Sun Oct 04, 2020 11:58 am
Being a Finance Director I have seen the significant cash flow implications of the Covid outbreak first hand and this will undoubtedly have had a huge impact on the clubs financial position also . I think I read on here - I stand to be corrected - that the club did not take part in the Government's furlough scheme at all which is commendable from a social viewpoint but will have not aided the revenue bottom line . I suspect as mentioned by others we have very limited financial resources without a significant input from the current shareholders / loans from the bank or new owners . Time for us all to be patient with the club about further incoming of players and fully be behind the manager /current players and the club in this difficult period .
I hate it when people who actually know what they’re talking about post on here. #garlickstinks

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Re: BFC Finances

Post by Newcastleclaret93 » Sun Oct 04, 2020 12:28 pm

I’m sure I read an article or saw Swiss ramble post that after five season Burnley have made a gross profit of 16 million.

Take into consideration we have lost close to £50 million due to Corona we are probably in the minus figures now.

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Re: BFC Finances

Post by Paul Waine » Sun Oct 04, 2020 12:35 pm

brexit wrote:
Sun Oct 04, 2020 10:39 am
This has probably been covered elsewhere but I can't find the post.

Can anybody give me a real simple summary of the club finances at present?

This is what I have been told.

Over the past 5 years

£600m income
£220m wages
£40m net transfer loss
£15m barnfield
£15m running costs
£10m other expenses (shareholder dividend? corner stands?)

To me that leaves about £290m in the bank but I can't believe that.
Hi brexit, hope you don't mind me saying your post gave me a laugh this morning.

If you are interested in the club's accounts they are available online at Companies House: Burnley Football Club Holdings Limited, company number 08335231. It's free to search Companies House Beta - it's been free to access for several years now (I'm not sure why they still call it "beta" after all this time).

Of course, there's a delay in the accounts being published. The latest set of accounts available were for the financial year 1-July-2018 to 30-Jun-2019 and were published on Companies House on 6 April 2020.

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Re: BFC Finances

Post by Wellsy1882 » Sun Oct 04, 2020 12:36 pm

We wont finish in the bottom 3

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Re: BFC Finances

Post by FactualFrank » Sun Oct 04, 2020 12:37 pm

Wellsy1882 wrote:
Sun Oct 04, 2020 12:36 pm
We wont finish in the bottom 3
That's us fu**ed then.

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Re: BFC Finances

Post by GodIsADeeJay81 » Sun Oct 04, 2020 12:38 pm

Rumpelstiltskin wrote:
Sun Oct 04, 2020 12:23 pm
Firstly Barry was a football man unlike many Chairmen.I am extremely confident that our manager’s budget would have been a shade bigger than the current one.
Secondly I wouldn’t worry that any sale of the club MIGHT not be most beneficial for the shareholders.
What's the current budget for Dyche and what do you think it would be under Kilby if he was still running the club?

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Re: BFC Finances

Post by Paul Waine » Sun Oct 04, 2020 12:39 pm

GodIsADeeJay81 wrote:
Sun Oct 04, 2020 12:23 pm
I read something years ago that suggested footballers get paid quarterly, but that may not apply to all clubs/players.
That would surprise me with respect to the "weekly wage" part of pay. I'd expect most clubs would pay the "fixed" amount monthly. I'd expect that players performance bonuses, whatever these are, may well be paid quarterly and the team bonuses for league position/cup successes etc are paid at the end of the season.
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Re: BFC Finances

Post by Swizzlestick » Sun Oct 04, 2020 12:39 pm

Paul Waine wrote:
Sun Oct 04, 2020 12:35 pm
Hi brexit, hope you don't mind me saying your post gave me a laugh this morning.

If you are interested in the club's accounts they are available online at Companies House: Burnley Football Club Holdings Limited, company number 08335231. It's free to search Companies House Beta - it's been free to access for several years now (I'm not sure why they still call it "beta" after all this time).

Of course, there's a delay in the accounts being published. The latest set of accounts available were for the financial year 1-July-2018 to 30-Jun-2019 and were published on Companies House on 6 April 2020.
It was finally updated to Companies House Service last year, I think.

Really useful resource - I don’t think many people realise it’s now free. Think it used to be £3 a time.
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Re: BFC Finances

Post by GodIsADeeJay81 » Sun Oct 04, 2020 12:42 pm

Paul Waine wrote:
Sun Oct 04, 2020 12:39 pm
That would surprise me with respect to the "weekly wage" part of pay. I'd expect most clubs would pay the "fixed" amount monthly. I'd expect that players performance bonuses, whatever these are, may well be paid quarterly and the team bonuses for league position/cup successes etc are paid at the end of the season.
Fans can digest a weekly wage quote easier than larger figures I find.

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Re: BFC Finances

Post by Rumpelstiltskin » Sun Oct 04, 2020 12:46 pm

GodIsADeeJay81 wrote:
Sun Oct 04, 2020 12:38 pm
What's the current budget for Dyche and what do you think it would be under Kilby if he was still running the club?
If you have heard any of our manager’s interviews you will have heard him state that he’s never had a budget!
I am confident it would be a little bit more than that...

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Re: BFC Finances

Post by GodIsADeeJay81 » Sun Oct 04, 2020 12:48 pm

Rumpelstiltskin wrote:
Sun Oct 04, 2020 12:46 pm
If you have heard any of our manager’s interviews you will have heard him state that he’s never had a budget!
I am confident it would be a little bit more than that...
So you're just waffling away then without really having any idea what you're on about or why you think we'd be better off with Kilby...

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Re: BFC Finances

Post by jollyjack » Sun Oct 04, 2020 12:51 pm

The old Burnsley again. I know this is about the Tykes. I get Look Northeast and Cumbria up here and on Friday the sports presenter actually said "The Magpies are looking for a convincing performance against Burnsley on Saturday evening"

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Re: BFC Finances

Post by GodIsADeeJay81 » Sun Oct 04, 2020 12:54 pm

jollyjack wrote:
Sun Oct 04, 2020 12:51 pm
The old Burnsley again. I get Look Northeast and Cumbria up here and on Friday the sports presenter actually said "The Magpies are looking for a convincing performance against Burnsley on Saturday evening"
Try Bunrley...
Screenshot_20201003_212557_uk.co.bbc.android.sportdomestic.jpg
Screenshot_20201003_212557_uk.co.bbc.android.sportdomestic.jpg (253.98 KiB) Viewed 4429 times

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Re: BFC Finances

Post by Rumpelstiltskin » Sun Oct 04, 2020 1:58 pm

GodIsADeeJay81 wrote:
Sun Oct 04, 2020 12:48 pm
So you're just waffling away then without really having any idea what you're on about or why you think we'd be better off with Kilby...
Very well done...Have a pleasant day !

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Re: BFC Finances

Post by FactualFrank » Sun Oct 04, 2020 2:00 pm

GodIsADeeJay81 wrote:
Sun Oct 04, 2020 12:54 pm
Try Bunrley...

Screenshot_20201003_212557_uk.co.bbc.android.sportdomestic.jpg
Are you trying to tell me that newspaper reporters are expected to be able to spell? Slightly unfair.

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Re: BFC Finances

Post by CrosspoolClarets » Sun Oct 04, 2020 2:39 pm

Just revisited my notes on the 2018/19 accounts released earlier this year (intriguingly, the links on the club's website are now dead links, but Companies House still have the accounts on there).

The club had £41m in the bank and net assets of over double that (players tend to get undervalued in accounts because it is prudent not to assume a big future transfer fee). EBITDA, normally a good indication of how much is left to spend on players (or rainy day funds) had not dissimilar amounts like the analysis in the above Twitter threads pointed out above show.

The pandemic in 2019/20 has certainly affected things a bit, that much is clear.

But it also seems very clear to me that whilst the club doesn't have £100m to splash out in the way teams like Villa have done, similarly there is scope for some degree of spending, let me say £10m-£20m to just throw a figure out there. The risks to cash flow from the pandemic, while clear, are offset by obviously saleable assets who can go in a crisis - Tarky, Pope, Dwight, Wood etc. We could easily get £100m+ for those guys, three guaranteed to perform at PL level and one hugely promising. You'd have to be pessimist "par excellence" to think these can't offset pandemic losses.

So when I read things like "Burnley are still arguing amongst themselves" from Nixon about Wilson (see other thread), it doesn't make sense to me, especially if cash is spent on a young asset and so shouldn't affect the club value much. The club needs to get its act together in the next 24 hours and get Wilson in (if Dyche wants him) and CB cover at a far better level than Long.

p.s. Dyche doesn't escape criticism here - the Swiss Ramble tweet pointed out above talks through the Europa League money we would have won - millions for qualifying for the group stages, extra dosh per win in the group stages. Given this potential, to put Tarky on the bench and Mee in the stand in Athens (with such weak cover in Long, assuming Gibson was thought to be quality) makes no sense, that extra cash could have funded the backup we so clearly need. Managers should never pass up the chance to win those kind of games, and pass it up he did.
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Re: BFC Finances

Post by Chester Perry » Sun Oct 04, 2020 3:11 pm

CrosspoolClarets wrote:
Sun Oct 04, 2020 2:39 pm

p.s. Dyche doesn't escape criticism here - the Swiss Ramble tweet pointed out above talks through the Europa League money we would have won - millions for qualifying for the group stages, extra dosh per win in the group stages. Given this potential, to put Tarky on the bench and Mee in the stand in Athens (with such weak cover in Long, assuming Gibson was thought to be quality) makes no sense, that extra cash could have funded the backup we so clearly need. Managers should never pass up the chance to win those kind of games, and pass it up he did.
The monies for the group stage are not huge, and neither would have been our gate receipts - the cost of getting to the group stage would have eaten a fair chunk of them - this off the top of my head about the group stages

- all wooden seats in the ground would have had to be replaced - UEFA requirement
- capacity in the ground would have been reduced to meet UEFA requirements on perimeter advertising
- no doubt we would have some major travel costs
- players would have accrued additional bonuses for their part in the games

on the up side we would have received additional commercial income from sponsors

and yes I was disappointed with that Athens side (more so with the officials) and thought we were desperately unlucky at the Turf

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Re: BFC Finances

Post by levraiclaret » Sun Oct 04, 2020 3:23 pm

Paul Waine wrote:
Sun Oct 04, 2020 12:15 pm
Does anyone who is earning £10,000 per week and more actually get paid weekly?
Can you imagine making up the wages packet, like we did in the 60's and 70's?

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Re: BFC Finances

Post by Clarets4me » Sun Oct 04, 2020 4:43 pm

brexit wrote:
Sun Oct 04, 2020 10:39 am
This has probably been covered elsewhere but I can't find the post. Can anybody give me a real simple summary of the club finances at present?
This is what I have been told. Over the past 5 years ....

£600m income
£220m wages
£40m net transfer loss
£15m barnfield
£15m running costs
£10m other expenses (shareholder dividend? corner stands?)

To me that leaves about £290m in the bank but I can't believe that.
Others have corrected these figures better than I can, but what I do know is that none of our Directors have taken a dividend/salary out of the Club for many years. Directors have made loans to the Club in the past at better rates than those available from the Banks, but the last of these together with another loan were repaid during the 2014-15 season ...

To give a little perspective, Tottenham's directors were paid a total of £10.3 million in the financial year ending June '19. They still owe in excess of £660m for the new stadium, £525m of which is being repaid in the form of interest bearing Bonds, that mature at various dates between 15 and 30 years time. They've also had to borrow £175m from the Bank of England to support their cash-flow over the next 12 months ...

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Re: BFC Finances

Post by Vegas Claret » Sun Oct 04, 2020 4:52 pm

LoveCurryPies wrote:
Sun Oct 04, 2020 11:21 am


But some of you think outside investors would take us even higher. Really? We are never going to be a top 4 club because we don’t have a huge City fan base?
I've not seen a single person suggest an investor would take us even higher, I've seen plenty of people hoping that it would give the manager an opportunity to keep us in the division without having both his arms tied behind his back though - there's a huge difference to what you are implying I feel
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Re: BFC Finances

Post by Chester Perry » Sun Oct 04, 2020 5:00 pm

Clarets4me wrote:
Sun Oct 04, 2020 4:43 pm
Directors have made loans to the Club in the past at better rates than those available from the Banks, but the last of these together with another loan were repaid during the 2014-15 season ...
It is very questionable that loans were made at better rates than the banks would offer a club - even today where rates have been at huge lows for a decade or more clubs are being charged between 9% and 15% p.a. (occasionally more) depending on their risk assessment of the business and banks usually will not offer money to clubs, or even private equity that is then loaned to clubs (one of the big players in this area recently folded due to a combination of loans not being repaid to them on time and banks refusing to loan them new monies. It is telling that clubs like Southampton and Everton have had to go to Private Equity recently for loans as no bank saw them as credit worthy, even with their wealthy backers and Premier League TV income.

The Spurs loan from the Bank of England is interesting, but has to be repaid within 12 months I understand - they were able to secure it because their balance sheet/profit and loss accounts were so strong. It is telling that they are the only club to go down this route, the few others that may qualify (and it is a very few) have sought more flexible repayment terms at a higher cost.

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Re: BFC Finances

Post by ecc » Sun Oct 04, 2020 5:12 pm

In a nutshell, are we saying that to buy players we would have to sell (without going into the red)?

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