Some interesting thoughts and a very well put-together piece. Controversial opinions perhaps, but they’re your words and if people are willing to put time aside to compile their arguments for an article, then this has to be for the benefit of an already excellent site. The more contributors, the better!

edlass wrote: ↑

Wed Oct 07, 2020 5:54 pm

I was avoiding that thread! But I've just been and read some of Chester posts on there and the more I do the more I feel like we are doing the right thing, although it's hard to accept.

Imagine being the Chairman knowing the risks either way, seeing what we all see with the squad and feeling the way we all do about Dyche - awful position to be in

Chester Perry wrote: ↑

Wed Oct 07, 2020 4:44 pm

Not an article, or even always well written, but an attempt at that objective can be found in my posts in the transfer thread over the last 2 days (starting on page 102)

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=48686&start=5050

Not knocking you in away way and under normal circumstances it would be hard to disagree with such a well thought out summary. In this case though, and you're going to have to take my word for it because I wouldn't break a confidence, the sole reason we didn't sign anyone was because the takeover negotiations we're too far gone. I don't have a clue where we are with it now though

fatboy47 wrote: ↑

Wed Oct 07, 2020 6:19 pm

There's not much in there we didn't know already, and it's a wee bit "sixth form" in presentation. We've certainly not unearthed an answer to Norman Mailer here, but new views and names should always be welcome and developed.
Looking forward to more.

Let's see yours then Fatboy

Rumbletonk wrote: ↑

Wed Oct 07, 2020 6:27 pm

Not knocking you in away way and under normal circumstances it would be hard to disagree with such a well thought out summary. In this case though, and you're going to have to take my word for it because I wouldn't break a confidence, the sole reason we didn't sign anyone was because the takeover negotiations we're too far gone. I don't have a clue where we are with it now though

When you say too far gone, do you mean its happening and a condition (presumably from MG) was that no more money would be spent with him the main shareholder. Or do you mean too far gone it is off?

Well written first post. For me it was very honest, and obviously written by someone who is passionate about the club and hurting a little. I could relate to it

summitclaret wrote: ↑

Wed Oct 07, 2020 6:57 pm

When you say too far gone, do you mean its happening and a condition (presumably from MG) was that no more money would be spent with him the main shareholder. Or do you mean too far gone it is off?

All I know is it was supposed to be done last Friday and that was why nothing happened in terms of transfers. It didn't for some reason but I don't know where they are with it now, sorry.

Maybe if we had some points it might have happened then. Imo the failure to replace Gibson is THE reason we have no points. Could have cost MG tens of millions. That's what I meant the other day by taking a small risk. Dawson for £4m is not a big risk, when there are several ooc next June that we will let go.

I'd suggest it almost certainly didn't happen because Americans might traditionally not know much about "soccer", but if they took in our opening matches, they wouldn't have to know much to realise we weren't worth it!

Thank you - to the vast majority of you - for your comments. Any constructive criticism is more than welcome as it will only better the way I write my articles in the future; I won’t improve otherwise!

I hope you all look forward to the articles I will be producing in the future (with slightly less narcissistic comments as a result!)

UTC

Another fan without a scooby about our actual finances.

Carelessness running down JH contract? Carelessness would be keep going back offering more and more until he signed. Not sticking an improved offer down and and saying take it or leave it.

He might have lost a few higher owners this summer. But people forget, they signed when Covid hadn’t started. We’re on a different level now financially to before it began. We’re basically in year 1 again and even if we manage to stay up, the rewards won’t be what they once were.

I really do fear where all this constant bickering across most threads is going. It is now at the extent where Clarets Mad go to and forced the split, which i for one dont want to see happen. It feels like everyone wants to pick a fight at the minute, when we are all of one clan. Some have openly expressed the need for togetherness because of the current climate and the way it can effect people but the same constant bickering continues. I get its all about opinions but do we really need to go down to a personal level of what someone writes, which in my opinion was balanced, some I agree with some I am not to sure about, but fair play its an article. Come on guys lets not drop back to the levels Clarets Mad got to.

bobinho wrote: ↑

Wed Oct 07, 2020 4:14 pm

Get over yourself. I have read your explanation, and I accept you didn’t WRITE it, but it’s you not reading my explanation that’s causing the to-ing and fro-ing. I accept you didn’t write it, I have stated that. What I am questioning is after you read the draft, why you decided to publish it. I’ve hit a nerve with questioning your judgement, hence your repeated protestations. I have read the post that states you didn’t write it. I accepted that, but by all means continue to ignore that. Be insulted all you want, you’ve published an article ripping the club a new one and you wanted it out there, but you want to distance yourself from it. Others can buy into your “it wasn’t me” stance - I don’t. It’s on your site, You control what’s published on it. It’s my opinion you have made a mistake in publishing it as an article, as in my opinion it’s the last thing we need right now. It’s a published article, and as such carries more weight than an opinion stated in a thread. If you can’t accept my opinion, fair enough.

I said “we don’t need it right now” meaning the club, not me personally. Am I expected to believe you don’t get that?

The article is riddled with questionable points that have been challenged by Captain Kirk, all valid in challenging the content of the article, but you let it ride.

Whilst I have no desire to insult you, if you want to be insulted, by all means allow yourself to be - but it is not intended to be.

Hi Bobinho, thanks for your wonderfully kind comments.

As Tony has stated, this is a ‘forum’ - where fans can come on and share their views, be it positive or negative. I think we can all agree that the club is in a very precarious position at the moment, there is nothing controversial about that at all. As a 20 year old Uni student who is trying to get into the reporting industry, I find it quite frustrating that you have dismissed my article on our clubs negativity in the transfer market so easily.

In my opinion, alongside many others on here who evidently agree with me (as seen in their generous comments), I believe I have put a concise point across as to how our board have showed an ineptness this summer. Not over the last 5 years; they have been incredible in ensuring the long term safety over the past few years but this year has been a summer of frustration for us all, no shying away from that fact.

To then go and slander it as much as possible, before starting a tirade against CT for simply allowing me to post on the site (which he did out of generosity as a way to try and kickstart my portfolio - I have never met the man in my life) is quite offensive to what I believed was a good effort at a first piece of work - the way you worded it seemed as though you hated every single minute of it

I don’t know where you have got this idea of CT being a propaganda maestro from; again, it is a forum and I am allowed to voice my opinion, as you have yours. If you want to constructively criticise me then that is absolutely fine; many other posters have done the same and I have taken it on board. However if you have nothing nice to say at all, then please don’t do so as it causes unnecessary argument.

Again, I will be writing in the future, and I hope I can impress you with my next article.

Will

lanky22222 wrote: ↑

Wed Oct 07, 2020 7:54 pm

Hi Bobinho, thanks for your wonderfully kind comments.

As Tony has stated, this is a ‘forum’ - where fans can come on and share their views, be it positive or negative. I think we can all agree that the club is in a very precarious position at the moment, there is nothing controversial about that at all. As a 20 year old Uni student who is trying to get into the reporting industry, I find it quite frustrating that you have dismissed my article on our clubs negativity in the transfer market so easily.

In my opinion, alongside many others on here who evidently agree with me (as seen in their generous comments), I believe I have put a concise point across as to how our board have showed an ineptness this summer. Not over the last 5 years; they have been incredible in ensuring the long term safety over the past few years but this year has been a summer of frustration for us all, no shying away from that fact.

To then go and slander it as much as possible, before starting a tirade against CT for simply allowing me to post on the site (which he did out of generosity as a way to try and kickstart my portfolio - I have never met the man in my life) is quite offensive to what I believed was a good effort at a first piece of work - the way you worded it seemed as though you hated every single minute of it

I don’t know where you have got this idea of CT being a propaganda maestro from; again, it is a forum and I am allowed to voice my opinion, as you have yours. If you want to constructively criticise me then that is absolutely fine; many other posters have done the same and I have taken it on board. However if you have nothing nice to say at all, then please don’t do so as it causes unnecessary argument.

Again, I will be writing in the future, and I hope I can impress you with my next article.

Will

Will, this is the perfect example of the issues on this site. You’ve posted a calm and considered response to posts that could quite easily have prompted a very different type of response.

If everyone was able to debate without aggressively toned replies, it would lead to some far better debate, which your article is prompting (from some).

I look forward to the next one

lanky22222 wrote: ↑

Wed Oct 07, 2020 7:54 pm

Hi Bobinho, thanks for your wonderfully kind comments.

As Tony has stated, this is a ‘forum’ - where fans can come on and share their views, be it positive or negative. I think we can all agree that the club is in a very precarious position at the moment, there is nothing controversial about that at all. As a 20 year old Uni student who is trying to get into the reporting industry, I find it quite frustrating that you have dismissed my article on our clubs negativity in the transfer market so easily.

In my opinion, alongside many others on here who evidently agree with me (as seen in their generous comments), I believe I have put a concise point across as to how our board have showed an ineptness this summer. Not over the last 5 years; they have been incredible in ensuring the long term safety over the past few years but this year has been a summer of frustration for us all, no shying away from that fact.

To then go and slander it as much as possible, before starting a tirade against CT for simply allowing me to post on the site (which he did out of generosity as a way to try and kickstart my portfolio - I have never met the man in my life) is quite offensive to what I believed was a good effort at a first piece of work - the way you worded it seemed as though you hated every single minute of it

I don’t know where you have got this idea of CT being a propaganda maestro from; again, it is a forum and I am allowed to voice my opinion, as you have yours. If you want to constructively criticise me then that is absolutely fine; many other posters have done the same and I have taken it on board. However if you have nothing nice to say at all, then please don’t do so as it causes unnecessary argument.

Again, I will be writing in the future, and I hope I can impress you with my next article.

Will

Hi Lanky2222

You shouldn't reply or feel you need to reply to an article written from your perspective. Someone will always see fault with and some will find solace in it, but it is your opinion written very well. Leave people to their own opinions. However you would expect people be adult about their opinions and although they may not agree, it does not warrant a full on assault. Agreed or disagreed, the way it was written was very good, keep up the good work and look forward to seeing more from you.

Youll find Will a certain element of Burnley fans who simply will not have a word said against the club.Those for whom Burnley Directors in particular are a breed above criticism. Incredibly such folk were around when the club was literally at deaths door in the 80s and they are certainly a vociferous bunch in todays challenging but very different times.

lanky22222 wrote: ↑

Wed Oct 07, 2020 12:54 pm

Hi CK,

In the article, I have clarified that I don't have a problem with the club for not having the same amounts of money to spend as other clubs. The issue for me is more the fact that we have our cash reserves tucked away having made profit for the last 5 seasons and haven't used it to strengthen.

For example, I totally understand pulling the plug if Liverpool wanted 15m+, that isn't the problem. What the problem is for me is that a) we could've kept Jeff on for three more years at approx. 35k a week, which would've cost the club £5.5m for the three years of service he could then provide. This would've been the best option as the club is keeping a player who knows Dyche's system inside out for quite a small sum in the long run. Or b) astutely found a loan deal to suit us in terms of right-midfielders even if it is just to get bodies involved (eg when we signed Nkoudou from Spurs in 17/18). It is business decisions like that which I feel will negatively impact our season.

Keep the faith, NNN

I stopped reading your article at the point where you implied that the club had "run-down" Hendrick's contract. There is no way at all that Burnley FC could have made JH sign a three year deal on any money at all unless he agreed....and from what has been published elsewhere he was not prepared to take what was offered. I do not know what was offered....but perhaps you do?

keith1879 wrote: ↑

Wed Oct 07, 2020 8:22 pm

I stopped reading your article at the point where you implied that the club had "run-down" Hendrick's contract. There is no way at all that Burnley FC could have made JH sign a three year deal on any money at all unless he agreed....and from what has been published elsewhere he was not prepared to take what was offered. I do not know what was offered....but perhaps you do?

How else would you put it? It would not have cost Burnley over 50k a week to secure a long-term contract for JH, a hard-working player who fits into the Dyche system very well. If the club are using COVID-19 as an excuse for the non-renewal, Dyche told them to do so 18 months previously, so they cannot hide behind that.

Surely the cost of the contract, which is spread over 3 years, would be less than signing a new player? ie, Bright Osayi Samuel is rumoured to cost 5m in his transfer fee alone, whereas Jeff hypothetically on 50k/w would cost £7.8m for the entirety of the 3 years. My point is; surely it would’ve been more business savvy to keep him on (and ultimately keep squad reinforcement high) than let him go and sign no one, as it strengthens our squad and ultimately gives us more chance of survival?

lanky22222 wrote: ↑

Wed Oct 07, 2020 7:15 pm

Thank you - to the vast majority of you - for your comments. Any constructive criticism is more than welcome as it will only better the way I write my articles in the future; I won’t improve otherwise!

I hope you all look forward to the articles I will be producing in the future (with slightly less narcissistic comments as a result!)

UTC

Hi Lanky, thanks for writing your article. It's always great when fans take the effort to do this.

If I may offer a little constructive criticism, some facts need checking. The most important "incorrect fact" (my view) is in your opening paragraph. Your state that "with a net spend of just under £10m for the 2019/20 season – posting a profit of £45m before tax the season prior...." The season prior was, of course, 2018/19 - but it was in the 2017/18 season that the profit before tax was £45m. If you take a look at Burnley's accounts for 2018/19 - which were published in early April this year - on the first page, in Mike Garlick's Strategic Report he writes: "Profit fell from £46m to £5m. The single biggest reason for this change is the sale of both Andre Gray and Michael Keane, which boosted our player trading profitability considerably in 2017/18."

I know and understand that most people aren't accountants. I know financial reporting is not easy for most of us. However, when the issue is why isn't the club spending money? it is probably important to start off with the correct information about how much money the club does have.

As has already been posted by a couple of others, there are a lot of posts on here about the clubs financial position. I'm sure one or two who are knowledgeable would be happy to review an article before it is published more widely.

My thanks, again for writing. I look forward to your next article.

UTC

Well done on first article. Old hacks like me and Tony been doing it a long time and you never know how something will go down. A forum like this will always have a variety of responses. Just writing down every behind the scenes question we’d like to ask the club would make an article on itself. Nobody at the club is giving answers but there are some hair curling stories floating about involving boardroom differences plus the chairman manager differences. Was the Wilson deal ever a possibility. Did Tarkowski really have a sore toe. Are there directors who would not be that sorry if Dyche were to leave. Does the club stand to be something like £40 million down on this coming season. Have they already had to repay app £13 million to sky. Is a 31 year old for £1 million truly the best we can do. Will someone at the club come out with some clear information? Can any of them say there is some proper forward planning so that if the club does survive this season it will not implode in 21/22?

I'll be simplistic, someone has taken the time and made the effort to contribute to the literary content of this forum and wishes to continue to do so. Then the vultures attack, not applauding the effort of trying to add to the forum but purely to rip apart the first article submitted. I've been involved in biker forums and it's hard to get people to contribute and those forums have died because of lack of input and negativity. I'm not saying agree with the article but at least appreciate that someone is trying to engender interest in the forum by contributing something more than a critical post to someone else's comment and others jumping on the badwaggon (intentional) to add to it. If you feel so passionate about it submit your own articles.

An interesting article. Well done for taking the time and effort to contribute to this forum. I could not have created an article like this when I was 20, so fair play to you. I respect what you have to say. Keep it going.

Trying to view what this season will look like is nigh on impossible. My opinion is (for what it's worth) is to take it one game at a time. And wait until the 16th October before passing judgement on our transfers.

I think some people are being a little sensitive. I’m not sure anything underhand has been said about the article other than perhaps the insinuation that CT was using it as a vehicle to convey his own feelings. An opinionated piece like that was surely going to divide the readers and generate comments, which is the case.

Well done on the first article, Will. As others have said it’s good to have additional contributors to the board, which is a free resource for us all.

I don’t agree with a lot of the article, which is fine, we’ve got opposing views. But I do echo Paul Waine’s comments that certain claims need backing up with facts, or at the very least some substance.

In addition to the incorrect financial claims I cannot agree that we were careless to let Hendrick’s contract run down. It takes two parties to sign a contract, and if one party doesn’t want to then there’s nothing the other can do.

Secondly, you acknowledge that we don’t have any money, but then criticise the board for their ineptness in spending the non-existent money. I can see that your thoughts are borne out of frustrations, which I also share, but the reality of the situation should be acknowledged.

Anyway, I hope this is taken, as is my intention, as constructive feedback and look forward to your next piece. Hopefully the situation at the club will be a little rosier by then.

lanky22222 wrote: ↑

Wed Oct 07, 2020 8:44 pm

How else would you put it? It would not have cost Burnley over 50k a week to secure a long-term contract for JH, a hard-working player who fits into the Dyche system very well. If the club are using COVID-19 as an excuse for the non-renewal, Dyche told them to do so 18 months previously, so they cannot hide behind that.

Surely the cost of the contract, which is spread over 3 years, would be less than signing a new player? ie, Bright Osayi Samuel is rumoured to cost 5m in his transfer fee alone, whereas Jeff hypothetically on 50k/w would cost £7.8m for the entirety of the 3 years. My point is; surely it would’ve been more business savvy to keep him on (and ultimately keep squad reinforcement high) than let him go and sign no one, as it strengthens our squad and ultimately gives us more chance of survival?

A couple of thoughts on this point.

Would the club really want Jeff Hendrick as our highest paid player or thereabouts? That's going to shift the goalposts in future negotiations with other players, new signings, etc

Comparing to Bright Osayi Samuel, there'd be the hope that if you signed him there would be a potential sale of him later down the line at possibly a significantly higher value. Hendrick wouldn't offer that possibility.

I don't disagree that he was worth keeping, but not at any cost.

again another reason why i rarely use this board these days. A new columnist with his first article and he is subject to some negative abhorrent responses. there is some vile people who use this message board.

lanky22222 wrote: ↑

Wed Oct 07, 2020 8:44 pm

How else would you put it? It would not have cost Burnley over 50k a week to secure a long-term contract for JH, a hard-working player who fits into the Dyche system very well. If the club are using COVID-19 as an excuse for the non-renewal, Dyche told them to do so 18 months previously, so they cannot hide behind that.

Surely the cost of the contract, which is spread over 3 years, would be less than signing a new player? ie, Bright Osayi Samuel is rumoured to cost 5m in his transfer fee alone, whereas Jeff hypothetically on 50k/w would cost £7.8m for the entirety of the 3 years. My point is; surely it would’ve been more business savvy to keep him on (and ultimately keep squad reinforcement high) than let him go and sign no one, as it strengthens our squad and ultimately gives us more chance of survival?

Morning Lanky.

I like the way you have set out some figures to justify your argument, but your first paragraph above is surely based on an assumption rather than on fact. If you reword the second sentence to say "I don't think it would have cost Burnley......... then I could accept it.

You seem to me to be stating something which is disputable. I'm not saying that you are wrong but unless we know what Jeff was asking for, what the club were offering or what his agent was advising (perhaps all of those!!) and maybe even the views of his family then we cannot say with any certainty how much it would have cost to keep him here......or even if we could have done.

Fundamentally Burnley operate a policy of picking up players from the Championship and trying to improve them....this means that we will sometimes be in the position where a player decides that he can maximise his future earnings at a big city club by running his contract down (Danny Ings being the classic example).

Regards

Keith

keith1879 wrote: ↑

Thu Oct 08, 2020 10:37 am

Fundamentally Burnley operate a policy of picking up players from the Championship and trying to improve them....this means that we will sometimes be in the position where a player decides that he can maximise his future earnings at a big city club by running his contract down (Danny Ings being the classic example).

Regards

Keith

Jeff Hendrick being another classic example

But the club were just careless in letting this happen

jojomk1 wrote: ↑

Thu Oct 08, 2020 10:42 am

Jeff Hendrick being another classic example

But the club were just careless in letting this happen

How do you know that Hendrick wasn't offered a bumper signing on fee to join Newcastle as a free agent? The truth is you don't, and nor does anyone else. So you can't claim with any credibility that the club were careless to let Hendrick's contract run down, when it appears that they tried wholeheartedly to prevent that from happening.

Rileybobs wrote: ↑

Thu Oct 08, 2020 10:47 am

How do you know that Hendrick wasn't offered a bumper signing on fee to join Newcastle as a free agent? The truth is you don't, and nor does anyone else. So you can't claim with any credibility that the club were careless to let Hendrick's contract run down, when it appears that they tried wholeheartedly to prevent that from happening.

I think maybe he was being sarcastic.....

But there is a serious point here. Lanky has suggested that we could have tied Jeff to a longer contract by offering him a particular deal (£50k per week I think). My view is that a big city club such as Newcastle will always be in a position to offer higher wages (or perhaps signing-on fee) so we will never be in a position to make players offers that they cannot refuse.

keith1879 wrote: ↑

Thu Oct 08, 2020 10:58 am

I think maybe he was being sarcastic.....

But there is a serious point here. Lanky has suggested that we could have tied Jeff to a longer contract by offering him a particular deal (£50k per week I think). My view is that a big city club such as Newcastle will always be in a position to offer higher wages (or perhaps signing-on fee) so we will never be in a position to make players offers that they cannot refuse.

I see where you are coming from Keith, however IMO if we had made this offer when he had 18 months left on his contract (long before Newcastle would’ve registered him as a potential Bosman rule signing) then he would’ve likely accepted reduced terms as there would’ve been much less interest in his services.

lanky22222 wrote: ↑

Thu Oct 08, 2020 11:18 am

I see where you are coming from Keith, however IMO if we had made this offer when he had 18 months left on his contract (long before Newcastle would’ve registered him as a potential Bosman rule signing) then he would’ve likely accepted reduced terms as there would’ve been much less interest in his services.

I think you have a point. My suspicion is that his agent might have been advising him that a waiting game would be better in the long run. Personally I was sorry to see him go.

DCWat wrote: ↑

Wed Oct 07, 2020 8:10 pm

Will, this is the perfect example of the issues on this site. You’ve posted a calm and considered response to posts that could quite easily have prompted a very different type of response.

If everyone was able to debate without aggressively toned replies, it would lead to some far better debate, which your article is prompting (from some).

I look forward to the next one

Nail on head.

Too many posters get their back up instantly and are quick to abuse, belittle or name call purely due to someone having a differing opinion.

Doesn't create a nice environment at all.

99.9% of visitors to the message board all have a common interest, and that's for Burnley football club to be as successful as possible, for as long as possible, however the opinions on how we achieve this will always be wide and varied.

I thought treating any human with respect would be a given, even more so a fellow fan who shares the same passion as yourself.

pushpinpussy wrote: ↑

Thu Oct 08, 2020 6:53 am

again another reason why i rarely use this board these days. A new columnist with his first article and he is subject to some negative abhorrent responses. there is some vile people who use this message board.

"negative abhorrent responses" - I think you mean constructive criticism don't you? People are allowed to disagree with the article, I thought that was what a forum was about.
If you disregard the slanging match which was carried on by 2 people (I believe, without reading it all back again) then the rest of the responses have been either in favour of the article or have disagreed with it (in my case).
If you could point out anything "abhorrent" I will gladly put my hand up.

keith1879 wrote: ↑

Thu Oct 08, 2020 10:58 am

I think maybe he was being sarcastic.....

Correct

The reason people run down their contract is to get a bumper signing on fee from their new club (a much higher figure than a percentage of any actual transfer fee paid)

JH and his agent set out this exact strategy when they refused the initial contract offers made back in the early months of 2019