But all of Greater Manchester’s MPs are behind him, about a third of the are Tory, so the party political angle doesn’t really stand scrutiny.FactualFrank wrote: ↑Mon Oct 19, 2020 11:13 pmHe looks to be trying to put the economy over people's lives. But he also looks to be trying to attack the government without even considering the lives it can save. The cases going down, if true, is brilliant - but it wasn't known at the time.
I guess what I'm saying is, he looks to be trying to make a point for political reasons, and nothing else.
Three Tier Lockdown
Re: Three Tier Lockdown
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Re: Three Tier Lockdown
This was Burnhams response to the criticism you accuse him ofFactualFrank wrote: ↑Mon Oct 19, 2020 11:13 pmHe looks to be trying to put the economy over people's lives. But he also looks to be trying to attack the government without even considering the lives it can save. The cases going down, if true, is brilliant - but it wasn't known at the time.
I guess what I'm saying is, he looks to be trying to make a point for political reasons, and nothing else.
https://twitter.com/i/status/1317745529376411650
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Re: Three Tier Lockdown
He can have the entire country behind him, it still doesn't change my initial thoughts. And the fact he made sure all the cameras were on him - just makes me doubt him. It's opinions at the end of the day.
Let's see how things pan out. If the numbers are going down, then brilliant.
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Re: Three Tier Lockdown
And he joins in.Devils_Advocate wrote: ↑Mon Oct 19, 2020 11:17 pmThis was Burnhams response to the criticism you accuse him of
https://twitter.com/i/status/1317745529376411650
Re: Three Tier Lockdown
He’s the mayor, who are the cameras supposed to be on? If the support for businesses was the same as it was the last time they were asked to close down there wouldn’t be a problem.FactualFrank wrote: ↑Mon Oct 19, 2020 11:21 pmHe can have the entire country behind him, it still doesn't change my initial thoughts. And the fact he made sure all the cameras were on him - just makes me doubt him. It's opinions at the end of the day.
Let's see how things pan out. If the numbers are going down, then brilliant.
Re: Three Tier Lockdown
Some people's ideas are more complex than others. Specifically, perhaps he believes that dying of coronavirus isn't the only bad thing that can happen and he is trying to offset the various bad things in a balanced way.FactualFrank wrote: ↑Mon Oct 19, 2020 11:07 pmI don't get it with him. Is he doing all this to try and show his muscle, even if means people die, or does he genuinely believe the virus can be contained by doing whatever people want?
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Re: Three Tier Lockdown
Yet Tory members for Hyndburn and Burnley had a Twitter spat with him about who he represents. They seem to support the government yet their neighbouring Tory MPs do not.
Who knows who to believe, SAGE, CMO, ICU Doctors (Shut up and shut down), labour, tory, Susannah Reid and we haven't even taken into account fake news.
Good morning britain reporting calls this morning to prioritise BME groups for testing over others because they are are significantly higher risk. If the elderly are high risk and must be shielded is Boris going to lock down communities with high BME populations to protect them, I just can't see that going down well.
With Brexit and all this, society is being pitted against each other. North against South, BME against non BME, what other differentiators will be exploited to irreparable damage.
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Re: Three Tier Lockdown
Are you really surprised society is being pitted against each other with this lot in charge!?SingaporeClarets wrote: ↑Tue Oct 20, 2020 6:11 amYet Tory members for Hyndburn and Burnley had a Twitter spat with him about who he represents. They seem to support the government yet their neighbouring Tory MPs do not.
Who knows who to believe, SAGE, CMO, ICU Doctors (Shut up and shut down), labour, tory, Susannah Reid and we haven't even taken into account fake news.
Good morning britain reporting calls this morning to prioritise BME groups for testing over others because they are are significantly higher risk. If the elderly are high risk and must be shielded is Boris going to lock down communities with high BME populations to protect them, I just can't see that going down well.
With Brexit and all this, society is being pitted against each other. North against South, BME against non BME, what other differentiators will be exploited to irreparable damage.
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Re: Three Tier Lockdown
Andy Burnham should have just said Greater Manchester is a private company, then the Tories would have happily handed over a blank cheque.
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Re: Three Tier Lockdown
Good luck to the people of Greater Manchester.
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Re: Three Tier Lockdown
Jonathan Van Tam is far better at these briefings than Whitty and Valance - less scare mongering, more clarity. Was very clear today next to the PM about not thinking a lockdown nationally is the right approach but maybe needing a little more pedal to the metal on local measures to get control over this. I couldn't agree more (though I'd like more nuance).
There will always be a debate about how local is local. Someone in a village around Saddleworth is likely seeing very little virus and could ask why their places will be shut in that situation, with no household mixing. Realistically you could keep all their pubs open but just for local people and with limited capacity.
The funding argument seems stupid and will cost lives sadly. Burnham is a clown, the government moved a long way towards his figure and he refused a deal over £5m. On the flip side, the government and scientists could easily have laid out clear criteria for moving through the tiers (e.g. local hospital bed capacity, infection rates, growth, deaths etc), and could easily also have standardised financial support per head of population. That way we get clear messages - your area nears Tier 3, if you all act now to avoid infection, businesses could stay open and people could stay employed (and alive).
There will always be a debate about how local is local. Someone in a village around Saddleworth is likely seeing very little virus and could ask why their places will be shut in that situation, with no household mixing. Realistically you could keep all their pubs open but just for local people and with limited capacity.
The funding argument seems stupid and will cost lives sadly. Burnham is a clown, the government moved a long way towards his figure and he refused a deal over £5m. On the flip side, the government and scientists could easily have laid out clear criteria for moving through the tiers (e.g. local hospital bed capacity, infection rates, growth, deaths etc), and could easily also have standardised financial support per head of population. That way we get clear messages - your area nears Tier 3, if you all act now to avoid infection, businesses could stay open and people could stay employed (and alive).
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Re: Three Tier Lockdown
So, the other day SAGE wanted a lockdown and today they don't?
That's clear then.
That's clear then.
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Re: Three Tier Lockdown
Let's face it, Burnham failed twice to get the power he wanted, and is just a typical scouse opportunist, not a lot different to Hatton.
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Re: Three Tier Lockdown
So they offered £60m, it wasn’t deemed enough so they couldn’t agree and they’ve taken it away?
Surely that’s not what they are saying.
Why wouldn’t they give them that £60m anyway?
Surely that’s not what they are saying.
Why wouldn’t they give them that £60m anyway?
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Re: Three Tier Lockdown
In the days wasted arguing, things have got worse.
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Re: Three Tier Lockdown
Opportunist??Claretincraven wrote: ↑Tue Oct 20, 2020 6:02 pmLet's face it, Burnham failed twice to get the power he wanted, and is just a typical scouse opportunist, not a lot different to Hatton.
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Re: Three Tier Lockdown
You are correct sir.
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Re: Three Tier Lockdown
If trying to get more money for people in trouble makes him an opportunist I suspect he’ll take that.
£5m difference, with the amount of money they’ve spaffed on their mates.
£5m difference, with the amount of money they’ve spaffed on their mates.
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Re: Three Tier Lockdown
If true that's absolutely disgraceful.Bordeauxclaret wrote: ↑Tue Oct 20, 2020 6:07 pmSo they offered £60m, it wasn’t deemed enough so they couldn’t agree and they’ve taken it away?
Surely that’s not what they are saying.
Why wouldn’t they give them that £60m anyway?
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Re: Three Tier Lockdown
Johnson obviously wouldn’t answer the question and journalists reporting it was off the table, the BBC seem to be reporting its back on now.
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Re: Three Tier Lockdown
God forbid the mayor of a major city should try and get a better deal for his people, eh?
Yeah, he's a lowlife opportunist!
Yeah, he's a lowlife opportunist!
Re: Three Tier Lockdown
What is utterly absurd in all of this and which is being lost in the noise is the very notion of a 'deal' itself. You don't strike 'deals' with those whom you govern. We're citizens, we're constituents, we're not clients or trading partners. Burnham, sadly, appears to have succumb to the rhetoric, and that's disappointing because it legitimises the notion that a negotiation party is within its right to walk away. That isn't how government works, or at least isn't how it ought to, according to any sense of decency. Governance isn't commerce. You need to do right by your citizens. Shame on anyone who casts a stone at Burnham for having the nerve to stand up for his constituents. He appears to have support from within the Tory party, which shows that at least some of them are a bit wiser than the partisan hacks on here viewing a region standing up for itself as some sort of conspiracy against dear leader.
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Re: Three Tier Lockdown
Don't see anything wrong with Burnham wanting the best for GM.
Equally I don't see anything wrong with the Government insisting that the financial support for GM must be in proportion with Lancashire and Merseyside.
A shame they couldn't reach an agreement though and hopefully that will be resolved imminently.
I don't think there could be a further delay in implementing tighter restrictions.
Equally I don't see anything wrong with the Government insisting that the financial support for GM must be in proportion with Lancashire and Merseyside.
A shame they couldn't reach an agreement though and hopefully that will be resolved imminently.
I don't think there could be a further delay in implementing tighter restrictions.
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Re: Three Tier Lockdown
During the Brexit negotiations the EU has been accused by Boris Johnson and Michael Gove of wanting to punish the UK for being one of the first members to leave the Bloc to send a warning to the rest of the EU27.
Here we have Boris Johnson dealing harshly with Greater Manchester and Andy Burnham, to send a warning to many other council leaders in other parts of the country not to push Westminster too far when stricter restrictions are imposed in their regions.
It's all political posturing with the losers being local business owners and low-paid workers.
Here we have Boris Johnson dealing harshly with Greater Manchester and Andy Burnham, to send a warning to many other council leaders in other parts of the country not to push Westminster too far when stricter restrictions are imposed in their regions.
It's all political posturing with the losers being local business owners and low-paid workers.
Re: Three Tier Lockdown
Feels a bit like 1381, doesn't it!
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Re: Three Tier Lockdown
Sky reporting the government now want the individual councils of Greater Manchester to bid for a portion of the 60 million. Good old Boris and the boys.
Re: Three Tier Lockdown
Surely it's a good thing the £60m is still on the table and that there's equity in how financial support is allocated across Lancashire, Greater Manchester and Merseyside.Steve-Harpers-perm wrote: ↑Tue Oct 20, 2020 7:48 pmSky reporting the government now want the individual councils of Greater Manchester to bid for a portion of the 60 million. Good old Boris and the boys.
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Re: Three Tier Lockdown
Remember these jokers are supposed to be negotiating our way out of the EU. They can’t even negotiate with their own country.
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Re: Three Tier Lockdown
There's a school of thought that this was the plan all along. It's easier to impose upon a desperate individual council than it is councils bargaining collectively. Good old fashioned divide and rule.Steve-Harpers-perm wrote: ↑Tue Oct 20, 2020 7:48 pmSky reporting the government now want the individual councils of Greater Manchester to bid for a portion of the 60 million. Good old Boris and the boys.
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Re: Three Tier Lockdown
Johnson will be gone in a few months surely ? Cummings is putting him into situations he simply cannot cope with.
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Re: Three Tier Lockdown
It’s pretty embarrassing from the government in what is a national crisis.
Re: Three Tier Lockdown
I think he'll be gone by spring. He looks a broken man. Then we'll have Michael Gove inflicted on us.evensteadiereddie wrote: ↑Tue Oct 20, 2020 8:06 pmJohnson will be gone in a few months surely ? Cummings is putting him into situations he simply cannot cope with.
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Re: Three Tier Lockdown
Robert Jenrick garnered £25 Million for his constituency of Newark (as a town of deprivation - 307 on the national list).Steve-Harpers-perm wrote: ↑Tue Oct 20, 2020 7:48 pmSky reporting the government now want the individual councils of Greater Manchester to bid for a portion of the 60 million. Good old Boris and the boys.
Re: Three Tier Lockdown
Peasants' revolt. Squabbling with Europe, socioeconomic fallout of the plague, dissatisfied serfs feeling ripped off, an entitled boy-king!
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Re: Three Tier Lockdown
The saddest thing of all is the amount of Northerners who voted for these shysters at the last election. You reap what you sow I'm afraid.
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Re: Three Tier Lockdown
At the heart of this is the fate of those who are presently on minimum wage and will only receive two thirds of that amount. Johnson has said a 'very generous' financial package has been offered, but if you have to survive and feed your family on two thirds of the minimum wage it probably doesn't feel very generous.
To my mind, pushing the lowest earners further below the poverty line is just unacceptable and Johnson needs to address their plight directly instead of dealing in vague generalisations. And of course it has to be the same for other regions like Liverpool, so give Manchester a decent level of support and then bring those other regions up to that level. Inflicting severe poverty on the less well off sections of society can never be acceptable.
To my mind, pushing the lowest earners further below the poverty line is just unacceptable and Johnson needs to address their plight directly instead of dealing in vague generalisations. And of course it has to be the same for other regions like Liverpool, so give Manchester a decent level of support and then bring those other regions up to that level. Inflicting severe poverty on the less well off sections of society can never be acceptable.
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Re: Three Tier Lockdown
Haha, sadly not! Though there's a poetry in the way history imitates itself. He was a Durhamite loyalist of the king, and carried out his most famous deed at the expense of the angry peasants.
Re: Three Tier Lockdown
Not included in his wiki bio is that Walworth first apprenticed in the Schoole for Badde and Poore Children, under Michael of Govey. Famed for having the finest tonsure, and therefore a most Godly man, he advocated “big parchment” but was eventually moved to Customs due to writing illicit ballads about other people in the school.
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Re: Three Tier Lockdown
Sorry - that was after he spent time in Novgorod.AndrewJB wrote: ↑Tue Oct 20, 2020 10:28 pmNot included in his wiki bio is that Walworth first apprenticed in the Schoole for Badde and Poore Children, under Michael of Govey. Famed for having the finest tonsure, and therefore a most Godly man, he advocated “big parchment” but was eventually moved to Customs due to writing illicit ballads about other people in the school.
Re: Three Tier Lockdown
Where else on the internet do you get HIGNFY-style historical satirisation of figures crucial to current political events interspersing football chat, plumber recommendations and pictures of squirrels? When it isn't being the absolute worst, this forum is the best.
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Re: Three Tier Lockdown
Let’s not forget the funding rules aren’t the PM or even the government, it will be the Treasury civil servants who are doing it, the same ones who preside during a Labour government.
Governments have the power to intervene and overrule of course, but there are conventions as to when that is appropriate, and the permanent secretary would advise on that.
The whole thing has been a total shitshow of course, but I’m not sure it is clever to go down party political lines in judging them all.
Governments have the power to intervene and overrule of course, but there are conventions as to when that is appropriate, and the permanent secretary would advise on that.
The whole thing has been a total shitshow of course, but I’m not sure it is clever to go down party political lines in judging them all.