Three Tier Lockdown

[Wellsy1882]

1300 hospitals in UK.

Yesterday less that 1 in 2 of them had a covid admission.

10 times that still wouldnt cause panic in hospitals

[FactualFrank]

1300 hospitals in UK.

Yesterday less that 1 in 2 of them had a covid admission.

10 times that still wouldnt cause panic in hospitals

That's fine, if you're ignoring the areas of the country where most cases are.

[FactualFrank]

1300 hospitals in UK.

Yesterday less that 1 in 2 of them had a covid admission.

10 times that still wouldnt cause panic in hospitals

Hospitals in north of England 'to run out of Covid beds within a week'

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/ ... hin-a-week

[Inchy]

Running out of ICU beds isn’t as straight forward as what the media are saying


Last time all elective surgery was stopped. This was directed by NHS England in March. This meant there was capacity for ICU beds to be put in theatres, and there were theatres nurses and ODPs who were able to assist ICU nurses in caring for ICU patients.

ODPs and theatre nurses are not ICU nurses but they share some of the same skills set. In my trust we did a pod system. One icu nurse would oversee 4 ICU patients with the assistance of 3/4 OPDs/theatre nurses.

This upped out ICU capacity massively.


This time however elective surgery hasn’t been stopped. I doubt any trust will want to stop it unless directed by the government because a) stopping elective surgery has a massive impact on people’s health and b) all trusts make a lot of money through delivering surgery.


I worked last night and Monday and Tuesday day. It’s back to where it was in April. Every patient I’m seeing has covid. There are plans to expand the bed base for ICU patients but with ODPs and theatre nurses working in theatre I’m unsure where the staff is going to come from.


On a different note for those that still think it’s just like flu I can assure you it isn’t. The average age of the patients I’m taking into ICU is about 50. Once intubated the chance of survival remains about 50:50.
Although some new treatments exist, Remdesivir being the main one, I’m yet to see how effective that is. Whether someone gets better or not seems to be luck of the draw. Some people are hardly effective whilst others rapidly go down hill.

[FactualFrank]

If the government really are going to go with this 3-tier option, as opposed to a full nationwide lockdown, then places such as Leeds, Liverpool and Manchester will surely be put under full lockdown, like the rules were in March. It looks to me like the only way, as things like closing pubs at 10, isn't making much/any difference at all.

[Inchy]

We know what works, we have done this before.

The only lock down that will work is a full lock down. It worked last time. From 1000 deaths a day to none in 6 weeks.

What hasn’t worked is the easing of lock down.

[fidelcastro]

We know what works, we have done this before.

The only lock down that will work is a full lock down. It worked last time. From 1000 deaths a day to none in 6 weeks.

What hasn’t worked is the easing of lock down.

As you're at the sharp end of it, Inchy, where do you stand on the idea of herd immunity? Do you think it would work, or would the NHS just become swamped?

[Spijed]

At least we have the big Nightingale hospitals in place which should help.

[Inchy]

As you're at the sharp end of it, Inchy, where do you stand on the idea of herd immunity? Do you think it would work, or would the NHS just become swamped?

I have no idea

[Inchy]

At least we have the big Nightingale hospitals in place which should help.

And no one to staff it

[mdd2]

You can have as many beds and ventilators as you want and conjure them up quickly but you cannot get the staff and skills to run with them that easily as Inchy has already explained
This would have been far less a problem had we continued to have behaved once lockdown was eased
Even some hospital staff Have behaved like idiots
I had to admonish three unmasked chatting within a foot of each other only last week
A guy brushed past the hospital entrance and refused to sanitise his hands
Once we get an effective vaccine our only problem will be the tax bill and the anti vaccine brigade

[FactualFrank]

and the anti vaccine brigade

It seems we will need x% of people to have the vaccine and not 100%. Which means the conspiracy theorists can continue and not have it.

[dsr]

We know what works, we have done this before.

The only lock down that will work is a full lock down. It worked last time. From 1000 deaths a day to none in 6 weeks.

What hasn’t worked is the easing of lock down.

Your memory is definitely playing you false there. It went from zero to 1,000 per day in 6 weeks, but coming back down the last 1,000 deaths day was April 23rd and 6 weeks later the peak was still 359 deaths.

There is also a school of thought that says the current rise from 5 or 6 day in August, to 79 a day in October, is not the same as the Spring rise. Therefore it isn't as simple as just working out what happened in Spring and assuming it will be the same.

[SingaporeClarets]

Andy Burnham now saying pubs shouldn't close at all or have early closing times and taxis will be affected.

He hasn't given any idea of how he thinks the government should handle this other than to allow a lack of social distancing on premises full of drunk people in the early hours.

I'm still waiting for Sir Keir to describe what measures a Labour government would introduce to reduce the spread if they don't believe that increased restrictions are the answer. He was complaining about 10pm closing times at the same time the SNP was announcing 6pm closing times in Scotland and has said nothing about that. Maybe Labour have already decided Scotland is not winnable for them anymore and none of their business.

Is there actually a political party out there that has proposed an alternative plan other than bitching from the sidelines ?

[evensteadiereddie]

They don't need to. Much better and much safer to sit back and watch the Tories mess up week after week.

[ksrclaret]

Lockdown most certainly did not work. It was a compete disaster on so many levels and merely delayed the spread of coronavirus. Lockdown only worked if you’re of the view that it should be permanent.

[SingaporeClarets]

What hope do we have.

An incompetent government and an opposition pushing herd immunity as cases shoot up not because they believe in herd immunity but because of political opportunism, even if it means more people die because it's "safer to sit back and take political advantage out of a pandemic".

I've nothing but contempt for anyone who is an MP.

It could be worse, Jeremy Corbyn who cannot even count to 6 could still be the opposition leader.

And still people wonder when given the opportunity to stick 2 fingers up to the establishment why Brexit and Boris as PM happened.

[SingaporeClarets]

Lockdown most certainly did not work. It was a compete disaster on so many levels and merely delayed the spread of coronavirus. Lockdown only worked if you’re of the view that it should be permanent.

So the answer then is what, no restrictions? Herd immunity?

Even Sweden have admitted that was a mistake.

Can be pretty sure the opposition would then be complaining that we should have implemented the strongest of lockdowns and herd immunity is irresponsible. The role of opposition is not to be contrary. Maybe Contrary Mary should be Sir Keir's new nickname.

What has gone wrong is the lack of control in British society. Just before lockdown we were advised to social distance but on the weekend tried to break the Guinness Book of Records for the most number of people on British beaches before it became apparent that the British public cannot be trusted to follow guidance and a full lockdown was required.

We don't deserve the freedoms we have.

Watch this evening in Manchester, despite a massive spike in cases the pubs will be packed with people having one last bender despite it being blindingly obvious that the virus will spread rapidly in this environment and common sense would dictate that staying home would be better even if the tier 3 restrictions have not been put in place.

Lockdown didn't fail, the British people have failed, failed to demonstrate their ability to abide by the law and instead do as they please regardless of the consequences.

I've ensured that whenever my parents are out of their own house they wear masks and when people visit them they wear masks. I have stopped associating with people who break the rules because a message needs to be sent out that their actions are reckless and they should be outcast like drunk drivers.

Everyone knows at least 1 family who came back from Spain in the summer that did not even bother to quarantine.

This crisis has shown how selfish a society we have become in vast contrast to the society during world war 2 that did everything possible for their fellow citizens including housing children from the cities in the countryside with families who could have decided those kids were not their problem.

[Elizabeth]

Waiting with interest for the first details of what 'focused protection' to be given to more vulnerable groups and older people over this period of herd immunity.

Any poster in agreement with this way forward willing to state what they would have these groups do while the rest of society get on with living their lives normally?

If you have any thoughts could you perhaps include your feelings on what you think extreme isolation for the next six months might do for these groups

[Dyched]

Lockdown most certainly did not work. It was a compete disaster on so many levels and merely delayed the spread of coronavirus. Lockdown only worked if you’re of the view that it should be permanent.

Why? Did you expect the virus to just disappear when we were on lockdown?

The lockdown was intended to slow the rate and to stop the NHS being overwhelmed. That worked. When the rare of infection got to a certain point lockdown was lifted in various sectors to begin, slowly reopening society. The stupidest thing the government have been guilty of is trusting the british people and genuinely thinking the had common sense.

[alwaysaclaret]

So the answer then is what, no restrictions? Herd immunity?

Even Sweden have admitted that was a mistake.

Can be pretty sure the opposition would then be complaining that we should have implemented the strongest of lockdowns and herd immunity is irresponsible. The role of opposition is not to be contrary. Maybe Contrary Mary should be Sir Keir's new nickname.

What has gone wrong is the lack of control in British society. Just before lockdown we were advised to social distance but on the weekend tried to break the Guinness Book of Records for the most number of people on British beaches before it became apparent that the British public cannot be trusted to follow guidance and a full lockdown was required.

We don't deserve the freedoms we have.

Watch this evening in Manchester, despite a massive spike in cases the pubs will be packed with people having one last bender despite it being blindingly obvious that the virus will spread rapidly in this environment and common sense would dictate that staying home would be better even if the tier 3 restrictions have not been put in place.

Lockdown didn't fail, the British people have failed, failed to demonstrate their ability to abide by the law and instead do as they please regardless of the consequences.

I've ensured that whenever my parents are out of their own house they wear masks and when people visit them they wear masks. I have stopped associating with people who break the rules because a message needs to be sent out that their actions are reckless and they should be outcast like drunk drivers.

Everyone knows at least 1 family who came back from Spain in the summer that did not even bother to quarantine.

This crisis has shown how selfish a society we have become in vast contrast to the society during world war 2 that did everything possible for their fellow citizens including housing children from the cities in the countryside with families who could have decided those kids were not their problem.

While all of the above are all understable and valid points and opinions, there is definitely one thing for sure imo, we was a month too late in locking down, as clarets fans 1500 or so travelled to Newcastle for our pre lockdown away trip which meant a full football programme, the following week we attended the home match v spurs, another full football programme, Liverpool hosted athletic Madrid, Cheltenham Festival went ahead "250,000 people attending from in some instances other countries" this wasn't rocket science imo, none of it should have gone ahead, matt Hancock had prior to this stated the UK was well prepared, well we all know what happened there !! Next huge mistake 20million people allowed back in the country, we all know how catastrophic this has proved, the care home debacle, I could go on for the next hour or so, but the point is these people are being paid pots of money to make what were very easy decisions, and they failed. That ship has sailed in my opinion the mistake was made first time round, the failings of then can't now be put right. So we come to the here and now, if the numbers are to be believed which is also a controversial issue, then we are so far down the road to having herd immunity, also it's been stated that maybe only 60%of the population will actually have a vaccine, I personally am a renal transplant patient, a vaccine would possibly involve boosting our immune system, so this may not even be possible for myself, but if the 60%is accurate then what, there is still 40%to worry about, so we can lockdown, but for what, yes to save lives, and then open up again, to go through the same process again, as lots of leading scientists are now saying and I have to agree I believe there's only one way out at this stage and that's herd immunity, because we would seem to be so far down that road, as I say again we can't right the wrongs that this government have made, let's get on with it. They don't even seem to be able to identify properly why the numbers are increasing, it was reported yesterday that there's 910 per 100,000 infected in the North west, yet there's only 260 per 100,000 in the south east, which includes London, something doesn't quite strike right there does it, but if these figures are true, then it's time Messrs whitty and vallance got off their arses and did some overtime and found out why, I just think bojo doesn't want us to know the true figures incase he might have to shut he's beloved London down. We await he's announcement on Monday !!

[Grumps]

While all of the above are all understable and valid points and opinions, there is definitely one thing for sure imo, we was a month too late in locking down, as clarets fans 1500 or so travelled to Newcastle for our pre lockdown away trip which meant a full football programme, the following week we attended the home match v spurs, another full football programme, Liverpool hosted athletic Madrid, Cheltenham Festival went ahead "250,000 people attending from in some instances other countries" this wasn't rocket science imo, none of it should have gone ahead, matt Hancock had prior to this stated the UK was well prepared, well we all know what happened there !! Next huge mistake 20million people allowed back in the country, we all know how catastrophic this has proved, the care home debacle, I could go on for the next hour or so, but the point is these people are being paid pots of money to make what were very easy decisions, and they failed. That ship has sailed in my opinion the mistake was made first time round, the failings of then can't now be put right. So we come to the here and now, if the numbers are to be believed which is also a controversial issue, then we are so far down the road to having herd immunity, also it's been stated that maybe only 60%of the population will actually have a vaccine, I personally am a renal transplant patient, a vaccine would possibly involve boosting our immune system, so this may not even be possible for myself, but if the 60%is accurate then what, there is still 40%to worry about, so we can lockdown, but for what, yes to save lives, and then open up again, to go through the same process again, as lots of leading scientists are now saying and I have to agree I believe there's only one way out at this stage and that's herd immunity, because we would seem to be so far down that road, as I say again we can't right the wrongs that this government have made, let's get on with it. They don't even seem to be able to identify properly why the numbers are increasing, it was reported yesterday that there's 910 per 100,000 infected in the North west, yet there's only 260 per 100,000 in the south east, which includes London, something doesn't quite strike right there does it, but if these figures are true, then it's time Messrs whitty and vallance got off their arses and did some overtime and found out why, I just think bojo doesn't want us to know the true figures incase he might have to shut he's beloved London down. We await he's announcement on Monday !!

How many who went to Newcastle,and spurs game caught anything?
How many race fans caught anything?
Not heard of any scousers moaning they caught anything at Anfield.

[ksrclaret]

The year is 2024. Britain is just preparing to ease its sixth national lockdown.

"Maybe this time, the British people will pretend its WW2 again. That is the only way to defeat this virus..."

[SingaporeClarets]

You are right, the lockdown measures were too late and the lockdown should also only have been removed once the testing capacity was in place at a local level with the NHS app working.

The amount of people attending those events does demonstrate though that despite the virus already circulating in the UK and the warnings from how Italy had been impacted that the public still didn't take any notice and I think globally at the time the mixed messages on the use of masks which still continues to date hasn't helped either. I fully support the requirement that masks should be mandatory in all settings outside your own home.

I do also believe that the lack of a national identity system has hampered efforts to contain the spread in the UK and other countries averse to this such as the USA because an NHS app linked to your identity with the right safeguards in place would make contact tracing much easier.

With all this in mind we are still trusting people entering the country to isolate with out any formal system in place knowing that a significant portion of the population cannot even be bothered to follow rules on social distancing or mask wearing, let alone isolating for 14 days.

A recent study in the Lancet has shown that those countries with the strictest lockdowns over a short period of time have successfully curtailed the virus and have opened up much of their economy. The only outstanding issue is international travel but those countries predominantly in the Far East and Pacific region are conveniently close to each other and have travel arrangements in place for business and working together will have a strong lockdown while Europe and America will continue to have half arsed efforts over much longer periods and keep entering mini lockdowns and giving up as quickly as possible to try and reduce the economic impact before having to go through it all again a few months later with further damage to the economy and it will just keep going on costing many times more than just one very strict lockdown.

You will see in 2 weeks when Scotland opens up again, it won't make a difference because the measures don't go far enough. If we want to get out of this then we need to do what countries like Japan, Singapore and Australia have done:

Shut the border
Returning citizens and long term visa holders to quarantine in their own room for 14 days in an approved facility such as a hotel at their own cost (helps boost the hospitality sector)
Stop all non essential work that cannot be done outside your own home for 2 months, no exceptions for government friendly construction companies
Stop all non essential travel outside your own home
Prison sentences for offenders
No socialising outside your household or support bubble
Masks to be worn indoors and outdoors outside your own home
Public Park car parks to be closed, you should only visit parks for exercise close to your home
Illegal to visit beaches for reasons other than walks or exercise
Easy access to Covid testing at GP surgeries
Robust contact tracing in place, prison for those who don't cooperate or give false information

One of the key things that stands out in countries which have beaten the virus is the border, you are ******* in the wind if you are trying to control the spread internally while allowing the virus to be continually imported.

[claret2018]

You can come up with all the rules you want, if you can’t police them then they may as well not exist.

Large amounts of people aren’t following the rules because they know they won’t be fined, and aren’t concerned (rightly or wrongly) about catching the virus.

[SingaporeClarets]

The year is 2024. Britain is just preparing to ease its sixth national lockdown.

"Maybe this time, the British people will pretend its WW2 again. That is the only way to defeat this virus..."

Yet the countries who took it seriously without half arsed measures are not seeing a second wave.

This spike in cases was utterly avoidable but not all the blame can be at the government's feet.

The virus spreads through contact with others, the only way to prevent the spread is to

a) stop people contacting others or
b) put rules in place to allow contact while minimising the ability of spread

B) only works in compliant societies and fortunately the Swedes are compliant despite not having a lockdown otherwise things would have been worse.

If you are not in a compliant society then only A) will work.

If our mentality and selfishness doesn't change, for sure it will be bouncing from one lockdown to the next while other countries look at our incompetent government, idiotic opposition and selfish general population. We will have lost what little respect was left from others about this country.

[alwaysaclaret]

On both of those weekends there were full football programmes, and then scouser v Madrid, and then Cheltenham. I'd pretty much stake my life there's people no longer with us that attended any of these, which may seem a bit of a contradiction, but that's exactly my point, if they'd not gone ahead they may still be here. We are now 6 months down the line and can't right those wrongs, things are different at this stage, which is why in my opinion we should go down herd immunity route. If we'd have lockdown when we should we wouldn't even be having this conversation, when bojo came on TV and said we should do this 3 weeks initially we all bought into it, had he have done the same 1 month earlier we'd have all done the same. Lives would have been saved !

[TheFamilyCat]

Yet the countries who took it seriously without half arsed measures are not seeing a second wave.

This spike in cases was utterly avoidable but not all the blame can be at the government's feet.

The virus spreads through contact with others, the only way to prevent the spread is to

a) stop people contacting others or
b) put rules in place to allow contact while minimising the ability of spread

B) only works in compliant societies and fortunately the Swedes are compliant despite not having a lockdown otherwise things would have been worse.

If you are not in a compliant society then only A) will work.

If our mentality and selfishness doesn't change, for sure it will be bouncing from one lockdown to the next while other countries look at our incompetent government, idiotic opposition and selfish general population. We will have lost what little respect was left from others about this country.

Yeah, but we'll have blue passports

[Longsidebogs]

So the answer then is what, no restrictions? Herd immunity?

Even Sweden have admitted that was a mistake.

Can be pretty sure the opposition would then be complaining that we should have implemented the strongest of lockdowns and herd immunity is irresponsible. The role of opposition is not to be contrary. Maybe Contrary Mary should be Sir Keir's new nickname.

What has gone wrong is the lack of control in British society. Just before lockdown we were advised to social distance but on the weekend tried to break the Guinness Book of Records for the most number of people on British beaches before it became apparent that the British public cannot be trusted to follow guidance and a full lockdown was required.

We don't deserve the freedoms we have.

Watch this evening in Manchester, despite a massive spike in cases the pubs will be packed with people having one last bender despite it being blindingly obvious that the virus will spread rapidly in this environment and common sense would dictate that staying home would be better even if the tier 3 restrictions have not been put in place.

Lockdown didn't fail, the British people have failed, failed to demonstrate their ability to abide by the law and instead do as they please regardless of the consequences.

I've ensured that whenever my parents are out of their own house they wear masks and when people visit them they wear masks. I have stopped associating with people who break the rules because a message needs to be sent out that their actions are reckless and they should be outcast like drunk drivers.

Everyone knows at least 1 family who came back from Spain in the summer that did not even bother to quarantine.

This crisis has shown how selfish a society we have become in vast contrast to the society during world war 2 that did everything possible for their fellow citizens including housing children from the cities in the countryside with families who could have decided those kids were not their problem.

This^^^

[SingaporeClarets]

Yeah, but we'll have blue passports

Just like the politicians, derailing the topic into political point scoring rather than advocating a solution that will see us emerge at the other end having beaten this virus.

No wonder Burnley will be Tier 3 by next Wednesday.

Utterly shameless.

Let's save a thought for those whose jobs will be affected over the next months. Unfortunately any service provider dealing with people in close contact for purposes that are not essential such as drinking alcohol (as opposed to a meal with alcohol) are going to suffer despite these restrictions being necessary. Also health and care workers who must facepalm at the stupidity that the public saw what happened last time but behave as if the virus no longer exists.

If the effects of long covid persist, a lot of these people who get it and say it's the flu will surely know it is not. The long term impact on our society of providing support and care to those that have recovered has not even been discussed. I've never known anyone to have "long flu".

[FactualFrank]

Latest news covers a leading scientist saying we're at breaking point, the same as in March. But in March we were going into warmer weather - this time we're going into winter.

[Grumps]

Latest news covers a leading scientist saying we're at breaking point, the same as in March. But in March we were going into warmer weather - this time we're going into winter.

We also know, or should do, how to prevent it better, we are more prepared medically,ppe,treatments etc and things are already in place which weren't in March.

[FactualFrank]

We also know, or should do, how to prevent it better, we are more prepared medically,ppe,treatments etc and things are already in place which weren't in March.

Very true.

I can only see the same type of lockdown we had in March, happening in the worst areas. Or at least very close.

Hopefully schools can remain open, but the rest would have to be very similar restrictions.

[CrosspoolClarets]

Question: (regarding potential ban on travel outside a tier 3 area, lets assume Burnley becomes tier 3):

Do we agree that (say) a grandparent living in Burnley cannot drive to Whalley to see their grandkids, if the grandparents are living sensibly and staying away from the virus?

Do we agree that the same elderly person cannot drive to Mytton Fold where he has a golf membership, that being his only form of exercise and socialising?

It would seem to be to be repressive, and wrong. I would much prefer measures to tackle the spread which are more targeted, not just geographical broad brushes. But I’m interested in opinions.

I have a genuine view that this will see the PM forced from office. I think he has to be very careful.

[FactualFrank]

Question: (regarding potential ban on travel outside a tier 3 area, lets assume Burnley becomes tier 3):

Do we agree that (say) a grandparent living in Burnley cannot drive to Whalley to see their grandkids, if the grandparents are living sensibly and staying away from the virus?

Do we agree that the same elderly person cannot drive to Mytton Fold where he has a golf membership, that being his only form of exercise and socialising?

It would seem to be to be repressive, and wrong. I would much prefer measures to tackle the spread which are more targeted, not just geographical broad brushes. But I’m interested in opinions.

I have a genuine view that this will see the PM forced from office. I think he has to be very careful.

The first 2 points. Yes, because 'sensibly' will differ from person to person and the country has proven this year what many of us already knew - as a nation we aren't sensible. So think it has to be one rule for everybody, in that area.

[DCWat]

The first 2 points. Yes, because 'sensibly' will differ from person to person and the country has proven this year what many of us already knew - as a nation we aren't sensible. So think it has to be one rule for everybody, in that area.

Unfortunately, I think you’re right.

[SingaporeClarets]

Question: (regarding potential ban on travel outside a tier 3 area, lets assume Burnley becomes tier 3):

Do we agree that (say) a grandparent living in Burnley cannot drive to Whalley to see their grandkids, if the grandparents are living sensibly and staying away from the virus?

Do we agree that the same elderly person cannot drive to Mytton Fold where he has a golf membership, that being his only form of exercise and socialising?

It would seem to be to be repressive, and wrong. I would much prefer measures to tackle the spread which are more targeted, not just geographical broad brushes. But I’m interested in opinions.

I have a genuine view that this will see the PM forced from office. I think he has to be very careful.

Complex rules don't work, simple rules even if they are more repressive work.

That's why with masks, the BMA saying wear masks outside if social distancing is not possible might seem like common sense so that if no one is near you you don't need a mask but that ambiguity will be taken advantage of.

Therefore the rule should be to wear a mask outside under all circumstances except strenuous exercise and to keep away from others when undertaking such exercise. I don't want to be downstream of some sweaty jogger being covered in their droplets.

Where you allow exceptions and ambiguity you give the population the opportunity to further spread the virus.

As the Pacific and Far Eastern countries have shown, only a repressive approach will successfully defeat the virus.

[CrosspoolClarets]

The first 2 points. Yes, because 'sensibly' will differ from person to person and the country has proven this year what many of us already knew - as a nation we aren't sensible. So think it has to be one rule for everybody, in that area.

Yes, I suspected that would be an answer to a genuine, not loaded, question.

The trouble is, many of those sensible older people are the ones who the government purports to be saving with these restrictions, yet when they are asked (we have many in our golf club) they say they should be free to choose. It tends to be younger people insisting on stringent rules. Not entirely, obviously, but I notice the trend.

I’m very concerned about the phrase “protect the NHS”, whereas in fact it is the job of the NHS to protect us. Many of these older people will die from lack of exercise or social stimulation - maybe not today, but earlier than they would. I fear we are shooting ourselves in the foot. The Covid lead of the WHO is opposed to lockdowns for this very reason, heard an interview with him on Spectator TV this week with Andrew Neil (free to watch).

Personally, I would give local mayors the data and let them decide as a locally elected leader. If they decide on lockdown, so be it, but if not, let them choose alternatives.

[SingaporeClarets]

Yes, I suspected that would be an answer to a genuine, not loaded, question.

The trouble is, many of those sensible older people are the ones who the government purports to be saving with these restrictions, yet when they are asked (we have many in our golf club) they say they should be free to choose. It tends to be younger people insisting on stringent rules. Not entirely, obviously, but I notice the trend.

I’m very concerned about the phrase “protect the NHS”, whereas in fact it is the job of the NHS to protect us. Many of these older people will die from lack of exercise or social stimulation - maybe not today, but earlier than they would. I fear we are shooting ourselves in the foot. The Covid lead of the WHO is opposed to lockdowns for this very reason, heard an interview with him on Spectator TV this week with Andrew Neil (free to watch).

Personally, I would give local mayors the data and let them decide as a locally elected leader. If they decide on lockdown, so be it, but if not, let them choose alternatives.

I think there are only two choices.

Either a full on lockdown or no measures at all.

Anything in between is pointless, worldwide it has been shown it does not work and has no effect.

How does the mayor of one town have a full lock down and the next town do nothing work when people can travel freely between the two towns.

However the other thing to remember is how other countries will treat us. If we decide to do nothing, UK nationals will be barred from entering countries that have otherwise reopened to others who through lockdown have defeated the virus.

However if we do this it may have a positive financial impact as long as we don't mind being on a travel blacklist for the next 12 months.

Only Sweden has tried this and it only partly worked and that was in part because the population was compliant and followed the guidelines that were not mandatory.

Time will tell which is the best approach but which ever approach it is, it should be both feet in or out, not some half measures.

[Wile E Coyote]

may be a bit simplistic, but i'm of the opinion that the science advice has been accurate. they in turn pass on the findings to government who are obliged to formulate a plan of action. the whole thing continually breaks down because the public choose to ignore guidelines.pointless having daily updates and sophisticated tracking systems if huge swathes of the populace just stick two fingers up.
meanwhile, those that are willing to comply are held back and restricted time and time again in getting things back to normal because of idiots.

[taio]

may be a bit simplistic, but i'm of the opinion that the science advice has been accurate. they in turn pass on the findings to government who are obliged to formulate a plan of action. the whole thing continually breaks down because the public choose to ignore guidelines.pointless having daily updates and sophisticated tracking systems if huge swathes of the populace just stick two fingers up.
meanwhile, those that are willing to comply are held back and restricted time and time again in getting things back to normal because of idiots.

You're right. And no bigger example than swathes of people not self isolating when they have symptoms.

[DCWat]

The business that I work for is perhaps a slightly more unusual position within all of this - retail installations across the UK and Ireland.

Effectively, work we think, is classed as essential travel, so our guys can be in and out of hot spots. We are a sub contractor but have seen no guidance from the companies that we work for and the independent retailers that we visit are nearly all not bothered about masks etc. The same can’t be said for hotels and restaurants visited as part of working away.

We insist that our guys wear masks and provide sanitiser for hands and cleaning products for vans etc. but it’s far from ideal.

It’s a difficult position - by rights we could refuse work but on the other hand, it wouldn’t be help us from a business perspective.

That’s our balance of risk to take (we undertake our own risk assessments) but as I understand it, each retailer should already have done this (displaying the risk assessment on their premises) and having put all measures in place to ensure safety. They’re rare to see.

It’s a difficult balance for us as a small company. I can’t begin to imagine the countless scenarios that the government has to consider alongside health and the economy and then to simplify this for the masses, it’s a hugely complex task, hindered by people unwilling to do what is right.

The simplest message would be don’t be a dick head!

[FactualFrank]

I’m very concerned about the phrase “protect the NHS”, whereas in fact it is the job of the NHS to protect us. Many of these older people will die from lack of exercise or social stimulation - maybe not today, but earlier than they would. I fear we are shooting ourselves in the foot. The Covid lead of the WHO is opposed to lockdowns for this very reason, heard an interview with him on Spectator TV this week with Andrew Neil (free to watch).

"Protect the NHS" - as in, allow non-Covid procedures/operations to continue, helps save the lives of the hundreds of thousands of people who need hospital treatment that isn't Covid related.

I hope that any national lockdown would allow operations, cancer treatment etc to continue and not keep on being delayed.

So we are protecting the NHS. We're protecting them from no longer being able to protect us.

[Quickenthetempo]

I'm still waiting to find out why we can't make a medicine to kill a virus that soap and water or alcohol based hand cleaner can kill?

P.s Follow the money.

[SingaporeClarets]

I'm still waiting to find out why we can't make a medicine to kill a virus that soap and water or alcohol based hand cleaner can kill?

P.s Follow the money.

The difference is one prevents the virus from entering the body and the second is stopping it once it's in.

They say you can prevent skin cancer with sun cream but you can't cure skin cancer once you have it right? A condom can prevent AIDS but doesn't make it easy to cure.

If more people follow the advice then the medicine becomes irrelevant because we can rely on soap and water to prevent infection in the first place.

As a country our approach to basic hygiene is very different to other countries, hand washing is not done often enough and not a key part of the curriculum of children under 5 including the proper techniques, we continue our lives when we have colds or flu and don't wear masks, it's acceptable to spread these viruses, its socially acceptable to wear shoes in houses with carpets. It's ok to lie on your bed with your shoes on. Other countries think such practices are unhygienic. The idea about handwashing and touching your face should not have been new things to us but should have already been instilled into us as children.

You can bet that once there is a cure and vaccine (remember these are 2 different things) we will not keep practicing things that should already have been second nature and that will be a great shame.

[CombatClaret]

I'm old enough to remember the 5 tier system that was supposed to help us out of lockdown & provide clarity.

All the way back in... May.

The press just pretending that never happened and refusing to ask why that system failed or why this new one will work where the old one didn't.
What a shower this government's handling has been. While their mates get rich skimming multi-million pound contacts without tender for companies set up a few months ago with no experience in the field.

[alwaysaclaret]

Complex rules don't work, simple rules even if they are more repressive work.

That's why with masks, the BMA saying wear masks outside if social distancing is not possible might seem like common sense so that if no one is near you you don't need a mask but that ambiguity will be taken advantage of.

Therefore the rule should be to wear a mask outside under all circumstances except strenuous exercise and to keep away from others when undertaking such exercise. I don't want to be downstream of some sweaty jogger being covered in their droplets.

Where you allow exceptions and ambiguity you give the population the opportunity to further spread the virus.

As the Pacific and Far Eastern countries have shown, only a repressive approach will successfully defeat the virus.

Just on your view of wearing masks I've become particularly chesty around times of wearing a mask, my personal feeling regarding the mask is that 12 months down the line there'll be horrendous issues with this, we'll have a nation of people presenting with chesty /asthma type problems, but good luck with that one because as with lots of other issues we can't get in gp surgery's for love or money, which will also come back to bite us on the bum, the situation with that is ridiculous "GP Surgery's Should Be Open".
Also turning to the ban on leaving local areas, I am as are many other's owner of a static caravan, this restriction will effectively stop people from visiting these, we simply cannot carry on like this, these restrictions when announced tmrw will potentially bring the country to it's knees. The government simply need to get their act together with the chief medical /scientific officer, and specifically narrow things down to exactly where the transmission is coming from and more specifically target those exact things/places, etc them off their arses ffs. For example on Thursday evening I was in my local for an hour, there was no more than 15 people in socially distanced, if I got the train into Central Manchester the numbers would be much greater, so what's the sense in killing a local pub which is doing all it can to keep itself going and the economy going, it doesn't make sense. The number's started increasing in particular when schools and colleges returned, and then universities, while I'm all in favour of smaller children attending school, we all know there's a far greater chance of transmission in colleges and universities, simply because this age group still at this stage don't get how dangerous this virus is and so the vast majority are carrying on as if the virus wasn't here, imo this is where it's kicked off again, and transmitted to older people which has caused the death count to rise, simply because people in college and university have a better survival chance and deal with the virus better, imo of course, but it's not bloody rocket science I don't think.

[SingaporeClarets]

Just on your view of wearing masks I've become particularly chesty around times of wearing a mask, my personal feeling regarding the mask is that 12 months down the line there'll be horrendous issues with this, we'll have a nation of people presenting with chesty /asthma type problems, but good luck with that one because as with lots of other issues we can't get in gp surgery's for love or money, which will also come back to bite us on the bum, the situation with that is ridiculous "GP Surgery's Should Be Open".
Also turning to the ban on leaving local areas, I am as are many other's owner of a static caravan, this restriction will effectively stop people from visiting these, we simply cannot carry on like this, these restrictions when announced tmrw will potentially bring the country to it's knees. The government simply need to get their act together with the chief medical /scientific officer, and specifically narrow things down to exactly where the transmission is coming from and more specifically target those exact things/places, etc them off their arses ffs. For example on Thursday evening I was in my local for an hour, there was no more than 15 people in socially distanced, if I got the train into Central Manchester the numbers would be much greater, so what's the sense in killing a local pub which is doing all it can to keep itself going and the economy going, it doesn't make sense. The number's started increasing in particular when schools and colleges returned, and then universities, while I'm all in favour of smaller children attending school, we all know there's a far greater chance of transmission in colleges and universities, simply because this age group still at this stage don't get how dangerous this virus is and so the vast majority are carrying on as if the virus wasn't here, imo this is where it's kicked off again, and transmitted to older people which has caused the death count to rise, simply because people in college and university have a better survival chance and deal with the virus better, imo of course, but it's not bloody rocket science I don't think.

Maybe the answer is to lockdown anyone between the age of 18 and 30. Maybe it could work?

[alwaysaclaret]

Would make far more sense than what their reported to be doing tmrw, but how we effectively do either is the question, but the target is to best reduce the transmission surely, and tying down the 18-30 in my opinion would best achieve this ???

[FactualFrank]

Would make far more sense than what their reported to be doing tmrw, but how we effectively do either is the question, but the target is to best reduce the transmission surely, and tying down the 18-30 in my opinion would best achieve this ???

But they are the least likely to obey the orders, as has been made clear over the last few weeks.