Can we survive in the PL WITHOUT outside investment?

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Mala591
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Can we survive in the PL WITHOUT outside investment?

Post by Mala591 » Mon Nov 02, 2020 11:09 am

The harsh reality is that we probably can't. However good the manager is (and however fit and well organised the players are) it's impossible to compete season after season after season when your opponents are recruiting players of such technical ability/quality (£20 million plus) that our players begin to look a little bit 'out of their depth'.

I'm sure Dyche and Garlick both intimately understand our current predicament (maybe from a slightly different point of view) and this very delicate 'crossroads' situation has been inevitable for some time.

Let's all hope and pray that the (very difficult) right decisions are made and we evolve to become a successful, exciting and entertaining PL team.

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Re: Can we survive in the PL WITHOUT outside investment?

Post by Guller Bull » Mon Nov 02, 2020 11:14 am

Personally I think we have done that really well. Its a tough ask when you haven't got big financial backers and it relies on perfect execution of the "One club, one mind" mentality

It's such a delicate balance though and at the moment if feels like the equilibrium is gone. Too many unsettling factors afoot.
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Re: Can we survive in the PL WITHOUT outside investment?

Post by Hbclaret007 » Mon Nov 02, 2020 11:18 am

No guarantees we will survive with investment! - See Fulham for example..

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Re: Can we survive in the PL WITHOUT outside investment?

Post by Quickenthetempo » Mon Nov 02, 2020 11:20 am

Nothing lasts forever.

You can survive without outside investment but for how long? We have done 5 straight years but our team needs rebuilding now.

We would need the academy to be producing to go 10 years without outside investment. With one of the main benefits they come through on a very small wage.

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Re: Can we survive in the PL WITHOUT outside investment?

Post by Boss Hogg » Mon Nov 02, 2020 11:21 am

No
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Re: Can we survive in the PL WITHOUT outside investment?

Post by s6t9a2f3f » Mon Nov 02, 2020 11:21 am

No we cant BUT we also know that fact, every single season in the premiership has been a bonus but again like most "small clubs" punching above their weight the evitable usually happens like with Blackburn, Bolton, Wigan, Blackpool, Watford, Bournemouth - small clubs - small capacities - small catchment areas either due to location or other bigger clubs being around.
Every promotion now from the championship you can see at least a case for 1/3 promoted sides to have a good chance of surviving their premiership 1st season and that means a "established" club has to drop and be relegated in their place. Aston Villa spent big money, Sheff Utd spent big money, leeds bidded nearly 30m for White at Brighton these are finances we cant compete with.
Hopefully though when the time comes we at least go down fighting and giving it a right go.

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Re: Can we survive in the PL WITHOUT outside investment?

Post by Silkyskills1 » Mon Nov 02, 2020 11:21 am

Hbclaret007 wrote:
Mon Nov 02, 2020 11:18 am
No guarantees we will survive with investment! - See Fulham for example..
More guaranteed that we won't without it.

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Re: Can we survive in the PL WITHOUT outside investment?

Post by onewillieirvine » Mon Nov 02, 2020 11:23 am

We've done fantastically well to be where we are, considering the finances available to us. Sadly, without considerable investment our place at the top table is going to be short lived. Personally I didn't expect us to even get back to the second tier in the 80's, so it's all been a fantastic bonus. A great last few years indeed.

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Re: Can we survive in the PL WITHOUT outside investment?

Post by onewillieirvine » Mon Nov 02, 2020 11:24 am

We've done fantastically well to be where we are, considering the finances available to us. Sadly, without considerable investment our place at the top table is going to be short lived. Personally I didn't expect us to even get back to the second tier in the 80's, so it's all been a fantastic bonus. A great last few years indeed.

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Re: Can we survive in the PL WITHOUT outside investment?

Post by BOYSIE31 » Mon Nov 02, 2020 11:29 am

Depends where you shop for talent

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Re: Can we survive in the PL WITHOUT outside investment?

Post by FCBurnley » Mon Nov 02, 2020 11:33 am

We certainly can’t survive with Garlick at the helm
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Re: Can we survive in the PL WITHOUT outside investment?

Post by mdd2 » Mon Nov 02, 2020 11:35 am

Blown off course for the third time and little the Club could have done about any of them 1)ITV Digital circa 2002 2) Crash of 2008 which took amongst others Floods money, bankrupted our Vice Chairman 3) Covid-19 looking like that has effectively taken away our Board and ownership by supporters of BFC

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Re: Can we survive in the PL WITHOUT outside investment?

Post by GodIsADeeJay81 » Mon Nov 02, 2020 11:38 am

There are just 6 teams who've never been relegated from the PL since its Inception.

Liverpool, Everton, Man Utd, Arsenal, Chelsea and Spurs.

Everyone else has gone down at least once, Inc City, many have never returned, others have taken nearly a generation like Leeds.

A high % of those clubs have had outside investment and have still gone down.

Survival is possible without, but it needs everyone pulling in the same direction.

Survival is possible with, but it's not guaranteed unless the club grows accordingly and can attract the right players quickly.

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Re: Can we survive in the PL WITHOUT outside investment?

Post by dsr » Mon Nov 02, 2020 11:39 am

FCBurnley wrote:
Mon Nov 02, 2020 11:33 am
We certainly can’t survive with Garlick at the helm
Let alone have 5 consecutive years at the top. It couldn't happen, could it. :roll:
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Re: Can we survive in the PL WITHOUT outside investment?

Post by Chester Perry » Mon Nov 02, 2020 11:39 am


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Re: Can we survive in the PL WITHOUT outside investment?

Post by Dark Cloud » Mon Nov 02, 2020 11:44 am

We've done exceptionally well for 5 years and that's been with minimal investment, but actually (mostly) very shrewd investment and just enough investment to keep us competitive and safe. IMO we really didn't need huge investment this summer, but we did need more of the same, targeted and realistic spending which would keep us on an even keel. I'm not one of those people who after 2 top 10 finishes in 3 years was expecting us to "push on to the next level" because that really is completely unrealistic, but the whole thing is now stagnating and unraveling and as mentioned above the hugely important "one club, one goal" type of mantra is unraveling with it. In answer to the OP, yes we can and to prove it we have, but I believe Garlick has pulled the plug on basically ANY spending (I'm deliberately not counting Stephens for absolutely obvious reasons!!) because of the uncertainty to our income due to Covid and because he has been expecting to sell up since before the summer. All it needs (or needed) was for us to keep doing what we were doing, because we were extremely good at it!

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Re: Can we survive in the PL WITHOUT outside investment?

Post by Tall Paul » Mon Nov 02, 2020 11:46 am

GodIsADeeJay81 wrote:
Mon Nov 02, 2020 11:38 am
There are just 6 teams who've never been relegated from the PL since its Inception.

Liverpool, Everton, Man Utd, Arsenal, Chelsea and Spurs.

Everyone else has gone down at least once, Inc City, many have never returned, others have taken nearly a generation like Leeds.

A high % of those clubs have had outside investment and have still gone down.

Survival is possible without, but it needs everyone pulling in the same direction.

Survival is possible with, but it's not guaranteed unless the club grows accordingly and can attract the right players quickly.
What about Brighton?

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Re: Can we survive in the PL WITHOUT outside investment?

Post by Firthy » Mon Nov 02, 2020 11:51 am

Yes. I think it's the possibility of investment that's screwed us and the reason we didn't make any significant signings.

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Re: Can we survive in the PL WITHOUT outside investment?

Post by NewClaret » Mon Nov 02, 2020 11:54 am

I think we could, but it requires MG to be less cautious and become more comfortable with investing in quality (more expensive) players.

That level of caution has placed us very well during this pandemic, so I'm not knocking it, but I don't think it's possible to survive in the PL much longer without being able to compete for players in the £20m price bracket.

As a preference, I'd rather see Garlick become comfortable with it - I don't see so much of a problem with it, given cost are spread over time, we can sell if we go down and those players should develop in to ones you can sell on at a profit in future (so almost essential to our business model).

But MG wants to sell. He's said he's been looking for a buyer for some time. If someone wants to sell, however much we may debate the various pro's and cons, ultimately we just have to hope the right buyer comes along. For me, that would be someone very rich! Not because I think spending money guarantee's success, just that if we are going to give up our current local ownership, it may as well be someone able to take us to the next level.

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Re: Can we survive in the PL WITHOUT outside investment?

Post by randomclaret2 » Mon Nov 02, 2020 11:59 am

No

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Re: Can we survive in the PL WITHOUT outside investment?

Post by FCBurnley » Mon Nov 02, 2020 12:00 pm

dsr wrote:
Mon Nov 02, 2020 11:39 am
Let alone have 5 consecutive years at the top. It couldn't happen, could it. :roll:
And they were great times. Sadly the Chairman fell out with the Manager and when that happens 1 or both have to go. The loser right now is Burnley FC as the board are clearly not financially supporting the Manager

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Re: Can we survive in the PL WITHOUT outside investment?

Post by MACCA » Mon Nov 02, 2020 12:08 pm

If we were cant afford to buy a 4m Dawson and a 2.5m Elliasson (sp) just to be able to have adequate cover for our paper thin squad, then absolutely not.

We dont need outside investment as such, we just need to have a plan and run the club in the correct way in accordance to that plan.

Taking the cheap option time and time again, whilst wasting money on ageing players hoping to plug a gap for 12-18 months cannot as shown be a long term plan.

Did the top dogs even want to hang around up here for long, or was it a case of hoping to make some money from it?

Sean Dyche over achieving is the only reason we are still here, maybe that's why we fail most windows thinking it will be our last one, for him to pull it out of the bag again.
Last edited by MACCA on Mon Nov 02, 2020 12:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Can we survive in the PL WITHOUT outside investment?

Post by GodIsADeeJay81 » Mon Nov 02, 2020 12:14 pm

Tall Paul wrote:
Mon Nov 02, 2020 11:46 am
What about Brighton?
What about them?

Close to £200 million in debt, the ground and training facilities are a separate entity to the club, but both are 'owned' by a parent company.
Bloom is one of those rich fans, billionaire, who lends the club whatever it needs but hasn't as yet written it off, bit like Eddie Davies who only wrote off what Bolton owed him when the parachute payments ended.

They've yet to finish above us to date, but that could change during this, their 4th consecutive, season.

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Re: Can we survive in the PL WITHOUT outside investment?

Post by aggi » Mon Nov 02, 2020 12:21 pm

GodIsADeeJay81 wrote:
Mon Nov 02, 2020 12:14 pm
What about them?

Close to £200 million in debt, the ground and training facilities are a separate entity to the club, but both are 'owned' by a parent company.
Bloom is one of those rich fans, billionaire, who lends the club whatever it needs but hasn't as yet written it off, bit like Eddie Davies who only wrote off what Bolton owed him when the parachute payments ended.

They've yet to finish above us to date, but that could change during this, their 4th consecutive, season.
They've never been relegated from the Premier League.

Although I agree with the general sentiment. Some people seem to think that we're going to be at the top table forever rather than the reality is that, whatever happens with takeovers, managers, etc we're going to go down at some point.

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Re: Can we survive in the PL WITHOUT outside investment?

Post by GodIsADeeJay81 » Mon Nov 02, 2020 12:26 pm

aggi wrote:
Mon Nov 02, 2020 12:21 pm
They've never been relegated from the Premier League.

Although I agree with the general sentiment. Some people seem to think that we're going to be at the top table forever rather than the reality is that, whatever happens with takeovers, managers, etc we're going to go down at some point.
Ah that's what they were on about, just being cryptic for the sake of it :roll:

Brighton will go down at some point, might take a few years but it will happen of that I'm sure.
They can't grow how they are now, it's going to need a new stadium because I'm fairly sure they can't expand the Amex as it is.
They'll just make up the numbers like the rest of us do.

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Re: Can we survive in the PL WITHOUT outside investment?

Post by warksclaret » Mon Nov 02, 2020 1:02 pm

Its all academic. I have seen enough in the first 6-7 games to feel there are not 3 clubs worse than us right now in the PL. Those below us last year have all strengthened and of those coming up Leeds simply wont go down with their funds and manager. This will be SD's biggest ever achievement-and we are all grasping at two major straws. Firstly Ben coming back, and secondly "we have done it before". I cannot see any take-over before January, and we are becoming less of an attractive purchase each game played. Longer term as many clubs have repeatedly proved with an outside investor, there is no guarantee of staying in the PL, or getting there

We seem to blame everything on money-it would not have taken much to strengthen the team. How may square pegs have we inserted already this season into round holes ie Pieters playing RB and wide right. Jay coming on as right wing. Brownhill played wide when he is best centrally. A budget of £15m with some astute captures might just have been enough to secure a fifth year in the PL

If I have no money with a family to maintain, I would not go out borrowing to buy a settee, change the kitchen, or update my car. However I would not hesitate to borrow a nominal amount to keep my family warm, clothed and fed. I am afraid MG has dropped a clanger here , and it may well be a bye-bye Premier
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Re: Can we survive in the PL WITHOUT outside investment?

Post by Sheedyclaret » Mon Nov 02, 2020 1:12 pm

No we need investment we have stood still to long in to many transfer windows its starting to catch up with us now ..cracks are appearing....

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Re: Can we survive in the PL WITHOUT outside investment?

Post by ClaretEngineer » Mon Nov 02, 2020 1:31 pm

Take away the wealthy owners and the TV money and not one single team in the PL would survive.

The classical romantic idea of football being self sufficient (without the need for external investment) has long since dissolved.

We have managed to survive thus far on some very good fee's for players we have brought on and sold for a relative profit.

None of us like seeing our star players sold, but that was the financial model needed to survive. At present though it seems we've used up our reserves of ''develop and sell'' players leaving us with an ageing squad.

We were once lauded for our strong defence that could shut out the top teams and with enough quality beat most of the rest of the league on our day. Seems we have gone backwards to how were in the 14-15 campaign.

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Re: Can we survive in the PL WITHOUT outside investment?

Post by Devils_Advocate » Mon Nov 02, 2020 1:38 pm

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
GodIsADeeJay81 wrote:
Mon Nov 02, 2020 11:38 am
There are just 6 teams who've never been relegated from the PL since its Inception.

Liverpool, Everton, Man Utd, Arsenal, Chelsea and Spurs.
Tall Paul wrote:
Mon Nov 02, 2020 11:46 am
What about Brighton?
GodIsADeeJay81 wrote:
Mon Nov 02, 2020 12:14 pm
What about them?
aggi wrote:
Mon Nov 02, 2020 12:21 pm
They've never been relegated from the Premier League.
GodIsADeeJay81 wrote:
Mon Nov 02, 2020 12:26 pm
Ah that's what they were on about, just being cryptic for the sake of it :roll:

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Re: Can we survive in the PL WITHOUT outside investment?

Post by JohnMac » Mon Nov 02, 2020 2:15 pm

Our success has become our downfall with lot's of fans having a completely unrealistic idea of where the Club can go.

'We need to move to the next level' after finishing 7th was a case in point.

'We need Garlick out because he won't spend money' is another.

We have had a fairytale ride since Dyche took on the job but it was always going to end and no matter how much we have spent or wish to spend, it was always going to end.

Investment may be just around the corner, it may not. It may release funds for transfers but it may not. It will still end though at some point in the near future. Everything suggests that is a fact and not just a possibility.

Whenever it ends it will still have been the best of times since money changed football irreversibly in the early 1960's.

UTC

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Re: Can we survive in the PL WITHOUT outside investment?

Post by iw1961 » Mon Nov 02, 2020 2:15 pm

I think the real question is whether we can survive in the championship without investment. We have punched above our weight for too long, the lack of investment in the last couple of years has effected what we are left with today. We cannot compete in the transfer market with the majority of Championship clubs these days, and once relegated, the drawbridge won't be pulled up, more bricked shut. If relegated, we may have one go at getting back up, but all I see is relegation to league 1. The main difference being that we won't have the debt, but as crowds drop to 11,000 then so fpp will kick in, the ability to invest will lessen. League 1 with this board is our natural level. That's not a criticism by the way, it's the way it is.
The only thing I really wanted to see was Messi playing at the Turf next season for the Abu Dhabi Oilers or whatever they will become

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Re: Can we survive in the PL WITHOUT outside investment?

Post by ClaretTony » Mon Nov 02, 2020 2:17 pm

Firthy wrote:
Mon Nov 02, 2020 11:51 am
Yes. I think it's the possibility of investment that's screwed us and the reason we didn't make any significant signings.
I don’t think the takeover potential and the lack of signings are connected.

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Re: Can we survive in the PL WITHOUT outside investment?

Post by mdd2 » Mon Nov 02, 2020 2:21 pm

I imagine the lack of signings has been due to ££££££££ and the losses to our accounting model as a result of Covid with no signs of any clearing of the imponderables around the pandemic.
Abu Dhabi Oilers and as for this comment-have you seen the price of Crude oil. It is <$40/barrel and that was the price in the late 70's although it did go as low as $10 in the mid 1990's. Whilst they will still have plenty of spare cash - not as much as 12 months ago

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Re: Can we survive in the PL WITHOUT outside investment?

Post by dsr » Mon Nov 02, 2020 2:34 pm

Is this a "four Yorkshiremen" thread? Who can be the most miserable pessimist?

Honestly, I wasn't aware we'd been relegated to the Championship yet, let alone being on the cusp of League 1.

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Re: Can we survive in the PL WITHOUT outside investment?

Post by Dyched » Mon Nov 02, 2020 2:43 pm

MACCA wrote:
Mon Nov 02, 2020 12:08 pm
If we were cant afford to buy a 4m Dawson and a 2.5m Elliasson (sp) just to be able to have adequate cover for our paper thin squad, then absolutely not.

We dont need outside investment as such, we just need to have a plan and run the club in the correct way in accordance to that plan.

Taking the cheap option time and time again, whilst wasting money on ageing players hoping to plug a gap for 12-18 months cannot as shown be a long term plan.

Did the top dogs even want to hang around up here for long, or was it a case of hoping to make some money from it?

Sean Dyche over achieving is the only reason we are still here, maybe that's why we fail most windows thinking it will be our last one, for him to pull it out of the bag again.
We have had a plan for the past 5 years.

Why do posters keep ignoring Covid time after time. It’s had a massive impact on the way we do things and our finances. Our income has dropped massively and it is a massive amount to us. The top clubs might well be able to carry on as normal. We simply can not. How then can we continue to spend money (large amounts) and £2/3/4/5 million is a large amount to us currently. Then there’s wages on top of fees over a 3 year deal, when we have absolutely no idea what our income is over the next 3 years. Even if we than in this league. I’m pretty sure there’s lots of folk who had plans for a new car, a new home, a holiday back in January that have had to change due to the finances. It’s no different for us. If people can’t commit £15 for PPV due to finances, don’t expect Burnley to spend millions they can’t afford.
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Re: Can we survive in the PL WITHOUT outside investment?

Post by kentonclaret » Mon Nov 02, 2020 3:37 pm

Failure to freshen up the squad with a couple of quality additions will have had a detrimental effect on the manager and some of the senior players (Ben Mee had spoken of the need for 3 or 4 new signings).

There are only so many tunes you can keep getting out of the same old fiddle and Dyche will struggle to motivate this group who have heard it all before many times over.

We had several poor transfer windows before the last one to make Covid an excuse.
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Re: Can we survive in the PL WITHOUT outside investment?

Post by lucs86 » Mon Nov 02, 2020 3:48 pm

Yes we could, we'd just need to commit to a transfer market strategy and stick to it regardless of circumstances. If we make a decent profit on player sales every couple of seasons, as we had been doing until the last couple seasons then we could be sustainable. That fundamentally relies on us bringing in younger players who can develop into regulars and that needs to happen almost every window regardless of takeovers or market forces or bickering between management.
Whatever the reasons, the failure to bring in one replacement for the 2 RMs lost this summer is a dereliction of duty and something needs to change to address it. More money would have helped obviously, but I don't think that alone would have solved it.

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Re: Can we survive in the PL WITHOUT outside investment?

Post by MACCA » Mon Nov 02, 2020 3:56 pm

Dyched wrote:
Mon Nov 02, 2020 2:43 pm
We have had a plan for the past 5 years.

Why do posters keep ignoring Covid time after time. It’s had a massive impact on the way we do things and our finances.
I agree Covid will have had an impact from March, however in previous seasons we have

Started the season with only 2 forwards on the books.
Decided to risk the 2nd half of one season with 2 central midfielders, 1 getting injured straight after the window closed.
We decided not to purchase a 3rd/back up CB one season.
We decided to purchase an injured Wells.

Yes covid is this summer's reasoning for a failed window, but let's not pretend it's the only failed window in recent times, we regularly run risks, or start/end a windows short in areas.

We wouldn't be in this predicament IF we had recruited smartly in the last 2, 3 4 windows.
Our plan of buying ageing players with no resale value, who plug a gap for 12-18 months always leaves you susceptible to things like this.
Now its rebuild time it's too late to act.

Other than Bardsley none of these cheap stop gaps have been of any value, and infact probably cost us millions with not contributing and/or occupying the treatment table.

The old adage buy cheap, but twice. Cut corners expect a bite in the bum
That sums up the last few years "plan" regards player recruitment.

Thankfully Mr Dyche has worked miracles and kept us competitive, but let's not pretend he's been supported or even listened too when he has requested it.

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Re: Can we survive in the PL WITHOUT outside investment?

Post by MACCA » Mon Nov 02, 2020 3:58 pm

kentonclaret wrote:
Mon Nov 02, 2020 3:37 pm
Failure to freshen up the squad with a couple of quality additions will have had a detrimental effect on the manager and some of the senior players (Ben Mee had spoken of the need for 3 or 4 new signings).

There are only so many tunes you can keep getting out of the same old fiddle and Dyche will struggle to motivate this group who have heard it all before many times over.

We had several poor transfer windows before the last one to make Covid an excuse.
Basically this.

Covid is this seasons well timed excuse, and it's easy to blame/mask several poor windows with it.

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Re: Can we survive in the PL WITHOUT outside investment?

Post by BenWickes » Mon Nov 02, 2020 4:08 pm

Certainly should have strengthened long before now. I am however. Not overly worried just yet. We seriously were under strength in the early games due to injuries. We played ok at WBA and could/should have won and deserved more versus Spurs. Turn those marginal chances around, which we usually do/always do and we'll be ok. Bear in mind we looked in deep trouble last season and went on two seven game unbeaten runs, including one in lockdown when our squad was decimated. We'll be ok. Not ideal but we'll be ok.

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Re: Can we survive in the PL WITHOUT outside investment?

Post by warksclaret » Mon Nov 02, 2020 4:20 pm

Virtually evens now at all bookies to go down-3rd favourites. Suspect if bookies knew a little more of the grave situation at our club that we would move to outright favorites

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Re: Can we survive in the PL WITHOUT outside investment?

Post by dsr » Mon Nov 02, 2020 4:21 pm

lucs86 wrote:
Mon Nov 02, 2020 3:48 pm
Yes we could, we'd just need to commit to a transfer market strategy and stick to it regardless of circumstances. If we make a decent profit on player sales every couple of seasons, as we had been doing until the last couple seasons then we could be sustainable. That fundamentally relies on us bringing in younger players who can develop into regulars and that needs to happen almost every window regardless of takeovers or market forces or bickering between management.
Whatever the reasons, the failure to bring in one replacement for the 2 RMs lost this summer is a dereliction of duty and something needs to change to address it. More money would have helped obviously, but I don't think that alone would have solved it.
Put another way, it means selling our best players. We could have sold Mee two or three years ago when his value was higher; we could have sold Tarkowski this summer; we could have sold Pope, or Taylor, or Wood, even Barnes a couple of years ago. Would our side have been better for it? I doubt it.

We aren't signing enough young players of first team potential - that I will agree. But that's not because we can't afford them. We signed Brownhill, we signed Gibson, and of course the aforementioned Tarkowski, Taylor, Pope, also Vydra. Not all of them worked out. But the reason we didn't sign any this summer wasn't because they had no money IMO, it was because they didn't find anyone affordable that they rated enough to sign. If we had sold one of the stars it would have made little or no difference to the signings.

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Re: Can we survive in the PL WITHOUT outside investment?

Post by kentonclaret » Mon Nov 02, 2020 4:48 pm

"it was because they didn't find anyone affordable that they rated enough to sign"

The prices of players proven at Championship level have risen astronomically over the past couple of seasons. The players that Burnley rated good enough were now out of their price bracket which is probably why we have ended up with Stephens as a lone signing. If the plan is to just look for "bargains" then even getting outside investment will not help with that strategy.

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Re: Can we survive in the PL WITHOUT outside investment?

Post by Colburn_Claret » Mon Nov 02, 2020 4:56 pm

We've proved we can for the last 4 years, sadly it doesn't mean we will this season.
Lots of teams with outside investment get relegated on a regular basis, so the 2 aren't linked, it just makes it more difficult, and therefore a much greater achievement if you succeed.

It's obvious the missing players are being felt, it's obvious we lack pace, and it's obvious we lack creativity. We need to show a lot more gung ho attitude, sitting back and accepting fate is not the way I would like to see us go down.

Results are disappointing, but the way we have applied ourselves is far more disappointing. A lot of that is down to SD. I can't for the life of me understand why he keeps moving Brownhill out wide. He's far more effective in the middle. He needs to show a bit of faith and fill the wide berth with his best available right winger. If that's a kid so be it.

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Re: Can we survive in the PL WITHOUT outside investment?

Post by warksclaret » Mon Nov 02, 2020 5:12 pm

We talk about good Championship player prices having risen astronomically. We had the chance to buy players like Bowen, Phillips, Watkins, Bogle, Liam Moore (now attrating interest from Leicester) two to three years ago at probably less than a third of their current values. All are good players and could have been saleable assets in our current dire situation

If we do go down I hope the first thing we ditch is our Recruitment Analytical Dept, though I suspect Rigg will not want to remain in a sinking ship and damage his CV.Sadly that team has no sell on value either

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Re: Can we survive in the PL WITHOUT outside investment?

Post by Spijed » Mon Nov 02, 2020 5:25 pm

warksclaret wrote:
Mon Nov 02, 2020 5:12 pm
We talk about good Championship player prices having risen astronomically. We had the chance to buy players like Bowen, Phillips, Watkins, Bogle, Liam Moore (now attrating interest from Leicester) two to three years ago at probably less than a third of their current values. All are good players and could have been saleable assets in our current dire situation

If we do go down I hope the first thing we ditch is our Recruitment Analytical Dept, though I suspect Rigg will not want to remain in a sinking ship and damage his CV.Sadly that team has no sell on value either
Hang on a minute, we can't buy everyone you've mentioned. What about those we have already got. Wood, Tarkowski, Pope, JBG, Taylor. Every bit, if not better than the players you mentioned.

And all cost next to nothing, except Wood who still looks very good value for what we paid.

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Re: Can we survive in the PL WITHOUT outside investment?

Post by aggi » Mon Nov 02, 2020 5:25 pm

MACCA wrote:
Mon Nov 02, 2020 3:56 pm
I agree Covid will have had an impact from March, however in previous seasons we have

Started the season with only 2 forwards on the books.
Decided to risk the 2nd half of one season with 2 central midfielders, 1 getting injured straight after the window closed.
We decided not to purchase a 3rd/back up CB one season.
We decided to purchase an injured Wells.

Yes covid is this summer's reasoning for a failed window, but let's not pretend it's the only failed window in recent times, we regularly run risks, or start/end a windows short in areas.

We wouldn't be in this predicament IF we had recruited smartly in the last 2, 3 4 windows.
Our plan of buying ageing players with no resale value, who plug a gap for 12-18 months always leaves you susceptible to things like this.
Now its rebuild time it's too late to act.

Other than Bardsley none of these cheap stop gaps have been of any value, and infact probably cost us millions with not contributing and/or occupying the treatment table.

The old adage buy cheap, but twice. Cut corners expect a bite in the bum
That sums up the last few years "plan" regards player recruitment.

Thankfully Mr Dyche has worked miracles and kept us competitive, but let's not pretend he's been supported or even listened too when he has requested it.
Our plan of buying ageing players with no resale value, who plug a gap for 12-18 months always leaves you susceptible to things like this.

I agree with this but I wonder how you're so certain that Dyche hasn't been involved in, or possibly driving, this strategy? The Crouch signing for instance seemed to be down to Dyche.

I don't doubt that it came about as a strategy due to a limited budget but there would still have been the option of taking riskier, younger players on considerably lower wages and hoping they would develop into being first team ready rather than signing stop-gaps for the bench. Was it Dyche or someone else making that choice?

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Re: Can we survive in the PL WITHOUT outside investment?

Post by Jakubclaret » Mon Nov 02, 2020 5:28 pm

Not a hope in hell to answer the question bluntly unless we radically rethink the spending strategy, the club & the infrastructure presently isn't geared up for PL continuance, we seem to be reliant at the moment in holding our hopes out for 3 worst teams rather than widespread confidence.

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Re: Can we survive in the PL WITHOUT outside investment?

Post by Dyched » Mon Nov 02, 2020 5:51 pm

People need to also understand footballers are paid, they actually get wages, honestly.

So when people start saying we need to sign young more young players we should have sign q,r,s,t,u,v,w,x,y and z it’s absolute nonsense.

Even understands (well most) we have a transfer budget. We’ll also have a wage budget. We have probably had around 20 senior players per season in the PL (without looking, may be 1 or 2 more). Take away the starting 11, 9 remain not including any fringe youth players. They need paying as well as needing to be good enough for PL football. So when it comes to forming the back ups for the first 11 why would we sign young players? A lot of players branded about weren’t even Championship players 2/3 years ago. But we were supposed to have signed them over players with 10 years plus PL experience? Come off it. I’d like younger players in the squad. But the reality is, we can’t afford a big squad. I’d prefer a squad with quality over a squad with potential. Potential is the “in” thing in football nowadays. It’s ******* ********. It’s why Arsenal have been **** for 15 years. Obsessed trying to sign the next Thierry Henry they sign players with potential and end up playing young players of Championship standard because they have “potential” to be good in 3 years. Same’s happening at Man U now. James? He’s Championship? Martial? If he was called Clive he’s be at Rangers. McTominay? Might be good in 3 years, he’s Fulham standard. Pogba? Potential. Has he? He’s done sod all for 4 years? Jesse Lingard? He’ll still have potential when he’s 74. So when it comes to us I’d rather we had Lennon, Walters, Crouch coming in rather than a League 1 standard player that might be good in 3 years.

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Re: Can we survive in the PL WITHOUT outside investment?

Post by randomclaret2 » Mon Nov 02, 2020 6:06 pm

Dyched wrote:
Mon Nov 02, 2020 5:51 pm
People need to also understand footballers are paid, they actually get wages, honestly.

So when people start saying we need to sign young more young players we should have sign q,r,s,t,u,v,w,x,y and z it’s absolute nonsense.

Even understands (well most) we have a transfer budget. We’ll also have a wage budget. We have probably had around 20 senior players per season in the PL (without looking, may be 1 or 2 more). Take away the starting 11, 9 remain not including any fringe youth players. They need paying as well as needing to be good enough for PL football. So when it comes to forming the back ups for the first 11 why would we sign young players? A lot of players branded about weren’t even Championship players 2/3 years ago. But we were supposed to have signed them over players with 10 years plus PL experience? Come off it. I’d like younger players in the squad. But the reality is, we can’t afford a big squad. I’d prefer a squad with quality over a squad with potential. Potential is the “in” thing in football nowadays. It’s ******* ********. It’s why Arsenal have been **** for 15 years. Obsessed trying to sign the next Thierry Henry they sign players with potential and end up playing young players of Championship standard because they have “potential” to be good in 3 years. Same’s happening at Man U now. James? He’s Championship? Martial? If he was called Clive he’s be at Rangers. McTominay? Might be good in 3 years, he’s Fulham standard. Pogba? Potential. Has he? He’s done sod all for 4 years? Jesse Lingard? He’ll still have potential when he’s 74. So when it comes to us I’d rather we had Lennon, Walters, Crouch coming in rather than a League 1 standard player that might be good in 3 years.
Except we need to sign young inexpensive players and sell them on at a profit...
Keane bought for £2m , sold for £30m, Gray bought for £9m, sold for £18m etc., etc. We'll end up with a squad of 30+ year olds worth precisely nothing the way we're going

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