In fairness if you read the match report potter accepts responsibility for that & graciously acknowledges defeat he’s not been overly complaining about things yesterday, the main talking point are arising from masons officiating mainly dunks goal that was or wasn’t.
Lee Mason
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Re: Lee Mason
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Re: Lee Mason
I’m pretty sure removing a streaker or a animal or the need for a paramedic would also be sufficient grounds for delaying a free kick as well.TheFamilyCat wrote: ↑Sun Feb 28, 2021 10:17 amI think, though happy to be corrected, that a free kick can be taken immediately unless the ref has to take action to prevent it (book or speak to a player, call a physio on, mark out a wall) and then blows the whistle to restart play when satisfied that everyone is ready for the kick to be take.
Not checking the keeper and wall were ready is the failing here. Even so, I'm not sure why he had to get VAR involved.
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Re: Lee Mason
I think spice is right he blew a but early without checking, realised the goal was still trying to organise and blew quickly again.
Was v much like the first against us at Olympiakos except that wasn't rescinded
Was v much like the first against us at Olympiakos except that wasn't rescinded
Re: Lee Mason
The most worrying aspect of the FK debacle is the way that Mason appears prepared to change his decision baaed on player protests. VAR was helpful in that it bought him some time to gather himself and also allowed him to claim it had been looked at objectively and dispassionately by a third party. It could have descended into a France vs Kuwait situation without VAR.
Of course referees make mistakes but a lot of people identify Lee Mason as the official most likely to make those mistakes. He wasn't concentrating on what was happening around him and it escalated from that initial lapse and was compounded by further mistakes in judgement.
I hear what people are saying about refereeing being a tough gig but that doesn't and shouldn't exempt them from criticism. I think fans would be more forgiving of referees if they explained their decisions after a game.
Of course referees make mistakes but a lot of people identify Lee Mason as the official most likely to make those mistakes. He wasn't concentrating on what was happening around him and it escalated from that initial lapse and was compounded by further mistakes in judgement.
I hear what people are saying about refereeing being a tough gig but that doesn't and shouldn't exempt them from criticism. I think fans would be more forgiving of referees if they explained their decisions after a game.
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Re: Lee Mason
If Brighton get relegated as a result of that and keep a decent club like Fulham or Brom up, I will forgive Mason for every wrong he has done to us.
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Re: Lee Mason
I find it unfair that this incident with the free kick is analysed to death by all and sundry yet the real issues facing Brighton, the fact that they can't score, are glossed over. Why don't the do an in depth analysis of that - it would be far more interesting. But no, Sky etc. will not criticise managers or players too much but referee's seem to bear perpetual and legitimate targets.
As for refs explaining their decisions, that would not be the end of it but just add to the debate and engender further criticism.
Why don't they ask players or managers why they messed up with tactics etc.?
As for refs explaining their decisions, that would not be the end of it but just add to the debate and engender further criticism.
Why don't they ask players or managers why they messed up with tactics etc.?
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Re: Lee Mason
I also don’t understand the clamour for referees to talk after the game. It would serve no purpose and only lead to more criticism.Hipper wrote: ↑Sun Feb 28, 2021 11:23 amI find it unfair that this incident with the free kick is analysed to death by all and sundry yet the real issues facing Brighton, the fact that they can't score, are glossed over. Why don't the do an in depth analysis of that - it would be far more interesting. But no, Sky etc. will not criticise managers or players too much but referee's seem to bear perpetual and legitimate targets.
As for refs explaining their decisions, that would not be the end of it but just add to the debate and engender further criticism.
Why don't they ask players or managers why they messed up with tactics etc.?
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Re: Lee Mason
Stood down today because of injury..... They must think we are stupid!!!
Re: Lee Mason
Referees explaining their decisions would improve understanding and encourage convergence. Their decisions are analysed to the nth degree by pundits as it is, so why not hear it from the horse's mouth? I also think an acknowledgement of doubt, even mistakes, would make reasonable people more empathetic towards them.
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Re: Lee Mason
I don't know if he did. All we have to suggest that is what Dunk said to the media. It's entirely possible Mason was distracted, either didn't hear the question properly or at all, or the question from Dunk was misunderstood, etc. Misunderstandings happen. Mistakes happen.
The important thing here is that no injustice was actually done. As someone has correctly noted, there have been very rare examples if the ref allowing quick free kicks in that sort of situation (the Olympiakos game that we played may well be one), and folk are generally fuming that the ref allowed it. Now they're fuming that he's disallowed it. Both positions can't be right.
It just needs folk to be grown up. Refs manage a football match and manage their own mistakes. The media are essentially arguing that cos he'd made a mistake he shouldn't have rectified it by blowing up again. Everyone should be a bit smarter than that I think.
I do think these sorts of incidents have an impact on the attractiveness of refereeing. They may not do themselves many favours by the lack of clarity sometimes given, but they're perpetually treated as "the other". If a midfielder makes a mistake and rectifies it for his team by giving away a foul and taking a yellow card, they're generally commended for doing the right thing. If a ref tries to resolve a mistake, we get the nonsense that has followed yesterday. It basically invovlves de-humanising referees and that permeates right down to Sunday morning abuse. Why would anyone starting out at the bottom subject themselves to it?
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Re: Lee Mason
I think most level-headed people would agree that the goal shouldn’t have stood therefore the correct outcome was reached. However it appears that there was some poor communication on the field. That was then compounded by ruling out the goal, then allowing it, before disallowing it again. It really was farcical and gave a strong impression that Mason had absolutely no control of the situation.claretspice wrote: ↑Sun Feb 28, 2021 12:11 pmI don't know if he did. All we have to suggest that is what Dunk said to the media. It's entirely possible Mason was distracted, either didn't hear the question properly or at all, or the question from Dunk was misunderstood, etc. Misunderstandings happen. Mistakes happen.
The important thing here is that no injustice was actually done. As someone has correctly noted, there have been very rare examples if the ref allowing quick free kicks in that sort of situation (the Olympiakos game that we played may well be one), and folk are generally fuming that the ref allowed it. Now they're fuming that he's disallowed it. Both positions can't be right.
It just needs folk to be grown up. Refs manage a football match and manage their own mistakes. The media are essentially arguing that cos he'd made a mistake he shouldn't have rectified it by blowing up again. Everyone should be a bit smarter than that I think.
Had Mason ruled the goal out and stuck to his decision I doubt anybody would be talking about this.
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Re: Lee Mason
That narrow point isn't the one made in the media or on this thread though. there's a narrative Brighton were hard done to by a bad decision. That's not the case.Rileybobs wrote: ↑Sun Feb 28, 2021 12:18 pmI think most level-headed people would agree that the goal shouldn’t have stood therefore the correct outcome was reached. However it appears that there was some poor communication on the field. That was then compounded by ruling out the goal, then allowing it, before disallowing it again. It really was farcical and gave a strong impression that Mason had absolutely no control of the situation.
Had Mason ruled the goal out and stuck to his decision I doubt anybody would be talking about this.
Re: Lee Mason
That's just normal....ClaretTony wrote: ↑Sun Feb 28, 2021 12:19 pmHardly - did you see him in the last ten minutes or so yesterday struggling to run, I was amazed he actually saw the game out.
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Re: Lee Mason
pushpinpussy wrote: ↑Sat Feb 27, 2021 6:01 pmhere we go again. another scapegoat. Yes he had a poor game but a bad referee. Maybe you guys need to argue with the powers to be since he as worked is way right to the top and earned is right to be there.
I agree with the scapegoat bit. It was horrendous the way Mike Dean was hung out to dry by VAR twice in a week. The VAR operator getting away with it both times
Who was on VAR both occasions?
LEE F++KING MASON!
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Re: Lee Mason
To be honest I’ve not seen any fall out from the game other than on here. Brighton weren’t hard done to, but if Dunk was told he could take the free kick as suggested then he has every right to feel aggrieved.claretspice wrote: ↑Sun Feb 28, 2021 12:20 pmThat narrow point isn't the one made in the media or on this thread though. there's a narrative Brighton were hard done to by a bad decision. That's not the case.
I doubt anybody would be talking about this had Mason just made the free kick be retaken.
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Re: Lee Mason
Incorrect, Mason was on VAR duty at Fulham but not at the Man U v Southampton gameTHEWELLERNUT70 wrote: ↑Sun Feb 28, 2021 12:22 pmI agree with the scapegoat bit. It was horrendous the way Mike Dean was hung out to dry by VAR twice in a week. The VAR operator getting away with it both times
Who was on VAR both occasions?
LEE MASON!
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Re: Lee Mason
Speaking of correct outcomes being reached yet still managing to **** people off - we had a game a few years ago, maybe Millwall, where I think Stanislas scored, no one complained, we celebrated, they lined up for the kick off and then offside was given.
So whilst it is fair to say that the right outcome was reached and that is the most important thing, the way the decision is made is also important as blundering to the right outcome just casts doubt on whether or not future outcomes are correct and the competence of the people making the decisions.
So whilst it is fair to say that the right outcome was reached and that is the most important thing, the way the decision is made is also important as blundering to the right outcome just casts doubt on whether or not future outcomes are correct and the competence of the people making the decisions.
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Re: Lee Mason
He doesn't though, not if he knows full well that had he been allowed to, it would have enabled him to get away with something that is generally prevented for precisely the reasons that occurred, i.e. the goalkeeper has been allowed to think he has time to set up a wall properly. It's just a misunderstanding.
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Re: Lee Mason
If the referee tells him he can take the kick then of course he is entitled to feel aggrieved when, after scoring, the referee changes his mind. If Mason told Dunk he could take the kick, and referees have been known to do so in similar situations, then he was totally wrong. And even if he didn’t, I think the criticism of the way he handled the aftermath is justified.claretspice wrote: ↑Sun Feb 28, 2021 12:33 pmHe doesn't though, not if he knows full well that had he been allowed to, it would have enabled him to get away with something that is generally prevented for precisely the reasons that occurred, i.e. the goalkeeper has been allowed to think he has time to set up a wall properly. It's just a misunderstanding.
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Re: Lee Mason
Linesman didn't flag, goal was given by Craig Pawson. Then the Millwall players complained to the linesman, Pawson went over and the linesman stuck his flag up almost a minute after the supposed offside offence.duncandisorderly wrote: ↑Sun Feb 28, 2021 12:32 pmSpeaking of correct outcomes being reached yet still managing to **** people off - we had a game a few years ago, maybe Millwall, where I think Stanislas scored, no one complained, we celebrated, they lined up for the kick off and then offside was given.
So whilst it is fair to say that the right outcome was reached and that is the most important thing, the way the decision is made is also important as blundering to the right outcome just casts doubt on whether or not future outcomes are correct and the competence of the people making the decisions.
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Re: Lee Mason
I believe the argument for ex players to be given the role of reffiing should be looked at again. Lets be honest we are never going to see the likes of Rooney, Shearer etc taking up this role with the money they have earned over the years at top level football, however we all read how footballers released for not making the cut or through injury, struggle to come to terms with life after football. Lets make them elite refs and pay them a decent wage for doing so.
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Re: Lee Mason
But as we've already established more likely there was a misunderstanding between Dunk and Mason, because firstly, what Dunk wanted to do isn't generally allowed once the ref has permitted a wall to be constructed, and secondly, had there not been a misunderstanding there would have been no need for the second whistle. Even if that's not the case, there's a mistake by Mason as to the keeper's permission that Dunk knows he's trying to get away with.Rileybobs wrote: ↑Sun Feb 28, 2021 12:37 pmIf the referee tells him he can take the kick then of course he is entitled to feel aggrieved when, after scoring, the referee changes his mind. If Mason told Dunk he could take the kick, and referees have been known to do so in similar situations, then he was totally wrong. And even if he didn’t, I think the criticism of the way he handled the aftermath is justified.
It's a bit like a small child who takes advantage of the fact that they know their parent is distracted to ask for something they know they shouldn't be allowed. When the parent realises what has actually gone on and corrects their response, the child may get upset, but they haven't really lost anything.
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Re: Lee Mason
The issue is that Mason realised his error, corrected it with the second whistle, and then made another error again in awarding the goal.
So he knew that the goal shouldn't stand, or why blow his whistle a second time, but gave it anyway.
So he knew that the goal shouldn't stand, or why blow his whistle a second time, but gave it anyway.
Re: Lee Mason
Let’s hope Mason recovers from his injury quickly and can get back officiating as soon as possible.
#PrayforLee
#PrayforLee
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Re: Lee Mason
I would guess that most referee's played football at one point but weren't that good. Above all they're football fans. In any case I'm not aware that any football player has been denied the opportunity to learn and attempt to referee matches. My guess is most just don't want to.snail12345 wrote: ↑Sun Feb 28, 2021 12:38 pmI believe the argument for ex players to be given the role of reffiing should be looked at again. Lets be honest we are never going to see the likes of Rooney, Shearer etc taking up this role with the money they have earned over the years at top level football, however we all read how footballers released for not making the cut or through injury, struggle to come to terms with life after football. Lets make them elite refs and pay them a decent wage for doing so.
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Re: Lee Mason
The only one I’m aware of doing the referee course is Tony Philliskirk, who got as high as the Northern PremierHipper wrote: ↑Sun Feb 28, 2021 6:11 pmI would guess that most referee's played football at one point but weren't that good. Above all they're football fans. In any case I'm not aware that any football player has been denied the opportunity to learn and attempt to referee matches. My guess is most just don't want to.
Re: Lee Mason
how was that not a bad decision?claretspice wrote: ↑Sun Feb 28, 2021 12:20 pmThat narrow point isn't the one made in the media or on this thread though. there's a narrative Brighton were hard done to by a bad decision. That's not the case.
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Re: Lee Mason
That is a Level 3 referee.
Would still have 2B, 2A , SG2 and then SG1 before refereeing in the Premier league.
He would have gone through 4 promotions to get to that level and be in the top 1% or so.
It is a very long road to the top of the tree.
For perspective at level 3 and above there is less than 400 referees in England.
Re: Lee Mason
Don't know if anyone else has picked it up but apparently Mason was due to be the fourth official at one of today's other games
He had to pull out due to an injury he sustained at West Brom yesterday !
He had to pull out due to an injury he sustained at West Brom yesterday !
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Re: Lee Mason
Yes aware of that, speaking from experience there aren’t enough referees at lower levels either, especially at grassroots.dpinsussex wrote: ↑Sun Feb 28, 2021 10:12 pmThat is a Level 3 referee.
Would still have 2B, 2A , SG2 and then SG1 before refereeing in the Premier league.
He would have gone through 4 promotions to get to that level and be in the top 1% or so.
It is a very long road to the top of the tree.
For perspective at level 3 and above there is less than 400 referees in England.
I’ve sometimes thought that former players could be ideal candidates for referees
Possibly the main reason it doesn’t happen is that the time it would take to become a “top-level” ref.
If they stopped playing football at 30-35, what age would they get there if they had to go through the system?
Also, would they be restricted to the teams they could ref, and not do any of their former teams?
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Re: Lee Mason
My understanding is it will take at least 7 years with perfect promotion record including a double jump early on. Realistically 40 plus.wilks_bfc wrote: ↑Sun Feb 28, 2021 10:25 pmYes aware of that, speaking from experience there aren’t enough referees at lower levels either, especially at grassroots.
I’ve sometimes thought that former players could be ideal candidates for referees
Possibly the main reason it doesn’t happen is that the time it would take to become a “top-level” ref.
If they stopped playing football at 30-35, what age would they get there if they had to go through the system?
Also, would they be restricted to the teams they could ref, and not do any of their former teams?
The problem is with rapid jumping of levels is a lack of refereei g experience. It is so different to playing.
I believe they would be restricted with clubs plus those directly impacted by them. Eg could you imagine an ex man u player refereeing say Liverpool and awarding a major decision against them. It is bad enough now when a referee from Merseyside say goes to Manchester and he has no affiliation to the clubs
Re: Lee Mason
Just seen he will not be officiating this coming weekend due to an injury sustained at West Brom! Wonder who it was that kicked him very hard in the gonads?