Should refs be accountable?

[cricketfieldclarets]

After every game. Managers - who have far more pressure and emotion to deal with are grilled immediately after the game by the press.

I dont think I have ever heard a ref be interviewed in 30 years of the premier league.

They have no accountability. Nothing to answer. I think all of us can accept mistakes and errors. But they dont even have to explain such incompetency that we saw today.

[claptrappers_union]

Skip to 7:44

https://youtu.be/2FftW_Py9q0

[Devils_Advocate]

Managers can just lie and say what they want so would not be held to anywhere near the scrutiny that a ref would if they were stuck in front of the cameras.

All it would be is a witch hunt and even now when refs give their view people just moan and see there all just sticking together.

I think managers should be interviewed together and shown the incidents and made to give their views at the same time and be called out by the interviewer when they are being disingenuous or avoiding answering.

If both managers agree the ref made a really bad decision then fair enough get the ref to explain it but if the managers cant agree what the decision should have been then whats the point

[cricketfieldclarets]

Skip to 7:44

https://youtu.be/2FftW_Py9q0

I cant. I keep playing the first ten seconds on loop. Listen to that.

[Rileybobs]

They are accountable, to the powers that be. I really don’t see what making refs face the camera would solve. I’m pretty certain that if anything it would make us supporters even more disillusioned when they attempt to justify their decisions and cover up their errors. Watching Dermot Gallagher defend every bad decision is painful enough.

[MACCA]

Maybe not made to explain issues, however they should be rewarded or punished for displays like the one today.

Michael Oliver was VAR today what was he playing at, every pundit has said the same, so how Jones saw a foul by Mee, and Oliver couldnt see the penalty or lack of foul by Mee.

MOTD 2, both pundits said Jones got both penalties wrong today.
Getting it wrong with the camera and replay option there is criminal!

[cricketfieldclarets]

Maybe not made to explain issues, however they should be rewarded or punished for displays like the one today.

Michael Oliver was VAR today what was he playing at, every pundit has said the same, so how Jones saw a foul by Mee, and Oliver couldnt see the penalty or lack of foul by Mee.

MOTD 2, both pundits said Jones got both penalties wrong today.
Getting it wrong with the camera and replay option there is criminal!

Genuinely think it’s stubbornness. And refs Union .

[Chester Perry]

Keith Hackett in the Telegraph on today's match referee Robert Jones

Robert Jones' howler makes me wonder - is he fit to referee at the top level?
KEITH HACKETT DECEMBER 27, 2020

Referee Robert Jones was guilty of two major errors in his handling of Burnley's 'equaliser' against Leeds.

The first was being far too quick in blowing his whistle for what he thought was a foul by Burnley defender Ben Mee on Leeds goalkeeper Illan Meslier, a decision which rendered Ashley Barnes' goal moments later irrelevant. He should have delayed blowing the whistle until Barnes had completed his shot: then, the decision could have been checked by the Video Assistant Referee and the correct verdict reached.

If it had gone to the VAR, the goal would have been allowed to stand: there was no foul on Meslier, who simply failed to deal with a high ball. Mee was not looking at the goalkeeper - he was just jumping to compete in the normal way. Football is a contact sport and there was nothing untoward in it.

Actually, that is not quite right: if Jones thought there had been a foul, there was a case that it could have been a penalty to Burnley given how Mee was flattened.

This was a worrying performance. Yes, Jones is new to the PGMOL - this was only his fourth game in the Premier League, and third this season - but he has had several years of experience at Football League and Championship level, and should not be making an error such as this.

It points to a general lack of succession planning at PGMOL, which has not spent enough time preparing the next generation of officials to come in and operate at the required standard, and it also makes me question how these referees are being coached and assessed.

Jones clearly needs some operational advice: his movement is pedestrian and at no time did he apply any dynamic sprinting to get into good viewing positions and appropriate viewing angles.

There were occasions when he lost contact with the game and in this particular instance, this shortfall in pace exposed him to the error of blowing too quickly and ruling out a good goal.

Referees have to be able to keep pace with the match they are officiating. Everyone knows that Leeds, in particular, play a fast brand of football where the ball travels quickly from one end of the pitch to another. Jones did not seem to be able to keep up with the game, which is a failure not only of his officiating, but of the appointment process.

[NewClaret]

I’d like to see them do an interview after the game. It would add something from an entertainment perspective and occasionally explain a different perspective of a situation; I have no issue with refs making honest mistakes if they explain them or apologise. Like Rileybobs says though, would probably just lead to more disillusionment if they just cover up mistakes though.

I’d also like to hear short interviews from managers at HT like you used to get on ITV in the Champions League (not sure if they still do that as don’t have BT). Think you’d get some cracking interviews during the heat of the game!!

[FCBurnley]

Keith Hackett in the Telegraph on today's match referee Robert Jones

Robert Jones' howler makes me wonder - is he fit to referee at the top level?
KEITH HACKETT DECEMBER 27, 2020

Referee Robert Jones was guilty of two major errors in his handling of Burnley's 'equaliser' against Leeds.

The first was being far too quick in blowing his whistle for what he thought was a foul by Burnley defender Ben Mee on Leeds goalkeeper Illan Meslier, a decision which rendered Ashley Barnes' goal moments later irrelevant. He should have delayed blowing the whistle until Barnes had completed his shot: then, the decision could have been checked by the Video Assistant Referee and the correct verdict reached.

If it had gone to the VAR, the goal would have been allowed to stand: there was no foul on Meslier, who simply failed to deal with a high ball. Mee was not looking at the goalkeeper - he was just jumping to compete in the normal way. Football is a contact sport and there was nothing untoward in it.

Actually, that is not quite right: if Jones thought there had been a foul, there was a case that it could have been a penalty to Burnley given how Mee was flattened.

This was a worrying performance. Yes, Jones is new to the PGMOL - this was only his fourth game in the Premier League, and third this season - but he has had several years of experience at Football League and Championship level, and should not be making an error such as this.

It points to a general lack of succession planning at PGMOL, which has not spent enough time preparing the next generation of officials to come in and operate at the required standard, and it also makes me question how these referees are being coached and assessed.

Jones clearly needs some operational advice: his movement is pedestrian and at no time did he apply any dynamic sprinting to get into good viewing positions and appropriate viewing angles.

There were occasions when he lost contact with the game and in this particular instance, this shortfall in pace exposed him to the error of blowing too quickly and ruling out a good goal.

Referees have to be able to keep pace with the match they are officiating. Everyone knows that Leeds, in particular, play a fast brand of football where the ball travels quickly from one end of the pitch to another. Jones did not seem to be able to keep up with the game, which is a failure not only of his officiating, but of the appointment process.

Brilliant review by Hackett. Sadly he didn’t state that Devils Advocate was 100% wrong however it is implied by the truth. Mods. Please stop DA winding up genuine Burnley fans. It serves no purpose and makes him look stupid

[NewClaret]

Maybe not made to explain issues, however they should be rewarded or punished for displays like the one today.

Michael Oliver was VAR today what was he playing at, every pundit has said the same, so how Jones saw a foul by Mee, and Oliver couldnt see the penalty or lack of foul by Mee.

MOTD 2, both pundits said Jones got both penalties wrong today.
Getting it wrong with the camera and replay option there is criminal!

Can’t see him reffing another PL game any time soon!

[tiger76]

Keith Hackett in the Telegraph on today's match referee Robert Jones

Robert Jones' howler makes me wonder - is he fit to referee at the top level?
KEITH HACKETT DECEMBER 27, 2020

Referee Robert Jones was guilty of two major errors in his handling of Burnley's 'equaliser' against Leeds.

The first was being far too quick in blowing his whistle for what he thought was a foul by Burnley defender Ben Mee on Leeds goalkeeper Illan Meslier, a decision which rendered Ashley Barnes' goal moments later irrelevant. He should have delayed blowing the whistle until Barnes had completed his shot: then, the decision could have been checked by the Video Assistant Referee and the correct verdict reached.

If it had gone to the VAR, the goal would have been allowed to stand: there was no foul on Meslier, who simply failed to deal with a high ball. Mee was not looking at the goalkeeper - he was just jumping to compete in the normal way. Football is a contact sport and there was nothing untoward in it.

Actually, that is not quite right: if Jones thought there had been a foul, there was a case that it could have been a penalty to Burnley given how Mee was flattened.

This was a worrying performance. Yes, Jones is new to the PGMOL - this was only his fourth game in the Premier League, and third this season - but he has had several years of experience at Football League and Championship level, and should not be making an error such as this.

It points to a general lack of succession planning at PGMOL, which has not spent enough time preparing the next generation of officials to come in and operate at the required standard, and it also makes me question how these referees are being coached and assessed.

Jones clearly needs some operational advice: his movement is pedestrian and at no time did he apply any dynamic sprinting to get into good viewing positions and appropriate viewing angles.

There were occasions when he lost contact with the game and in this particular instance, this shortfall in pace exposed him to the error of blowing too quickly and ruling out a good goal.

Referees have to be able to keep pace with the match they are officiating. Everyone knows that Leeds, in particular, play a fast brand of football where the ball travels quickly from one end of the pitch to another. Jones did not seem to be able to keep up with the game, which is a failure not only of his officiating, but of the appointment process.

Doesn't make me wonder, Jones isn't fit enough to ref an under 12's game at Townley, the bigger worry is how many others as incompetent are coming through the system, TBF to Jones and it's tough, this was only his 4th game at PL level, and of course the EFL doesn't have the VAR system in operation, however given his inexperience at this level, he'd have been wiser to rely on his VAR help more, particularly for the Ash Barnes 'goal', that was the big error, and he compounded his initial error by blowing too early, hence why the VAR couldn't intervene and correct his mistake.

[cricketfieldclarets]

Can’t see him reffing another PL game any time soon!

And that’s why making them accountable would work in their favour as much as against

[Vegas Claret]

there's too much money involved for them not to be held accountable, that ****** needs at least another 3 seasons in the Championship. There are 3 good refs in the PL, 3, that's it. The rest are dog ****

[bf2k]

there's too much money involved for them not to be held accountable

Spot on. Far too much money at stake on human error

[Wile E Coyote]

yes they should, their decisions should not be some mystical enigma, today we were ruined by THE most inept officiating in recent memory.
What an utter shambolic display. we have technology, and yet these useless clowns forgot to utilise it within the guidelines.
It was an awful display, mistake after mistake and so costly for us potentially.
pointless getting corners and throw in given correctly, and then completely ballsing up every major incident in the match. It was painful to watch. the ben mee incident and barnes goal follow up was a total travesty. they should hang their collective heads in shame.

[Spiral]

Accountable to whom? They are accountable to assessors. Football fans are idiots. I include myself in that. I'm an emotional wreck when we play. Perhaps I'm not the best arbiter of a referee's performance given I have a vested interest in the result, and as such a post-match, theatrical and performative satire of accountability would be just plain silly and would only appeal to my petulant grievances, and would not work to the betterment of the sport itself.

What people are asking for when they want referees to grovel in front of the cameras is a public display of contrition according to their own oftentimes irrationally perceived sense of injustice. It'd be like asking the jury of a court which finds an alleged paedo not-guilty to front up and explain why the onlookers' collective sense of injustice hasn't been validated. It's a counterproductive circus we don't need. Due to the emotional nature of one's interaction with the event, no justification for the verdict would ever be adequate for those who have already made their mind up on the charge. The Mee decision today was a shambles, but that arsehole of a referee explaining himself to the cameras achieves nothing and helps no one. Also, we ought to be better than to hang our fortunes on the decisions of referees.

[IanMcL]

Ref was pits.

[Spiral]

Pits ref was.

[Bobzuruncle]

the booking for westwood kicking the ball too high just topped it all for me !

[Spiral]

Brilliant review by Hackett. Sadly he didn’t state that Devils Advocate was 100% wrong however it is implied by the truth. Mods. Please stop DA winding up genuine Burnley fans. It serves no purpose and makes him look stupid

Can I just say that I agree with basically every word in Keith Hackett's write-up, but I'm not massively keen on your 'no true Scotsman' appeal to purity in having a pop at Devils_Advocate. I'm a "genuine" Burnley fan (here, borrow a few quotation marks to use for emphasis if you want """"""""""""), but trying to be a grass on someone because you don't like what they say is infantile. This forum used to be like 9:15 pm on a Friday at your local, but since all the interesting stuff has been banned it's like 9:15 am on a Tuesday in Wetherspoons, with the RIP threads and the wordsearches and the 55-yo fantasy shags and...oh, look, another RIP thread. Don't shun all the fun folk just because they make you feel a bit uncomfortable every once in a while. Hegemony of thought will kill this site.

[Richardsbfc]

I think the biggest and best way to make them accountable is to have the audio of the decisions available like in Rugby.

Works really well and its clear to the fans (watching on TV) whats going on and how they've come to the decision.

The current way is just a refs union.

[Jimmymaccer]

It’s a closed shop though isn’t it? There’s no alternative provider developing, training or supplying qualified officials or management of match day refereeing. Basically they’re not accountable although maybe one day you’ll see a club sue for a decision which has cost a point, by which they’re ultimately relegated costing millions......

[Dy1geo]

When I played amateur football we used to give the refs a mark out of 10 does this happen at pro level?

[Burnley1989]

Can I just say that I agree with basically every word in Keith Hackett's write-up, but I'm not massively keen on your 'no true Scotsman' appeal to purity in having a pop at Devils_Advocate. I'm a "genuine" Burnley fan (here, borrow a few quotation marks to use for emphasis if you want """"""""""""), but trying to be a grass on someone because you don't like what they say is infantile. This forum used to be like 9:15 pm on a Friday at your local, but since all the interesting stuff has been banned it's like 9:15 am on a Tuesday in Wetherspoons, with the RIP threads and the wordsearches and the 55-yo fantasy shags and...oh, look, another RIP thread. Don't shun all the fun folk just because they make you feel a bit uncomfortable every once in a while. Hegemony of thought will kill this site.

Few beers last night Spiral?

[jojomk1]

Refs are accountable
But, unfortunately, only to their own hierarchy
As far as I am aware, there is an assessor at every game and the day's ref does receive feedback on his performance - after the Lord Mayor's show
There's no doubt that in the modern game the speed of play is much quicker and the job of a ref is much harder. I've not bothered looking back at either incident but am fairly confident to assume the ref was not within 10 yards of either and would have been obstructed from the view of certainly the first pen purely by the positioning of Bamford himself
But, nowadays with VAR, you have to assume wrong decisions are corrected, but they are not, giving rise to the thoughts that refs are looking after their own
For me two things need to happen
1. Four Assistant Refs
All clubs know their own attacking left wing (especially well down towards the defending team's goal) is not covered clearly by officials and so they can take some risks to "cheat"
The same could also be said of the opposing teams right hand side defensive line
Four sideline guys would have a much better view of all incidents in all areas of the pitch
2. Ex Pro part of VAR team
Giving an experienced and independent view on all matters which they have to consider
Michael Oliver was the guy at Stockley Park yesterday so that says it all
Nobody loves Oliver more than himself

[box_of_frogs]

the booking for westwood kicking the ball too high just topped it all for me !

I think it was more Ashley’s reaction to the decision, that the actual “foul”.

[cricketfieldclarets]

I think the biggest and best way to make them accountable is to have the audio of the decisions available like in Rugby.

Works really well and its clear to the fans (watching on TV) whats going on and how they've come to the decision.

The current way is just a refs union.

Good shout

[CleggHall]

My God it’s only a game but referees like this one cause so much grief, bad temper and misery.
How on earth did he get so much wrong?

[Stayingup]

[

[Stayingup]

Keith Hackett in the Telegraph on today's match referee Robert Jones

Robert Jones' howler makes me wonder - is he fit to referee at the top level?
KEITH HACKETT DECEMBER 27, 2020

Referee Robert Jones was guilty of two major errors in his handling of Burnley's 'equaliser' against Leeds.

Jones clearly needs some operational advice: his movement is pedestrian and at no time did he apply any dynamic sprinting to get into good viewing positions and appropriate viewing angles.

There were occasions when he lost contact with the game and in this particular instance, this shortfall in pace exposed him to the error of blowing too quickly and ruling out a good goal.

Referees have to be able to keep pace with the match they are officiating. Everyone knows that Leeds, in particular, play a fast brand of football where the ball travels quickly from one end of the pitch to another. Jones did not seem to be able to keep up with the game, which is a failure not only of his officiating, but of the appointment process.

Unfortunatley it doesn't help as points will not be awarded retrospectively. No doubt this referee will e exiled from the EPL now but what about Oliver???

[arise_sir_charge]

After yesterday’s game I was wondering if the ref would admit to SD in private he got it wrong and offer an apology. It seems he didn’t and said he thought he’d had a good game.

Therein lies the issue for me. Most refs come across as arrogant and in some respects inhuman and so inviting them to share their nonsense justifications of bad decisions would be futile and serve no propose.

I’d also say that Mike Oliver is as responsible as anybody for yesterday’s farce. He has the benefit of the technology and it should be used to assist an inexperienced ref yet he still manages to make unfathomable calls. I suspect as the final whistle blew Oliver also said “good game Rob, well done” or words to that effect.

The whole system is broken and it needs reforming from top to bottom.

[Giftonsnoidea]

I’d say a private investigator would uncover some dodgy funds stashed under his bed from an unknown source!

[NewClaret]

After yesterday’s game I was wondering if the ref would admit to SD in private he got it wrong and offer an apology. It seems he didn’t and said he thought he’d had a good game.

Therein lies the issue for me. Most refs come across as arrogant and in some respects inhuman and so inviting them to share their nonsense justifications of bad decisions would be futile and serve no propose.

I’d also say that Mike Oliver is as responsible as anybody for yesterday’s farce. He has the benefit of the technology and it should be used to assist an inexperienced ref yet he still manages to make unfathomable calls. I suspect as the final whistle blew Oliver also said “good game Rob, well done” or words to that effect.

The whole system is broken and it needs reforming from top to bottom.

Great post. Entirely agree.

Jones is clearly not got to ref at this level, but this one is on Oliver. I can handle the penalty against (not sure it was but we’ve seen softer things given) but then you also have to give them at the other end.

Love that shout above that we should be able to hear their conversations!

[THEWELLERNUT70]

There should be a Ref league table with promotion and relegation through the leagues, that might sharpen a few minds

[Colburn_Claret]

I've complained for a long time, that everyman and his dog gets interviewed post match, apart from the referee.
They are supposedly paid professionals, they should have a duty to explain their decisions. They might make a wrong call occasionally, even refs are human, but just hold your hand up and admit it.
The main problem of not talking to the referee, is it gives them an easy out. It's far more likely they are going to give an honest judgement, even if they call it wrong, if they know that post match they then have to justify that decision.

There are a lot of mistakes made in football, but there are also some that are so bad you have to question the impartiality of the referee. Especially when it comes to penalty decisions concerning the Big 6.

Re Oliver and his non performance on VAR, maybe it's time to change the system so that it's a panel of people, a Ref and ex players to consider the pros and cons. It's obvious from the pundits point of view, compared to Jones, Oliver and Gallagher, that some referees know the rules, but just don't understand the game.

[Giftonsnoidea]

Definitely agree ex players should be employed for VAR, would get some incompetents out of the system then

[tiger76]

Can’t see him reffing another PL game any time soon!

Well you've got that wrong he's on VAR today for Palace-Leicester, and then the man in the middle for Newcastle-Leicester on Sunday, so clearly somebody thinks he had a good game yesterday.

If a ref isn't downgraded after that s**tshow at Elland Road, then they never will be demoted.

[NewClaret]

Well you've got that wrong he's on VAR today for Palace-Leicester, and then the man in the middle for Newcastle-Leicester on Sunday, so clearly somebody thinks he had a good game yesterday.

If a ref isn't downgraded after that s**tshow at Elland Road, then they never will be demoted.

Are they not pre-determined though? So the next opportunity for a demotion would be the next round of selections?

Must be hard VARing a game today with so much criticism ringing in his ears!!

[tiger76]

Are they not pre-determined though? So the next opportunity for a demotion would be the next round of selections?

Must be hard VARing a game today with so much criticism ringing in his ears!!

Possibly they are pre-determined, but I'm sure I've seen instances of officials being switched at short notice, You'd have thought with all the noise surrounding Jones he'd have been taken out of the limelight for a period until it's all calmed down, I'm sure he'll be hoping he doesn't have to make any major VAR decisions today, but with the likes of Vardy around there's every chance he will be called into service.

I'm more curious how he'll manage on Sunday when he's really in the firing line, that will be his real acid test. Surely another major foul up, and he'll be reffing in the lower leagues for the remainder of the season.

[diamondpocket]

Not so sure about ex-players being involved.

Look at pundits, they are usually very biased in 50-50 decisions regarding their own position, ex-strikers are generally in favour for the striker and defenders in favour for the defender. For example, Bobby Zamora yesterday said the Leeds one was a pen! A Shearer & Keown are very biased regards their respective positions.

[NewClaret]

Possibly they are pre-determined, but I'm sure I've seen instances of officials being switched at short notice, You'd have thought with all the noise surrounding Jones he'd have been taken out of the limelight for a period until it's all calmed down, I'm sure he'll be hoping he doesn't have to make any major VAR decisions today, but with the likes of Vardy around there's every chance he will be called into service.

I'm more curious how he'll manage on Sunday when he's really in the firing line, that will be his real acid test. Surely another major foul up, and he'll be reffing in the lower leagues for the remainder of the season.

Only Burnley though, eh!?

It all sounds too logical to pull him but let’s just hope he’s not allowed anywhere near us for a few years!!!

[tiger76]

Only Burnley though, eh!?

It all sounds too logical to pull him but let’s just hope he’s not allowed anywhere near us for a few years!!!

If he is allocated a Burnley game in the near future I'll be even the FA/PL can't be that stupid can they? He'd be on a hiding to nothing, if he gives us a big call or two people would just say he's evening up the score, and if he gave another big call against us Sean would really lose his head.

BTW he wasn't necessarily the only reason we lost yesterday, we may have lost anyway, and perhaps by more if Leeds had taken some of their chances in the 1st half, but he clearly played a major part in the outcome of the match.

[huw.Y.WattfromWare]

By Keith Hackett. Pinched from Phil Birds twitter account.

EE016321-8D92-4E99-AB29-6EE5813A29AB.jpeg (479.24 KiB) Viewed 2020 times

[Colburn_Claret]

Not so sure about ex-players being involved.

Look at pundits, they are usually very biased in 50-50 decisions regarding their own position, ex-strikers are generally in favour for the striker and defenders in favour for the defender. For example, Bobby Zamora yesterday said the Leeds one was a pen! A Shearer & Keown are very biased regards their respective positions.

That's very true, but there's no reason the powers that be can't vet the pundits to assess their ability for the job. The likes of Shearer, who believe contact of any sort is justification for throwing yourself to the ground, would be completely unsuitable.

[Spike]

Oliver on VAR is like giving Hitler the Atom bomb and trusting him to do the right thing
Robert Jones has a history of helping Leeds and if he is the future we are doomed