In the papers today Steele is being hailed a hero.
the point is he cheated at every penalty by moving off his line so early the Newport manager is heard
complaining about the last penalty.
We have refs booking goalkeepers for doing this.
Yet another example of our refs not knowing the rules

claretyke wrote: ↑

Mon Jan 11, 2021 12:26 pm

In the papers today Steele is being hailed a hero.
the point is he cheated at every penalty by moving off his line so early the Newport manager is heard
complaining about the last penalty.
We have refs booking goalkeepers for doing this.
Yet another example of our refs not knowing the rules

Show us the evidence so that you can prove that our refs don't know the rules.
Once you have done that, watch a penalty being taken in real time and you will realise that it doesn't matter whether you know the 'rules' or not.
Had the match been played at Brighton, VAR would have been involved and everything slowed down to decide whether or not there was movement, however, Newport don't have VAR, therefore, you rely on the naked eye at full speed.

Ashingtonclaret46 wrote: ↑

Mon Jan 11, 2021 12:34 pm

Show us the evidence so that you can prove that our refs don't know the rules.
Once you have done that, watch a penalty being taken in real time and you will realise that it doesn't matter whether you know the 'rules' or not.
Had the match been played at Brighton, VAR would have been involved and everything slowed down to decide whether or not there was movement, however, Newport don't have VAR, therefore, you rely on the naked eye at full speed.

Can't the referee just look at him as the penalty is being taken?

FactualFrank wrote: ↑

Mon Jan 11, 2021 12:36 pm

Can't the referee just look at him as the penalty is being taken?

The ref would need to watch both goalie and penalty taker and then make a judgement about when the keeper left his line compared to when the ball is kicked.

Let's be honest, the ref isn't going to worry too much unless it's blatantly obvious.

FactualFrank wrote: ↑

Mon Jan 11, 2021 12:36 pm

Can't the referee just look at him as the penalty is being taken?

I thought that’s why the Lino stood on the line for penalties?

bfccrazy wrote: ↑

Mon Jan 11, 2021 12:39 pm

I thought that’s why the Lino stood on the line for penalties?

I thought linos were just there for the exercise.

GodIsADeeJay81 wrote: ↑

Mon Jan 11, 2021 12:38 pm

The ref would need to watch both goalie and penalty taker and then make a judgement about when the keeper left his line compared to when the ball is kicked.

Let's be honest, the ref isn't going to worry too much unless it's blatantly obvious.

It's a bit of a poor do if the referee can't stand at an angle to watch them both. And as mentioned, the linesman could easily be a spotter.

We had VAR didn’t spot the MK goalie of his line

GodIsADeeJay81 wrote: ↑

Mon Jan 11, 2021 12:38 pm

The ref would need to watch both goalie and penalty taker and then make a judgement about when the keeper left his line compared to when the ball is kicked.

Let's be honest, the ref isn't going to worry too much unless it's blatantly obvious.

Unless the lineman on the goalline is deaf, he can look at the goalkeeper and listen to the sound of the ball being kicked.

claretyke wrote: ↑

Mon Jan 11, 2021 12:26 pm

In the papers today Steele is being hailed a hero.
the point is he cheated at every penalty by moving off his line so early the Newport manager is heard
complaining about the last penalty.
We have refs booking goalkeepers for doing this.
Yet another example of our refs not knowing the rules

Talking about knowing the laws. Pot kettle black springs to mind.

A goalkeeper can only be cautioned where he has clearly come off his line and a goal is not scored. That said the first offence is actually a warning and not a caution.

FactualFrank wrote: ↑

Mon Jan 11, 2021 12:43 pm

It's a bit of a poor do if the referee can't stand at an angle to watch them both. And as mentioned, the linesman could easily be a spotter.

It still comes down to a judgement call, which unless the ref is absolutely certain in that split second, they won't give it.

dsr wrote: ↑

Mon Jan 11, 2021 12:47 pm

Unless the lineman on the goalline is deaf, he can look at the goalkeeper and listen to the sound of the ball being kicked.

Do the linos stand near to the goal or way out near the corner flag?

By the flag, that's a fair way for the sound to travel and the lino to watch the GK, to then judge them in that split second.

If they're next to the goal, they've also got to make a decision that's absolutely right based on a split second.

Unless it's clear and obvious they won't give it

dsr wrote: ↑

Mon Jan 11, 2021 12:47 pm

Unless the lineman on the goalline is deaf, he can look at the goalkeeper and listen to the sound of the ball being kicked.

Pardon?

A mate of mine who refereed locally told me back in the seventies that he always looked at the keeper and listened to the ball being kicked when he blew the whistle as goalies weren`t even allowed to move then and it worked fine for him without technology and he was known as a decent ref by other players.

Burnley Ace wrote: ↑

Mon Jan 11, 2021 12:46 pm

We had VAR didn’t spot the MK goalie of his line

I’ve just watched our pens back and with the naked eye, trying to hit pause at the correct time, neither of the two goalkeepers seem to have come off their line.

My issue is that a penalty shoot out at one ground is not played to the same rules as one at another because of VAR being used at only the Premier League venues.

ClaretTony wrote: ↑

Mon Jan 11, 2021 1:39 pm

I’ve just watched our pens back and with the naked eye, trying to hit pause at the correct time, neither of the two goalkeepers seem to have come off their line.

My issue is that a penalty shoot out at one ground is not played to the same rules as one at another because of VAR being used at only the Premier League venues.

tony --the whole game is not played to the same rules in the FA cup because of that fact. VAR should not be used in FA Cup matches unless it is used in all ties.

GodIsADeeJay81 wrote: ↑

Mon Jan 11, 2021 1:25 pm

Do the linos stand near to the goal or way out near the corner flag?

By the flag, that's a fair way for the sound to travel and the lino to watch the GK, to then judge them in that split second.

If they're next to the goal, they've also got to make a decision that's absolutely right based on a split second.

Unless it's clear and obvious they won't give it

If a linesman can judge when the ball is kicked for offside decisions, then he can do it for penalties. Especially when there are no fans and there are only 4 other people in that half of the pitch.

He stands in the ideal position for judging whether the keeper has moved off his line and whether the ball has gone into the net.

ClaretTony wrote: ↑

Mon Jan 11, 2021 1:39 pm

My issue is that a penalty shoot out at one ground is not played to the same rules as one at another because of VAR being used at only the Premier League venues.

I don't see the issue there. It's the same for both sides. Just because Steeple Sinderby Wanderers don't have goal line technology or VAR is no reason not to use it for the final.

Accrington played a cup tie last year with only one linesman, but it didn't devalue any of the other matches. As long as each match has a refereeing team that is fair an honest, it can't really be helped that some of those teams are better (via technology or otherwise) than others.

Don't goalkeepers always move first?

dsr wrote: ↑

Mon Jan 11, 2021 1:54 pm

I don't see the issue there. It's the same for both sides. Just because Steeple Sinderby Wanderers don't have goal line technology or VAR is no reason not to use it for the final.

Accrington played a cup tie last year with only one linesman, but it didn't devalue any of the other matches. As long as each match has a refereeing team that is fair an honest, it can't really be helped that some of those teams are better (via technology or otherwise) than others.

If it cannot be used throughout the competition, it shouldn’t be used at all.

If our fixture was played at MK Dons, Keoughs red card would have stood (not getting into whether it was right or wrong in the first place)

Ashingtonclaret46 wrote: ↑

Mon Jan 11, 2021 1:49 pm

tony --the whole game is not played to the same rules in the FA cup because of that fact. VAR should not be used in FA Cup matches unless it is used in all ties.

Spot on. The Football League got it right this season in the League Cup - no VAR until the semi final.

wilks_bfc wrote: ↑

Mon Jan 11, 2021 2:01 pm

If it cannot be used throughout the competition, it shouldn’t be used at all.

If our fixture was played at MK Dons, Keoughs red card would have stood (not getting into whether it was right or wrong in the first place)

Exactly what I said in my match report.

The Asst Ref should be stood level with the goal line, at a distance just outside the six yard area
His job would then be to check whether the GK still kept one foot on or behind the line before the kick was taken or, if the ball hit the crossbar, whether it went on to cross the goal line (in which case you should not need goal line technology in all games)
They are level with the GK and only 6+ yards away. A ref can be over 12 yards from the line and at a poor angle
The problem is, Asst Refs do not want to be seen to overrule the man in the middle

So when was the last time that an Assistant Referee ordered a penalty to be retaken ?

And refs dont favour the big teams?
Yeh right
Newport were robbed

Stop the Steele.

wilks_bfc wrote: ↑

Mon Jan 11, 2021 2:01 pm

If it cannot be used throughout the competition, it shouldn’t be used at all.

If our fixture was played at MK Dons, Keoughs red card would have stood (not getting into whether it was right or wrong in the first place)

Where is the advantage is sending off a man unjustly? I really don't see how Newport v Brighton, for example, was affected because Keown was not sent off.

What about goal-line technology? If either ourselves or MK had scored a goal where the camera clearly showed it crossed the line, how would it improve the competition by disallowing it just because Chorley don't have goal line technology?

ClaretTony wrote: ↑

Mon Jan 11, 2021 2:03 pm

Spot on. The Football League got it right this season in the League Cup - no VAR until the semi final.

Not disagreeing with you, but say we had a lower league team get through to the semi like a Burton like the other year, and they were drawn at home, would VAR still have been used for that one game or would the tie have been moved to a Premier League ground capable of providing VAR?

claretburns wrote: ↑

Mon Jan 11, 2021 3:31 pm

Not disagreeing with you, but say we had a lower league team get through to the semi like a Burton like the other year, and they were drawn at home, would VAR still have been used for that one game or would the tie have been moved to a Premier League ground capable of providing VAR?

System installed to be used at the FL ground

MT03ALG wrote: ↑

Mon Jan 11, 2021 2:39 pm

So when was the last time that an Assistant Referee ordered a penalty to be retaken ?

They don't but they can inform the ref that the keeper was off his line and then he orders the retake.

jojomk1 wrote: ↑

Mon Jan 11, 2021 2:21 pm

The Asst Ref should be stood level with the goal line, at a distance just outside the six yard area
His job would then be to check whether the GK still kept one foot on or behind the line before the kick was taken or, if the ball hit the crossbar, whether it went on to cross the goal line (in which case you should not need goal line technology in all games)
They are level with the GK and only 6+ yards away. A ref can be over 12 yards from the line and at a poor angle
The problem is, Asst Refs do not want to be seen to overrule the man in the middle

But they wouldn't be overruling the ref, they can see it but he can't.

Quiet obviously alot on here havn't seen the penalties or they wouldn't be posting all this crap

For what it is it doesn’t constitute enough of a problem, it’s already been said the Ref can’t be certain whether the keeper moves or the balls struck first, in some cases the time disparities probably amount to nano seconds the obvious 1s they probably do pick up on or at least try to, it’s not enough of a drama to get worked up about some you’ll get some you won’t.

claretgimmer wrote: ↑

Mon Jan 11, 2021 1:32 pm

A mate of mine who refereed locally told me back in the seventies that he always looked at the keeper and listened to the ball being kicked when he blew the whistle as goalies weren`t even allowed to move then and it worked fine for him without technology and he was known as a decent ref by other players.

That's what I did - and I wasn't known as a decent ref!

The ref and has team have to look for goalkeepers coming off their line, look for some illegal movement of the penalty taker, and look for both attackers and defenders encroaching into the area, not to mention to notice if the ball crosses the goal line and to deal with what happens if the ball doesn't go straight in the net - it's saved or hits the post etc..

I don't know if there is a standard practice but when I was running the line the ref told me to only look for player encroachment.

Hipper wrote: ↑

Mon Jan 11, 2021 4:34 pm

That's what I did - and I wasn't known as a decent ref!

The ref and has team have to look for goalkeepers coming off their line, look for some illegal movement of the penalty taker, and look for both attackers and defenders encroaching into the area, not to mention to notice if the ball crosses the goal line and to deal with what happens if the ball doesn't go straight in the net - it's saved or hits the post etc..

I don't know if there is a standard practice but when I was running the line the ref told me to only look for player encroachment.

You forgot about the double kick of the ball

He was miles forward off his line every save!..... Lee Mason is useless, another game ruined because of him.

Does anybody else keep thinking 'Remington' when they see the thread title.

I assumed that he might be the son of former Brighton keeper Eric steele - who I was always a fan of even when he went to Mansfield.

The it became obvious yesterday that he was shjt at crosses but great at shot stopping, and i realised that he must be.....

ClaretTony wrote: ↑

Mon Jan 11, 2021 2:03 pm

Spot on. The Football League got it right this season in the League Cup - no VAR until the semi final.

I really don't get this obsession. What about the teams that went out in the quarters? Didn't they deserve VAR too? Why did us having VAR against MK Dons affect any other fixture? I'd have liked a better ref, but that doesn't affect any other fixture either...

Roosterbooster wrote: ↑

Mon Jan 11, 2021 9:09 pm

I really don't get this obsession. What about the teams that went out in the quarters? Didn't they deserve VAR too? Why did us having VAR against MK Dons affect any other fixture? I'd have liked a better ref, but that doesn't affect any other fixture either...

Quite simple really. If our tie had been away then Keogh’s red card would have stood. It is ridiculous to me that all teams in any one round are not playing to the same rules.

ClaretTony wrote: ↑

Mon Jan 11, 2021 9:28 pm

Quite simple really. If our tie had been away then Keogh’s red card would have stood. It is ridiculous to me that all teams in any one round are not playing to the same rules.

But that only affects our game. No-one else's. Different officials and it could have been a different outcome. Its still the same rules of football. The interpretation may differ with VAR. But it does even without it. Should we all have the same type of grass? Lighting? Weather? Its a level playing field because it affects both teams involved the same.

The other point I might make is that without VAR, the ref might have only given a yellow. VAR gave him the chance to review his decision.

Roosterbooster wrote: ↑

Mon Jan 11, 2021 9:57 pm

But that only affects our game. No-one else's. Different officials and it could have been a different outcome. Its still the same rules of football. The interpretation may differ with VAR. But it does even without it. Should we all have the same type of grass? Lighting? Weather? Its a level playing field because it affects both teams involved the same.

The other point I might make is that without VAR, the ref might have only given a yellow. VAR gave him the chance to review his decision.

Not quite correct because if VAR had not been used, the referee had already issued a red card and Keogh would have gone. Had MK Dons then won the game, he would not have been available for the next round. Therefore, as in the case of Smith-Rowe at Arsenal who was also sent off, yes, it was correctly changed by VAR, however, had Arsenal been playing a team outside of the PL in an away game, he would have gone and been unavailable for the next 3 FA Cup games if Arsenal had won through the various rounds.
This means that it does not only affect the game in which VAR is used, it can affect up to another 3 games afterwards depending on the progress of the club and against whom and where they are drawn for the next rounds.

Waters have always been muddied when it comes down to penalties. I'm unsure of the current rules / regulations / interpretations:

Can a keeper still move along the goal-line prior to the penalty kick as long as he doesn't move forwards ?

Can a keeper shout insults / make unusual noises at the taker on his run up ?

Was there a time when the penalty taker had to make a smooth continuous approach to the ball with no stops or stutters ?

When was the last time a penalty had to be re-taken in the Premier League due to player encroachment ?

In modern football, where is the best place to score a penalty ? My uneducated guess would be smashing it down the middle at head height whilst the keeper makes a poor dive one way or the other. Otherwise, being Peter Noble or Graham Alexander would up the % success rate.

Roosterbooster wrote: ↑

Mon Jan 11, 2021 9:57 pm

But that only affects our game. No-one else's. Different officials and it could have been a different outcome. Its still the same rules of football. The interpretation may differ with VAR. But it does even without it. Should we all have the same type of grass? Lighting? Weather? Its a level playing field because it affects both teams involved the same.

The other point I might make is that without VAR, the ref might have only given a yellow. VAR gave him the chance to review his decision.

Sorry but type of grass, lighting is not relevant in my view. What is relevant is that we are not all playing to the same rules and no way would I accept that a referee would consider giving different cards based on whether VAR was used or not.

I believe that by using VAR in some games but not others in a round of a competition is undermining the whole competition.

Ashingtonclaret46 wrote: ↑

Mon Jan 11, 2021 10:31 pm

Not quite correct because if VAR had not been used, the referee had already issued a red card and Keogh would have gone. Had MK Dons then won the game, he would not have been available for the next round. Therefore, as in the case of Smith-Rowe at Arsenal who was also sent off, yes, it was correctly changed by VAR, however, had Arsenal been playing a team outside of the PL in an away game, he would have gone and been unavailable for the next 3 FA Cup games if Arsenal had won through the various rounds.
This means that it does not only affect the game in which VAR is used, it can affect up to another 3 games afterwards depending on the progress of the club and against whom and where they are drawn for the next rounds.

He wouldn’t be banned for 3 Fa Cup games, just the next three domestic fixtures.

May I rain on the parade....?

Every one of Steele’s saves were legal...

It appears that many of you have judged too quickly.

Law 14: “...When the ball is kicked, the defending goalkeeper must have at least part of one foot touching, or in line with, the goal line. The ball is in play when it is kicked and clearly moves.”

FactualFrank wrote: ↑

Mon Jan 11, 2021 5:13 pm

Does anybody else keep thinking 'Remington' when they see the thread title.

I was thinking David.

Happily, Google confirms he's 79 not out.

Ashingtonclaret46 wrote: ↑

Mon Jan 11, 2021 10:31 pm

Not quite correct because if VAR had not been used, the referee had already issued a red card and Keogh would have gone. Had MK Dons then won the game, he would not have been available for the next round. Therefore, as in the case of Smith-Rowe at Arsenal who was also sent off, yes, it was correctly changed by VAR, however, had Arsenal been playing a team outside of the PL in an away game, he would have gone and been unavailable for the next 3 FA Cup games if Arsenal had won through the various rounds.
This means that it does not only affect the game in which VAR is used, it can affect up to another 3 games afterwards depending on the progress of the club and against whom and where they are drawn for the next rounds.

His red card would have been overturned and he wouldn't have been suspended at all. The system for overturning red cards in matches without VAR remains in place.

ClaretTony wrote: ↑

Mon Jan 11, 2021 11:16 pm

Sorry but type of grass, lighting is not relevant in my view. What is relevant is that we are not all playing to the same rules and no way would I accept that a referee would consider giving different cards based on whether VAR was used or not.

I believe that by using VAR in some games but not others in a round of a competition is undermining the whole competition.

I don't think we are playing to different rules. If Keogh had done that "handball" in the Newport v Brighton game, he would have been sent off, but it wouldn't have been sent off according to the rules. The rules said he shouldn't be sent off; the problem would have been that the ref didn't assess the rules correctly.

Having VAR, goal line technology, referees miked up to linesmen and fourth officials, and so on, are all technology to help the referee interpret the rules correctly. They aren't changes of rules. Apart from arguably the offside rule, none of this technology changes any rule at all - it just, again arguably, improves the referee's chances of getting them right.

Out of interest, do you know if they do turn off goal line technology in the League Cup?

dsr wrote: ↑

Tue Jan 12, 2021 1:16 am

His red card would have been overturned and he wouldn't have been suspended at all. The system for overturning red cards in matches without VAR remains in place.

I don't know where you have this notion that his red card would have been overturned. Had Keogh been sent off in a cup tie with no VAR he would not have had it overturned and he would have been serving a suspension.