Burnley v Manchester United - Match Thread
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Re: Burnley v Manchester United - Match Thread
I think it is obvious that if you pit a team who cost a total of £43M against a team who cost almost 11 times as much that you need the opposition to play somewhat below their strengths and/or be very wasteful in front of goal. For all their second half dominance and slick passing I don't think they had a clear chance. United were restricted to shots from outside the area, one of which, unfortunately, took a nick off Lowton's calf to deflect past Pope into the net.
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Re: Burnley v Manchester United - Match Thread
You have a valid point and changing to 451 could have helped but Dyche would have left Wood up on his own so eventually we’d have possibly been overrun anywayexpoultryboy wrote: ↑Tue Jan 12, 2021 10:29 pmIn the first half , United played with 2 holding midfielders which enabled us to compete/nullify their attacking play . When they moved Pogba forward to play alongside Fernandes , there was no way Westy and Brownhill could play against them . They needed help in there .
Most would like that we’d changed the front 2 on the hour mark and taken the game to Utd or at least given them something to think about with the pace of Vydra and a quality and intelligent footballer in Jay Rod
I believe that they would have attempted to link up too
Wood and Barnes are mostly two isolated forwards once Barnes is knackered on the hour Mark or before
Last edited by BleedingClaret on Tue Jan 12, 2021 10:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Burnley v Manchester United - Match Thread
But you've just cherry picked two (really poor) chances that Vydra had tonight to justify why he should start instead of Wood. You also said Vydra is getting into positions that Wood never does and I've clearly demonstrated that to be untrue.
Last edited by Tall Paul on Tue Jan 12, 2021 10:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Burnley v Manchester United - Match Thread
It's a worry when everyone can see this yet dyche cantexpoultryboy wrote: ↑Tue Jan 12, 2021 10:29 pmIn the first half , United played with 2 holding midfielders which enabled us to compete/nullify their attacking play . When they moved Pogba forward to play alongside Fernandes , there was no way Westy and Brownhill could play against them . They needed help in there .
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Re: Burnley v Manchester United - Match Thread
For me Vydra and Jay both need to start next game. Vydra has more pace and guile than Wood. He did more in his late introduction tonight than Wood did all night. I don't want to knock Wood and Barnes but they both appear to be out of form at present.
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Re: Burnley v Manchester United - Match Thread
But on the flip side, scoring first generally means we win the game as well.matttheclaret wrote: ↑Tue Jan 12, 2021 10:33 pmThat's a pretty telling stat. Only 9 in 16 this season too.
For us, conceding a goal pretty much puts paid to any chance of winning the game.
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Re: Burnley v Manchester United - Match Thread
Good effort 1st half but midfield was sliced through again and again in the second until the inevitable happened. Have to keep perspective in that we lost 1-0 to the now leaders!
That being said, I'd like to see a change up front.
That being said, I'd like to see a change up front.
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Re: Burnley v Manchester United - Match Thread
Don't know exactly what our stats are for coming from behind but it's pretty diabolical and we haven't won many points after going behind in our stay in The Prem.matttheclaret wrote: ↑Tue Jan 12, 2021 10:33 pmThat's a pretty telling stat. Only 9 in 16 this season too.
For us, conceding a goal pretty much puts paid to any chance of winning the game.
1st goal for us is massive.
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Re: Burnley v Manchester United - Match Thread
Fair comments. I think if we ever did switch to 451 in any game then I would put Vydra up too purely for the pace on the counter attackBleedingClaret wrote: ↑Tue Jan 12, 2021 10:35 pmYou have a valid point and changing to 451 could have helped but Dyche would have left Wood up on his own so eventually we’d have possibly been overrun anyway
Most would like that we’d changed the front 2 on the hour mark and taken the game to Utd or at least given them something to think about with the pace of Vydra and a quality and intelligent footballer in Jay Rod
I believe that they would have attempted to link up too
Wood and Barnes are mostly two isolated forwards once Barnes is knackered on the hour Mark or before
Re: Burnley v Manchester United - Match Thread
Again, we do alright against these sides, but I'm sick to my back teeth of seeing every single promising piece of football totally break down when it reaches the front two. They are simply immobile and lacking in the technical quality required. When they are off form, boy are they off form.
Last edited by ksrclaret on Tue Jan 12, 2021 10:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Burnley v Manchester United - Match Thread
Vydra isn’t match sharp as he doesn’t get enough minutes
Maybe 30 mins a game he could get there but 10 is joke and 4 for Jay is an insult
Flogging Barnes is ridiculous
Wood offers nothing unless he’s scoring in fairness he has over recent seasons, but how he is worth his place at the moment I don’t know
To leave him on with an exhausted Barnes after the hour does neither of them any favours
Putting Vyds on for Barnes giving Wood time with him could have created spaces due to pace or Jay to try and link up
Dyche just flogged Barnes and Wood was completely lost
Last edited by BleedingClaret on Tue Jan 12, 2021 10:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Burnley v Manchester United - Match Thread
How much longer would you give Wood then? Say he doesn't score in his next 5? Vydra still doesn't deserve a chance then?
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Re: Burnley v Manchester United - Match Thread
Given that we've only netted 9 in 16 we've done remarkably well to post 16 points over that period, however most of the credit for that has to go down to the defence and Pope, we can't expect miracles from them every game, and our lack of goals is becoming a worry, and unless we address this problem we could still find ourselves anxiously looking over our shoulders come the business end of the season.matttheclaret wrote: ↑Tue Jan 12, 2021 10:33 pmThat's a pretty telling stat. Only 9 in 16 this season too.
For us, conceding a goal pretty much puts paid to any chance of winning the game.
Zero creativity in midfield again is a cause for concern, for all the talk of the strikers having barren spells, our midfield need to chip in now and then.
Brady and Westwood both have one apiece, and the rest none, that's not good enough to win games at this level, no matter how well you defend.
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Re: Burnley v Manchester United - Match Thread
In the opinion of many we leave our best two strikers on the bench but it’s not changing them on the hour that ******* most people offtiger76 wrote: ↑Tue Jan 12, 2021 10:43 pmGiven that we've only netted 9 in 16 we've done remarkably well to post 16 points over that period, however most of the credit for that has to go down to the defence and Pope, we can't expect miracles from them every game, and our lack of goals is becoming a worry, and unless we address this problem we could still find ourselves anxiously looking over our shoulders come the business end of the season.
Zero creativity in midfield again is a cause for concern, for all the talk of the strikers having barren spells, our midfield need to chip in now and then.
Brady and Westwood both have one apiece, and the rest none, that's not good enough to win games at this level, no matter how well you defend.
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Re: Burnley v Manchester United - Match Thread
It's a good job Wood didn't score tonight as that would have guaranteed him starting for the rest of the season.
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Re: Burnley v Manchester United - Match Thread
If we carry on at a rate of 1 goal every 2 games, there’s a pretty high chance that we’ll be relegated, so we need to find goals from somewhere.
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Re: Burnley v Manchester United - Match Thread
I'd give him until he stops getting into decent positions to score. Today he didn't, but it was against a team that has just gone top of the league, so let's see how he does against West Ham, he has a good record against them.
If he doesn't score in the next 5, but he's still getting into the right positions, I think you have persevere with him, because it's really just the wrong side of variance.
Re: Burnley v Manchester United - Match Thread
Absolutely, the midfield have never contributed many goals and when the strikers hit a patch of bad form that becomes a problem.tiger76 wrote: ↑Tue Jan 12, 2021 10:43 pmGiven that we've only netted 9 in 16 we've done remarkably well to post 16 points over that period, however most of the credit for that has to go down to the defence and Pope, we can't expect miracles from them every game, and our lack of goals is becoming a worry, and unless we address this problem we could still find ourselves anxiously looking over our shoulders come the business end of the season.
Zero creativity in midfield again is a cause for concern, for all the talk of the strikers having barren spells, our midfield need to chip in now and then.
Brady and Westwood both have one apiece, and the rest none, that's not good enough to win games at this level, no matter how well you defend.
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Re: The Shaw incident
We were awarded a penalty last season after I think it was Bournemouth who had scored at the other endRileybobs wrote: ↑Tue Jan 12, 2021 10:20 pmSeems like he was making it up as he went along to me. I can't recall ever seeing the VAR overturn a free kick for one team by awarding a free kick to the other team for a separate incident at the other end of the pitch.
Obviously it would have been unjust for Man Utd to have a free kick in a goalscoring position due to the refs ineptitude in not awarding us a free kick in the first place, but I didn't think they could just make things up on the spot.
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Re: Burnley v Manchester United - Match Thread
It aint the midfielders fault though is it. Clearly instructed to not go over the halfway line, especially against the big teams where we can't give even more space than we already do with a 2 man midfield. We are then so limited & get our wide players to move inside inside creating space for the full backs to get as far forward as poss, which is usually about 30 yards out whipping balls in from long distance. OK against poorer teams but we do struggle against better teams, tonight in case. Otherwise, it's long ball, win the 2nd balls and pressure teams deep winning the ball in dangerous areas, like we did in the 1st half.tiger76 wrote: ↑Tue Jan 12, 2021 10:43 pmGiven that we've only netted 9 in 16 we've done remarkably well to post 16 points over that period, however most of the credit for that has to go down to the defence and Pope, we can't expect miracles from them every game, and our lack of goals is becoming a worry, and unless we address this problem we could still find ourselves anxiously looking over our shoulders come the business end of the season.
Zero creativity in midfield again is a cause for concern, for all the talk of the strikers having barren spells, our midfield need to chip in now and then.
Brady and Westwood both have one apiece, and the rest none, that's not good enough to win games at this level, no matter how well you defend.
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Re: Burnley v Manchester United - Match Thread
Jay might qualify as one of our best two strikers, I'd argue he's our most natural finisher, Vydra is a tough one to assess simply because we don't see very much of him, he runs the channels well, and looks lively enough, but he's hardly prolific when he gets a run of starts, as he did post-lockdown last season, he's shown glimpses, the goal at Southampton in particular, but question marks still remain about his finishing, he also missed several gilt-edged chances last season, Watford and Sheff Utd spring to mind immediately, I do like him and Jay up front for us, that's when we normally play better football, but the bottom line is whoever plays has to put the ball in the onion bag.BleedingClaret wrote: ↑Tue Jan 12, 2021 10:46 pmIn the opinion of many we leave our best two strikers on the bench but it’s not changing them on the hour that ******* most people off
I would definitely start Jay and Vyds on Saturday, if for no other reason then to show Barnes and Wood that they're not automatic picks, and perhaps that will be the kick up the pants both of them need to start firing again, because the Wolves game apart, both are shooting blanks this campaign.
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Re: Burnley v Manchester United - Match Thread
I honestly agree with those who feel Wood offers the square root of bugger all if he's not sticking the ball in the net. His first touch, control and link up play are reminiscent of The Prairie circa 1987!
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Re: The Shaw incident
But we know that VAR can be used to check for potential penalties. I'm talking about an incident where a free kick is overturned and a free kick is given to another team for a separate incident.dpinsussex wrote: ↑Tue Jan 12, 2021 10:52 pmWe were awarded a penalty last season after I think it was Bournemouth who had scored at the other end
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Re: Burnley v Manchester United - Match Thread
if you want a bizarre stat about not coming back from behind look at Man City if they are losing at half time away from home - it is incrediblediamondpocket wrote: ↑Tue Jan 12, 2021 10:38 pmDon't know exactly what our stats are for coming from behind but it's pretty diabolical and we haven't won many points after going behind in our stay in The Prem.
1st goal for us is massive.
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Re: Burnley v Manchester United - Match Thread
The main problem is we've been over reliant on Dwight for far too long, and now inevitably his form has dipped, we don't have anybody that's looking creative, Brady is probably our most likely source of chances now he's hopefully regaining form and fitness, but Robbie apart we've struggled to get forward this season, now against the likes of United I can understand the cautious approach, and we could have even nicked a draw tonight, but when we face the bottom half teams we need to have a more positive mindset, we do have decent PL players whatever many on here may think, that's why they've played so many games at this level, and sometimes Sean has to release the handbrake and let them express themselves.diamondpocket wrote: ↑Tue Jan 12, 2021 10:54 pmIt aint the midfielders fault though is it. Clearly instructed to not go over the halfway line, especially against the big teams where we can't give even more space than we already do with a 2 man midfield. We are then so limited & get our wide players to move inside inside creating space for the full backs to get as far forward as poss, which is usually about 30 yards out whipping balls in from long distance. OK against poorer teams but we do struggle against better teams, tonight in case. Otherwise, it's long ball, win the 2nd balls and pressure teams deep winning the ball in dangerous areas, like we did in the 1st half.
I still suspect we'll do enough to avoid the bottom 3, as we're more than capable of winning another 6/7 games this season, but the lack of goals is a major concern, and until we start netting at a regular rate we'll be heaping pressure on ourselves to see games out, and making everybody on here lose their fingernails in the process.
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Re: Burnley v Manchester United - Match Thread
Barnes is at least putting his body about and winning fouls. Wood is offering nothing.
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Re: Burnley v Manchester United - Match Thread
I’d actually start Wood and Barnestiger76 wrote: ↑Tue Jan 12, 2021 10:58 pmJay might qualify as one of our best two strikers, I'd argue he's our most natural finisher, Vydra is a tough one to assess simply because we don't see very much of him, he runs the channels well, and looks lively enough, but he's hardly prolific when he gets a run of starts, as he did post-lockdown last season, he's shown glimpses, the goal at Southampton in particular, but question marks still remain about his finishing, he also missed several gilt-edged chances last season, Watford and Sheff Utd spring to mind immediately, I do like him and Jay up front for us, that's when we normally play better football, but the bottom line is whoever plays has to put the ball in the onion bag.
I would definitely start Jay and Vyds on Saturday, if for no other reason then to show Barnes and Wood that they're not automatic picks, and perhaps that will be the kick up the pants both of them need to start firing again, because the Wolves game apart, both are shooting blanks this campaign.
But give Jay & Vyds half an hour
Only after 4 half hours will either of them have match fitness and sharpness
Wood & Barnes have been flogged and given all the responsibility, Jayrod back from a knock and Vydra have been underused and I would doubt that they are ready to start and play a full game
For me if they’d been getting half hours and Wood & Barnes playing for an hour they be sharing the pressure the fatigue and the match fitness and sharpness
I think it’s pure bad man management
Barnes looks like he’s going to break down in the 2nd half
Wood looks like he’s playing under increasing pressure
Vydra will leave and we’ll never know if he’s good enough, may be a Bamford moment
Jay Rod is used as a bit player when Wood and Barnes are available, he is v our best offensive footballer bar none IMO
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Re: Burnley v Manchester United - Match Thread
I'm guessing they've never won or something like that? I guess over the last 5 years or so they've rarely been behind though!Chester Perry wrote: ↑Tue Jan 12, 2021 11:02 pmif you want a bizarre stat about not coming back from behind look at Man City if they are losing at half time away from home - it is incredible
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Re: The Shaw incident
You're being obtuse. VAR clearly differentiates between penalty kicks and free kicks.
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Re: Burnley v Manchester United - Match Thread
Fair comments and if Jay/Vydra aren't up to starting then fine, but something needs to be done and pretty damn quick, otherwise we'll be in the quicksand, I don't often criticise Sean, but his reluctance to make subs earlier is a real bugbear of mine, I can understand wanting to keep your defence and even midfield consistent when you can, but surely we can rotate our 4 strikers better than we currently are.BleedingClaret wrote: ↑Tue Jan 12, 2021 11:13 pmI’d actually start Wood and Barnes
But give Jay & Vyds half an hour
Only after 4 half hours will either of them have match fitness and sharpness
Wood & Barnes have been flogged and given all the responsibility, Jayrod back from a knock and Vydra have been underused and I would doubt that they are ready to start and play a full game
For me if they’d been getting half hours and Wood & Barnes playing for an hour they be sharing the pressure the fatigue and the match fitness and sharpness
I think it’s pure bad man management
Barnes looks like he’s going to break down in the 2nd half
Wood looks like he’s playing under increasing pressure
Vydra will leave and we’ll never know if he’s good enough, may be a Bamford moment
Jay Rod is used as a bit player when Wood and Barnes are available, he is v our best offensive footballer bar none IMO
I do agree Jay is one of our few technically gifted players, and he rarely looks out of place at this level, which can't always be said for some of our squad as whole-hearted as they are.
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Re: Burnley v Manchester United - Match Thread
something like won 1 drawn 12 in over a 100 PL gamesdiamondpocket wrote: ↑Tue Jan 12, 2021 11:17 pmI'm guessing they've never won or something like that? I guess over the last 5 years or so they've rarely been behind though!
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Re: Burnley v Manchester United - Match Thread
Just to confirmtiger76 wrote: ↑Tue Jan 12, 2021 11:25 pmFair comments and if Jay/Vydra aren't up to starting then fine, but something needs to be done and pretty damn quick, otherwise we'll be in the quicksand, I don't often criticise Sean, but his reluctance to make subs earlier is a real bugbear of mine, I can understand wanting to keep your defence and even midfield consistent when you can, but surely we can rotate our 4 strikers better than we currently are.
I do agree Jay is one of our few technically gifted players, and he rarely looks out of place at this level, which can't always be said for some of our squad as whole-hearted as they are.
From early on last season I said I’d start Jay & Vyds just more my type of players but I also think that if you now drop Wood & Barnes and asked Jay & Vyds to do what they can’t and he’d play them until 80 plus mins they’ll likely fail too
The way we play our forwards have to put in a shift
I feel that Barnes & Wood should have been doing an hour and 70/75 mins respectively and Vyds and Jay getting half an hour off the bench
Surely share the workload and present different threats for the opposition to think about
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Re: Burnley v Manchester United - Match Thread
I can't disagree with you BC, and if Barnes and Wood start on Saturday but prove ineffective, then absolutely we should make changes around the hour mark to give the subs a reasonable chance to make an impact, what exactly is Vydra supposed to do in 10 minutes, now if he gets 25/30 and a chance to get up to speed with the pace of the game he might have more chance of finishing if and when the opportunity arises, he's shown that he can finish, but he's also missed his fair share as all strikers do, and if you know your only getting fleeting appearances in the 1st team, then inevitably you'll snatch at the chances when they do come.BleedingClaret wrote: ↑Tue Jan 12, 2021 11:45 pmJust to confirm
From early on last season I said I’d start Jay & Vyds just more my type of players but I also think that if you now drop Wood & Barnes and asked Jay & Vyds to do what they can’t and he’d play them until 80 plus mins they’ll likely fail too
The way we play our forwards have to put in a shift
I feel that Barnes & Wood should have been doing an hour and 70/75 mins respectively and Vyds and Jay getting half an hour off the bench
Surely share the workload and present different threats for the opposition to think about
Starting the big lads isn't a bad shout, and then introducing some pace, and also someone willing to run in behind against a tiring defence could pay dividends.
I don't know what the formula to get our strike force firing is, but SD needs to find it and fast, otherwise a repeat of 14/15 could be on the cards, we defended manfully that season, but Ings apart we couldn't muster enough goals to gain the required victories to survive, and I can sense a horrible feeling of deja vu the way this season is heading.
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Re: Burnley v Manchester United - Match Thread
yes you are right, it was disallowed for the foul but had it gone to VAR and they did their job correctly ( ) then they should have ruled it out for the ball not being in the right place for the cornerwillsclarets wrote: ↑Tue Jan 12, 2021 10:31 pmAh is that why it was disallowed? I thought it was because of a foul
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Re: Burnley v Manchester United - Match Thread
Agreed Man Utd are a top side, but its the same two strikers that could have scored 4 against MK Dons by half time, and there were clear missed chances v Sheff Utd. In fact Wood has had a dreadful score conversion this season. If we dont score we cant win
Re: Burnley v Manchester United - Match Thread
Unless we’re playing against Arsenalwarksclaret wrote: ↑Wed Jan 13, 2021 8:18 amAgreed Man Utd are a top side, but its the same two strikers that could have scored 4 against MK Dons by half time, and there were clear missed chances v Sheff Utd. In fact Wood has had a dreadful score conversion this season. If we dont score we cant win
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Re: Burnley v Manchester United - Match Thread
He haswarksclaret wrote: ↑Wed Jan 13, 2021 8:18 amIn fact Wood has had a dreadful score conversion this season
Last season he scored 14 in 2,446 minutes which is a goal every 174. minuted
This season he has scored 3 in 1,372 which is just a goal every 457 minutes.
Our other strikers this season
Barnes - 1 goal in 878 minutes
Rodriguez 0 goals in 559 minutes
Vydra 0 goals in 177 minutes
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Re: Burnley v Manchester United - Match Thread
Come on DC no need to insult the lads on the Prairie in 1987....Dark Cloud wrote: ↑Tue Jan 12, 2021 11:00 pmI honestly agree with those who feel Wood offers the square root of bugger all if he's not sticking the ball in the net. His first touch, control and link up play are reminiscent of The Prairie circa 1987!
Wood trying to control a football is the weirdest thing ive ever seen from a professional footballer he simply dosent know how to....sad but true!
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Re: Burnley v Manchester United - Match Thread
To be fair to Wood his dip in form has coincided with Dwight's dip in form/injury....i think when Dwight gets up and running again Wood will start to score again,Wood feeds on those whipped in crosses which have dried up....ClaretTony wrote: ↑Wed Jan 13, 2021 9:08 amHe has
Last season he scored 14 in 2,446 minutes which is a goal every 174. minuted
This season he has scored 3 in 1,372 which is just a goal every 457 minutes.
Our other strikers this season
Barnes - 1 goal in 878 minutes
Rodriguez 0 goals in 559 minutes
Vydra 0 goals in 177 minutes
Re: Burnley v Manchester United - Match Thread
Haha...somehow knew what your answer would be...for the minutes Vydra gets he is much more effective than Wood...overall his size and stature makes him a different beast to Wood and in turn he for me gets into better positions...take his goal on Saturday. Would Vydra be afforded the amount of poor games Wood has...absolutley not. No level playing field here, and the fact that the club have activated his 1 year extension not because they value him as a player but to try and get their money back is quite shocking. Dont get me wrong, I like Wood, but right now he is struggling to keep up with the games and his hold up play is quite shocking.