Tall Paul wrote: ↑

Mon Feb 22, 2021 1:32 pm

And goals follow from shots, possession, positioning and quality of chances created (which is what expected goals is assigning a number to).

Also, Brighton have scored more goals than us and conceded the same number yet we're above them in the table. How can that be if goals is the only statistic that matters?

A few years ago we beat Liverpool in a game where we were utterly outplayed in every department and we had 20% possession. The difference on the day is we scored two and they failed to score any.
Now if you want to, as they say, continue arguing over the colour of shite (which I know is your forte) please feel free to do so but this is now arguing for the sake of it, something which tires me. I should get my wife on here, she loves a good circular argument.

Actually football is exceedingly simple but people try to make it more complex than it actually is. I’ve no doubt if I was coaching or managing at a high level it would be helpful but I’m not and neither are 99.9% of MOTD viewers. The original point I suppose is do we need all the shite we see on that programme? I think not.
And no matter how helpful or otherwise it all is there is still only one stat that really concerns fans...who scored the most goals.

Tall Paul wrote: ↑

Mon Feb 22, 2021 1:32 pm

And goals follow from shots, possession, positioning and quality of chances created (which is what expected goals is assigning a number to).

Also, Brighton have scored more goals than us and conceded the same number yet we're above them in the table. How can that be if goals is the only statistic that matters?

Probably because we have got more points than they have ... ie we have won/drawn more ... not because of anything more or less ...

Newcastle have scored more goals than Brighton but have one less point ... because they are shite and have let in more goals etc etc ...

I will re-iterate when they start awarding wins for possession or number of expected goals you have an argument ... they don't ... therefore you haven't ... nuff said

houseboy wrote: ↑

Mon Feb 22, 2021 2:48 pm

A few years ago we beat Liverpool in a game where we were utterly outplayed in every department and we had 20% possession. The difference on the day is we scored two and they failed to score any.
Now if you want to, as they say, continue arguing over the colour of shite (which I know is your forte) please feel free to do so but this is now arguing for the sake of it, something which tires me. I should get my wife on here, she loves a good circular argument.

And your forte is shutting down the discussion when you don't have anything of substance to refute my arguments, so I suppose we'll leave it there.

Bosscat wrote: ↑

Mon Feb 22, 2021 3:10 pm

Probably because we have got more points than they have ... ie we have won/drawn more ... not because of anything more or less ...

Newcastle have scored more goals than Brighton but have one less point ... because they are shite and have let in more goals etc etc ...

I will re-iterate when they start awarding wins for possession or number of expected goals you have an argument ... they don't ... therefore you haven't ... nuff said

So goals aren't the only statistic that matters then, glad we agree.

houseboy wrote: ↑

Mon Feb 22, 2021 2:48 pm

A few years ago we beat Liverpool in a game where we were utterly outplayed in every department and we had 20% possession. The difference on the day is we scored two and they failed to score any.

I’m sorry but we were most definitely not outplayed in every department in that game, it was a defensive and counter attacking masterclass. They created the square root of nothing and, I think their best shot was a 25 yarder into the Jimmy Mac. They wouldn’t have scored that day if the game had gone on until midnight.

Strange isn’t it that stats are pointless and for idiots, yet people in football who are paid more than we could ever dream of seem to think they’re important. I wonder who’s right.

I remember reading a post on here quite a while ago based on an article published by a football stats group. It was round about the time last season when we kept a lot of clean sheets, the majority down to excellenr defending - blocks and so on.
Guess what, us keeping out lots of shots by getting bodies in the waywas not down to coincidence. The coaches had worked out exactly the best positions to do this and the players carried out those instructions to the letter. They used stats, trends, likelihoods and so on and were proactive in using them to our advantage.
Some posters might find that boring, no problem - it would explain a lot.

Rileybobs wrote: ↑

Mon Feb 22, 2021 6:28 pm

Strange isn’t it that stats are pointless and for idiots, yet people in football who are paid more than we could ever dream of seem to think they’re important. I wonder who’s right.

As there are more of us ... Statistically we are right

As I said, that would explain a lot...

Rileybobs wrote: ↑

Mon Feb 22, 2021 6:28 pm

Strange isn’t it that stats are pointless and for idiots, yet people in football who are paid more than we could ever dream of seem to think they’re important. I wonder who’s right.

Not just in football either. Although I'll also say that one of the modules in a Post Grad Diploma I did was Statistics, and if anything, whilst being far from an expert even I could see that there were ways of manipulating them to try and make a point one way or another

Of course but if the livelihood of your club, its players and your job are at stake, you are going to use the ones of relevance to you.

On the Royal Institution Christmas Lectures 2019, they had one of Liverpool's 6 statisticians explaining how every pass is analysed and fitted in to a vast statistical database that shows the likelihood of that pass being part of a move leading to a goal, thus giving advice on how best the players should play. They had something similar for shots.

And you can't say these stats were no use, because the two conclusions he came to were that (i) a pass to an unmarked teammate is the mostly likely pass to be successful, and (ii) shooting from inside the penalty area and from the middle of the field is more likely to go in than shooting from further out or at an angle. Powerful stuff.

we need a bookie, preferably with an irish accent, an anecdotal dimwit( Ally Mcoist) for example, and the human equivalent of sewerage, ...let's go for Paul Ross. put them together and let these skunks decide which is better. stats, or no stats.

Rileybobs wrote: ↑

Mon Feb 22, 2021 6:28 pm

Strange isn’t it that stats are pointless and for idiots, yet people in football who are paid more than we could ever dream of seem to think they’re important. I wonder who’s right.

No wonder the people in football who coincidentally generate money tell us the importance, an honest correlation, feathering ones own nest springs to mind!

Great to see such a good turn out from the Flat Earth Society on this thread.

Hibsclaret wrote: ↑

Mon Feb 22, 2021 5:10 pm

I’m sorry but we were most definitely not outplayed in every department in that game, it was a defensive and counter attacking masterclass. They created the square root of nothing and, I think their best shot was a 25 yarder into the Jimmy Mac. They wouldn’t have scored that day if the game had gone on until midnight.

Very true bud, I was just trying to annoy TP. I think I may have succeeded.

Jakubclaret wrote: ↑

Tue Feb 23, 2021 5:24 am

No wonder the people in football who coincidentally generate money tell us the importance, an honest correlation, feathering ones own nest springs to mind!

You're honestly saying that stats aren't important in football ? Seriously ?

evensteadiereddie wrote: ↑

Tue Feb 23, 2021 11:06 am

You're honestly saying that stats aren't important in football ? Seriously ?

Not really no, stats change if stats stayed the same then yes of course, the only stat that counts is who puts the ball in the back of the net more often thus determining the result, all the other jazz what happens in between is meaningless really, last nights game reflected the stats made no difference over the 90 mins in determining the correct outcome.

And nobody has ever claimed the stats will determine the outcome or score - "correct" or otherwise between two football teams. They can't, can they ? The players aren't robots.
What they can do - take the bookies, for instance, on a wider scale - is show the possibility or likelihood of potential outcomes. Odds are then set accordingly.
Coaches and sports scientists will look at teams or players on perhaps a more individual basis with many aspects of their performance being analysed and gauged against, to some extent, what was planned or expected from them.
Can you imagine a retail business, for example, not studying stats from past, present and potential future performance to assess their future strategy ?

evensteadiereddie wrote: ↑

Tue Feb 23, 2021 4:29 pm

And nobody has ever claimed the stats will determine the outcome or score - "correct" or otherwise between two football teams. They can't, can they ? The players aren't robots.
What they can do - take the bookies, for instance, on a wider scale - is show the possibility or likelihood of potential outcomes. Odds are then set accordingly.
Coaches and sports scientists will look at teams or players on perhaps a more individual basis with many aspects of their performance being analysed and gauged against, to some extent, what was planned or expected from them.
Can you imagine a retail business, for example, not studying stats from past, present and potential future performance to assess their future strategy ?

You can do all this yourself by just reading the match report & listening/watching the game, eg Chris wood starts 6 games & scores 2 goals, 1 being a header & 1 being a volley that means he’s scored 1 in every 3 games & a header in 1 in 6 games & a volley in 1 & 6 games, basic knowledge of the game should tell you what you need to know without even looking or paying attention to the stats.

Turns out stats aren’t for idiots.

Jakubclaret wrote: ↑

Tue Feb 23, 2021 4:41 pm

You can do all this yourself by just reading the match report & listening/watching the game, eg Chris wood starts 6 games & scores 2 goals, 1 being a header & 1 being a volley that means he’s scored 1 in every 3 games & a header in 1 in 6 games & a volley in 1 & 6 games, basic knowledge of the game should tell you what you need to know without even looking or paying attention to the stats.

So anybody could coach or manage at elite level ? No tactics, no planning, no conditioning - nothing based on your side's strengths and the other side's weaknesses ?
Go out, lads, and let's see what happens.

Interesting.

evensteadiereddie wrote: ↑

Tue Feb 23, 2021 6:15 pm

So anybody could coach or manage at elite level ? No tactics, no planning, no conditioning - nothing based on your side's strengths and the other side's weaknesses ?
Go out, lads, and let's see what happens.

Interesting.

We are talking about stats, the things you’ve mentioned are nothing to do with stats, the manager will pick the team based on what there witness on the training ground & who the opposition are, the manager isn’t going to ignore the training side & the opposition & just analyse the opta stats, right lads do what you want, Ashley you play in goals & Nick you are upfront don’t worry about a single thing the stats are more important, FFS kidda.

Jakubclaret wrote: ↑

Tue Feb 23, 2021 6:30 pm

We are talking about stats, the things you’ve mentioned are nothing to do with stats, the manager will pick the team based on what there witness on the training ground & who the opposition are, the manager isn’t going to ignore the training side & the opposition & just analyse the opta stats, right lads do what you want, Ashley you play in goals & Nick you are upfront don’t worry about a single thing the stats are more important, FFS kidda.

You seriously don’t think that managers use statistics to inform team selection and tactics? Wow.

Jakub, are you on the wind up or what ?
Let's take the simple example of the monitors the players wear during training and matches. Why do you think they do that ?

Rileybobs wrote: ↑

Tue Feb 23, 2021 6:32 pm

You seriously don’t think that managers use statistics to inform team selection? Wow.

I think what there witness with there eyes will be far more important & also the selection may be dependent on current league status & future games ahead as we saw with Bournemouth omissions & whether the players are match fit.

Jakubclaret wrote: ↑

Tue Feb 23, 2021 6:35 pm

I think what there witness with there eyes will be far more important & also the selection may be dependent on current league status & future games ahead as we saw with Bournemouth omissions & whether the players are match fit.

But nobody has said that managers won’t also use their eyes.

Do you think managers use statistics to inform team selection and tactics, yes or no?

Rileybobs wrote: ↑

Tue Feb 23, 2021 6:32 pm

You seriously don’t think that managers use statistics to inform team selection and tactics? Wow.

According to you it’s a pointless having Barnfield we should just shut the training centre & analyse some stats!

Jakubclaret wrote: ↑

Tue Feb 23, 2021 6:30 pm

We are talking about stats, the things you’ve mentioned are nothing to do with stats, the manager will pick the team based on what there witness on the training ground & who the opposition are, the manager isn’t going to ignore the training side & the opposition & just analyse the opta stats, right lads do what you want, Ashley you play in goals & Nick you are upfront don’t worry about a single thing the stats are more important, FFS kidda.

Stats the general public see vs the stats what football clubs collect are miles apart. We only see a small selection of stats on a game by game basis. Yes there’s access to large amounts of stats based on games. But football clubs have a far higher selection. Take a forward like Giroud for instance. He might not have the best stats in terms of goals/assists. But his stats for collecting the ball in key areas and holding it, drawing in defenders leaving the likes of Mbappe/Griezmann to have more openings will be more beneficial.

So fans might look and think stats are pointless based on his goals/assists return and why’s he playing, but the overall team performance based on where he picks it up and how he uses it could be greatly improved with him in it.

Jakubclaret wrote: ↑

Tue Feb 23, 2021 6:38 pm

According to you it’s a pointless having Barnfield we should just shut the training centre & analyse some stats!

What are you prattling on about?

Do you think managers use statistics to inform team selection and tactics, yes or no?

Rileybobs wrote: ↑

Tue Feb 23, 2021 6:41 pm

What are you prattling on about?

Do you think managers use statistics to inform team selection and tactics, yes or no?

Yes & no, depending on the manager & the circumstances, a short striker might be in a rich vein of form & scoring heavy, the stats may indicate the opposition CHs are tall suggesting it’s wrong to play this short striker if the supply is aerial, a manager with nous may ignore the stats misgivings & go with his gut instinct or play on the deck to offset the height disparity. Managers are not religiously wed to stats but are probably used for general guidance in some circumstances & on some occasions, I think FIFA on the PS & XBox is getting some people carried away here.

evensteadiereddie wrote: ↑

Tue Feb 23, 2021 6:34 pm

Jakub, are you on the wind up or what ?

I've been wondering that for a long time. Sometimes I'm sure he must be but then i think it's impossible for anyone to be able to keep up such an act.

Jakubclaret wrote: ↑

Tue Feb 23, 2021 6:50 pm

Yes & no, depending on the manager & the circumstances, a short striker might be in a rich vein of form & scoring heavy, the stats may indicate the opposition CHs are tall suggesting it’s wrong to play this short striker if the supply is aerial, a manager with nous may ignore the stats misgivings & go with his gut instinct or play on the deck to offset the height disparity. Managers are not religiously wed to stats but are probably used for general guidance in some circumstances & on some occasions, I think FIFA on the PS & XBox is getting some people carried away here.

Yes would have sufficed.

Rileybobs wrote: ↑

Tue Feb 23, 2021 6:52 pm

Yes would have sufficed.

It wasn’t a yes or no question, how many chillis do you put into a curry to make hot?

Jakubclaret wrote: ↑

Tue Feb 23, 2021 6:54 pm

It wasn’t a yes or no question, how many chillis do you put into a curry to make hot?

Yes.

Get out of that one, Riley.

Jakubclaret wrote: ↑

Tue Feb 23, 2021 6:50 pm

Yes & no, depending on the manager & the circumstances, a short striker might be in a rich vein of form & scoring heavy, the stats may indicate the opposition CHs are tall suggesting it’s wrong to play this short striker if the supply is aerial, a manager with nous may ignore the stats misgivings & go with his gut instinct or play on the deck to offset the height disparity. Managers are not religiously wed to stats but are probably used for general guidance in some circumstances & on some occasions, I think FIFA on the PS & XBox is getting some people carried away here.

If the manager decides to play into feet to the short striker against tall CHs, surely the manager has used the stats to come to that conclusion?

Rileybobs wrote: ↑

Tue Feb 23, 2021 6:56 pm

Yes.

How do you define hot when some people prefer rogan Josh’s or jalfrezis, there isn’t a right answer because everybody’s different, same as the managers the old school managers such as Neil warnock or Roy Hodgson ect wouldn’t necessarily analyse the stats compared to younger managers, the stats simply aren’t important to some people despite you believing contrary.

Jakubclaret wrote: ↑

Tue Feb 23, 2021 7:00 pm

How do you define hot when some people prefer rogan Josh’s or jalfrezis, there isn’t a right answer because everybody’s different, same as the managers the old school managers such as Neil warnock or Roy Hodgson ect wouldn’t necessarily analyse the stats compared to younger managers, the stats simply aren’t important to some people despite you believing contrary.

You’re pig ignorant. All professional footballer managers will use statistics.

Jakubclaret wrote: ↑

Tue Feb 23, 2021 7:00 pm

How do you define hot when some people prefer rogan Josh’s or jalfrezis, there isn’t a right answer because everybody’s different, same as the managers the old school managers such as Neil warnock or Roy Hodgson ect wouldn’t necessarily analyse the stats compared to younger managers, the stats simply aren’t important to some people despite you believing contrary.

Absolute nonsense.


https://fmdataba.com/20/cs/Crystal+Palace/

Palace - and, therefore, Hodgson - have five or six data analysts working for them. You reckon they just sit around doing nowt ?

evensteadiereddie wrote: ↑

Tue Feb 23, 2021 7:33 pm

Absolute nonsense.


https://fmdataba.com/20/cs/Crystal+Palace/

Palace - and, therefore, Hodgson - have five or six data analysts working for them. You reckon they just sit around doing nowt ?

It’s not doing them much good then. I could easily explain palaces problems & how to rectify the shortcomings, you don’t need 6 data analysts you don’t need 1.

Talking of Barnfield, I think it was Mark Chapman being givena a tour and an interview with Dyche a while ago. Dyche pointed out all the state of the art facilities we have, including the data analysis rooms. He reckoned to be baffled by science and such like.
Like hell, Sean ! This from a bloke who apparently presented an incredibly detailed, well-planned and hard-hitting powerpoint when on interview.

Jakubclaret wrote: ↑

Tue Feb 23, 2021 7:40 pm

It’s not doing them much good then. I could easily explain palaces problems & how to rectify the shortcomings, you don’t need 6 data analysts you don’t need 1.

Go on then.
Detail how Zaha's absence is affecting the team, man by man and how defensive, midfield and attacking options have had to be changed to accommodate it giving specific examples of game play to support your view.

500 words should do it.

evensteadiereddie wrote: ↑

Tue Feb 23, 2021 7:45 pm

Go on then.
Detail how Zaha's absence is affecting the team, man by man and how defensive, midfield and attacking options have had to be changed to accommodate it giving specific examples of game play to support your view.

500 words should do it.

It’s affecting palaces ball retention as there’s no outlet, I do rate eze but he’s no Zaha, you can’t change it as he doesn’t have the personnel at his disposal so losing the attacking threat it’s a case of keeping things as compact as there can. Lots of other injury problems besides zaha & under performing players. I’m no data analyst but I’m capable of seeing glaring obvious things unlike you & others who would be reliant on data analysis & stats, the stat that palace don’t usually win without zaha isn’t necessarily down to zahas absence but it’s a contributing factor. You do not need stats or data analysis, a sharp brain a pair of decent mince pies & a stop watch & a notepad & pen & somebody watching on the touch line is what you do need.

Fishing trip proved successful sadly.

When pundits say, "X are dominating the play. They have had 70% possession", I have to laugh. Most of the possession is in their own half getting nowhere!

Jakubclaret wrote: ↑

Tue Feb 23, 2021 7:56 pm

It’s affecting palaces ball retention as there’s no outlet, I do rate eze but he’s no Zaha, you can’t change it as he doesn’t have the personnel at his disposal so losing the
attacking threat it’s a case of keeping things as compact as there can. Lots of other injury problems besides zaha & under performing players. I’m no data analyst but I’m capable of seeing glaring obvious things unlike you & others who would be reliant on data analysis & stats, the stat that palace don’t usually win without zaha isn’t necessarily down to zahas absence but it’s a contributing factor.

Oh my God.

You're making stuff up - nobody is reliant upon data analysis and stats but you have to give the players the guidance, the framework in which to work.
You say "it's a case of keeping things as compact as "there" can - no **** Sherlock. So, without being aware of the tactics and moves favoured by your opponents collectively and individually, how exactly do you do that ?
You've not mentioned the specific roles of any player, as asked, or detailed any specific tactical change , as asked, to suggest you have any idea what you're talking about. Those "other injury problems" how, exactly, have they caused problems ?
Sure, as casual observers, we can all generalise and "see the glaringly obvious things" but that is not really enough to set up a side at elite level, is it ? A Sunday morning pub side, maybe. Surely, even you can see that ?

evensteadiereddie wrote: ↑

Tue Feb 23, 2021 8:17 pm

Oh my God.

You're making stuff up - nobody is reliant upon data analysis and stats but you have to give the players the guidance, the framework in which to work.
You say "it's a case of keeping things as compact as "there" can - no **** Sherlock. So, without being aware of the tactics and moves favoured by your opponents collectively and individually, how exactly do you do that ?
You've not mentioned the specific roles of any player, as asked, or detailed any specific tactical change , as asked, to suggest you have any idea what you're talking about. Those "other injury problems" how, exactly, have they caused problems ?
Sure, as casual observers, we can all generalise and "see the glaringly obvious things" but that is not really enough to set up a side at elite level, is it ? A Sunday morning pub side, maybe. Surely, even you can see that ?

You are complicating something so simple, I’m not looking at every single game Zaha hasn’t featured & giving comprehensive accounts to what’s happened over the course of 90mins, sorry to disappoint but It wouldn’t prove or disprove anything, if you’ve ever watched football you’ll see opposing managers carrying out background research into their next opponents, palace stick with a rigid formation & usually counter attack, I could give opinions on the full 11 vs 11 last night but I don’t even rate our players on the post match threads never mind other teams, I could explain potter & Hodgsons psyche pre match & post match & go into detail on that, let’s agree to disagree, good evening.

Goals win matches not stats