Van Basten on offside.

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huw.Y.WattfromWare
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Van Basten on offside.

Post by huw.Y.WattfromWare » Wed Mar 24, 2021 10:52 am

So pleased that he is concerned about all my regular gripes on here.
Only last week I said offside should be scrapped. He is also concerned with time-wasting, haranguing of referees, etc.,
Interesting that the opinion seems to be that hockey was improved when they scrapped offside.
https://www.skysports.com/football/news ... t-surprise

Leisure
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Re: Van Basten on offside.

Post by Leisure » Wed Mar 24, 2021 11:20 am

I think that it would be a step too far for the powers that be to do away with it altogether but a change to make it that a player is offside only if there is clear daylight between the attacker and defender would be a great move.
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Re: Van Basten on offside.

Post by Quicknick » Wed Mar 24, 2021 11:24 am

You couldn't scrap offside in football. They experimented with in in 1987-88 in the Conference. I used to watch Barnet then, seeing I lived near. Lincoln were the visitors. Their free kick routine from the halfway line went like this: hammer the ball at goal, hoping for a deflection off one of the oversized strikers who parked themselves right in front of the keeper, two feet in front of goal. It was farcical.

BFCmaj
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Re: Van Basten on offside.

Post by BFCmaj » Wed Mar 24, 2021 11:26 am

Leisure wrote:
Wed Mar 24, 2021 11:20 am
I think that it would be a step too far for the powers that be to do away with it altogether but a change to make it that a player is offside only if there is clear daylight between the attacker and defender would be a great move.
The only problem with that is the arguments would then shift as to whether it was clear daylight or not. I can see it now, the VAR cameras zooming in on a tiny bit of green between two players.

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Re: Van Basten on offside.

Post by Leisure » Wed Mar 24, 2021 11:58 am

BFCmaj wrote:
Wed Mar 24, 2021 11:26 am
The only problem with that is the arguments would then shift as to whether it was clear daylight or not. I can see it now, the VAR cameras zooming in on a tiny bit of green between two players.
Possibly but surely it would easier for the assistant referee/VAR to determine daylight rather than a toenail.

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Re: Van Basten on offside.

Post by claretburns » Wed Mar 24, 2021 12:23 pm

And also with it going off daylight it would allow the chances of more goals to be scored.
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duncandisorderly
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Re: Van Basten on offside.

Post by duncandisorderly » Wed Mar 24, 2021 12:28 pm

The daylight argument is fine but we can't really have a different set of rules for whether the game is played in the afternoon or at night.
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Re: Van Basten on offside.

Post by KRBFC » Wed Mar 24, 2021 12:54 pm

my biggest gripe in football is the stop start nature of it, whistle hungry referees, weak rules that promotes minimal/no contact fouls.

I have never understood the decision to over protect goalkeepers, they're typically the biggest/tallest person on the pitch, they can use both of their hands but any kind of contact and it's a foul?

The contact from the game has slowly been sucked out of it.

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Re: Van Basten on offside.

Post by Rileybobs » Wed Mar 24, 2021 1:18 pm

Leisure wrote:
Wed Mar 24, 2021 11:58 am
Possibly but surely it would easier for the assistant referee/VAR to determine daylight rather than a toenail.
The cameras used for VAR reviews aren’t perpendicular to the last man. So how can they determine whether there is daylight between the players?

As for scrapping offside, it’s a stupid idea. Why would you want to scrap one of the key components of the game that presumably we all grew up to love?
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Re: Van Basten on offside.

Post by Ric_C » Wed Mar 24, 2021 1:29 pm

KRBFC wrote:
Wed Mar 24, 2021 12:54 pm
my biggest gripe in football is the stop start nature of it, whistle hungry referees, weak rules that promotes minimal/no contact fouls.

I have never understood the decision to over protect goalkeepers, they're typically the biggest/tallest person on the pitch, they can use both of their hands but any kind of contact and it's a foul?

The contact from the game has slowly been sucked out of it.
Because when you are a goalkeeper and you go up for the ball, you are leaving yourself unprotected, whereas attackers and defenders can use their arms as leverage or to protect themselves. I lost count of the shithouse late challenges I got as a keeper when I was younger.

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Re: Van Basten on offside.

Post by Ric_C » Wed Mar 24, 2021 1:34 pm

I certainly don't agree with removing offside completely, it's a non-starter. I don't agree with the daylight rule either.

Apparently they are trialing some kind of AI enabled offside system which will send a signal to the lino in real-time. If they could combine that with a greater margin of error (bit like the umpires call in cricket) then this could be the way forward.

As it stands it is just horrible, and until you have that moment elation swiped from you, you are unaware of how horrible it is. Ours was the Wood disallowed goal vs West Ham. Don't think I've celebrated a goal properly since.

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Re: Van Basten on offside.

Post by Leisure » Wed Mar 24, 2021 1:43 pm

duncandisorderly wrote:
Wed Mar 24, 2021 12:28 pm
The daylight argument is fine but we can't really have a different set of rules for whether the game is played in the afternoon or at night.
I'm sure that they use floodlights for evening games! :D

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Re: Van Basten on offside.

Post by Leisure » Wed Mar 24, 2021 1:47 pm

Rileybobs wrote:
Wed Mar 24, 2021 1:18 pm
The cameras used for VAR reviews aren’t perpendicular to the last man. So how can they determine whether there is daylight between the players?
If there is a gap. At present they can determine if a player has a toe-nail offside, so I'm pretty sure that a gap would be identifiable.

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Re: Van Basten on offside.

Post by Leisure » Wed Mar 24, 2021 1:51 pm

Ric_C wrote:
Wed Mar 24, 2021 1:34 pm
Apparently they are trialing some kind of AI enabled offside system which will send a signal to the lino in real-time. If they could combine that with a greater margin of error (bit like the umpires call in cricket) then this could be the way forward.
But if they were going to allow a greater margin of error, why just not leave it to the officials and accept that on occasions may be errors made?
Last edited by Leisure on Wed Mar 24, 2021 3:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Van Basten on offside.

Post by bfcmik » Wed Mar 24, 2021 1:53 pm

Ric_C wrote:
Wed Mar 24, 2021 1:29 pm
Because when you are a goalkeeper and you go up for the ball, you are leaving yourself unprotected, whereas attackers and defenders can use their arms as leverage or to protect themselves. I lost count of the shithouse late challenges I got as a keeper when I was younger.
As a striker I lost count of the number of shithouse late challenges I made, and most certainly received, from goalkeepers and defenders when I was younger. 'Accidental' misplaced punches at the ball that, unfortunately of course, hit me on the head; 'accidental' knee in the nuts or stomach when jumping for the ball; 'accidental' landing on my feet or, if possible, raking my knees or shins as they came down from a jump - it was all 'part of the game' and if you moaned about it you were not a proper bloke so revenge was very much your only option.

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Re: Van Basten on offside.

Post by Rileybobs » Wed Mar 24, 2021 2:07 pm

Leisure wrote:
Wed Mar 24, 2021 1:47 pm
If there is a gap. At present they can determine if a player has a toe-nail offside, so I'm pretty sure that a gap would be identifiable.
It's much more difficult to ascertain whether there is daylight between players than to determine which player has a particular body in a more advanced position. 'Daylight' is just adding even more ambiguity into the equation and would undoubtedly lead to even more contention.

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Re: Van Basten on offside.

Post by Ric_C » Wed Mar 24, 2021 2:08 pm

Leisure wrote:
Wed Mar 24, 2021 1:51 pm
But if they were going to allow a greater margin of error, why just not leave it to the officials and accept that there on occasions may be errors made?
Tbh if I had my way VAR would be scrapped and only used for goal line technology and "extreme howlers". That is why it was initially brought in, not to dissect if Chris Woods' nose is offside.
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Ashingtonclaret46
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Re: Van Basten on offside.

Post by Ashingtonclaret46 » Wed Mar 24, 2021 3:36 pm

Ric_C wrote:
Wed Mar 24, 2021 2:08 pm
Tbh if I had my way VAR would be scrapped and only used for goal line technology and "extreme howlers". That is why it was initially brought in, not to dissect if Chris Woods' nose is offside.
Sadly, the quest for perfection in football will continue at the top level whilst the lower levels will just continue to rely on match officials who will continue to be criticised by all and sundry, even though they try to officiate fairly and give what they see without the aid of anything apart from Specsavers.

Remember that it is FIFA who would have to give the word for VAR to be scrapped and they are working on advancing its use rather than scrapping it.

huw.Y.WattfromWare
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Re: Van Basten on offside.

Post by huw.Y.WattfromWare » Wed Mar 24, 2021 5:00 pm

Ashingtonclaret46 wrote:
Wed Mar 24, 2021 3:36 pm
match officials who will continue to be criticised by all and sundry, even though they try to officiate fairly and give what they see without the aid of anything apart from Specsavers.
Some wonderful reffing in the EFL last Saturday.
Cross from the left, player slides in but misses ball, player runs in at far post and pokes it home. Flag goes up for offside. Comms say the ref has over-ruled him. I go ballistic, how can he see that from outside the penalty area. Transpires the lino had thought the first player had touched the cross, which would have made the scorer offside. He hadn’t and the ref had a chat with his lino and they reached the correct decision.

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Re: Van Basten on offside.

Post by Quickenthetempo » Wed Mar 24, 2021 5:21 pm

What about using VAR in the offside call to see if the forward actually gained an advantage by being offside?

If he's goal hanging give him offside but if it's a couple of inches and the forward is standing with his back to goal to trap it, then there's no real advantage. So let the game flow.

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Re: Van Basten on offside.

Post by Ashingtonclaret46 » Wed Mar 24, 2021 6:56 pm

huw.Y.WattfromWare wrote:
Wed Mar 24, 2021 5:00 pm
Some wonderful reffing in the EFL last Saturday.
Cross from the left, player slides in but misses ball, player runs in at far post and pokes it home. Flag goes up for offside. Comms say the ref has over-ruled him. I go ballistic, how can he see that from outside the penalty area. Transpires the lino had thought the first player had touched the cross, which would have made the scorer offside. He hadn’t and the ref had a chat with his lino and they reached the correct decision.
How did they manage to do that without the aid of VAR?
Oh Yes, I forgot, the same way that I used to do before I saw sense and packed up officiating. We never managed to get through any game and be 100% correct, however, I never managed that as a player either and nor does anyone else who plays or officiates ----they never will because we are not robots

Vintage Claret
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Re: Van Basten on offside.

Post by Vintage Claret » Wed Mar 24, 2021 8:32 pm

Why not make it if any portion of the attacking players body is onside when VAR draw the line then it's not offside, rather than disallowing goals because a players nose or big toe might have been offside?

Ok there could still be the odd marginal one the other way in that scenario but I'm sure there wouldn't be anything like as many 'split-hair' decisions that have ruled out many a seemingly good goal for probably every team in the EPL including ourselves.

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Re: Van Basten on offside.

Post by JohnMac » Wed Mar 24, 2021 9:11 pm

Use the feet only as a measure and no lines drawn on VAR, only offside when it's clear and obvious to the eye only. Forget other scoring parts of the body and ridiculous 't shirt' lines. Let's get back to rewarding diving headers, well timed runs and flicks etc.

VAR is sucking the life out of the game and turning it into geometry for athletes who can kick or head a ball. Is it down to the money involved, the bigger clubs or a manipulation by TV to run the game?

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Re: Van Basten on offside.

Post by HunterST_BFC » Wed Mar 24, 2021 9:42 pm

Offside should be measured from one point - the head.

Easier to manage.
Quicker to review.
Still allows some advantage to the attacking player (in most cases due to player movement).

VAR should be replayed once slow-mo then just full speed to establish whether a decision is a clear and obveous error. 3 times max.

Offside flags should go up asap following a pass rather than wait until player touches ball or moves to ball.

Simple easy changes.



And all this hoping at penalties, screaming, falling over etc - Bans.

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Re: Van Basten on offside.

Post by ClaretBrewer » Thu Mar 25, 2021 11:10 am

Football could learn a lot from hockey... Rolling subs except at certain set pieces, a green card as a warning and a yellow for a sin bin, then red for example.

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