Ashley Westwood Appreciation

[jojomk1]

The top performing English midfielders over the last 3 years have been Westwood, Grealish and McNeil - look it up!

That guy Southgate knows nothing

[Herts Clarets]

After watching that today, there is a clear reason why he makes so many forward passes. His average position when he picks up the ball is 2 yards in front of Ben Mee. Its borderline impossible for a pass to be anything but forwards. Sadly today as with most games he created nothing.

[whiffa]

After watching that today, there is a clear reason why he makes so many forward passes. His average position when he picks up the ball is 2 yards in front of Ben Mee. Its borderline impossible for a pass to be anything but forwards. Sadly today as with most games he created nothing.

I mean to be fair it was his forward pass to Wood that helped create our goal - but after that moment, he didn't complete a single decent cross/forward pass that I can remember.

[superdimitri]

I mean to be fair it was his forward pass to Wood that helped create our goal - but after that moment, he didn't complete a single decent cross/forward pass that I can remember.

To be fair you or I could have picked out that pass. Was awful today. Not his biggest fan personally. Too much cut it back to Westwood to play a deep cross.

Happens about 20 times a game and 99% of the time comes to nothing.

[Bordeauxclaret]

Dreadful today. The amount of times he just did the old hit and hope was ridiculous.

[ksrclaret]

Personally, I think he’s had his day with us.

He’s been really good in several matches over the years, but his blind hit and hopes are becoming tedious. It’s happening every time he’s on the ball. Needs replacing.

[jojomk1]

Dreadful today. The amount of times he just did the old hit and hope was ridiculous.

He doesn't even look to see whether we have a man in the right position, it's just head down and stand up a cross hoping for the best

But he takes corners and free kicks and is one of the top central midfielders outside of the top six sides

[taio]

Dreadful today. The amount of times he just did the old hit and hope was ridiculous.

He had the best passing accuracy out of both sides.

[taio]

Dreadful today. The amount of times he just did the old hit and hope was ridiculous.

Bit more detail on Westwood:

- 3 key passes
- 70 passes
- 86% pass completion
- 14 crosses.

Newcastle:

Most key passes - 3 players X 2 key passes
Most passes - Shelvey 57 (pass completion 63%)
Highest pass completion - Gayle and Saint-Maximin 83% (12 and 6 passes respectively)
Most crosses - Ritchie 7

[boyyanno]

Not saying that Westwood played well today but when I read threads like this I remember that some posters didn't rate Dean Marney or David Jones and then find them much easier to ignore.

I see Westwood as an absolute key component in our side.

[Top Claret]

He was decent today although he hit some poor crosses into the box. He plays on his own in centre midfield and gets little help from Brownhill other than breaking play down.

With Cork getting older and Brownhill not good enough, a quality central midfielder is priority in the next window

[taio]

Not saying that Westwood played well today but when I read threads like this I remember that some posters didn't rate Dean Marney or David Jones and then find them much easier to ignore.

I see Westwood as an absolute key component in our side.

Unfortunately some people see what they want to see. A further stat: 13 long balls of which 10 were accurate - a very high 77%. Good hitting and hoping

[DCWat]

Personally, I think he’s had his day with us.

He’s been really good in several matches over the years, but his blind hit and hopes are becoming tedious. It’s happening every time he’s on the ball. Needs replacing.

If he was simply hitting and hoping, he wouldn’t have delivered what he has for us. Options or no options, I’m pretty certain that Dyche wouldn’t stand for a player not following instructions.

For blind hit and hopes, I think you could write quick balls into an area that the forwards have have been told to expect balls to come to.

Westwood is a good, solid professional. Personally I would rather see him as a back up, recruitment permitting but I think it’s unfair to suggest he’s just blindly hitting and hoping.

[elwaclaret]

Ashley Westwood has been a revelation to the player Aston Villa thought they were selling us. I like both Westwood and Brownhill, I’m just still not sure they can play together. If Stephens cannot be relied upon to shore up the midfield once a team starts hitting us on the break with pace... then I do not understand why he sits on the bench, for me he should be pushing to start as Cork’s backup, while Westwood/Brownhill would be interchangeable as instinctively forward thinking midfielders.

Westwood has struggled like the rest of the team this season, but this reaction against him reminds me of... Deary, Marney, Jones and Even Cork over the years.... Some Burnley fans always pick the top midfielder to illustrate when things are not going our way. It is lazy and lacks any understanding.

[Bordeauxclaret]

Not saying that Westwood played well today but when I read threads like this I remember that some posters didn't rate Dean Marney or David Jones and then find them much easier to ignore.

I see Westwood as an absolute key component in our side.

I think he’s a key component as well generally. I just thought he was awful today.

[ksrclaret]

If he was simply hitting and hoping, he wouldn’t have delivered what he has for us. Options or no options, I’m pretty certain that Dyche wouldn’t stand for a player not following instructions.

For blind hit and hopes, I think you could write quick balls into an area that the forwards have have been told to expect balls to come to.

Westwood is a good, solid professional. Personally I would rather see him as a back up, recruitment permitting but I think it’s unfair to suggest he’s just blindly hitting and hoping.

I don't doubt he is following instructions. He's just limited in the way he can carry them out. When I refer to him blindly hitting and hoping, I am thinking about the sheer number of times he simply whacks it forward without looking where it's going and without aiming it at anyone in particular.

Needs to be back up as you say.

[Rileybobs]

He was frustrating at times today but our best moments, and there were quite a lot, started with his passes out of midfield. In the first half our strikers were getting on the end of most of his balls. The plan started to fail when Newcastle got ahead and put everyone behind the ball, and that is something that we’ve struggled to create against for a long time. But maybe he should have recognised this and mixed up his approach.

He also put a lot of very accurate corners in today, but unfortunately the game plan to drop the corner onto the goalkeeper’s head didn’t lead to anything, and also probably should have led to a change of plan.

[Rileybobs]

I don't doubt he is following instructions. He's just limited in the way he can carry them out. When I refer to him blindly hitting and hoping, I am thinking about the sheer number of times he simply whacks it forward without looking where it's going and without aiming it at anyone in particular.

Needs to be back up as you say.

I think it’s unfair to say that he whacks it forward. The balls into the channel or over the top tend to be very accurate, and the fact that he doesn’t look up before playing them takes a fair amount skill and work on the training ground with the forwards.

[superdimitri]

He doesn't even look to see whether we have a man in the right position, it's just head down and stand up a cross hoping for the best

But he takes corners and free kicks and is one of the top central midfielders outside of the top six sides

Its exactly this that is the problem imo. He's had some success doing it in the past but you can't aimlessly keep trying the same thing when it doesn't work the first 5 times. Especially against a side using 3 centre halves when we only have one striker playing who's good in the air.

I think he should mix things up a bit more. Today his set pieces were also pretty poor, not in the sense he didn't put the ball into a dangerous place, but more he put it in the same place every time. Far too predictable and easy to defend against.

I get sick of the deep crosses and wasting possession, even when we were ahead he was doing it. In fact it was one of these specials that resulted in the breakaway for their first goal. Sometimes you just gotta recognise your limitations as a footballer and go back to basics. If he'd have passed it around on the floor more things may have been very different.

But you can also hold Dyche accountable, because its up to him to ask him to stop doing it so much when its wasteful.

[KRBFC]

The thing about Westwood which has, I believe become forgotten over time, is that when he came he wasn't intended to be first choice. He was there to back up Defour who couldn't really do 90 minutes and was always liable to pick up an injury . It wasn't long after he arrived though that Defour got sidelined more or less permanently and Westwood found himself first pick every week. Also don't forget that most Villa fans would have gladly driven him to the Turf for free as they weren't too impressed! I think all things considered, especially for the money, we've done pretty well!

You’re forgetting recent history, most of Defours time here, Defour wasn’t first choice. I even remember Dyche shifting him onto the left wing. Defour was a fantastic player, bags of talent but Dyche wasn’t that keen.

[KRBFC]

Hard to judge CMs as it's such a diverse role but IMO...

Rice - Agreed
Soucek - Disagree, depends what you look for in a midfielder. Goal threat from set pieces and a battler but contributes very little in build up.
Phillips - Agreed
McGinn - No, looks a shadow of himself post injury so far
Douglas Luiz - No, potential but is currently bang average
Allan - No, injuries really taken their toll, looks nothing like the player he was in Serie A a few years ago
Doucoure - Disagree, again personal preference he's a goal threat and a good physical presence/presser but again contributes very little to build up
Davies - No, potential though
Anguissa - Agreed
Gallagher - No, potential though
Bissouma - Personally think he's really overrated but I'm in a minority there so could give you that one.
Hojberg - Is at a big 6 club
Romeu - No

My personal top 5 would be Tielemans, Anguissa, Rice, Phillips and Westwood. But as said, it comes down to what you look for in a midfielder, whether you prefer goal threat or defensive ability.

Some of what you’re smoking please, Soucek is a huge reason West Ham are in the top 4, he absolutely walks into our side and it’s not even a debate.

Douglas Luis was comfortably Villas 2nd best player last season, the fans there love him.

Doucoure on one leg gets into our side over Westwood.

There’s a reason most of that list are £20M+ footballers, this is one of the stupidest posts I have seen in a long time.

[KRBFC]

The top performing English midfielders over the last 3 years have been Westwood, Grealish and McNeil - look it up!

Aye not Mason Mount or Rice then

[Mattster]

Some of what you’re smoking please, Soucek is a huge reason West Ham are in the top 4, he absolutely walks into our side and it’s not even a debate.

Douglas Luis was comfortably Villas 2nd best player last season, the fans there love him.

Doucoure on one leg gets into our side over Westwood.

There’s a reason most of that list are £20M+ footballers, this is one of the stupidest posts I have seen in a long time.

I would absolutely love you to back that up with some facts, you'll definitely struggle on the Douglas Luiz one if you take a few minutes to check Villa Talk's 300+ page thread on him, this one tickles me given the obvious link

DL.png (44.84 KiB) Viewed 2453 times

I can just feel the love...

I don't deny Soucek is a good player and a big part of West Ham's success but my point was he is not a midfielder that is much of a passer. Ranking a top 5 is pretty hard for central midfielders as there are so many different types of midfielder (as I said).

Soucek is a massive goal threat and a good defender due to his size/presence, a passer he certainly is not - he's in the bottom 5% of all midfielder in the Top 5 leagues for pass completion, bottom 10% for progressive passes and bottom 13% for passes attempted - so my point that he "contributes very little in the build up" is based on fact.

[Mattster]

You’re forgetting recent history, most of Defours time here, Defour wasn’t first choice. I even remember Dyche shifting him onto the left wing. Defour was a fantastic player, bags of talent but Dyche wasn’t that keen.

Keep those facts coming...

When he was fit he was first choice, like the 24 starts from a possible 24 in the 17/18 season. When he was nursing injuries or recovering from injuries he was generally on the bench, making some sub appearances.

Even if you don't believe his periods on the bench were fitness related, of the times he was in the matchday squad (ie. not injured) he started 46 games of a possible 62, or basically 3/4 of the games - but sure, "most" of the time he wasn't first choice

[superdimitri]

Unfortunately some people see what they want to see. A further stat: 13 long balls of which 10 were accurate - a very high 77%. Good hitting and hoping

And his crossing? It was that that was hit and hope.
Usual move. Gudmundsson. Lowton. Westwood. Cross from deep.

Not a question of seeing what anyone wants to see. We're all Burnley fans who want to see our players play well. If they play poorly they rightly deserve criticism. If they play well they deserve praise.

[Mattster]

And his crossing? It was that that was hit and hope.
Usual move. Gudmundsson. Lowton. Westwood. Cross from deep.

4 from 14. Which made him our most accurate crosser (apart from Tarkowski who completed 1 from 1).

[jojomk1]

4 from 14 meaning what ?

He successfully completed 4 crosses out of 14 attempts - 29%

If those are the stats you mean I would rather he didn't bother as he would have surely been the most successful crosser for Newcastle

Or, if he successfully made 4 crosses out of the whole 14 we completed how many attempts did he have ?

[SalisburyClaret]

Aye not Mason Mount or Rice then

Why do you have a problem when the facts show our players are performing well? Or do you prefer the opinions of Pundits - they’re not the same as facts

Mount - good stats, about the same as Westwood but Mount is often played as a forward

Rice - appalling stats, has not produced half of what Westwood has produced. He’s good at pointing though

[Newcastleclaret93]

Why do you have a problem when the facts show our players are performing well? Or do you prefer the opinions of Pundits - they’re not the same as facts

Mount - good stats, about the same as Westwood but Mount is often played as a forward

Rice - appalling stats, has not produced half of what Westwood has produced. He’s good at pointing though

Are you suggesting that Westwood is as good as Mount or Rice?

[milkcrate_mosh]

Last season the average rate of completing crosses was just over 18%, no-one in the premier league is averaging more than 2.5 completed crosses every 90 minutes. If almost 1 in 3 hitting and getting 4 successful crosses in a game is aimless hoofing what is everyone else doing?

[SalisburyClaret]

Are you suggesting that Westwood is as good as Mount or Rice?

You’ve missed the point - the discussion is about stats - not being better. The stats clearly show that Westwood is more productive

[superdimitri]

So yep, 4 from 14 yet he kept doing it time and time again. I'd like to see him play some more incisive passes on the floor (such as his pass to Wood for the goal), or just keep the ball and prize an opportunity open rather than the usual deep cross in the box. Especially if we aren't playing both Barnes and Wood.

You have to adapt how you play, and he's not doing that (perhaps Dyche also?) it was clear the only way we were going to score against Newcastle was a ball behind their defence or a cross from the byline but Westy just kept pinning balls to their 3 centre halves heads.

We are very limited when it comes to how we put pressure on teams when losing. Teams know we will play even more deep crosses and long balls and often bring on an extra centre half to defend a lead (if they aren't playing with 3 already).

[BurnleyFC]

Westwood being better than Shelvey was a good ‘un, but Westwood being better than Soucek is just priceless.

[claretcarrot93]

Mental that people would have Westwood over Soucek/Rice and Mount.

He has been a great player for us but has been pretty poor most of this season

[Mattster]

Last season the average rate of completing crosses was just over 18%, no-one in the premier league is averaging more than 2.5 completed crosses every 90 minutes. If almost 1 in 3 hitting and getting 4 successful crosses in a game is aimless hoofing what is everyone else doing?

Amazing how people see what they want/expect to see isn't it?

[KRBFC]

I would absolutely love you to back that up with some facts, you'll definitely struggle on the Douglas Luiz one if you take a few minutes to check Villa Talk's 300+ page thread on him, this one tickles me given the obvious link
DL.png

I can just feel the love...

I don't deny Soucek is a good player and a big part of West Ham's success but my point was he is not a midfielder that is much of a passer. Ranking a top 5 is pretty hard for central midfielders as there are so many different types of midfielder (as I said).

Soucek is a massive goal threat and a good defender due to his size/presence, a passer he certainly is not - he's in the bottom 5% of all midfielder in the Top 5 leagues for pass completion, bottom 10% for progressive passes and bottom 13% for passes attempted - so my point that he "contributes very little in the build up" is based on fact.

When have stats ever mattered that deeply for midfield players? this thread here proves why stats are stupid. You can twist and manipulate any stats to make your point. When have midfielders ability ever been ranked on pass attempt stats? Westwood is better than Soucek because Westwood completes more backwards passes? and attempts more passes? How about the stuff that matters, how many goals does Soucek have?

[KRBFC]

I don't know why I'm even entertaining this troll, not even the most delusional of Burnley fan can believe Westwood is a top midfielder in Europe or top 5 in the PL. Westwood isn't even fit to lace Joao Moutinho's left boot.

[KRBFC]

Why do you have a problem when the facts show our players are performing well? Or do you prefer the opinions of Pundits - they’re not the same as facts

Mount - good stats, about the same as Westwood but Mount is often played as a forward

Rice - appalling stats, has not produced half of what Westwood has produced. He’s good at pointing though

because stats are nonsense, the true test is the eye test.

[KRBFC]

You’ve missed the point - the discussion is about stats - not being better. The stats clearly show that Westwood is more productive

Mount has 6x more goals than Westwood this season and 2x more assists, how do the stats clearly show Westwood is more productive?

[superdimitri]

I give up lol. The same people pointing fingers are the ones who are only seeing what they want to hear. Not the other way round lol.
Westwood one of the best in the league? Give me a break.

[Mattster]

When have stats ever mattered that deeply for midfield players? this thread here proves why stats are stupid. You can twist and manipulate any stats to make your point. When have midfielders ability ever been ranked on pass attempt stats? Westwood is better than Soucek because Westwood completes more backwards passes? and attempts more passes? How about the stuff that matters, how many goals does Soucek have?

It's pretty simple (so I can see why you're struggling), for me it really depends on what you're looking for from a midfielder. If you base rating central midfielders purely on goals scored then Soucek is a better midfielder than Kevin De Bruyne. Which obviously he's not.

It's not just that Westwood attempts more passes than Soucek. He attempts more forward, sideways and backwards passes. He attempts significantly more difficult passes, more frequently yet loses possession with the same frequency. You focused on passes attempted when the more important figure was the pass completion, 95% of midfielders in the Top 5 leagues have a better pass completion than Soucek.

Put simply, Soucek plays easier passes but fails to complete them just as often as Westwood fails to complete much more threatening and difficult passes.

You also say stats don't matter yet focus on the goals scored, which is ultimately a stat.

I've said it plenty, Soucek is very good as a goal threat (generally at set pieces) and at defending in/around his own area, between both boxes he contributes next to nothing. People in this thread are saying Westwood loses the ball too much, Soucek loses the ball just as much (23% of the time vs 25%) but does so whilst attempting fewer and much easier passes.

You prefer your midfielders to score goals, I prefer midfielders to link defence to attack, to create chances. Truth is you probably need both which is why it's difficult to pick a "top x" as there's so many different roles for a midfielder.

because stats are nonsense, the true test is the eye test.

I think that, if anything, this thread has shown the eye test alone isn't all that given Westwood was getting slated for aimless long balls vs NUFC (yet had 77% accuracy whilst the EPL average is 66%) and aimless crossing (yet had 29% accuracy whilst the EPL average is 18%). You need both.

[arise_sir_charge]

Stats can say what they like, my eyes tell me that Westwood has been crap for a good few weeks and is probably in need of a rest.

[claretspice]

Is there actually too much disagreement on Westwood when people strip back the hyperbole?

Those stats show what he does for us - he's good at moving the ball quickly, often forwards and sometimes incisively, and he whips a good ball in. He's mobile and tenacious and presses fairly aggressively (although not always as effectively as Brownhill in particular).

But what those stats would also seem to show, and what was borne out I think on Sunday, is that sometimes he's not the most composed in possession, and he can be a bit frenetic. Perhaps that's partly instruction, but it reflects why his pass completion percentage is relatively poor. He's also occasionally caught out of position defensively.

In short, Westwood has been moulded by Dyche into a replacement for/upgrade on Dean Marney. He's at his best alongside someone who can be the David Jones to his Dean Marney - such as Cork; someone who keeps it simple, knows when to play a pass that takes the sting out of the game, makes sure there aren't too many gaps in front of the back four, etc. (it's hard to imagine us conceding the second goal on Sunday with Cork on the field). The problem we have when he's alongside Brownhill is that between them there's a bit of a lack of calmness. We tend to either be in control of a game (not necessarily dominating, but if we're defending, doing so on our terms) or on the ropes and looking like we might fold at any moment - we rarely look in control even when the other team have momentum. And equally when we're chasing a game we can be guilty of forcing the game to quickly, rather than probing (it's no accident that against Aston Villa, Cork came on at half time). This team doesn't manipulate the ball like the Defour/Cork team could, or even like one pairing Cork with Brownhill OR Westwood would. It relies on McNeil coming off his wing to provide that sort of guile.

So Westwood is a good player, a player who with the right partner can play in a team that finishes 10th in the Premier League, and who without the right partner probably rightly belongs in a team just keeping their necks above the relegation battle. Which is exactly what he's been for us.

[SalisburyClaret]

Mount has 6x more goals than Westwood this season and 2x more assists, how do the stats clearly show Westwood is more productive?

We were discussing PL stats over 3 seasons, please try and keep up.

Mount 13 goals, 9 assists. He is an attacking midfielder who also plays as a forward. Market value 54m

Westwood 5 goals and 15 assists. He is a central/defensive midfielder in the team you endlessly criticise. Market value 4.5m

Bear in mind that Mount plays in one of the most expensive teams ever assembled so his chances of scoring or creating are massively increased. If you can’t see how how much Westwood is over-achieving then I’d be inclined to rip up that Mensa application

[jojomk1]

If you can’t see how how much Westwood is over-achieving then I’d be inclined to rip up that Mensa application

I really do think you need to see a doctor before it's too late

[DCWat]

Is there actually too much disagreement on Westwood when people strip back the hyperbole?

Those stats show what he does for us - he's good at moving the ball quickly, often forwards and sometimes incisively, and he whips a good ball in. He's mobile and tenacious and presses fairly aggressively (although not always as effectively as Brownhill in particular).

But what those stats would also seem to show, and what was borne out I think on Sunday, is that sometimes he's not the most composed in possession, and he can be a bit frenetic. Perhaps that's partly instruction, but it reflects why his pass completion percentage is relatively poor. He's also occasionally caught out of position defensively.

In short, Westwood has been moulded by Dyche into a replacement for/upgrade on Dean Marney. He's at his best alongside someone who can be the David Jones to his Dean Marney - such as Cork; someone who keeps it simple, knows when to play a pass that takes the sting out of the game, makes sure there aren't too many gaps in front of the back four, etc. (it's hard to imagine us conceding the second goal on Sunday with Cork on the field). The problem we have when he's alongside Brownhill is that between them there's a bit of a lack of calmness. We tend to either be in control of a game (not necessarily dominating, but if we're defending, doing so on our terms) or on the ropes and looking like we might fold at any moment - we rarely look in control even when the other team have momentum. And equally when we're chasing a game we can be guilty of forcing the game to quickly, rather than probing (it's no accident that against Aston Villa, Cork came on at half time). This team doesn't manipulate the ball like the Defour/Cork team could, or even like one pairing Cork with Brownhill OR Westwood would. It relies on McNeil coming off his wing to provide that sort of guile.

So Westwood is a good player, a player who with the right partner can play in a team that finishes 10th in the Premier League, and who without the right partner probably rightly belongs in a team just keeping their necks above the relegation battle. Which is exactly what he's been for us.

How many times have we seen Cork alongside Brownhill? That may actually benefit Brownhill and allow us to see a bit more of what he’s about.

[Quickenthetempo]

Westwood getting the ball forward early is vital for us as we have no pace in the side. It's our main way of catching the opposition out.

[jrgbfc]

Are people seriously suggesting they'd take Westwood over Soucek or Rice? Let's face it if it wasn't for us taking a chance on him he'd have probably spent the last few years playing in the league below.

[superdimitri]

It's pretty simple (so I can see why you're struggling), for me it really depends on what you're looking for from a midfielder. If you base rating central midfielders purely on goals scored then Soucek is a better midfielder than Kevin De Bruyne. Which obviously he's not.

It's not just that Westwood attempts more passes than Soucek. He attempts more forward, sideways and backwards passes. He attempts significantly more difficult passes, more frequently yet loses possession with the same frequency. You focused on passes attempted when the more important figure was the pass completion, 95% of midfielders in the Top 5 leagues have a better pass completion than Soucek.

Put simply, Soucek plays easier passes but fails to complete them just as often as Westwood fails to complete much more threatening and difficult passes.

You also say stats don't matter yet focus on the goals scored, which is ultimately a stat.

I've said it plenty, Soucek is very good as a goal threat (generally at set pieces) and at defending in/around his own area, between both boxes he contributes next to nothing. People in this thread are saying Westwood loses the ball too much, Soucek loses the ball just as much (23% of the time vs 25%) but does so whilst attempting fewer and much easier passes.

You prefer your midfielders to score goals, I prefer midfielders to link defence to attack, to create chances. Truth is you probably need both which is why it's difficult to pick a "top x" as there's so many different roles for a midfielder.



I think that, if anything, this thread has shown the eye test alone isn't all that given Westwood was getting slated for aimless long balls vs NUFC (yet had 77% accuracy whilst the EPL average is 66%) and aimless crossing (yet had 29% accuracy whilst the EPL average is 18%). You need both.

Because his aimless long balls were crosses not passes. No one said anything about long balls, just that he kept hoofing it in the box. You're taking stats and reading them the wrong way around.

Quit with the personal digs too. Really makes you look bad. I don't get why everyone can't just have a healthy debate on here without taking snipes at one another.

[KRBFC]

It's pretty simple (so I can see why you're struggling), for me it really depends on what you're looking for from a midfielder. If you base rating central midfielders purely on goals scored then Soucek is a better midfielder than Kevin De Bruyne. Which obviously he's not.

It's not just that Westwood attempts more passes than Soucek. He attempts more forward, sideways and backwards passes. He attempts significantly more difficult passes, more frequently yet loses possession with the same frequency. You focused on passes attempted when the more important figure was the pass completion, 95% of midfielders in the Top 5 leagues have a better pass completion than Soucek.

Put simply, Soucek plays easier passes but fails to complete them just as often as Westwood fails to complete much more threatening and difficult passes.

You also say stats don't matter yet focus on the goals scored, which is ultimately a stat.

I've said it plenty, Soucek is very good as a goal threat (generally at set pieces) and at defending in/around his own area, between both boxes he contributes next to nothing. People in this thread are saying Westwood loses the ball too much, Soucek loses the ball just as much (23% of the time vs 25%) but does so whilst attempting fewer and much easier passes.

You prefer your midfielders to score goals, I prefer midfielders to link defence to attack, to create chances. Truth is you probably need both which is why it's difficult to pick a "top x" as there's so many different roles for a midfielder.



I think that, if anything, this thread has shown the eye test alone isn't all that given Westwood was getting slated for aimless long balls vs NUFC (yet had 77% accuracy whilst the EPL average is 66%) and aimless crossing (yet had 29% accuracy whilst the EPL average is 18%). You need both.

but this is about you saying Westwood is a better player than Soucek because Westwood has a higher pass attempt/accuracy %. When has that stat ever been really relevant? Westwood's whole game is passing. I have never ever seen anyone claim X player is better than Y because of the pass attempt stat