Ashley Westwood Appreciation

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KRBFC
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Re: Ashley Westwood Appreciation

Post by KRBFC » Wed Apr 14, 2021 12:55 am

SalisburyClaret wrote:
Tue Apr 13, 2021 1:20 pm
We were discussing PL stats over 3 seasons, please try and keep up.

Mount 13 goals, 9 assists. He is an attacking midfielder who also plays as a forward. Market value 54m

Westwood 5 goals and 15 assists. He is a central/defensive midfielder in the team you endlessly criticise. Market value 4.5m

Bear in mind that Mount plays in one of the most expensive teams ever assembled so his chances of scoring or creating are massively increased. If you can’t see how how much Westwood is over-achieving then I’d be inclined to rip up that Mensa application
Now we are getting Mount v Westwood :lol: :lol: :lol: :shock: :shock:

Mount hasn't been getting game time at Chelsea for 3 years btw

jojomk1
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Re: Ashley Westwood Appreciation

Post by jojomk1 » Wed Apr 14, 2021 6:27 am

KRBFC wrote:
Wed Apr 14, 2021 12:55 am
Now we are getting Mount v Westwood :lol: :lol: :lol: :shock: :shock:
I know what you mean

Mount isn't fit to lace the boots of our Ashley :oops:

Burnley1989
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Re: Ashley Westwood Appreciation

Post by Burnley1989 » Wed Apr 14, 2021 6:43 am

KRBFC wrote:
Wed Apr 14, 2021 12:55 am
Now we are getting Mount v Westwood :lol: :lol: :lol: :shock: :shock:

Mount hasn't been getting game time at Chelsea for 3 years btw
:lol: :lol: :lol:

His stats are better than Paul Scholes over the last 3 years as well

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Re: Ashley Westwood Appreciation

Post by nyclaret » Wed Apr 14, 2021 7:05 am

A list of English centre midfielders off the top of my head who are better than Ashley Westwood (in no particular order):

Declan Rice
Mason Mount
Jude Bellingham
Jordan Henderson
Kalvin Phillips
James Ward-Prowse
Harry Winks
Tom Davies
Alex Oxlade-Chamberlain
Ross Barkley
Curtis Jones
Jack Cork

Mattster
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Re: Ashley Westwood Appreciation

Post by Mattster » Wed Apr 14, 2021 7:28 am

KRBFC wrote:
Wed Apr 14, 2021 12:54 am
but this is about you saying Westwood is a better player than Soucek because Westwood has a higher pass attempt/accuracy %. When has that stat ever been really relevant? Westwood's whole game is passing. I have never ever seen anyone claim X player is better than Y because of the pass attempt stat :lol:
No, I'm saying he plays significantly more difficult and threatening passes. Try to keep up.

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Re: Ashley Westwood Appreciation

Post by Mattster » Wed Apr 14, 2021 7:36 am

superdimitri wrote:
Tue Apr 13, 2021 11:15 pm
Because his aimless long balls were crosses not passes. No one said anything about long balls, just that he kept hoofing it in the box. You're taking stats and reading them the wrong way around.

Quit with the personal digs too. Really makes you look bad. I don't get why everyone can't just have a healthy debate on here without taking snipes at one another.
There's multiple "blind hit and hope" posts above, they don't mention crosses specifically. But even so, it would still be a blot against the old eye test as his crossing accuracy was nearly double the EPL averagr against Newcastle. And as pointed out in the article he was recently highlighted as being the 2nd most accurate crosser in the league (after Lowton).

And in terms of the digs, I'm simply returning the tone received.

superdimitri
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Re: Ashley Westwood Appreciation

Post by superdimitri » Wed Apr 14, 2021 9:39 am

Mattster wrote:
Wed Apr 14, 2021 7:36 am
There's multiple "blind hit and hope" posts above, they don't mention crosses specifically. But even so, it would still be a blot against the old eye test as his crossing accuracy was nearly double the EPL averagr against Newcastle. And as pointed out in the article he was recently highlighted as being the 2nd most accurate crosser in the league (after Lowton).

And in terms of the digs, I'm simply returning the tone received.
Two wrongs don't make a right. If someone takes a personal dig at you, report it. If you respond you'll only end up in a pointless fight. I honestly don't understand the hatred here. I see another bully has joined the party and yet another goes on my ignore list.

Anyway, that aside I don't dispute Westwood is a good crosser of the ball, just that he was particularly poor against Newcastle.

Of course stats tell a nice story but you can make all the metrics up in the world and still it comes down to results. There are attributes in players that makes players top class that also reduces their stats or success rates.

That's why Westwood tends to rank highly and that's what makes it frustrating. It's not about how well he can sometimes boink it on Woods head when he's facing away from goal but it's about how predictable the play is and how easy it is to defend against.

A top player understands and reads the game. They know when to make the right call and when to make the right pass. Westwood is simply fitting into a very structured system and playing the same monotonous ball every time regardless of the opposition, the amount of opposition central defenders and even regardless of the type of forwards we play.

For such a predictable move with so little success in a game when it was clear it wasn't going to get us anywhere to continually play the same way is wasteful, naive and shows a district lack of creativity. Do you honestly think it you were able to sum up how he finds the space to make those deep crosses that the opposition won't have?
No. They like you, do their homework and will train and learn to counter it.

Now if you look up some of the best assisters in the world you'll notice that their crossing accuracy isn't that high. Why? Because they often see an opportunity and try to create it. They use creativity, judgement, vision and flair and it's those attributes together with the unpredictability they bring that gets them good results.

Now don't get me wrong. I like Westwood and I enjoyed reading your take on his stats but there's plenty of other things you've completely glossed over that are easy to see and spot each time we play.

I'd personally like to see him think out of the box more because I think when he does mix up his play it works very well. I'm sure team instructions and tactics have a big part to play.. in fact that's partly why some of his stats are impressive to begin with, but a balance always has to be struck, especially with a team that tends to be so devoid of creativity.

So in a nutshell it's the system we play. The limited structured moves he makes as part of that system that constitutes to his overall stats. What he needs to improve on is adapting his forward play and not just relying on crosses from deep so often, especially in games when clearly they lead to nothing.

And just to mix it up. I had a brief look at some previous stats. In previous seasons our own Brady and Gudmundsson reached around 50% crossing accuracy. So whist 30% is impressive and beats the average it's not quite as impressive as you make it out to be. Especially given 90% of those crosses come from the same exact area.

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Re: Ashley Westwood Appreciation

Post by Mattster » Wed Apr 14, 2021 10:25 am

superdimitri wrote:
Wed Apr 14, 2021 9:39 am
So in a nutshell it's the system we play. The limited structured moves he makes as part of that system that constitutes to his overall stats. What he needs to improve on is adapting his forward play and not just relying on crosses from deep so often, especially in games when clearly they lead to nothing.
You make some good points and if crossing was all he brought to the table I'd agree with a lot of what you've said, fortunately he does a lot more as shown by this passing map for his most threatening passes. Yes there's a cluster in that area but there are plenty of others. The majority of his passes/crosses come from the right because he's most often deployed on the right of the double pivot.
WestwoodPass.jpg
WestwoodPass.jpg (297.04 KiB) Viewed 2429 times


I feel like this "hit and hope" crossing agenda is being over egged off the back of the Newcastle game. He usually averages around 4 cross attempts per game instead of the 14 against Newcastle.

I also find it a little funny you suggesting he tries different things and risks losing the ball more when the stick that most people are beating him with is that he gives away possession too often.

This is going round in circles though, I'm not going to shift my opinion on him as it's based on watching us, watching back games to look at him specifically (for this piece) and analysing the stats and neither will others for their own or similar reasons.

SalisburyClaret
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Re: Ashley Westwood Appreciation

Post by SalisburyClaret » Wed Apr 14, 2021 10:33 am

nyclaret wrote:
Wed Apr 14, 2021 7:05 am
A list of English centre midfielders off the top of my head who are better than Ashley Westwood (in no particular order):

Declan Rice
Mason Mount
Jude Bellingham
Jordan Henderson
Kalvin Phillips
James Ward-Prowse
Harry Winks
Tom Davies
Alex Oxlade-Chamberlain
Ross Barkley
Curtis Jones
Jack Cork
oops - you forgot to include the stats to back this up. Still your support for the team does you credit

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Re: Ashley Westwood Appreciation

Post by jojomk1 » Wed Apr 14, 2021 10:58 am

Mattster wrote:
Wed Apr 14, 2021 7:36 am
And as pointed out in the article he was recently highlighted as being the 2nd most accurate crosser in the league (after Lowton).
Am I reading this right ?

We have Matt Lowton as the most accurate crosser in the Premier League and your Ashley is second only to him

And neither recognised by Southgate - unbelievable Jeff :D

I will presume you are referring only to Burnley players - at least I hope you are

If so, how do his stats match up in cup games cos that might explain why we can't beat League 1 and 2 sides whenever we get drawn against them ;)

Serious question - in your mind, when does a punt become a cross. For me a cross comes from the sidelines (and maybe 10 yards in) whereas most of the "crosses" from Ash are about 10 yards or less from the centre line down the pitch

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Re: Ashley Westwood Appreciation

Post by Mattster » Wed Apr 14, 2021 11:11 am

jojomk1 wrote:
Wed Apr 14, 2021 10:58 am
Am I reading this right ?

We have Matt Lowton as the most accurate crosser in the Premier League and your Ashley is second only to him

And neither recognised by Southgate - unbelievable Jeff :D

I will presume you are referring only to Burnley players - at least I hope you are

If so, how do his stats match up in cup games cos that might explain why we can't beat League 1 and 2 sides whenever we get drawn against them ;)

Serious question - in your mind, when does a punt become a cross. For me a cross comes from the sidelines (and maybe 10 yards in) whereas most of the "crosses" from Ash are about 10 yards or less from the centre line down the pitch
I don't think you'll find me saying either should be called up by Southgate anywhere in here or the piece I wrote, but that's by the by.

Second most accurate crosser in the league according to wyscout's data.
0_QIXd5Uly4D-evRAf.jpg
0_QIXd5Uly4D-evRAf.jpg (128.63 KiB) Viewed 2416 times
Definitions will vary from source to source on what is defined as a cross - I believe wyscout's definition is closer to your definition and would not include all of the "crosses" from deeper positions whereas fbref use StatBomb data which I think is a bit more contextual (based on the height, intended recipient etc.) so would include those from deeper positions. However I'm not certain of that as they just say "crosses" without further definition.

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Re: Ashley Westwood Appreciation

Post by Newcastleclaret93 » Wed Apr 14, 2021 12:21 pm

Mattster wrote:
Wed Apr 14, 2021 11:11 am
I don't think you'll find me saying either should be called up by Southgate anywhere in here or the piece I wrote, but that's by the by.

Second most accurate crosser in the league according to wyscout's data.

0_QIXd5Uly4D-evRAf.jpg

Definitions will vary from source to source on what is defined as a cross - I believe wyscout's definition is closer to your definition and would not include all of the "crosses" from deeper positions whereas fbref use StatBomb data which I think is a bit more contextual (based on the height, intended recipient etc.) so would include those from deeper positions. However I'm not certain of that as they just say "crosses" without further definition.
I imagine with data on crosses it’s very broad. the type of crosses we play compared to wolves etc... will vary massively. Our crosses typically seem to come from deep, I imagine the likes of wolves etc... will be getting to the byline and crossing

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Re: Ashley Westwood Appreciation

Post by jojomk1 » Wed Apr 14, 2021 2:12 pm

Mattster wrote:
Wed Apr 14, 2021 11:11 am
I don't think you'll find me saying either should be called up by Southgate anywhere in here or the piece I wrote, but that's by the by.

Second most accurate crosser in the league according to wyscout's data.

0_QIXd5Uly4D-evRAf.jpg

Definitions will vary from source to source on what is defined as a cross - I believe wyscout's definition is closer to your definition and would not include all of the "crosses" from deeper positions whereas fbref use StatBomb data which I think is a bit more contextual (based on the height, intended recipient etc.) so would include those from deeper positions. However I'm not certain of that as they just say "crosses" without further definition.
One of the shortcomings always labelled at Traore was that there was little or no end product and there he is at No 6 in most accurate crossers in the Prem

Really trying hard to convert to the idea of using stats to validate the skills of any player rather than just go and watch them.

When you talk about the StatBomb data being more contextual (based on height, intended recipient etc) are you talking about the height/apex of the ball trajectory, or the height of the receiving/crossing player - just so I can take this info on board and appreciate the final assessment

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Re: Ashley Westwood Appreciation

Post by KRBFC » Wed Apr 14, 2021 2:31 pm

Mattster wrote:
Wed Apr 14, 2021 7:28 am
No, I'm saying he plays significantly more difficult and threatening passes. Try to keep up.
Still doesn't make him better though, does it? nor is it even remotely a fair or logical starting point to determine the better player :lol: It's almost as stupid as saying Kevin Long is better than Nesta ever was because Long passes with his left foot more often.

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Re: Ashley Westwood Appreciation

Post by KRBFC » Wed Apr 14, 2021 2:34 pm

claretonthecoast1882 wrote:
Wed Apr 14, 2021 8:00 am
Fair play to you Matt, engaging dimitri and kr at the same time is some effort on your part. Can't help thinking a bath with a toaster is less painful though.
Wow, great addition to a topic about Ashley Westwood, fantastic contribution. Well done CT and the mods, continue to let this idiot try to redirect every topic to some personal agenda driven slanging match.

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Re: Ashley Westwood Appreciation

Post by KRBFC » Wed Apr 14, 2021 2:42 pm

claretonthecoast1882 wrote:
Wed Apr 14, 2021 2:36 pm
:D

You last 5 or 6 posts in about 3 minutes kind of proves the point, you had a table booked for 2 hours today ? Do you enjoy you being gobby
What on earth are you talking about? :lol: table booked for 2 hours? What does that even mean and what relevance does that have to the price of cheese?

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Re: Ashley Westwood Appreciation

Post by Mattster » Wed Apr 14, 2021 2:50 pm

KRBFC wrote:
Wed Apr 14, 2021 2:31 pm
Still doesn't make him better though, does it? nor is it even remotely a fair or logical starting point to determine the better player :lol: It's almost as stupid as saying Kevin Long is better than Nesta ever was because Long passes with his left foot more often.
It's really not like that at all and you're really not making any sense. So far your contribution has been to say Soucek is better than Westwood because he scores more goals, to which I pointed out Soucek has score more goals than De Bruyne so that would make him better which is patently ridiculous. I don't think you're capable of keeping up with this discussion in all honesty but I'm happy for you to try and prove me wrong.

If you can explain why a midfielder completing more difficult and threatening passes is not a relevant and/or good thing for a midfielder to do and is, in fact, akin to a defender using their left foot more often then I'll be pleasantly surprised. You're up.
Last edited by Mattster on Wed Apr 14, 2021 3:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Ashley Westwood Appreciation

Post by Newcastleclaret93 » Wed Apr 14, 2021 3:02 pm

Mattster wrote:
Wed Apr 14, 2021 2:50 pm
It's really not like that at all and you're really not making any sense. So far your contribution has been to say Soucek is better than Westwood because he scores more goals, to which I pointed out Soucek has score more goals than De Bruyne so that would make him better which is patently ridiculous. I don't think you're capable of keeping up with this discussion in all honesty but I'm happy for you to try and prove me wrong.

If you can explain why a midfielder completing more difficult and threatening passes is not a relevant and/or good thing for a midfielder to do and is, in fact, akin to a defender using their left foot more often then I'll be pleasantly surprised. Your up.
I am lost, what is everyone arguing about? Are we saying Westwood is better than Soucek?

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Re: Ashley Westwood Appreciation

Post by claretcarrot93 » Wed Apr 14, 2021 3:07 pm

Newcastleclaret93 wrote:
Wed Apr 14, 2021 3:02 pm
I am lost, what is everyone arguing about? Are we saying Westwood is better than Soucek?

Can we all agree that Westwood is good for us but he is not better than Soucek and definitely not better than Mount

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Re: Ashley Westwood Appreciation

Post by jojomk1 » Wed Apr 14, 2021 3:11 pm

SalisburyClaret wrote:
Sat Apr 10, 2021 4:49 pm
The top performing English midfielders over the last 3 years have been Westwood, Grealish and McNeil - look it up!
There's your answer

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Re: Ashley Westwood Appreciation

Post by SalisburyClaret » Wed Apr 14, 2021 3:12 pm

jojomk1 wrote:
Wed Apr 14, 2021 3:11 pm
There's your answer
Another of your well-reasoned arguments

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Re: Ashley Westwood Appreciation

Post by Mattster » Wed Apr 14, 2021 3:36 pm

Newcastleclaret93 wrote:
Wed Apr 14, 2021 3:02 pm
I am lost, what is everyone arguing about? Are we saying Westwood is better than Soucek?
Personally I think he is as I'd put Westwood in my top 5 centre mids outside the big 6 but not Soucek, for the reasons I've covered multiple times in this thread. The only reason I've received to counter that are that "Soucek scores more goals so he's better".

But what I've also said is they're very different kinds of midfielder and that it's hard to pick a top 5 because central midfielders have different roles across different teams so ultimately it comes down to what you prefer. I prefer midfielders that create chances and progress their teams up the pitch.

KRBFC for some reason thinks me pointing out that Soucek is a bad passer that completes/fails to complete simple passes at the same rate Westwood completes/fails to complete much more difficult and threatening passes is the same as saying a player is better than another because he uses his left more.

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Re: Ashley Westwood Appreciation

Post by KRBFC » Wed Apr 14, 2021 4:07 pm

Mattster wrote:
Wed Apr 14, 2021 3:36 pm


KRBFC for some reason thinks me pointing out that Soucek is a bad passer that completes/fails to complete simple passes at the same rate Westwood completes/fails to complete much more difficult and threatening passes is the same as saying a player is better than another because he uses his left more.
No, it's just an irrelevant stat and not one I've ever seen used. I haven't ever seen simple/difficult pass attempt % used to determine which player is better. It's a complete null stat, midfield players are different and offer different things. Lampard, Kante and Westwood are 3 completely different midfielders, it would be absolutely mental to pick Westwood ahead of those 3 because the ''short pass'' stat % says so.

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Re: Ashley Westwood Appreciation

Post by Mattster » Wed Apr 14, 2021 4:14 pm

KRBFC wrote:
Wed Apr 14, 2021 4:07 pm
No, it's just an irrelevant stat and not one I've ever seen used. I haven't ever seen simple/difficult pass attempt % used to determine which player is better. It's a complete null stat, midfield players are different and offer different things. Lampard, Kante and Westwood are 3 completely different midfielders, it would be absolutely mental to pick Westwood ahead of those 3 because the ''short pass'' stat % says so.
Ignoring the things you're inventing that I've said...

Do you think it's irrelevant for a midfielder to be able to pass the ball well?

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Re: Ashley Westwood Appreciation

Post by KRBFC » Wed Apr 14, 2021 4:20 pm

Mattster wrote:
Wed Apr 14, 2021 4:14 pm
Ignoring the things you're inventing that I've said...

Do you think it's irrelevant for a midfielder to be able to pass the ball well?
It's more important in certain roles, not a necessity for a Kante type, way more important attributes ahead of passing in the Vieira mould. Carrick was excellent, really underrated player who passed the ball simple and effectively, Carrick could grab the game by the neck and dictate, Westwood doesn't possess that ability. I think Defour was a much better passer than Westwood, Defour was capable of dictating a game, someone like Joao Moutinho is a different level to Westwood too.

I think it's bonkers to say Westwood is better than Soucek because Westwood is ahead in the pass attempt % table.

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Re: Ashley Westwood Appreciation

Post by Mattster » Wed Apr 14, 2021 4:39 pm

KRBFC wrote:
Wed Apr 14, 2021 4:20 pm
I think it's bonkers to say Westwood is better than Soucek because Westwood is ahead in the pass attempt % table.
And I never said that.

I said Soucek is a bad passer and contributes next to nothing in between both boxes when I was saying why I personally rate Westwood more. I used some stats to back that up (his pass completion being in the bottom 5% of all midfielders in the Top 5 leagues being one, which you seem to have grasped on to as something that is a bizarre thing to consider in a midfielder, like passing to your own players is somehow irrelevant).

So far all I've got from you for why Soucek is better than Westwood is that he scores more goals.

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Re: Ashley Westwood Appreciation

Post by Mattster » Wed Apr 14, 2021 4:42 pm

Moutinho I concede you probably have a point on tbf KBRFC, I'd forgot about him. But then Moutinho has fewer goals/assists than Westwood and anything else is just irrelevant stats, right?

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Re: Ashley Westwood Appreciation

Post by jrgbfc » Wed Apr 14, 2021 5:05 pm

Mattster wrote:
Wed Apr 14, 2021 4:42 pm
Moutinho I concede you probably have a point on tbf KBRFC, I'd forgot about him. But then Moutinho has fewer goals/assists than Westwood and anything else is just irrelevant stats, right?
How many of Westwood's assists are corners?

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Re: Ashley Westwood Appreciation

Post by Mattster » Wed Apr 14, 2021 5:12 pm

jrgbfc wrote:
Wed Apr 14, 2021 5:05 pm
How many of Westwood's assists are corners?
1 of Westwood's 2 this season was from a set piece. But then Moutinho's only assist this season was from a set piece so... :lol:

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Re: Ashley Westwood Appreciation

Post by superdimitri » Wed Apr 14, 2021 6:49 pm

Mattster wrote:
Wed Apr 14, 2021 10:25 am
You make some good points and if crossing was all he brought to the table I'd agree with a lot of what you've said, fortunately he does a lot more as shown by this passing map for his most threatening passes. Yes there's a cluster in that area but there are plenty of others. The majority of his passes/crosses come from the right because he's most often deployed on the right of the double pivot.
No doubt he does a lot more, but you have to admit that very one move (cross from deep, right) is performed so often that of course it will skew his stats. Its very, very predictable, worked a few times and has become stale and easy to defend against.

Teams will assess previous games and its simply not good enough to keep doing the same move over and over again, and its that that frustrated me in the Newcastle game. I hope he learns from it, and if he tries it again without success he learns to stop.
Mattster wrote:
Wed Apr 14, 2021 10:25 am

I feel like this "hit and hope" crossing agenda is being over egged off the back of the Newcastle game. He usually averages around 4 cross attempts per game instead of the 14 against Newcastle.
That's entirely the point I was making. Glad you've backed it up. Yes the crossing move is common from him this season (much more common than any of his other 'moves'). But he usually is a lot less wasteful since he attempts much less crosses in a game than this usually. If he averages 4 crosses per game normally and against Newcastle made 14, then clearly something is wrong with our tactics, or his ability to read the game.
Mattster wrote:
Wed Apr 14, 2021 10:25 am
I also find it a little funny you suggesting he tries different things and risks losing the ball more when the stick that most people are beating him with is that he gives away possession too often.
I look at it differently, creative play will result in more mistakes, but also more chances. We see that a lot with McNeil..and its a trend with most attacking players. That's why people here are saying the stats are very kind to Westwood. He's a very limited player and doesn't have the same creativity and flair that some of the best midfielders have in the league, and that's why he doesn't score and assist as many. He needs to do exactly that, and loose possession more in a creative move rather than predictable deep crosses. Especially when we are playing without Barnes.
Mattster wrote:
Wed Apr 14, 2021 10:25 am
This is going round in circles though, I'm not going to shift my opinion on him as it's based on watching us, watching back games to look at him specifically (for this piece) and analysing the stats and neither will others for their own or similar reasons.
Well that's good, that is what good sensible debate is about right? One person willing to listen, the other not. Oh well.

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Re: Ashley Westwood Appreciation

Post by Elizabeth » Wed Apr 14, 2021 7:18 pm

I’m sure Matt has listed Westwood’s lack of good centre midfield skills such as finding space , beating players, turning well, scoring, making long shots, assisting goals in open play. If he wants to class Westwood as a top PL central midfielder based on his other skills I think that’s his entitlement.
The nearest we have got to some of those skills is Cork but how we miss someone with them.

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Re: Ashley Westwood Appreciation

Post by KRBFC » Wed Apr 14, 2021 7:42 pm

Mattster wrote:
Wed Apr 14, 2021 4:42 pm
Moutinho I concede you probably have a point on tbf KBRFC, I'd forgot about him. But then Moutinho has fewer goals/assists than Westwood and anything else is just irrelevant stats, right?
Tbh I'm not massive on stats at all, goals scored for strikers is really the only one. The eye test beats 99% of stats, Moutinho and Neves are definitely better than Westwood for me and they didn't even make your list. Westwood has been good for us, I do think he needs upgrading though, I'm not sure he's good enough technically for the player he tries to be, he's probably more suited to a defensive midfield role and passing the ball to a better player (like a Moutinho/Defour type to run the game). Moutinho/Defour ooze top class, the type to hit 70 yard diagonals with their weak foot.

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Re: Ashley Westwood Appreciation

Post by BurnleyFC » Wed Apr 14, 2021 7:53 pm

Still comedy gold is this thread.

It’s going to be a particular highlight getting back on the Turf and watching one of the top three Premier League centre midfielders in action.

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Re: Ashley Westwood Appreciation

Post by boatshed bill » Wed Apr 14, 2021 8:09 pm

I've just watched the Newcastle game.
Name our worst player

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Re: Ashley Westwood Appreciation

Post by nyclaret » Wed Apr 14, 2021 8:17 pm

Jude Bellingham has just scored against City in the UCL. Is Ashley Westwood better than him Salisbury?

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Re: Ashley Westwood Appreciation

Post by Mattster » Wed Apr 14, 2021 8:20 pm

superdimitri wrote:
Wed Apr 14, 2021 6:49 pm
No doubt he does a lot more, but you have to admit that very one move (cross from deep, right) is performed so often that of course it will skew his stats. Its very, very predictable, worked a few times and has become stale and easy to defend against.

Teams will assess previous games and its simply not good enough to keep doing the same move over and over again, and its that that frustrated me in the Newcastle game. I hope he learns from it, and if he tries it again without success he learns to stop.

That's entirely the point I was making. Glad you've backed it up. Yes the crossing move is common from him this season (much more common than any of his other 'moves'). But he usually is a lot less wasteful since he attempts much less crosses in a game than this usually. If he averages 4 crosses per game normally and against Newcastle made 14, then clearly something is wrong with our tactics, or his ability to read the game.


I look at it differently, creative play will result in more mistakes, but also more chances. We see that a lot with McNeil..and its a trend with most attacking players. That's why people here are saying the stats are very kind to Westwood. He's a very limited player and doesn't have the same creativity and flair that some of the best midfielders have in the league, and that's why he doesn't score and assist as many. He needs to do exactly that, and loose possession more in a creative move rather than predictable deep crosses. Especially when we are playing without Barnes.

Well that's good, that is what good sensible debate is about right? One person willing to listen, the other not. Oh well.
I'm going to find the time in the next couple of days to check every single time Westwood has possession of the ball in the Newcastle game. We'll see how often he does this "move" and what other passes he plays etc. If I'm wrong and the majority of his touches are hit and hope crosses and he does nothing else when he has the opportunity in the attack I'll happily admit I have him wrong. It's going to be a boring slog but it seems like a fitting way to round out my contributions to this thread :roll:

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Re: Ashley Westwood Appreciation

Post by KRBFC » Wed Apr 14, 2021 8:20 pm

I'd have Shelvey over Westwood tbh

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Re: Ashley Westwood Appreciation

Post by boatshed bill » Wed Apr 14, 2021 8:28 pm

KRBFC wrote:
Wed Apr 14, 2021 8:20 pm
I'd have Shelvey over Westwood tbh
I think most people would. But we support our own.

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Re: Ashley Westwood Appreciation

Post by boatshed bill » Wed Apr 14, 2021 8:32 pm

Mattster wrote:
Wed Apr 14, 2021 8:20 pm
I'm going to find the time in the next couple of days to check every single time Westwood has possession of the ball in the Newcastle game. We'll see how often he does this "move" and what other passes he plays etc. If I'm wrong and the majority of his touches are hit and hope crosses and he does nothing else when he has the opportunity in the attack I'll happily admit I have him wrong. It's going to be a boring slog but it seems like a fitting way to round out my contributions to this thread :roll:
Nailed on, you are right.
I've seen loads of posts criticising Brownhill, but he hardly ever lost possession. OK, his passing was hardly what you'd call "progressive", but he won the ball back regularly. Can't actually remember AW doing much of this.

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Re: Ashley Westwood Appreciation

Post by Mattster » Wed Apr 14, 2021 8:49 pm

boatshed bill wrote:
Wed Apr 14, 2021 8:32 pm
Nailed on, you are right.
I've seen loads of posts criticising Brownhill, but he hardly ever lost possession. OK, his passing was hardly what you'd call "progressive", but he won the ball back regularly. Can't actually remember AW doing much of this.
Vs. Newcastle
Pressures Applied (Number of times applied pressure to an opponent in possession, receiving or playing the ball):
Josh Brownhill - 17
Ashley Westwood - 20

Successful Pressures (Number of times the team regained possession within 5 seconds of applying the pressure):
Josh Brownhill - 2 (12%)
Ashley Westwood - 7 (35%)

Tackles:
Josh Brownhill - 0
Ashley Westwood - 0

Interceptions:
Josh Brownhill - 1
Ashley Westwood - 0

Ball Recoveries (recovering a loose ball):
Josh Brownhill - 14
Ashley Westwood - 17

Short Passes Attempted (Completed) - [5-15 yards]:
Josh Brownhill - 15(11) 73%
Ashley Westwood - 18(18) 100%

Medium Passes Attempted (Completed) - [15-30 yards]
Josh Brownhill - 15(14) 93%
Ashley Westwood - 30(28) 93%

Long Passes Attempted (Completed) - [30+ yards]
Josh Brownhill - 5(2) 40%
Ashley Westwood - 37(17) 43%

People see what they want to see.

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Re: Ashley Westwood Appreciation

Post by boatshed bill » Wed Apr 14, 2021 8:56 pm

Mattster wrote:
Wed Apr 14, 2021 8:49 pm
Vs. Newcastle
Pressures Applied (Number of times applied pressure to an opponent in possession, receiving or playing the ball):
Josh Brownhill - 17
Ashley Westwood - 20

Successful Pressures (Number of times the team regained possession within 5 seconds of applying the pressure):
Josh Brownhill - 2 (12%)
Ashley Westwood - 7 (35%)

Tackles:
Josh Brownhill - 0
Ashley Westwood - 0

Interceptions:
Josh Brownhill - 1
Ashley Westwood - 0

Ball Recoveries (recovering a loose ball):
Josh Brownhill - 14
Ashley Westwood - 17

Short Passes Attempted (Completed) - [5-15 yards]:
Josh Brownhill - 15(11) 73%
Ashley Westwood - 18(18) 100%

Medium Passes Attempted (Completed) - [15-30 yards]
Josh Brownhill - 15(14) 93%
Ashley Westwood - 30(28) 93%

Long Passes Attempted (Completed) - [30+ yards]
Josh Brownhill - 5(2) 40%
Ashley Westwood - 37(17) 43%

People see what they want to see.
Well. I am absolutely amazed at that. I take it back.

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Re: Ashley Westwood Appreciation

Post by Mattster » Wed Apr 14, 2021 9:03 pm

boatshed bill wrote:
Wed Apr 14, 2021 8:56 pm
Well. I am absolutely amazed at that. I take it back.
I mean, to be fair, Westwood did lose possession more as he attempted more long passes as a proportion of his total passes. Overall pass accuracy was 76% for Brownhill and 74% for Westwood.

Shelvey was 70%.

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Re: Ashley Westwood Appreciation

Post by boatshed bill » Wed Apr 14, 2021 9:34 pm

Mattster wrote:
Wed Apr 14, 2021 9:03 pm
I mean, to be fair, Westwood did lose possession more as he attempted more long passes as a proportion of his total passes. Overall pass accuracy was 76% for Brownhill and 74% for Westwood.

Shelvey was 70%.
Strange, isn't it. watching the game I thought a lot of Westwood's passing was a bit "hit and hope", I also thought his corners were poor.
And to, be honest, I couldn't remember Westwood making anything like a crucial tackle.
I guess it's about what does or does not impress at the time

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Re: Ashley Westwood Appreciation

Post by SalisburyClaret » Wed Apr 14, 2021 9:50 pm

nyclaret wrote:
Wed Apr 14, 2021 8:17 pm
Jude Bellingham has just scored against City in the UCL. Is Ashley Westwood better than him Salisbury?
Ok - I’ll try and explain as you’re clearly having trouble -

This is a thread about stats, they show what a player has produced.

It is not a thread about who is better.

For example - Stats prove that say Jordan Henderson does not produce as many assists as Westwood. Obviously Henderson is the better player

I know you’re finding it tough, perhaps consider contributing to one of the simpler threads

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Re: Ashley Westwood Appreciation

Post by nyclaret » Wed Apr 14, 2021 10:00 pm

SalisburyClaret wrote:
Wed Apr 14, 2021 9:50 pm
Ok - I’ll try and explain as you’re clearly having trouble -

This is a thread about stats, they show what a player has produced.

It is not a thread about who is better.

For example - Stats prove that say Jordan Henderson does not produce as many assists as Westwood. Obviously Henderson is the better player

I know you’re finding it tough, perhaps consider contributing to one of the simpler threads
One of the top 3 performing English midfielders over the last 3 years - Gareth prefers Harry Winks though which says it all
This was your original point. You suggest that Westwood should be in the England squad ahead of Harry Winks. Should Westwood be ahead of Henderson in the England squad based on your stats?

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Re: Ashley Westwood Appreciation

Post by boatshed bill » Wed Apr 14, 2021 10:08 pm

aren't stats wonderful.
St. Maximin: touches the ball about 20 times and turns the game on its head.

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Re: Ashley Westwood Appreciation

Post by superdimitri » Wed Apr 14, 2021 10:14 pm

Mattster wrote:
Wed Apr 14, 2021 8:49 pm
People see what they want to see.
I didn't see Brownhill make any deep crosses like Westwood. So he was nowhere near as wasteful in that game. I think the stat explains itself 37 longer balls in one game, less than 50% complete. Very wasteful. You have to think about what determines a successful ball too, balls in the air are far less likely to come of anything even if they do reach one of our players.

Of course Brownhill also isn't as good as a passer as Westwood, but he covers more ground and offers a lot more defensively. He had a poor game by his own standards too, but still came through with an interception.

You've made some good points, but ultimately you can only take stats so far. Its results that count, and stats like Assists and Goals which are secondary to results matter more than any other stat.

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Re: Ashley Westwood Appreciation

Post by Newcastleclaret93 » Wed Apr 14, 2021 10:18 pm

Mattster wrote:
Wed Apr 14, 2021 8:49 pm
Vs. Newcastle
Pressures Applied (Number of times applied pressure to an opponent in possession, receiving or playing the ball):
Josh Brownhill - 17
Ashley Westwood - 20

Successful Pressures (Number of times the team regained possession within 5 seconds of applying the pressure):
Josh Brownhill - 2 (12%)
Ashley Westwood - 7 (35%)

Tackles:
Josh Brownhill - 0
Ashley Westwood - 0

Interceptions:
Josh Brownhill - 1
Ashley Westwood - 0

Ball Recoveries (recovering a loose ball):
Josh Brownhill - 14
Ashley Westwood - 17

Short Passes Attempted (Completed) - [5-15 yards]:
Josh Brownhill - 15(11) 73%
Ashley Westwood - 18(18) 100%

Medium Passes Attempted (Completed) - [15-30 yards]
Josh Brownhill - 15(14) 93%
Ashley Westwood - 30(28) 93%

Long Passes Attempted (Completed) - [30+ yards]
Josh Brownhill - 5(2) 40%
Ashley Westwood - 37(17) 43%

People see what they want to see.
Out of interest where do you get these stats from?

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Re: Ashley Westwood Appreciation

Post by Newcastleclaret93 » Wed Apr 14, 2021 10:20 pm

superdimitri wrote:
Wed Apr 14, 2021 10:14 pm
I didn't see Brownhill make any deep crosses like Westwood. So he was nowhere near as wasteful in that game. I think the stat explains itself 37 longer balls in one game, less than 50% complete. Very wasteful. You have to think about what determines a successful ball too, balls in the air are far less likely to come of anything even if they do reach one of our players.

Of course Brownhill also isn't as good as a passer as Westwood, but he covers more ground and offers a lot more defensively. He had a poor game by his own standards too, but still came through with an interception.

You've made some good points, but ultimately you can only take stats so far. Its results that count, and stats like Assists and Goals which are secondary to results matter more than any other stat.
Pretty sure Westwood has covered more per game than any other Burnley player.

Brownhill got an interception but he was also dispossessed so kind of equals it self out.

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Re: Ashley Westwood Appreciation

Post by superdimitri » Wed Apr 14, 2021 11:23 pm

Newcastleclaret93 wrote:
Wed Apr 14, 2021 10:20 pm
Pretty sure Westwood has covered more per game than any other Burnley player.

Brownhill got an interception but he was also dispossessed so kind of equals it self out.
Can't seem to find distance covered stats. But you can compare each player here:
https://www.premierleague.com/stats/player-comparison

Just look at the difference between their defensive stats.
Image

Bearing in mind Brownhill has played 6 less games.

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