Posted on 16th April 2021

Europe’s biggest clubs have been roundly criticised by their own supporters today over plans to expand the Champions League.

Clubs that sit on the European Club Association (ECA) board, the body behind the push for radical reform to European club competition, have been told their plans are a “serious threat to the entire game”.

Fan groups from the 14 clubs represented on the board sent a joint letter to the ECA demanding an end to the plans and called on footballing authorities to stop making concessions to the continent’s most powerful clubs.

“Your plans to restructure the Champions League by increasing the number of games, introducing qualification based on past achievements, and monopolising commercial rights present a serious threat to the entire game,” the letter says.

“Such a blatant power grab would be indefensible at the best of times, but at the height of a global pandemic, it is nothing more than crisis profiteering—not to mention a stark contrast to the solidarity displayed by fans.”

A decision is expected very soon on the future of the Champions League, which would include 100 extra matches and four new “exclusive game weeks” running from Tuesday to Thursday.

The proposals from UEFA would also make concessions to the biggest clubs who have been drawing up plans for a breakaway European Super League by allowing entry for some teams based on historic performance in Europe.

This would guarantee participation in UEFA’s competitions for certain clubs even if they failed to qualify via performance in their domestic leagues, as it currently operates.

“We are the fans of today,” the fan groups said. “And we do not want more European games.

“We want strong, competitive domestic leagues, an equal opportunity to qualify for Europe based on sporting merit, and fairer sharing of the game’s wealth.”

The FSA has long-opposed the concept of a European Super League, but UEFA’s alternative plans represent a massive threat to lower league finances, domestic cup competitions, weekend football, and will all but lock out new entrants to European competition.

A stream of common sense in an ocean of greed!

I don't know whether this will happen, but the FA need to tell whoever is involved, that the structure and numbers of the Premier League are cast in stone. If they don't like the situation then they need to quit.
Any UEFA competition, on an aside, that doesn't involve qualification on merit, should be enough for the FA to withdraw from UEFA.
I'm sure there would be enough interest from other countries to create a new body to rule European football, that has the interest of the game at heart, instead of the interest of the money grabbers.

And such changes will mean an effect on us because it will surely reduce the number of clubs in the Premier League, something the big bully clubs would like.

I read an article that said if yesterdays vote went forward it would pass on Monday.
These grabbing bastards need a 3am wake up visit.

I have been posting about this extensively on the MMT thread for 3 years now, there has been plenty on there in the last month alone.

The key thing about the FSE letter yesterday was that is was signed exclusively by supporters groups from the 14 clubs who provide the board members of the European Clubs Association - that is because the ECA met yesterday to agree a position on how much control they wanted over the commercial rights to the Champions League - A previous agreement by ECA President Andrea Agnelli and UEFA President (and godfather of Agnelli's daughter - not a conflict of interest apparently) made in private between then was a 50/50 split. Since then clubs with American owners and Real Madrid have agitated for overall control.

an FSE letter last month was signed by hundreds of clubs supporters groups demanded no further changes to the Champions League format. On Thursday the ECA released a new report that Defined the modern fan (you can find it on the MMT thread) it makes for interesting reading and from it you can see why the ECA are ignoring the committed fan (they are already being rinsed for everything they can afford and probably more and are unlikely to give up that commitment - it is all about the occasional spectator and understanding them so they can rinse them more to grow revenues and it is from this perspective that all these changes and talks of what people want is coming from. No matter what they say publicly there is absolutely no interest in the wider football family.

there is also a rumour that before Monday's sign off there may be more revelations around a proposed Super League including the financial backers and possibly the key proponents - a tactic to force the aims of the greedy re the control of those commercial rights in the Champions League

It's time for reform.
Not the crap the Big Clubs want though.
Both the European and World governing bodies want binning and replacing less all-powerful and, more answerable and democratic organisations.
But with all the money involved these days, it wont happen.

This could be made to work as I think increasing the games between the best clubs from Europe is the way forward. We obviously need to protect domestic football and we wouldn't want to lose the biggest English clubs from the Premier League.

Say for example 6 English clubs played in the extended Champions league then they just play each domestic club once and double their points. That would free up 19 games for the big clubs whilst the rest would just lose 6 games.

You could even bump the Premier League to 22 teams so Burnley would play 15 teams twice and 6 teams once. It could actually work really well for us.

Exciting times

Manure are now selling home tickets for August games, fans are thrilled to be able to attend ‘a game’... it is the next move to Americanising football. How the hell are clubs supposed to survive never mind compete... it effectively makes each domestic league one tier lower... so North West lower league clubs cannot survive as full time... it is just a matter of time before chairman down the bottom rungs think what the hell is the point and sell up for new housing, commercial builders etc.

Short sightedness in the extreme, less jobs within football against bigger profits for the already obscenely wealthy.

Devils_Advocate wrote: ↑

Sat Apr 17, 2021 1:42 pm

This could be made to work as I think increasing the games between the best clubs from Europe is the way forward. We obviously need to protect domestic football and we wouldn't want to lose the biggest English clubs from the Premier League.

Say for example 6 English clubs played in the extended Champions league then they just play each domestic club once and double their points. That would free up 19 games for the big clubs whilst the rest would just lose 6 games.

You could even bump the Premier League to 22 teams so Burnley would play 15 teams twice and 6 teams once. It could actually work really well for us.

Exciting times

I’m never sure when you’re posting seriously or just to cast a line. I’ll assume the latter on this occasion.

It’s protectionism - wouldn’t it be lovely for Liverpool, after a season of being pretty poor, to be guaranteed their unmerited place in CL next season.

If they want an improved European competition, how about just having a midweek mini league consisting of the league and cup winners from each country.

None of this reduction in the number of teams in each league or ensuring that the haves keep the money rolling in, even when their performances don’t merit their place in an elite European competition.

It’s sod all to do with better quality or fewer games. It’s about more money and **** everyone else.

DCWat wrote: ↑

Sat Apr 17, 2021 11:40 am

A stream of common sense in an ocean of greed!

Let's hope common sense prevails !

A better idea - have the Champions League for previous season league champions.

Crazy, I know.

Er common sense + football...........

Maybe not.

EricaJacko wrote: ↑

Sat Apr 17, 2021 3:14 pm

A better idea - have the Champions League for previous season league champions.

Crazy, I know.

Would make the league so much better.

DCWat wrote: ↑

Sat Apr 17, 2021 2:41 pm

I’m never sure when you’re posting seriously or just to cast a line. I’ll assume the latter on this occasion.

It’s protectionism - wouldn’t it be lovely for Liverpool, after a season of being pretty poor, to be guaranteed their unmerited place in CL next season.

If they want an improved European competition, how about just having a midweek mini league consisting of the league and cup winners from each country.

None of this reduction in the number of teams in each league or ensuring that the haves keep the money rolling in, even when their performances don’t merit their place in an elite European competition.

It’s sod all to do with better quality or fewer games. It’s about more money and **** everyone else.

Understandably you are seeing this from the perspective of a local club supporter who attends matches.

Unfortunately you are the noisey minority these days so you better learn how to compromise or you and those like you will be left out in the cold

Noisy minority in the North West, maybe, but how do you think clubs in smaller countries will view this? Its another attampt to freeze them out.
We've had champions league finalists (or the equivalent past competition) from Romania, Sweden, yugoslavia, celtic, Belgium etc, but as they are from smaller with no chance of keeping their players when the rich boys from England, the two with fixed TV rights in Spain come along.
Given the players coming out of Belgium in recent years, we ought to have a strong anderlecht, Gent, standard etc, but no
Are some of these "big" teams worried that a benelux league might bring some of the constituent clubs back to relevance at their expense.
I'd much rather the champions league tried to go pay per view.

timshorts wrote: ↑

Sat Apr 17, 2021 8:07 pm

Noisy minority in the North West

Sorry but you in seem to have no objective perspective so whiist your opinion is as valid as anyone's it adds nothing in response to my post

Devils_Advocate wrote: ↑

Sat Apr 17, 2021 7:31 pm

Understandably you are seeing this from the perspective of a local club supporter who attends matches.

Unfortunately you are the noisey minority these days so you better learn how to compromise or you and those like you will be left out in the cold

You’re probably right, in the grand scheme of things, real fans may be in a minority. Ultimately though, that minority has far more of a voice than I think you realise.

Football is nothing without fans, as we are seeing with the matches played behind closed doors. If fans of the so called elite clubs are putting forward their opposition, alongside those of the other clubs, it’s most certainly not a case of being left out in the cold.

Money may win in the end, but I’d bet that it’s far less straightforward than you’re making it sound. Opposition will grow and quite where that might lead remains to be seen.

How about a Champions competition where the actual national champions not some random 234 th teams are allowed in
This could be a two legged knockout
No mini leagues . Less games

DCWat wrote: ↑

Sat Apr 17, 2021 8:46 pm

You’re probably right, in the grand scheme of things, real fans may be in a minority. Ultimately though, that minority has far more of a voice than I think you realise.

Football is nothing without fans, as we are seeing with the matches played behind closed doors. If fans of the so called elite clubs are putting forward their opposition, alongside those of the other clubs, it’s most certainly not a case of being left out in the cold.

Money may win in the end, but I’d bet that it’s far less straightforward than you’re making it sound. Opposition will grow and quite where that might lead remains to be seen.

I thought DA was talking from the position I described in my post earlier as to how the ECA are looking at fans. I think it is something our new owners will be really interested in, particularly as it offers greater opportunity to generate greater revenues

Chester Perry wrote: ↑

Sat Apr 17, 2021 10:03 pm

I thought DA was talking from the position I described in my post earlier as to how the ECA are looking at fans. I think it is something our new owners will be really interested in, particularly as it offers greater opportunity to generate greater revenues

I’d read it to be in reference to the increasing of the Champions League, closing the doors to others and limiting domestic leagues.

I’m not overly keen on the endless need for growth within football, I see it as a necessary evil that we need to take as big a slice of as we can.

What I don’t want though, is any changes to leagues or games that will further stifle competition. The thinly veiled arguments that they put forward were tiresome years before project big picture and now it’s simply the follow on from that.

Woodleyclaret wrote: ↑

Sat Apr 17, 2021 9:16 pm

How about a Champions competition where the actual national champions not some random 234 th teams are allowed in
This could be a two legged knockout
No mini leagues . Less games

That would make for a very short and very poor tournament. Is the Champions League not a much better spectacle for having the likes of Barcelona and Man City in?

Rileybobs wrote: ↑

Sat Apr 17, 2021 10:39 pm

That would make for a very short and very poor tournament. Is the Champions League not a much better spectacle for having the likes of Barcelona and Man City in?

No, frankly. The competition is set up to make it very hard for Man City and Barcelona to fail to reach the last 16, and so their matches before the last 16 are boring. The matches set up against patsies who are put there to lose are boring. The matches where they have already qualified are boring.

The interesting matches are the second legs of the knockout phase. Which is all that there was when it was the European Champions' Cup. Playing more matches to get to the same stage doesn't make it more exciting.

I saw a report of an interview with Guardiola. He was entirely happy with the idea of four or six or eight more matches in the Champions League, as long as they were matched with the same reduction in the number of league games. He could not see any problem with Man City playing the same number of games in different competitions but most other clubs playing 8 less - it simply wasn't, to him, a subject worth considering.

dsr wrote: ↑

Sat Apr 17, 2021 11:25 pm

No, frankly. The competition is set up to make it very hard for Man City and Barcelona to fail to reach the last 16, and so their matches before the last 16 are boring. The matches set up against patsies who are put there to lose are boring. The matches where they have already qualified are boring.

The interesting matches are the second legs of the knockout phase. Which is all that there was when it was the European Champions' Cup. Playing more matches to get to the same stage doesn't make it more exciting.

Ok, so you think the tournament would be a better spectacle if Liverpool were drawn against Malmö in the last 16 for example?

Only 6 of the final 16 teams in this season’s CL are current national champions. That’s because the second and third best teams in Spain, Germany and England etc. are much better than the Albanian champions.

Rileybobs wrote: ↑

Sat Apr 17, 2021 11:33 pm

Ok, so you think the tournament would be a better spectacle if Liverpool were drawn against Malmö in the last 16 for example?

Only 6 of the final 16 teams in this season’s CL are current national champions. That’s because the second and third best teams in Spain, Germany and England etc. are much better than the Albanian champions.

Yes. As it is, it goes on too long and there is a limit to how thoroughly I can be interested in a competition so carefully arranged to make the first 80% of it irrelevant. The whole point of the knockout and group stages are to ensure the "right" teams get into the last 16. How is that exciting? Only the knockout really matters.

If the European Cup was my primary interest, I might like the changes. I doubt it, because the intention is to have more meaningless matches - the prime object of all the preliminaries is to see that the likes of Liverpool and Real Madrid don't get knocked out. It's a farce.

dsr wrote: ↑

Sat Apr 17, 2021 11:55 pm

Yes. As it is, it goes on too long and there is a limit to how thoroughly I can be interested in a competition so carefully arranged to make the first 80% of it irrelevant. The whole point of the knockout and group stages are to ensure the "right" teams get into the last 16. How is that exciting? Only the knockout really matters.

If the European Cup was my primary interest, I might like the changes. I doubt it, because the intention is to have more meaningless matches - the prime object of all the preliminaries is to see that the likes of Liverpool and Real Madrid don't get knocked out. It's a farce.

I don’t disagree that the tournament is drawn out. I disagree with the idea that the participants should be limited to national champions.

Rileybobs wrote: ↑

Sun Apr 18, 2021 12:01 am

I don’t disagree that the tournament is drawn out. I disagree with the idea that the participants should be limited to national champions.

Then stop calling it a champions league... it’s a Europa league.

When the big boys play each other every year it starts to lose its appeal and become boring. I remember watching as a kid in the 90s when United played the likes of Barca and Juve they felt like genuinely big games, something to actually look forward to.
I can remember the likes of Gothenburg and Rangers being able to compete as well. What hopes have clubs from the smaller leagues got against the likes of City and PSG now?

The Champions league lost its gloss long ago.
Rather like the FA cup doesn’t have the same appeal as 30 years ago, the Champions league has gone the same way. I don't have BT anymore, and wouldn't go out of my way to buy it to watch this stupid competition. I say stupid because a Champions league, that isn't exclusive to champions, is a joke from day 1.
In the same way I wouldn't go our of my way to subscribe to watch any revamped European league. In fact if Sky get the TV deal, I'll probably quit that just to avoid contributing to the greedy bastards in charge.
In truth we can probably do nothing as individuals to stop this from happening, but there is lots we can do collectively to see it fail. A European league thats only fashionable in Asia would be a complete joke.

elwaclaret wrote: ↑

Sun Apr 18, 2021 1:59 am

Then stop calling it a champions league... it’s a Europa league.

Does the name of the tournament really bother you that much?

If fans are serious about this then they do have a real say in how this pans out.

If companies who sponsor a 'new' version of the Champions League see their products boycotted by a sizeable number of fans then it may just stop them pumping their money into the competition.

It only has to see a fall in sales rather than a collapse for them to realise that sponsoring the competition is toxic for them and they'll quickly think twice.

Can't see the masses doing it though, they never do.

Rileybobs wrote: ↑

Sun Apr 18, 2021 10:18 am

Does the name of the tournament really bother you that much?

Does not bother me at all, I just don’t watch it. But it is not a “Champions” League.

Agreed elwa, I'm another who doesn't watch "Champions League" football, whilst there's a lot of feigning injury and diving in the EPL, there's more of it in the CL and there's even less physical contact allowed by European refs with time wasting in added time blatantly ignored, it's a really boring watch.

elwaclaret wrote: ↑

Sun Apr 18, 2021 11:37 am

Does not bother me at all, I just don’t watch it. But it is not a “Champions” League.

I suppose a more accurate name would be The Elite European Club League and Knockout Cup - doesn’t have a great ring to it though.

Regardless of it’s name, the competition has the best sides in Europe, which would not be the case if it was restricted purely to domestic champions.

Rileybobs wrote: ↑

Sun Apr 18, 2021 11:44 am

Regardless of it’s name, the competition has the best sides in Europe, which would not be the case if it was restricted purely to domestic champions.

In the glory days of the European Cup when only the champions gained entry this is who you had to beat to win it.

78 Liverpool - Bye, Dynamo Dresden, Benfica, Borussia Mönchengladbach, Brugge
79 Forrest - Liverpool, AEK Athens, Grasshopper, Koln, Malmo
80 Forrest - Oster, Argeș Pitești, BFC Dynamo, Ajax, Hamburg
81 Liverpool - Ops, Aberdeen, CSKA Sofia, Bayern Munich, Real Madrid

Devils_Advocate wrote: ↑

Sun Apr 18, 2021 12:35 pm

In the glory days of the European Cup when only the champions gained entry this is who you had to beat to win it.

78 Liverpool - Bye, Dynamo Dresden, Benfica, Borussia Mönchengladbach, Brugge
79 Forrest - Liverpool, AEK Athens, Grasshopper, Koln, Malmo
80 Forrest - Oster, Argeș Pitești, BFC Dynamo, Ajax, Hamburg
81 Liverpool - Ops, Aberdeen, CSKA Sofia, Bayern Munich, Real Madrid

Them were’t’days. And they didn’t even use the word Champions in the competition name, that must have riled folk up.

It is the self perpetuating elite clubs League - those that have qualified regularly in the last decade have benefited enormously from the earnings it provides - English participants are averaging £80m a year in tv revenues alone before the commercial and matchday earnings - An English winner can earn as much from that one competition as Burnley do over a whole accounting year, That then gives them greater ability to differentiate themselves in the Premier League to re-qualify.

Even when these clubs are in transition they rarely miss more than one season (and still benefit from the Europa League, though for substantially less revenue). It is telling that Arsenal who have struggled the most to get back to the Champions League are involved in this nonsense of a coefficient qualification, Liverpool too. If it was in place next season, all Liverpool would have to do is finish 7th this year to be the 5th team in the Premier League to qualify, it effectively allows 5 of the big six to qualify every year. Some might say that would leave it to a straight north London battle. with the really big 4 assured of their revenues.

What is more insidious about the coefficients is that for clubs like Leicester, they will have to build up years of performance in Europe (mostly in the lower earning Europa League and Europa Conference (the new competition that starts next season) to build up the co-efficient points to get that 5th place - all the time earning significantly less than the incumbents, and earning less coefficient points than Champions League participants. It is a truly shocking state of affairs and nothing short of a UEFA sponsored Super League that effectively locks out all others.

bodge wrote: ↑

Sun Apr 18, 2021 11:42 am

Agreed elwa, I'm another who doesn't watch "Champions League" football, whilst there's a lot of feigning injury and diving in the EPL, there's more of it in the CL and there's even less physical contact allowed by European refs with time wasting in added time blatantly ignored, it's a really boring watch.

I watch it and the Champions League matches have very little diving and feigning injury . The refs are on the whole much better , with the odd exception. Try it.

I agree there is a lot of feigning injury and diving in the PL. I’d even go further and use words such as disgraceful

Things seem to have move on rather rapidly it seems - at least 11 clubs have agreed in principle to a European Super League according to reports

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=20891&start=6910

Arsenal
Chelsea
Manchester United
Liverpool
Tottenham

Barcelona
Real Madrid
Athletico Madrid

Juventus
AC Milan
Inter Milan

suggestions that Manchester City have now joined them

Interesting to see that the German clubs remain opposed to it..... a decent footballing model.

dandeclaret wrote: ↑

Sun Apr 18, 2021 3:25 pm

Interesting to see that the German clubs remain opposed to it..... a decent footballing model.

There are separate issues for the German Clubs, that make such a declaration more difficult

Being announced tonight

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/footb ... -UEFA.html

Are we in it ?

Is it an international branch of the company that use to make our kits?

Being touted as a done deal on NBCSN

Duplicate thread

PSG have joined the German clubs in not backing it

ClaretTony wrote: ↑

Sun Apr 18, 2021 3:52 pm

PSG have joined the German clubs in not backing it

That will have as much to do with the reported global rights holder being DAZN - PSG owned by the same people as BeIN media

There’s going to be some long lasting fall out from all of this, if it all comes to fruition.