Southgate Contract to be Extended

[KRBFC]

It's actually incredible we had a back four of

Neville Rio Terry Cole.

arguably the greatest back 4 in PL history, all English and all playing at the same time!!!
and we were still shite

[cricketfieldclarets]

It's a distant memory but if so it was only by minute detail. That was a talented group. Not sure if Trevor Steven was in that squad but he was another.

Just before 92 though when we had Dorigo and Palmer.

[Vegas Claret]

Shilton - all time cap holder - name his competition
Terry Butcher (captain) - great player and title winner - in Scotland, he played for Ipswich, Coventry and Rangers
Paul Parker - premier league winner under fergie - good player, not top quality
Stuart Pearce - top quality and very tough left back who was still playing premier league at 40 0 he even admits himself he wasn't top quality
Des Walker - great defender who went to serie a when they were known for great defenders - was good at Forest, his Seria A career was 30 games
Mark Wright - record fee for a defender when Liverpool signed him - won nothing
Paul Gascoigne - no comment needed - agree, one of the two I was talking about
David Platt - world class midfielder who had multiple record moves and played at the highest level in Europe - 55 appearances at Sampdoria, 16 for Juve and 29 for Bari. He was a good player but your World Class claim is laughable
Chris Waddle - outstanding player who won multiple titles and played in European cup finals for Marseille - very good player, not top quality
Peter Beardsley - see Gazza. Great player - I nearly included him as a third top quality player
Gary Lineker - 1 goal away from being England’s all time top scorer. World Cup golden boot winner. played for Barcelona ffs -he was the other top quality

Like I said, 2 TOP quality players, the rest were good to very good. Compare that to the German team we faced in the semi-final. Dress is up how you want, Robson worked miracles with a good side, world class they were not because we only had 1 Gascoigne and 1 Lineker

[BenWickes]

Just before 92 though when we had Dorigo and Palmer.

I rated Dorigo. Shudder at Palmer!

[Devils_Advocate]

It was decent, Bobby Robson worked miracles - but it in no way competes with the level of quality we currently have

He didn't, we were poor for most of the tournament.

Scrappy 1-1 draw with Ireland

Made no effort to attack Holland and just played for a 0-0 draw

Hardly created a chance against the mighty Egypt and take a look at the goal that won it for us

Outplayed by Belgium who hit the post 2 or 3 times and then we scored that fantastic goal to steal it in 120th minute. To be fair we played well against Belgium and it was a good game but we were definitely second best

Outplayed for a lot of the game by Cameroon when African football was nothing like it is today. We needed a penalty in last 20 mins to get a draw and a second pen to win in extra time

We then played well against the Germans and were unlucky to lose

This is my problem with some of the stupid comments made about Southgate cos if you compare him accurately against these past managers we hold in high esteem his team has performed just as good if not better

Also check out how dull Robson's 90 team was in qualification where I think we failed to score in half of the matches if you think Southgates teams are boring and negative

[Vegas Claret]

He didn't, we were poor for most of the tournament.

Scrappy 1-1 draw with Ireland

Made no effort to attack Holland and just played for a 0-0 draw

Hardly created a chance against the mighty Egypt and take a look at the goal that won it for us

Outplayed by Belgium who hit the post 2 or 3 times and then we scored that fantastic goal to steal it in 120th minute. To be fair we played well against Belgium and it was a good game but we were definitely second best

Outplayed for a lot of the game by Cameroon when African football was nothing like it is today. We needed a penalty in last 20 mins to get a draw and a second pen to win in extra time

We then played well against the Germans and were unlucky to lose

This is my problem with some of the stupid comments made about Southgate cos if you compare him accurately against these past managers we hold in high esteem his team has performed just as good if not better

Also check out how dull Robson's 90 team was in qualification where I think we failed to score in half of the matches if you think Southgates teams are boring and negative

See, here's the problem - not once did I say we were good or bad or indifferent, in fact I was pointing out that he got us to a semi final with only 2 TOP quality players.Pretty much worked a miracle

[Devils_Advocate]

See, here's the problem - not once did I say we were good or bad or indifferent, in fact I was pointing out that he got us to a semi final with only 2 TOP quality players.Pretty much worked a miracle

You said he worked miracles when he didn't. Our players under performed for most of the tournament and got lucky. That 90 team relative to the teams around them had just as much if not more quality and experience than our current team

The point is though that people talk about Robson as a great manager for what we did in 1990 and then downplay and call Southgate lucky for what we did in 2018.

The truth is the two campaigns are very similar and the only difference is people like Bobby Robson and dislike Southgate

[Rowls]

Some prize numptys on this thread but my favourite has to be dumb and dumbers exchange of wise words

Rowls - I'm genuinely baffled that *anyone* at all supports Southgate in the role.

Elizabeth - They’re the type who don’t know what being a Yes Man means. Yeh , seriously

Good to see you on form DA.

[Devils_Advocate]

Good to see you on form DA.

Yep loving life as you are by the looks of it

[boatshed bill]

Like I said, 2 TOP quality players, the rest were good to very good. Compare that to the German team we faced in the semi-final. Dress is up how you want, Robson worked miracles with a good side, world class they were not because we only had 1 Gascoigne and 1 Lineker

I'm not too fussed what people say about that team, i maintain that it was very good.
so was the team that SGV took to Japan.

[Bin Ont Turf]

The truth is the two campaigns are very similar and the only difference is people like Bobby Robson and dislike Southgate

I've explained to you what the crack is there, but I'll try one more time.

If Southgate had been a manager for 14 years before becoming England manager and had won trophies, then he'd be seen as the same as Robson.

However if Southgate manages to win this tournament then folk won't have any excuse left.

[Devils_Advocate]

I've explained to you what the crack is there, but I'll try one more time.

If Southgate had been a manager for 14 years before becoming England manager and had won trophies, then he'd be seen as the same as Robson.

However if Southgate manages to win this tournament then folk won't have any excuse left.

The discussion is about how they performed as England manager not what they did before. Now have an early night as its gonna be a cloudy day tomorrow

The fact you admit people are looking for excuses to criticise him says it all

[Vegas Claret]

You said he worked miracles when he didn't. Our players under performed for most of the tournament and got lucky. That 90 team relative to the teams around them had just as much if not more quality and experience than our current team

The point is though that people talk about Robson as a great manager for what we did in 1990 and then downplay and call Southgate lucky for what we did in 2018.

The truth is the two campaigns are very similar and the only difference is people like Bobby Robson and dislike Southgate

Utter nonsense

Also, I've not read or heard a single person say they dislike Southgate as a bloke, in fact it's the opposite - I've heard people question his tactics

[Vegas Claret]

I'm not too fussed what people say about that team, i maintain that it was very good.
so was the team that SGV took to Japan.

I'm not saying it wasn't good. I'm saying there were only 2 TOP quality players and I believe our current squad is the stronger

[Bin Ont Turf]

The discussion is about how they performed as England manager not what they did before. Now have an early night as its gonna be a cloudy day tomorrow

The fact you admit people are looking for excuses to criticise him says it all

It's about experience, achievements and perception, my little odd nappy wearer.

[Rowls]

Made no effort to attack Holland and just played for a 0-0 draw
...
...
Also check out how dull Robson's 90 team was in qualification where I think we failed to score in half of the matches if you think Southgates teams are boring and negative

You made some good points but you're completely wrong about Holland game. We dominated the chances and had a goal disallowed. Were very unlucky not to win comfortably against the reigning European Champions.

You're also mistaken if you think the concerns regarding Southgate's level of competence is about his style football. The complaint is poor quality football.

If I thought we were effectively shutting down games and deliberately creating low-chance football in order to sneak 1-0 wins as a deliberate tactic I'd be delighted. The Germans picked our defence three times in the opening 30 minutes.

The truth is, I think we've been fortunate in the low quality of the opposition and in particular the low quality of finishing in the teams against us.

I think we're riding our luck. I think we're getting away with having a dreadful manager because of a good quality squad.

I think Southgate's England play the exact same style of football as his Middlesbrough side did. I still cannot fathom how that disastrous spell in the North East qualified him for the England job.

[Rowls]

Yep loving life as you are by the looks of it

You can see me?

edit - PSL: Nice hair cut. You look like Jim Carey.

[cricketfieldclarets]

Why don’t people just admit they were wrong about him

[CrosspoolClarets]

Poisoned chalice the England job. It was a brave decision to go against the grain and wave of popular opinion. He knew that. I've said on another thread I wouldn't be surprised if he went 3 at the back though. I could see why.
De Boer has gone in the Netherlands job so it's pretty much appropriate for any manager to say they're dead. Fine margins.
It was a brave choice to go with what he did but you can't argue he got it right. He has done all tournament and the aim of the game is to win it. Doesn't matter who you upset, or how negative it is or positive it is. Pick the side that will get you to the next game.
He has.

I don’t particularly disagree.

A bit like Dyche when you set up so negative you have to succeed (for Dyche it is staying up, for Southgate probably winning a couple of knockouts).

He succeeded today, a bit lucky, a bit not. No doubt though we neutralised Germany’s strengths.

A bit of a dilemma now that he has Mount to waltz back in. A bit of a Jimmy Greaves syndrome that one.

[Devils_Advocate]

Why don’t people just admit they were wrong about him

Its embarrassing and it must impact how much enjoyment they get from days like today

[yTib]

you're embarrassing on a day to day basis advocate.

[Rowls]

Why don’t people just admit they were wrong about him

On which side?

I'll happily be proved wrong but I see nothing in the style of football to suggest he's a good manager.

It's very tricky to "prove" this at international level.

England managers traditionally proved themselves beforehand.

The only exceptions to this rule I can think of are:

Apparently offering the role to Jimmy Adamson in 1962
Peter "Legend in his own lunchtime" Taylor who was an emergency caretaker for one game
Steve McClaren
Sutart Pearce (caretaker again)

I think Gareth is about on a par with Pearce in terms of managerial ability but it's a close call between Southgate, Pearce & McClaren.

They all have similar levels of "success" at club level.

[milkcrate_mosh]

.
The truth is, I think we've been fortunate in the low quality of the opposition and in particular the low quality of finishing in the teams against us.

I think we're riding our luck. I think we're getting away with having a dreadful manager because of a good quality squad.

England have conceded once in their last 10 games, that's extraordinary luck.

[cricketfieldclarets]

On which side?

I'll happily be proved wrong but I see nothing in the style of football to suggest he's a good manager.

It's very tricky to "prove" this at international level.

England managers traditionally proved themselves beforehand.

The only exceptions to this rule I can think of are:

Apparently offering the role to Jimmy Adamson in 1962
Peter "Legend in his own lunchtime" Taylor who was an emergency caretaker for one game
Steve McClaren
Sutart Pearce (caretaker again)

I think Gareth is about on a par with Pearce in terms of managerial ability but it's a close call between Southgate, Pearce & McClaren.

They all have similar levels of "success" at club level.

[BenWickes]

I don’t particularly disagree.

A bit like Dyche when you set up so negative you have to succeed (for Dyche it is staying up, for Southgate probably winning a couple of knockouts).

He succeeded today, a bit lucky, a bit not. No doubt though we neutralised Germany’s strengths.

A bit of a dilemma now that he has Mount to waltz back in. A bit of a Jimmy Greaves syndrome that one.

Ukraine will sit back and hope for a counter. No doubt they have pace so it'll be interesting how Southgate approaches it. I don't think he'll change much but I'd personally release the hounds.

[Rowls]

England have conceded once in their last 10 games, that's extraordinary luck.

If you look at the chances created by Scotland, Germany, Croatia and Czech Republic I have to agree.

Low scoring games aren't luck - it's a hallmark of Southgate's play - but the opposition finishing their chances (for example the German one-on-one today) is nothing but.

[Devils_Advocate]

you're embarrassing on a day to day basis advocate.

Yep im the embarrassing one

i can't imagine gareth saying no to anyone.

here is a scenario i think is more than realistic:

me: oi southgate give me your dinner money
gs: yes

[cricketfieldclarets]

If you look at the chances created by Scotland, Germany, Croatia and Czech Republic I have to agree.

Low scoring games aren't luck - it's a hallmark of Southgate's play - but the opposition finishing their chances (for example the German one-on-one today) is nothing but.

I’m out.

[KRBFC]

I'm not saying it wasn't good. I'm saying there were only 2 TOP quality players and I believe our current squad is the stronger

How on earth do you think this current squad is stronger than the Sven/Capello lot? All of our best players in this squad play in the same position.

Scholes > Rice
Gerrard > Henderson
Lampard > Phillips
Cole > Shaw
Neville > Trippier
Rio > Maguire
Terry > Stones
Campbell > Mings
Owen > DCL
Rooney and Kane are pretty even.
Pickford and James are pretty even.

Then you get to Foden/Grealish/Saka/Rashford/Mount/Sancho/Sterling who are ALL wide players, so you can't exactly make a team with more than 2 in at once.

[yTib]

Yep im the embarrassing one

perhaps i should use smileys in my jokes for those that need instructions.

[milkcrate_mosh]

And so strange that Germany were able to score 4 against Portugal, Croatia 3 against Spain, the Czechs twice against the dutch. Also odd that we've ended up with the second lowest xG against despite all these chances against us.

[KRBFC]

On which side?

I'll happily be proved wrong but I see nothing in the style of football to suggest he's a good manager.

It's very tricky to "prove" this at international level.

England managers traditionally proved themselves beforehand.

The only exceptions to this rule I can think of are:

Apparently offering the role to Jimmy Adamson in 1962
Peter "Legend in his own lunchtime" Taylor who was an emergency caretaker for one game
Steve McClaren
Sutart Pearce (caretaker again)

I think Gareth is about on a par with Pearce in terms of managerial ability but it's a close call between Southgate, Pearce & McClaren.

They all have similar levels of "success" at club level.

Let me get this right, we just beat Germany in a Euros knockout round and you're complaining Southgate got the job 5 years ago because of a job he did 15 years ago at Middlesbrough? lmaoooooooo talk about living in the past you're 5 years too late with your complaint, surely you haven't been moaning about this for 5 years... let it go, its unhealthy.

[KRBFC]

And so strange that Germany were able to score 4 against Portugal, Croatia 3 against Spain, the Czechs twice against the dutch. Also odd that we've ended up with the second lowest xG against despite all these chances against us.

and for apparently such a poor quality of group, we were very close to having all 3 sides through to the quarter finals.

[Cubanclaret]

With respect to people with contrary opinions, I think Southgate has shown an excellent understanding of his players personalities, backgrounds and capabilities. There’s a lot of tension in the media spotlight, there’s a key issue with the way racism and identity is understood by england and eng-er-land (essentially two camps) - maybe you could call that the baggage. And then there’s the all-important tactical nuances needed for tournament football. It’s not an easy role and I think he’s shown great leadership and no shortage of canny skill. The players are playing for him and we should really be having some pride in this team.

[KRBFC]

With respect to people with contrary opinions, I think Southgate has shown an excellent understanding of his players personalities, backgrounds and capabilities. There’s a lot of tension in the media spotlight, there’s a key issue with the way racism and identity is understood by england and eng-er-land (essentially two camps) - maybe you could call that the baggage. And then there’s the all-important tactical nuances needed for tournament football. It’s not an easy role and I think he’s shown great leadership and no shortage of canny skill. The players are playing for him and we should really be having some pride in this team.

Forget all that and forget the Nations league final, World Cup semi final, breezing through every qualifiers (where previous failed), first manager to win an opening Euro game, throw it all out of the window it doesn't matter, lets just talk about the job he did at Middlesbrough 15 years ago instead, its way more relevant.

[Devils_Advocate]

With respect to people with contrary opinions, I think Southgate has shown an excellent understanding of his players personalities, backgrounds and capabilities. There’s a lot of tension in the media spotlight, there’s a key issue with the way racism and identity is understood by england and eng-er-land (essentially two camps) - maybe you could call that the baggage. And then there’s the all-important tactical nuances needed for tournament football. It’s not an easy role and I think he’s shown great leadership and no shortage of canny skill. The players are playing for him and we should really be having some pride in this team.

Great post and sums it up perfectly

[Rowls]

https://www.uefa.com/uefaeuro-2020/stat ... /attempts/

https://www.uefa.com/uefaeuro-2020/stat ... defending/

https://www.uefa.com/uefaeuro-2020/stat ... attacking/

https://www.uefa.com/uefaeuro-2020/stat ... ams/goals/

These are the stats.

Stats don't lie but they're only as useful as how you interpret them.

When Burnley qualified for Europe in 2017 we did so apparently in the face of stats that said we "should have" lost particular games. However, when you looked at a few key stats (for example, blocks, quality of chances created) we were doing remarkably well. This England team don't have those redeeming factors in the stats.

The most important stats are the wins and Gareth can take the credit for that. You can only beat the team you're playing.

But I *DO* think he's been remarkably lucky and I don't think his luck will last.

The way we play, our inability to create chances, our suicidal fannying around at the back and our ability to make chances for the opposition leave me scared to death of what might happen if we play a half-decent side.

I'm genuinely scared we'll get taken to the cleaners like Brazil vs Germany in 2014 or similar.

[KRBFC]

leave me scared to death of what might happen if we play a half-decent side.

Those Germans are a pub team, god forbid we don't play a real team soon!

[KRBFC]

Imagine linking stats where Scotland are above England and trying to convince anyone they have any significance

[Rowls]

Let me get this right, we just beat Germany in a Euros knockout round and you're complaining Southgate got the job 5 years ago because of a job he did 15 years ago at Middlesbrough? lmaoooooooo talk about living in the past you're 5 years too late with your complaint, surely you haven't been moaning about this for 5 years... let it go, its unhealthy.

When you say "let it go" are you suggesting I change my opinion simply because of the passing of time in spite of there being no good evidence to suggest Southgate become a better a manager?

I nearly changed my opinion of him when he appeared to have the ability to inspire good performances but the same problems arise again and again.

1. Not creating chances, not scoring goals.
2. Giving the ball away and gifting the opposition chances.

Combine these two together and you have a recipe for failure. Only blind luck of having exceptionally good players will save a manager whose teams have these faults.

Number 1 cannot be argued. It is statistically true.

There are plenty of examples of number 2 too.

Add into the mix a general lack of organisation at the back and it spells trouble.

Now let's suppose for a second that you -somehow- are the manager of Burnley FC and you play Padiham FC in the cup managed by the Sir Alex Ferguson in his prime. Which team do you think is most likely to win? I'd fancy your Burnley side's chances.

Are you a better manager than Alex Ferguson?

[Rowls]

Imagine linking stats where Scotland are above England and trying to convince anyone they have any significance

Stats don't lie but they're only as useful as how you interpret them.

[Rowls]

Good luck to whichever team takes on Gareth Southgate when he returns to club management. They'll need it.

[milkcrate_mosh]

However, when you looked at a few key stats (for example, blocks, quality of chances created) we were doing remarkably well. This England team don't have those redeeming factors in the stats.

I'm not surprised we've not made many blocks, we've only conceded 6 shots on target. We're joint 3rd with Italy on big chances...

[Rowls]

And I pray it isn't Burnley.

[Rowls]

I'm not surprised we've not made many blocks, we've only conceded 6 shots on target. We're joint 3rd with Italy on big chances...

I'd love to see those "big chances" stats (I'm amazed if that's true). Do you have a link to them?

[milkcrate_mosh]

I'd love to see those "big chances" stats (I'm amazed if that's true). Do you have a link to them?

https://www.fotmob.com/leagues/50/stats ... _team/euro

[BenWickes]

Those Germans are a pub team, god forbid we don't play a real team soon!

It's the English mentality. Was discussing this the other night with the wife. Lose we'll be slaughtered. Win and we'll probably have played a weak team.

[yTib]

if muller had put that sitter away today i doubt the chinless southgate would have so many advocates on here or anywhere.

[Rowls]

https://www.fotmob.com/leagues/50/stats ... _team/euro

I'm genuinely surprised by that I freely admit.

Beligum have scored twice as many goals as us from half as many "big chances". Which means that logically they are 4 times better at putting the ball in the back of the net.

Like I said with stats, they're only as good as your interpretation of them.

I hope we win the tournament and get lumbered with Southgate for another four years or whatever. But I think we have one of the best squads in the tournament and that, tactically, he is inept and useless.

[KRBFC]

When you say "let it go" are you suggesting I change my opinion simply because of the passing of time in spite of there being no good evidence to suggest Southgate become a better a manager?

I nearly changed my opinion of him when he appeared to have the ability to inspire good performances but the same problems arise again and again.

1. Not creating chances, not scoring goals.
2. Giving the ball away and gifting the opposition chances.

Combine these two together and you have a recipe for failure. Only blind luck of having exceptionally good players will save a manager whose teams have these faults.

Number 1 cannot be argued. It is statistically true.

There are plenty of examples of number 2 too.

Add into the mix a general lack of organisation at the back and it spells trouble.

I'm suggesting you let it go about his job 15 years ago at Middlesbrough and maybe judge him on the work he's done in the previous 5 years while manager of England where the results have been great regardless of style of play.

As for the rest of your post, you say England lack organisation at the back and gift the opposition chances, England have won 8 of their previous 9 fixtures and conceded only 1 goal.

The creating chances and goals part is whatever, winning 1-0 or 5-0, is the same thing really.

I don't even know why I'm responding, you are clearly so negative towards England and Southgate, nothing will change your mind, keep hating.