While we all know our mid is a weak spot , I seriously thought Cork and Westwood were miles off today and were brushed aside with ease again and again . Brownhill huffs and puffs but when does he ever have a good game ?They were outpaced outclassed and outfought . The worst I’ve ever seen this midfield ,they simply couldn’t hang in at all . The alternatives are the past it JBG/Lennon . Hopefully a quality CM will be the board’s ( the actual board of directors!)priority as this midfield Is total relegation fodder .

There’s a lot to improve

Yes of course it will get worse until we get new and better midfielders in. 1 or 2 have simply had their day.

Westwood is fine, I think. He's been okay this season overall, nothing more, but can still do a job.

Brownhill takes some stick, unfairly I think, but again I think he can do a job and I like him.

Cork I've not seen much of at all lately. My suspicion is that he's hit a wall in a similar way that Stephen Ward did.

I think we really needed another quality player in alongside one of Westwood or Brownhill. The two together haven't really worked in the system we've employed them. That's the area I'd be going all out for in January.

Thought Cork and Westwood were very poor today.

we are desperate for someone with some composure on the ball. Far too often this season our entire midfield have been guilty of not being able to make simple 5 yard passes and it has cost us in every single game

It should have been a high priority area for reinforcements in the summer - unfortunately it either wasn’t seen as such or we couldn’t get in the player(s) wanted.

Lets hope the Ross Barkley rumours have some substance

Panic ye not. Dale Stephens is back on the grass.

Well, it could actually get worse

DCWat wrote: ↑

Sat Oct 23, 2021 6:30 pm

It should have been a high priority area for reinforcements in the summer - unfortunately it either wasn’t seen as such or we couldn’t get in the player(s) wanted.

We couldn’t reshape the team in one window. Cornet , Collins and Roberts look like being excellent signings

You cannot chase the ball for ninety minutes hoping to win it back in dangerous areas, at some stage you need to keep possession if for nothing else to give your players a rest.

This season too often we have dropped our intensity after an hour because players are running on empty, this is in part due top the fact we cannot keep possession for a sustained period of time, the midfield two/three are mainly at fault but Wood this season has been very poor at holding the ball up.

Hopefully we will stay up to give us the funds to rebuild but we need a major shake up in the central midfield and forward areas. We knew this two seasons ago though.

Elizabeth wrote: ↑

Sat Oct 23, 2021 6:34 pm

We couldn’t reshape the team in one window. Cornet , Collins and Roberts look like being excellent signings

I think it was more of a gamble to not recruit a midfielder than it would have been to recruit one and any risk of reshaping the team that it brought.

I’m not actually sure that the recruitment of one extra midfield player would have even necessitated reshaping the team. There is a balance to be sought though.

It summed up Brownhills lack of confidence in his passing, when he had an easy through ball to Cornet for his 3rd.
But he played the safe pass to McNeil, who shot over from the edge of the box.

Let's lay off the playing staff. It's not their fault that the transfer windows that ought to have brought in fresh blood didn't. They have always given their all. Sometimes it's not enough. That's life. Don't castigate them for it.

Admittedly watched the game on Hesgoal stream. Tarks had had some criticism for his mistake for their second. That does not worry me as he is a warrior and in the weeks to come will make a last ditch tackle or block to earn us points or get us the winner at the other end. It was the midfield that got to me today. Second to the ball, not picking up runners, no possession, no creativity. Made me laugh today reading Cork's comments about a new contract.Says he needs to give it thought and depends on how many games this season he is featured in.I thought he was very poor today-for someone wearing the shirt, playing for a starting position and contract, and being given the chance to play v one of his former teams in front of their fans. For me today confirms his wage should go to new signing.He will know there will be no PL team wanting him and will end up at somewhere like Sheff Utd. Westwood looked very slow today, and it frustrates him which leads to arguing and unnecessary fouls. Suspect he will be banned soon for 5 yellows. Brownhill is combative but no skill on the ball.The midfield is very worrying and hopefully Alan Pace is realising this and along with a goal scorer will make CM a priority

I honestly think our midfield would struggle to get in top championship teams.

We genuinely have no quality whatsoever on the ball

Westwood been off the game for two seasons now. It was the start of last season when I noticed him starting to throw his arms up in the air and acting like a goofball.

One of my favourite players over the years but we need to replace with quality in the middle. Our two CMs should be 3rd and 4th choice now.

And the reason we play long is answered.

Quickenthetempo wrote: ↑

Sat Oct 23, 2021 6:50 pm

It summed up Brownhills lack of confidence in his passing, when he had an easy through ball to Cornet for his 3rd.
But he played the safe pass to McNeil, who shot over from the edge of the box.

I don’t think it’s lack of confidence, more that he has no top level creative passing ability

I said on here before the season started and when the transfer window closed that if we have to depend on Brownhill, Cork and Westwood as our central midfield three then I feared for the worst. Nothing I have seen has changed my mind. The signings of Cornet, Collins and hopefully Roberts fill me with more confidence but we need a complete upgrade on Westwood and Cork in particular.

Been a problem for a couple of seasons and is magnified by the ageing of our below standard midfield. Said it so many times but they are pedestrian, lack any creativity, cant beat a man, can't keep possession. Both Cork and Westwood were robbed of the ball with ease more than once, Brownhill runs around a lot and lost his man for their first. They are the reason we play long and struggle to create anything for the front 2.

There will be no improvements to the team until the midfield problem is addressed.

It is the biggest area of concern, the lack of pace and mobility is clear to see - time and time again the opposition midfield gain ground at an alarming rate and we look very susceptible to the counter. I think Brownhill is a good workhorse and was the best out of the three today. Westwood and Cork are technically better players but don't have the mobility needed at this level now, the latter in particular seems to struggle. We need someone strong and mobile who'll cover ground up and down the pitch - look at the difference Cornet has made going forward, I really believe a quality addition in the middle of the pitch will make a massive difference to us. A key area now.

SkiptonClaret wrote: ↑

Sat Oct 23, 2021 6:31 pm

Panic ye not. Dale Stephens is back on the grass.

Well he certainly played like he was smoking it.

Hopefully Pace has been asking Cornet which of his mates will come over and play for us.

If you want to appreciate how below par our midfield is, then just imagine an in form Steven Defour playing with a current Cornet.Now that would be worrying for any opposing team

warksclaret wrote: ↑

Sat Oct 23, 2021 7:58 pm

If you want to appreciate how below par our midfield is, then just imagine an in form Steven Defour playing with a current Cornet.Now that would be worrying for any opposing team

Not one of our midfielders had a pass accuracy above 75% today. It’s starting to get embarrassing how bad we are on the ball

warksclaret wrote: ↑

Sat Oct 23, 2021 7:58 pm

If you want to appreciate how below par our midfield is, then just imagine an in form Steven Defour playing with a current Cornet.Now that would be worrying for any opposing team

We'd definitely get a tune out of them that's for sure.

With the current squad, I feel that we have to put Dwight in the centre of midfield after all, this is the position he always played when he was growing up.
I don't get people's love affair with Brownhill, he can't create a chance, last week at city he couldn't hit the target from 7yrds out, and today he demonstrated that he can't cross a ball either.

I've always felt Cork has been a calm and decent midfielder over the years, until this past couple of seasons. Today his performance was one of the worst midfield showings I've seen for a long, long time. Back to 4-4-2 I suspect next week and wouldn't surprise me if we see very little of him after that

Belial wrote: ↑

Sat Oct 23, 2021 8:39 pm

I've always felt Cork has been a calm and decent midfielder over the years, until this past couple of seasons. Today his performance was one of the worst midfield showings I've seen for a long, long time. Back to 4-4-2 I suspect next week and wouldn't surprise me if we see very little of him after that

Well yes there’s the obvious change as Vydra is much better to have in the 11, but what about the idea we need 5 across midfield to allow max to keep getting forward. It’s a tricky one.

Iloveyoubrady wrote: ↑

Sat Oct 23, 2021 8:45 pm

Well yes there’s the obvious change as Vydra is much better to have in the 11, but what about the idea we need 5 across midfield to allow max to keep getting forward. It’s a tricky one.

The formation definitely has potential, it's whether we have the players to suit right now that would bother me

Vegas Claret wrote: ↑

Sat Oct 23, 2021 6:25 pm

we are desperate for someone with some composure on the ball. Far too often this season our entire midfield have been guilty of not being able to make simple 5 yard passes and it has cost us in every single game

This is so true. At 30 minutes today it just needed someone in the middle of the park to take control for us and kill their momentum. We just needed to thread 5 or 10 passes together. We had the opportunity on multiple occasions in which to do this, but instead gave the ball away incredibly cheaply under little pressure time and time again. As a result we gave them 3 big chances.

warksclaret wrote: ↑

Sat Oct 23, 2021 6:57 pm

The midfield is very worrying and hopefully Alan Pace is realising this and along with a goal scorer will make CM a priority

But does the manager see this obvious weakness in central midfield.

Forward planning should have seen players brought in at least 18 months ago to take over from Westwood and Cork as their legs went, oh hang on, I forgot, Dale Stephens was the answer to that problem

CT suggested earlier in the week that Chelsea approached us about the possibility of Ross Barkley

If that was the case then somebody at the club needs to shake their head as he is a major improvement on anything we have got

Our problem now is that, given our current struggles remain the same until Jan, we will find it hard to attract anyone to the club in the next window and certainly that includes Barkley

The biggest change in our fortunes has been goals conceded.
As the back 5 are not at the form they have been but are never the less not bad the problem has to be the layer in front of them. I’ve called, for a good while, for a true holding midfielder. Fill this roll and Westy and Brownhill would be fine in a 5 man midfield. As they are it doesn’t work. Neither of them gets into the opposition box, the lack of goals from both is a major negative, and they can’t stop players running through us at will.

We 100% need someone who can dictate in the middle of the park . We need to muddle on through til January and go make it a priority.

Coventrys Hamer is one I’d look at.
If the Barkley thing was of interest we rest you’d have to seriously consider that too.
John Swift is a decent player that never stepped up to the Prem from Reading. Another from them would be Ejaria but not sure how his development has gone .
Dennis Geiger of Hoffenheim would have been my choice at the beginning of the season, another former protege type player a bit like Cornet , who , in the right team would be a gem

Brownhill is struggling to get to Premier League level, but he is the only one of our 3 midfielders that gets anywhere close to effectively putting pressure on the opposition midfielders, occasionally actually winning possession and he’s the one that is pushed wide right out of position when all 3 centre mids play.
Cork sadly hasn’t got the physicality for this elite level anymore, although he gives it his all. Westwood just floats around the fringes, when the opposition have the ball and so obviously is the one best placed to make some passes when we have the ball.
To play all 3 yesterday but the Southampton keeper just rolled the ball out central and they just ran through us was painful to watch.
IMO that happened because Brownhill was wider right and Westwood and Cork central is too weak a pairing out of possession.
The answer for me is now the purchase or promotion of a fully competitive mobile central midfielder with Brownhill
Again and it’s just my opinion but I don’t think Cork or Westwood have the legs for this level now,
Brownhill doesn’t have the quality but he can learn that
The legs of the other two won’t return
Here’s where I blow my credibility, I wonder if when Mee returns that Collins could do that role, he’s young he’s fast he has footballing ability and he’s big so we could actually win the head ons
Just a thought

Agreed on CM needing more quality, but I think we need to change formation to fit in all our strongest players and possibly look at wingback making 5 in defence without the ball and 4 in midfield when attacking but Lowton wouldn't be quick enough for that so possibly Roberts , I also think Wood needs a rest.

I'm rubbish at the formation things but possibly..

https://img.startingeleven.co.uk/usr/a/ ... cb7506.jpg

Think we have to play three in there, which suddenly thrusts Stephens into the reckoning

He'd be perfectly fine in a three btw, but the question is whether having three in there counter balances our weaknesses more than affecting our attacking with only one striker

Cornets pace and skill levels suggest we might be worth taking the that risk, but its up to the manager

I mentioned on another thread that we’re short of just two players, a mobile centre forward and a ball winning midfielder that likes to get forward, I also went on to say that wouldn’t be easy for a number of reasons, especially financial but if we’re serious about staying up it’s a must. Had Loftus Cheek and Barkley not started to see regular first team action those two would have been ideal.

... Pieters?

beddie wrote: ↑

Sun Oct 24, 2021 12:05 pm

I mentioned on another thread that we’re short of just two players, a mobile centre forward and a ball winning midfielder that likes to get forward, I also went on to say that wouldn’t be easy for a number of reasons, especially financial but if we’re serious about staying up it’s a must. Had Loftus Cheek and Barkley not started to see regular first team action those two would have been ideal.

Loft is cheek is a dream. Without injuries he’d be incredible.

beddie wrote: ↑

Sun Oct 24, 2021 12:05 pm

I mentioned on another thread that we’re short of just two players, a mobile centre forward and a ball winning midfielder that likes to get forward, I also went on to say that wouldn’t be easy for a number of reasons, especially financial but if we’re serious about staying up it’s a must. Had Loftus Cheek and Barkley not started to see regular first team action those two would have been ideal.

Good post beddie. I would say the ball winning midfielder that can get forward is more of a pressing urgency than the mobile centre forward. It doesn’t matter who we have up front if we cannot get the ball to him often enough.
Sadly with our budget it would have to be a loanee in January as we cannot afford to gamble with a championship midfielder who may not adapt to the step up in class quickly enough. Ross Barkley would definitely fit the bill and I can still only seeing getting game time at Chelsea when they are winning easily like yesterday or in cup games. I would love to see him in a Burnley shirt come January.

It doesn't have to be someone quick or young, just someone with an ounce of composure on the ball and a touch of class. Romeu controlled the game Yesterday, I don't recall him wellying it long once. William Carvalho would be my choice, big strong 6ft 2 deep playmaker, calm assured and very good at running the game with the ball.

Regrettably our midfield has deteriorated over a few years now, and it reflects what seems to have been an increasing culture of undervaluing the importance of retaining possession. Dyche's first great team included David Jones, whose great strength was to simply keep the ball moving simply and economically, and there's a thread that runs through from there, through Defour and then Cork. It's no accident that our greatest team of this era had two midfielders at its heart who both prized keeping the ball - even when it involved going sideways or backwards rather than forwards. Since then, though, we have replaced Defour with Westwood, who is a good player but someone who Dyche has developed into a player who plays forwards almost at all costs, and allowed Cork to get to the point where he looks a shadow of his former self without replacing him - apart from to bring in Brownhill, who again appears to be more in the Westwood/Marney mould than the Jones/Cork/Defour mould.

Dyche has to take some of the responsibility for that.He also has to take some responsibility for the tendency to rely on the physicality of Barnes to get us up the pitch, which has both become increasingly ineffective - because Barnes is also fading force - and to the detriment of any attempt to play a more nuanced style of football. Burnley's decline in effectiveness and attractiveness have gone hand in hand. These days, not only would we be unable to score the 23 pass goal we scored at Everton in the 2017/2018 season - we'd never dream of trying to be that patient. And I agree with those who say that inability to keep the ball and slow the pace of the game down is the reason we seem to struggle to stem the momentum of our opponents on occasions like the 15 minutes before half time yesterday, or Everton's burst at Goodison.

What's the solution? There's no perfect one, but for ages now I've thought that our one player capable of holding the ball in tight spaces and finding a simple pass should be in a more central, prominent role. That's McNeil. I also think that might suit our other central midfielders better. There's lots of talk on this thread about what we lack being a mobile ball winning midfielder who can get forward. I think that describes Brownhill well. He's a bit limited, but he's very fit, wins his tackles and interceptions, very quick and makes intelligent forward runs. The trouble is that in a 4-4-2 the space to make those runs is often already filled by a forward, and if he's the attack minded of a midfield 3 there's a centre half expecting him, so I'm not sure we're exploiting those skills as we might. But if McNeil is playing as a third central midfielder and encouraged to drop deep - suddenly that is creating space for Brownhill to burst into from deep. Then you can pick one of Westwood (probably the best equipped, but a bit out of form currently), Cork or Stephens to play the deepest role. Flank JBG and Cornet and suddenly you've got the makings of a side which looks to carry a goal threat, and be better able to keep the ball.

It's not perfect - it asks a lot of McNeil certainly, JBG has is detractors, and there are probably doubts about Corney defensively in that 4-4-1-1 set up - but I reckon it's by some distance our best answer at present; it's a set up that most teams in the premier league would regard as conventional these days. The harsh truth is we probably needed either another midfielder in the Defour mould, or another winger to free McNeil to take that role. More particularly, it requires us to work from the first principle that we want to keep the ball better - and I'm not sure that's where we are as a squad right now. It makes me worry for a long winter ahead.

(Incidentally - fans have a role here - the sideways or backwards pass has long been derided on here for its lack of ambition, which i've always felt underrates its importance. Equally, if you try and keep the ball rather than just booting it forwards, occasionally even the best players will give it a way. Fans sometimes have to accept that - against Norwich too often it was when a player tried a progressive pass that Norwich read that the crowd got restless, not when the ball was tossed forwards a little more hopefully).

AlargeClaret wrote: ↑

Sat Oct 23, 2021 5:54 pm

While we all know our mid is a weak spot , I seriously thought Cork and Westwood were miles off today and were brushed aside with ease again and again . Brownhill huffs and puffs but when does he ever have a good game ?They were outpaced outclassed and outfought . The worst I’ve ever seen this midfield ,they simply couldn’t hang in at all . The alternatives are the past it JBG/Lennon . Hopefully a quality CM will be the board’s ( the actual board of directors!)priority as this midfield Is total relegation fodder .

I have to disagree, there were some really bright moments on our right in the first half involving Westwood Brownhill Lowton and McNeill. Ridiculous refereeing at times.
Where we were let down yesterday was some erratic defending from Charlie Taylor, and a silly head in the hand moment from JT allowing Southampton to take the lead.
Thank goodness for Supermax.

I never thought I'd ever say this but I think I'd play Stephens over Westwood/Cork.

Can we get any worse?

Yes, we could re-sign Hendrick

KRBFC wrote: ↑

Sun Oct 24, 2021 1:44 pm

I never thought I'd ever say this but I think I'd play Stephens over Westwood/Cork.

That won’t help us and would answer the OP ‘s question as a yes.

Just ask Cornet if he knows an African Patrick Viera type player, we certainly need someone of that ilk in January.