Blue moon general football Forum.

[Terrier]

Titled burnley.
If you read this they have took interest in our team since kompany took over, some like us others don't.
Just read what they had to say about yesterday and to be fair they talk a lot of sense especially the Everton 4 v 0 City comment!

[Hipper]

https://forums.bluemoon-mcfc.co.uk/thre ... 23.356160/

[Spijed]

Titled burnley.
If you read this they have took interest in our team since kompany took over, some like us others don't.
Just read what they had to say about yesterday and to be fair they talk a lot of sense especially the Everton 4 v 0 City comment!

This was the analysis after that Everton game:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/38632357

[Top Claret]

Their spot on about the defending of balls into the box its been a problem all season.
Beyer is a decent footballer but is he physically strong enough and tall enough to be a quality defender, he doesn't look much above 6'0" when the required height is 6'2" minimum these days

[Rowls]

Their spot on about the defending of balls into the box its been a problem all season.
Beyer is a decent footballer but is he physically strong enough and tall enough to be a quality defender, he doesn't look much above 6'0" when the required height is 6'2" minimum these days

Ben Mee is 5'11"

[Top Claret]

Ben Mee is 5'11"

You wouldn't have seen Ben Mee get bullied yesterday like you saw Beyer, he looked out of his depth as a defender although he is excellent with the ball

[Pickles]

Unless I'm mistaken, wasn't Kompany the more physically imposing one of the centre back pair during his years at City? If anyone knows the value of that kind of player in a team set up like ours, then it's him.

[IanMcL]

Their spot on about the defending of balls into the box its been a problem all season.
Beyer is a decent footballer but is he physically strong enough and tall enough to be a quality defender, he doesn't look much above 6'0" when the required height is 6'2" minimum these days

Not sure Tarkowski and Mee make your requirement.

Central defenders boss their box. Ours don't - yet.

[Spijed]

Unless I'm mistaken, wasn't Kompany the more physically imposing one of the centre back pair during his years at City? If anyone knows the value of that kind of player in a team set up like ours, then it's him.

I was surprised we didn't get an experienced centre half.

[Conroysleftfoot]

You wouldn't have seen Ben Mee get bullied yesterday like you saw Beyer, he looked out of his depth as a defender although he is excellent with the ball

How would Ben Mee have coped at the age of 22 with only 8 games under his belt in the English Championship after growing up and playing his football in Germany? Also playing alongside a 20 year old centre half who, admittedly, has played more games in this league but is also still learning his trade.

[Top Claret]

How would Ben Mee have coped at the age of 22 with only 8 games under his belt in the English Championship after growing up and playing his football in Germany? Also playing alongside a 20 year old centre half who, admittedly, has played more games in this league but is also still learning his trade.

Exactly we need an experienced CB when playing the like of Sheffield United. Long would have been my choice yesterday to play along side Taylor, he would have done a job on McBurney

[wilks_bfc]

I was surprised we didn't get an experienced centre half.

I’ve said this all along

Somebody like Gary Cahill would have been an ideal signing for us

[arise_sir_charge]

Love how Long is considered experienced because he’s older.

THB has played more football at this level than Long.

[boatshed bill]

I’ve said this all along

Somebody like Gary Cahill would have been an ideal signing for us

Yep,

10 years ago

[Swizzlestick]

I’ve said this all along

Somebody like Gary Cahill would have been an ideal signing for us

I suspect Cahill is still without a club for a reason. Difficult to get those types of players in and sufficiently fit. I’m surprised we haven’t seen a bit more of McNally, who appears to be more of a ‘traditional’ centre back.

[Devils_Advocate]

Its worth noting that Kompany has set us up to dominate games in terms of possession and attacking play giving us less to defend and Beyer and TBH are big factors in helping us do this. The trade off is that when teams do attack us we are not as strong and always look like we might concede.

We could bring in big strong defenders and more defensive minded full backs but whist Im sure we'd defend better at the same time we'd attack less and have to defend a lot more.

If your fighting for your lives at the bottom of the table against better teams then you need to be solid at the back so you can grind out the draws and pinch the odd wins. If you wanna win the league then you need to dominate teams and win matches and despite yesterdays second half horror show we're top of the league so that trade off I mentioned is obviously working.

If we was in a position to keep our best players like Tarks, Collins, Dwight, Cornet then Im sure we could have been a balance of the two like Dyche's title winning team but with the debt hanging over us we didnt have that luxury and I think the route Kompany decided to take is proving a great decision in terms of Performance, results and entertainment

[ClaretPete001]

Its worth noting that Kompany has set us up to dominate games in terms of possession and attacking play giving us less to defend and Beyer and TBH are big factors in helping us do this. The trade off is that when teams do attack us we are not as strong and always look like we might concede.

We could bring in big strong defenders and more defensive minded full backs but whist Im sure we'd defend better at the same time we'd attack less and have to defend a lot more.

If your fighting for your lives at the bottom of the table against better teams then you need to be solid at the back so you can grind out the draws and pinch the odd wins. If you wanna win the league then you need to dominate teams and win matches and despite yesterdays second half horror show we're top of the league so that trade off I mentioned is obviously working.

If we was in a position to keep our best players like Tarks, Collins, Dwight, Cornet then Im sure we could have been a balance of the two like Dyche's title winning team but with the debt hanging over us we didnt have that luxury and I think the route Kompany decided to take is proving a great decision in terms of Performance, results and entertainment

It is this season when we have the biggest budget and best players in the division but not necessarily a long term solution if you want to be in the PL next season.

[Rileybobs]

Ben Mee is 5'11"

Which goes to show that signing a 6’4” defender will not necessarily solve our problems. THB and Beyer’s weakness is not their lack of height, it’s that they’re not combative in the air.

[bumba]

You wouldn't have seen Ben Mee get bullied yesterday like you saw Beyer, he looked out of his depth as a defender although he is excellent with the ball

Ben Mee was forced to play left back at 22 because he got bullied so much at centre half in the championship

[Top Claret]

Ben Mee was forced to play left back at 22 because he got bullied so much at centre half in the championship

Good point

[Rileybobs]

Love how Long is considered experienced because he’s older.

THB has played more football at this level than Long.

Long is considered experienced because he’s experienced. He’s been a professional footballer for 14 years and has made over 150 club appearances, a good number of which were in the Premier League. He has also represented his country 17 times.

I have played more football in the Leeds Red Triangle league than Ronaldo but I don’t think that makes me more experienced.

[CleggHall]

Not the Leeds Red Triangle League!

[Devils_Advocate]

It is this season when we have the biggest budget and best players in the division but not necessarily a long term solution if you want to be in the PL next season.

We've got some of the best players cos we used the loan market that you moan about effectively. With the financial situation we are probably gonna need to yo-yo for a season or two but every season we remain in this division our budget and standard of players are likely to decreases.

Id rather be in the Premier League next season battling to survive in the knowledge that should we fail we are likely again to be one of the top teams in the championship than stay down and be up against the 3 relegated teams who should be financially stronger and have a better squad than us

[daveisaclaret]

Long is considered experienced because he’s experienced. He’s been a professional footballer for 14 years and has made over 150 club appearances, a good number of which were in the Premier League. He has also represented his country 17 times.

I have played more football in the Leeds Red Triangle league than Ronaldo but I don’t think that makes me more experienced.

He's played about 2 seasons' worth of football in the last decade. And also he's crap.

[Rileybobs]

He's played about 2 seasons' worth of football in the last decade. And also he's crap.

Would you not say that Kevin Long is experienced?

[daveisaclaret]

Would you not say that Kevin Long is experienced?

Not particularly. Suppose it's quite contextual. He has played some football but I wouldn't say he's an experienced player in a notable way like I would of Ben Mee for example or in a way that makes me feel any better about his ability as a footballer. A career spent as a fringe player, never in his life been the senior central defender (apart from maybe loan spells in League One going on for a decade ago).

The idea that he'd improve the organisation of our defence or be a helpful figure to Harwood-Bellis or Beyer (who are both better than him) is quite laughable. So I think calling him "experienced" in a meaningful way would be outright wrong.

[claretspice]

Long has played 150 games. That's not exactly loads, but it's enough to have learned the game and have experience THB and Beyer lack. I'm unsure if Long is a talker on the pitch but equally I don't know he isn't.

The idea of playing Long on occasions isn't therefore a terrible one on those terms. Suspect the reason it won't happen is that it's increasingly obvious that Kompany wants his centre backs to be quarterbacks and if anything their ability to play lime breaking passes is more important than that of the central midfielders.

Beyer is 6"2 but he's not physically imposing and that has been apparent at times in the last 3-4 games. Kompany knows all this - that's why the boy at Metz was plan A. It wouldn't be a surprise if we sought a more physical centre half in January and shifted Beyer to right back.

[Rileybobs]

Not particularly. Suppose it's quite contextual. He has played some football but I wouldn't say he's an experienced player in a notable way like I would of Ben Mee for example or in a way that makes me feel any better about his ability as a footballer. A career spent as a fringe player, never in his life been the senior central defender (apart from maybe loan spells in League One going on for a decade ago).

The idea that he'd improve the organisation of our defence or be a helpful figure to Harwood-Bellis or Beyer (who are both better than him) is quite laughable. So I think calling him "experienced" in a meaningful way would be outright wrong.

I haven’t suggested that he would improve our defence, not that you’re saying I have. But Kevin Long has been part of matchday squads for 14 years and has played at international level and many times in the Premier League. During this time he has trained on a daily basis with Premier League quality players. It’s laughable to claim that he’s not experienced.

[daveisaclaret]

I haven’t suggested that he would improve our defence, not that you’re saying I have. But Kevin Long has been part of matchday squads for 14 years and has played at international level and many times in the Premier League. During this time he has trained on a daily basis with Premier League quality players. It’s laughable to claim that he’s not experienced.

But surely the salient point is whether his experience gives him, or by extension us, any actual benefits. Like, I don't see why playing 17 teams over 4 years for a very poor Ireland team is automatically a beneficial thing. It feels pedantic to insist he's experienced based on (a quite small) number of appearances without examining whether it makes him a better player in any way.

[Rowls]

Which goes to show that signing a 6’4” defender will not necessarily solve our problems. THB and Beyer’s weakness is not their lack of height, it’s that they’re not combative in the air.

Yup. It's not a problem of height.

We failed to even make a challenge on many the balls into our box yesterday. Their second goal, for example, see two unchallenged headers in our box.

[Rileybobs]

But surely the salient point is whether his experience gives him, or by extension us, any actual benefits. Like, I don't see why playing 17 teams over 4 years for a very poor Ireland team is automatically a beneficial thing. It feels pedantic to insist he's experienced based on (a quite small) number of appearances without examining whether it makes him a better player in any way.

To be honest we’ve strayed well away from the post I was responding to which was;

Love how Long is considered experienced because he’s older.

THB has played more football at this level than Long.

That suggests that somehow THB is more experienced than Long because he’s made more Championship appearances. It also claims that Long is only considered experienced because of his age, which just isn’t true.

I haven’t suggested he’s a better player than THB or would improve our defence. Although I think we could sacrifice one of our ball-playing centre backs for a more physically dominant defender against tougher opposition. And indeed if we got promoted I’m certain we would have to do. I’m not suggesting that Long is that player, and VK clearly doesn’t see him in his plans so we should be doing our utmost to bring in someone to take his place in the squad.

[Rowls]

The sooner we start actually marking players rather than marking zones the better.

I've never seen an unmarked zone score a goal in my life.

[Rileybobs]

Yup. It's not a problem of height.

We failed to even make a challenge on many the balls into our box yesterday. Their second goal, for example, see two unchallenged headers in our box.

True that. At the very least the player challenging should be putting the attacker off balance and making it as awkward as possible for them to get a clean head to the ball.

[Rileybobs]

The sooner we start actually marking players rather than marking zones the better.

I've never seen an unmarked zone score a goal in my life.

I’d like to see defenders on the post too.

[Dark Cloud]

Its worth noting that Kompany has set us up to dominate games in terms of possession and attacking play giving us less to defend and Beyer and TBH are big factors in helping us do this. The trade off is that when teams do attack us we are not as strong and always look like we might concede.

We could bring in big strong defenders and more defensive minded full backs but whist Im sure we'd defend better at the same time we'd attack less and have to defend a lot more.

If your fighting for your lives at the bottom of the table against better teams then you need to be solid at the back so you can grind out the draws and pinch the odd wins. If you wanna win the league then you need to dominate teams and win matches and despite yesterdays second half horror show we're top of the league so that trade off I mentioned is obviously working.

If we was in a position to keep our best players like Tarks, Collins, Dwight, Cornet then Im sure we could have been a balance of the two like Dyche's title winning team but with the debt hanging over us we didnt have that luxury and I think the route Kompany decided to take is proving a great decision in terms of Performance, results and entertainment

TBH there's a lot in this. VK must know that we're very suspect to high balls, especially close to our goal, but he also wants to play possession based football with skillful players in every position who are comfortable on the ball and can play passes under pressure and rarely, if ever simply "get rid". At places like City etc you get world class defenders who can comfortably challenge in the air when required, but play intricate tip, tap football the next minute. Kompany himself was one. Stones arguably is and so is Van Dyke and it's fantastic to get that balance of ability. Those players are rare and are world class. I honestly think Kompany is consciously gambling on us having the vast majority of possession in games and if we do concede we'll always score more because he recognises that to have 2 excellent ball playing CBs we have sacrificed the ability to defend bread and butter high balls effectively. Ben Mee was a superb example of the opposite end of the scale with his ability to read the game and win header after header, but could only really play the long punt when in possession. When it works as it has for most of the season, we look good and nobody carps on too much about the dodgy defending, but at times like yesterday, against quality opposition we can be made to look extremely average at best. I don't know what the answer is, but I really don't think VK will alter things too much because we won't play Sheffield Utd every week and I believe he will (rightly) stick to his footballing principles, even if things get really sticky.

[Spijed]

TBH there's a lot in this. VK must know that we're very suspect to high balls, especially close to our goal, but he also wants to play possession based football with skillful players in every position who are comfortable on the ball and can play passes under pressure and rarely, if ever simply "get rid". At places like City etc you get world class defenders who can comfortably challenge in the air when required, but play intricate tip, tap football the next minute. Kompany himself was one. Stones arguably is and so is Van Dyke and it's fantastic to get that balance of ability. Those players are rare and are world class. I honestly think Kompany is consciously gambling on us having the vast majority of possession in games and if we do concede we'll always score more because he recognises that to have 2 excellent ball playing CBs we have sacrificed the ability to defend bread and butter high balls effectively. Ben Mee was a superb example of the opposite end of the scale with his ability to read the game and win header after header, but could only really play the long punt when in possession. When it works as it has for most of the season, we look good and nobody carps on too much about the dodgy defending, but at times like yesterday, against quality opposition we can be made to look extremely average at best. I don't know what the answer is, but I really don't think VK will alter things too much because we won't play Sheffield Utd every week and I believe he will (rightly) stick to his footballing principles, even if things get really sticky.

Even I'm coming round to the fact we'll probably have to score at least two goals to win most matches. If it gets us promoted I'm all for that.

[Stayingup]

Ben Mee is 5'11"

Yes but he can jump and is a superb header of the ball - with power.

[dougcollins]

Ben Mee was forced to play left back at 22 because he got bullied so much at centre half in the championship

I don't remember it like that , pretty sure he arrived here from City as a LB?

[claretspice]

TBH there's a lot in this. VK must know that we're very suspect to high balls, especially close to our goal, but he also wants to play possession based football with skillful players in every position who are comfortable on the ball and can play passes under pressure and rarely, if ever simply "get rid". At places like City etc you get world class defenders who can comfortably challenge in the air when required, but play intricate tip, tap football the next minute. Kompany himself was one. Stones arguably is and so is Van Dyke and it's fantastic to get that balance of ability. Those players are rare and are world class. I honestly think Kompany is consciously gambling on us having the vast majority of possession in games and if we do concede we'll always score more because he recognises that to have 2 excellent ball playing CBs we have sacrificed the ability to defend bread and butter high balls effectively. Ben Mee was a superb example of the opposite end of the scale with his ability to read the game and win header after header, but could only really play the long punt when in possession. When it works as it has for most of the season, we look good and nobody carps on too much about the dodgy defending, but at times like yesterday, against quality opposition we can be made to look extremely average at best. I don't know what the answer is, but I really don't think VK will alter things too much because we won't play Sheffield Utd every week and I believe he will (rightly) stick to his footballing principles, even if things get really sticky.

I'm sure Kompany is making a calculation along those lines. It shouldn't be forgotten that Beyer was not plan A. That was the lad at Metz who I suspect would have added the missing physicality.

But I think what is being said needs putting it context. I don't think anyone (sensible or sober) is arguing that the principles need ditching entirely, or really at all. They are plenty of games in which especially with Cork and Cullen as a double shield and Jay and Brownhill offering more physical presence higher up the pitch and helping back at set plays, there are plenty of games in which Maatsen and Vitinho are absolutely fine together. They are both perfectly servicable defensively unless we're under real examination, particularly Vitinho.

But yesterday was a bit of an exception because Sheff U are pretty direct, physical side and good at it too. That makes them a different proposition from everyone else we've played. We were also without Brownhill and Jay so we lost that physicality and leadership. In those circumstances in particular, I do think in those games allowance has to made.

Keep the ball playing centre backs, keep the possession focused midfield, keep the wide lads high and wide, but ensure that the full backs stiffen the back four, particularly in the air, and add a bit of experience. When Rodriguez and Brownhill are fit that is literally the only allowance we're talking about and then only for the biggest defensive tests. It's the same principle which meant Rhodri more recently and Kompany before always started for City at Turf Moor.

Blackburn and QPR aren't as good or as physical as Sheffield United from what ive seen but my impression is that they're certainly more imposing than, say Swansea and some allowance will have to be made. It might be that the presence of Rodriguez and Brownhill mean it's just trading one slightly more defensively robust full back for one that is more pragmatic and better in the air - bit if that's Charlie for Vitinho or Maatsen we're hardly bringing in Mark Winstanley. We're talking someone with a very good left footed pass in their own right.

[Rowls]

Yes but he can jump and is a superb header of the ball - with power.

Yes, the point being we need the players to jump and head with power like Ben Mee. We need the good defenders we already have to mark men at corners, set pieces and when the ball is lumped into our box.

What we do NOT need is suddenly to go out and buy several tall lumps. Otherwise Lee Howey would be the solution to the problem, which he evidently is not.

[Dark Cloud]

I'm sure Kompany is making a calculation along those lines. It shouldn't be forgotten that Beyer was not plan A. That was the lad at Metz who I suspect would have added the missing physicality.

But I think what is being said needs putting it context. I don't think anyone (sensible or sober) is arguing that the principles need ditching entirely, or really at all. They are plenty of games in which especially with Cork and Cullen as a double shield and Jay and Brownhill offering more physical presence higher up the pitch and helping back at set plays, there are plenty of games in which Maatsen and Vitinho are absolutely fine together. They are both perfectly servicable defensively unless we're under real examination, particularly Vitinho.

But yesterday was a bit of an exception because Sheff U are pretty direct, physical side and good at it too. That makes them a different proposition from everyone else we've played. We were also without Brownhill and Jay so we lost that physicality and leadership. In those circumstances in particular, I do think in those games allowance has to made.

Keep the ball playing centre backs, keep the possession focused midfield, keep the wide lads high and wide, but ensure that the full backs stiffen the back four, particularly in the air, and add a bit of experience. When Rodriguez and Brownhill are fit that is literally the only allowance we're talking about and then only for the biggest defensive tests. It's the same principle which meant Rhodri more recently and Kompany before always started for City at Turf Moor.

Blackburn and QPR aren't as good or as physical as Sheffield United from what ive seen but my impression is that they're certainly more imposing than, say Swansea and some allowance will have to be made. It might be that the presence of Rodriguez and Brownhill mean it's just trading one slightly more defensively robust full back for one that is more pragmatic and better in the air - bit if that's Charlie for Vitinho or Maatsen we're hardly bringing in Mark Winstanley. We're talking someone with a very good left footed pass in their own right.

I've advocated moving Charlie T to left back on several occasions this season, simply to make that side more water tight. Not every game, but certain ones. He's had tons of experience there and he's actually no slouch going forward either, so at times I don't get the reluctance to slot him in there.

[Spijed]

Did Taylor play at left back when he came on yesterday as a dry run for future games, I wonder?

[Quicknick]

I wonder if Kompany is still interested in the African lad who plays for Metz.

[Cleveleys_claret]

Beyer was a late loan signing, we had our eyes on one or two other centre halves which didn't happen, one out of contract soon so would think we will be back in the market come January. Let's not forget this summer was a total re build job, there will be gaps, places filled by loan signings because our first options weren't available, or we weren't as attractive as a brand new side no one knew how we were going to do. Now if we go into Jan transfer window top, we will seem much more attractive and may be able to get one or two of our longer term prospects through the door

It's a process, they are gonna be quick fixes in place with an eye on the long term

[bobinho]

I was surprised we didn't get an experienced centre half.

Me too. Every good team has one. Every good team needs one.

Some on here are too content blowing smoke up THB’s arse to notice how average he is. Maybe it’s the “Man City” thing…. If he’d come from Bournemouth would anyone be raving about him? I think not. He could be good - really good - if he had someone alongside him to learn from. As it is he’s the mainstay of the defence and at the moment it looks too much for him.

[taio]

Me too. Every good team has one. Every good team needs one.

Some on here are too content blowing smoke up THB’s arse to notice how average he is. Maybe it’s the “Man City” thing…. If he’d come from Bournemouth would anyone be raving about him? I think not. He could be good - really good - if he had someone alongside him to learn from. As it is he’s the mainstay of the defence and at the moment it looks too much for him.

Yes, this average championship player is attracting interest from three other premier league clubs. You should gave a word with their scouts.

[ksrclaret]

I'd certainly hope we're looking at a dominant centre-half in January like the one Nixon linked us with from Metz (assuming McNally won't be considered to start this season).

Shift Beyer to right back (his natural position I think), get Charlie Taylor in at left back, Brownhill and Rodriguez back in the side, and suddenly we're a side who can play brilliant stuff and really hold their own in both boxes.

It's a no-brainer.

[RVclaret]

I'd certainly hope we're looking at a dominant centre-half in January like the one Nixon linked us with from Metz (assuming McNally won't be considered to start this season).

Shift Beyer to right back (his natural position I think), get Charlie Taylor in at left back, Brownhill and Rodriguez back in the side, and suddenly we're a side who can play brilliant stuff and really hold their own in both boxes.

It's a no-brainer.

Wouldn’t say dropping one of the most creative players in the league (Maatsen) is a no brainer. For the odd game, like yesterday and Millwall away, maybe, but he plays most games for me.

[ksrclaret]

Wouldn’t say dropping one of the most creative players in the league (Maatsen) is a no brainer. For the odd game, like yesterday and Millwall away, maybe, but he plays most games for me.

Let's just see what Charlie Taylor can do with a run of games at left back in this league.

[arise_sir_charge]

To be honest we’ve strayed well away from the post I was responding to which was;

Love how Long is considered experienced because he’s older.

THB has played more football at this level than Long.

That suggests that somehow THB is more experienced than Long because he’s made more Championship appearances. It also claims that Long is only considered experienced because of his age, which just isn’t true.

I haven’t suggested he’s a better player than THB or would improve our defence. Although I think we could sacrifice one of our ball-playing centre backs for a more physically dominant defender against tougher opposition. And indeed if we got promoted I’m certain we would have to do. I’m not suggesting that Long is that player, and VK clearly doesn’t see him in his plans so we should be doing our utmost to bring in someone to take his place in the squad.

I stand by the fact that Kevin Long isn’t an experienced player.

He’s featured in 23 games at this level and 48 at the level above despite being part of a squad that has been playing g at those levels throughout his near 13 year stay with us.

There is a reason he’s rarely featured and it’s because he’s not good enough.