Muric

[CoolClaret]

Iam not sure what you are saying is weird, you don't really say

But, I haven't seen a single poster who has been critical of the points you make, what people have been critical of is his basic goalkeeping, a point you don't cover

The way he’s keeping goal is vastly different to what we have seen for the past 10 years so much so that he doesn’t do much ‘basic goalkeeping’.

People fail to remember that Pope and Heaton had a lot more defensive coverage and bodies in between them and the attacking team -

Due to the way in which we set up by nature most of Muric’s defensive actions will be in frantic transitions, one on one’s/two on twos and require different skill set

I understand that in some instances his decision making could improve but we have to remember he’s 24 which is still super young for a goalkeeper.

If you wanted his ability now combined with the aerial ability of Nick Pope then we have a prime Manuel Neuer who most certainly wouldn’t be on our books.

[Swizzlestick]

Some players get cut a load of slack, currently in vogue is Ashley Barnes. He hasn't found the net in over 300 minutes...
but "he's great at defending set pieces".

I've given Barnes some serious stick over the years, and I'm not a fan of his antics, but this is a bit harsh - his forward play has been very important in creating the space and opportunities for Tella, Zaroury etc to exploit.

[boatshed bill]

I've given Barnes some serious stick over the years, and I'm not a fan of his antics, but this is a bit harsh - his forward play has been very important in creating the space and opportunities for Tella, Zaroury etc to exploit.

I'm not giving him any stick, just pointing out that excuses are being made in his case. He's not playing badly, but had he not scored against Rovers I doubt his failure to score since would have been glossed over.

[Swizzlestick]

I'm not giving him any stick, just pointing out that excuses are being made in his case. He's not playing badly, but had he not scored against Rovers I doubt his failure to score since would have been glossed over.

How is it being glossed over? He was one of the best players on the pitch against both PNE and Norwich without scoring? The forward's role in VK's setup isn't to be an out and out goal scorer. It's why we've had, what, 17(?) different goal scorers this year. I agree there shouldn't be too much thrown Muric's way but I don't see the comparison.

[boatshed bill]

How is it being glossed over? He was one of the best players on the pitch against both PNE and Norwich without scoring? The forward's role in VK's setup isn't to be an out and out goal scorer. It's why we've had, what, 17(?) different goal scorers this year. I agree there shouldn't be too much thrown Muric's way but I don't see the comparison.

That's fair enough, you don't have to.

[Nori1958]

The way he’s keeping goal is vastly different to what we have seen for the past 10 years so much so that he doesn’t do much ‘basic goalkeeping’.

And that's the point people are making

Next season it's his basic goalkeeping that will be required

Is it good enough? And from the posts on this thread, and others, many people don't think it will be.

[Pickles]

BPF doesn't have tge passing attributes of Muric but he did fine and is a better GOALKEEPER and that is the main criteria.

I'm just repeating myself at this point. The way Burnley play requires a keeper with the distribution skills Muric has. If a supporter can't see how fundamental that is to the way we play then I really can't fathom what on earth it is they've been watching at games.

Was it a bad mistake? Yes. Does Muric need to improve? Yes. Has he been key to our success this season? Yes, without any doubt whatsoever.

I know it's all opinions and that's great but the criticism is ridiculously extreme.

[CoolClaret]

And that's the point people are making

Next season it's his basic goalkeeping that will be required

Is it good enough? And from the posts on this thread, and others, many people don't think it will be.

Why do you think we’re gonna immediately change style?

We’re gonna go after teams, no reason why we will change play style at all.

[IanMcL]

I'm just repeating myself at this point. The way Burnley play requires a keeper with the distribution skills Muric has. If a supporter can't see how fundamental that is to the way we play then I really can't fathom what on earth it is they've been watching at games.

Was it a bad mistake? Yes. Does Muric need to improve? Yes. Has he been key to our success this season? Yes, without any doubt whatsoever.

I know it's all opinions and that's great but the criticism is ridiculously extreme.

No it is not!

The debate is not about his skills as a distributor, in a system which has seen us dominate opposition and hardly give them a shot. It is a forward looking question knowing that in the Prem, it is unlikely that we will dominate on the same way and that shots from opposition will be more and frequent during a match.

What we do know is that when called upon to do 'normal' keeper things, he consistently reveals flaws in just about every aspect!

So the balance is his sweeper role versus a keeper role in the Prem.

[Spijed]

Why do you think we’re gonna immediately change style?

We’re gonna go after teams, no reason why we will change play style at all.

The Watford game is a good indicator as to how teams will press us next season.

They have some Premier league standard players and they arguably pressed us better than any other team has done this season. As a result it was no where near as easy as the Preston match.

[ClaretPete001]

I'm just repeating myself at this point. The way Burnley play requires a keeper with the distribution skills Muric has. If a supporter can't see how fundamental that is to the way we play then I really can't fathom what on earth it is they've been watching at games.

Was it a bad mistake? Yes. Does Muric need to improve? Yes. Has he been key to our success this season? Yes, without any doubt whatsoever.

I know it's all opinions and that's great but the criticism is ridiculously extreme.

He has been key to our success but so has Jack Cork Jay Rodriguez, Ashley Barnes and JBG but no one can seriously expect those players to be in the starting 11 next season.

The simple fact is he doesn't command his box, which is not an issue when you have 70 per cent possession but it is when you only have 50 per cent or less. The silly mistakes are neither here nor there - it happens - but Muric is simply not physically dominant enough to command his box and at his age he is unlikely to change too much because that it is more of a personality issue than one of ability.

He is a supremely gifted goalkeeper - no doubt - but he flaps when under pressure.

You may agree or disagree but it's not a ridiculous point to suggest that his issues will be much bigger in the PL than in the EFL.

[Nori1958]

Why do you think we’re gonna immediately change style?

We’re gonna go after teams, no reason why we will change play style at all.

Did I say that?

Whatever style we play, our goalkeeper will have far more shots, crosses and balls into the box to deal with next season than they have had to this season

My view, and that of many others is that Muric might not be good enough in those areas

[NewClaret]

He has been key to our success but so has Jack Cork Jay Rodriguez, Ashley Barnes and JBG but no one can seriously expect those players to be in the starting 11 next season.

The simple fact is he doesn't command his box, which is not an issue when you have 70 per cent possession but it is when you only have 50 per cent or less. The silly mistakes are neither here nor there - it happens - but Muric is simply not physically dominant enough to command his box and at his age he is unlikely to change too much because that it is more of a personality issue than one of ability.

He is a supremely gifted goalkeeper - no doubt - but he flaps when under pressure.

You may agree or disagree but it's not a ridiculous point to suggest that his issues will be much bigger in the PL than in the EFL.

Are you assuming he just cannot improve claret Pete?

I would say every single one of our team will need to make big improvements to their games to compete at PL level. But their ages and development this season gives me high confidence that they will. Muric included.

[Pickles]

The debate is not about his skills as a distributor, in a system which has seen us dominate opposition and hardly give them a shot. It is a forward looking question knowing that in the Prem, it is unlikely that we will dominate on the same way and that shots from opposition will be more and frequent during a match.

There is no-one saying he hasn't made mistakes, and that he needs to improve. But in terms of next season - it's hypothetical. He may be good enough, he may not. He may improve, he may not. But this season - a hugely successful one - he has been pivotal. And that isn't hypothetical. Without Muric or someone with his skillset I truly believe we wouldn't be top by the margin we are. I've genuinely seen people on the Turf make more noise when Muric makes a mistake (a rare pass out of play for example) than they do when Burnley get a corner or have a shot saved. It's bizarre but even more so during such a brilliant season.

[warksclaret]

He has been key to our success but so has Jack Cork Jay Rodriguez, Ashley Barnes and JBG but no one can seriously expect those players to be in the starting 11 next season.

The simple fact is he doesn't command his box, which is not an issue when you have 70 per cent possession but it is when you only have 50 per cent or less. The silly mistakes are neither here nor there - it happens - but Muric is simply not physically dominant enough to command his box and at his age he is unlikely to change too much because that it is more of a personality issue than one of ability.

He is a supremely gifted goalkeeper - no doubt - but he flaps when under pressure.

You may agree or disagree but it's not a ridiculous point to suggest that his issues will be much bigger in the PL than in the EFL.

Once you get to the Prem the pundits will be on you like hawks-his basic defending goal keeping skills are already a pundit topic on SKY's coverage of Championship games. Teams in the PL too will single him out, and some of the teasing crosses you get in the PL are sublime. There are also ample big physical players in the PL who he will come up against. Will be a totally different ball game. We will be truly under the cosh in the PL,against most sides when basic defending becomes more important than his undoubted distribution skills, and we will get punished if we dont address the balance. I am pretty certain VK is already planning hence the links

[CoolClaret]

Can’t think of many teams in the Prem that play two up top and cross the ball/lump the ball into the box tbh.

[Nori1958]

Can’t think of many teams in the Prem that play two up top and cross the ball/lump the ball into the box tbh.

Not sure who's suggested teams lump the ball....

Plenty of balls into the box at arsenal last night, from varying angles which the keepers had to deal with.

If you don't think our keeper will have more work to do, I'll leave it

[Elizabeth]

Really this should be about the present not the future.

My interest at the moment is focussed on who is chosen to play in goal at the weekend

[ClaretPete001]

Are you assuming he just cannot improve claret Pete?

I would say every single one of our team will need to make big improvements to their games to compete at PL level. But their ages and development this season gives me high confidence that they will. Muric included.

Given Jay Rod and Jack Cork are 34 that's a big assumption. Barnes and JBG are no spring chickens either...

Most of the players have PL or other top league experience and will have worked with good coaches to get to this point.

I don't think you can expect big improvements. I'm hoping the big difference is that VK is able to maximise their potential as opposed to improving their performance that seems much more achievable.

As for Muric, confidence is an odd thing De Gea can be a keeper that is largely very good and then for periods looks like a shambles so hopefully Muric can do the same.

I love watching him tbh I genuinely hope he can become a little more assertive and aggressive in the box.

[claretonthecoast1882]

Really this should be about the present not the future.

My interest at the moment is focussed on who is chosen to play in goal at the weekend

As last season neared the end we had to listen to how we will have no squad and be unable to cope in this division. Then we started signing players and most were crap or had no end product or were being signed on the cheap. Then the next part became only the loan signings or the few remaining from the previous season were any good. It is only fitting that some start to focus now on who won't be good enough next season

[RVclaret]

As last season neared the end we had to listen to how we will have no squad and be unable to cope in this division. Then we started signing players and most were crap or had no end product or were being signed on the cheap. Then the next part became only the loan signings or the few remaining from the previous season were any good. It is only fitting that some start to focus now on who won't be good enough next season

Haha - spot on.

[arise_sir_charge]

As last season neared the end we had to listen to how we will have no squad and be unable to cope in this division. Then we started signing players and most were crap or had no end product or were being signed on the cheap. Then the next part became only the loan signings or the few remaining from the previous season were any good. It is only fitting that some start to focus now on who won't be good enough next season

As accurate a post as you will ever see on this forum.

[Nori1958]

As accurate a post as you will ever see on this forum.

Apart from the bits that are wrong

[claretonthecoast1882]

Apart from the bits that are wrong

Care to expand which bits are wrong ?

[Nori1958]

1. Don't remember discussions about signings being crap

2. Which players had no end product ?

3. You have to plan for next season, I guarantee that the club will be, looking at which players will be good enough, and who won't

4. Again , don't remember discussions about loan players being the only good ones

I only remember positives comments when players were signed, yet it appears it was all doom and gloom

[JarrowClaret]

1. Don't remember discussions about signings being crap

2. Which players had no end product ?

3. You have to plan for next season, I guarantee that the club will be, looking at which players will be good enough, and who won't

4. Again , don't remember discussions about loan players being the only good ones

I only remember positives comments when players were signed, yet it appears it was all doom and gloom

There was definitely several posters when we were drawing lots of games saying our best players were the ones on loan and here last season. This was before Benson and Zaroury started playing consistently and was round when Muric made a couple of mistakes Blackpool game or just after maybe

[IanMcL]

Really this should be about the present not the future.

My interest at the moment is focussed on who is chosen to play in goal at the weekend

The title being Muric, surely that means past, present and future?

[Nori1958]

There was definitely several posters when we were drawing lots of games saying our best players were the ones on loan and here last season. This was before Benson and Zaroury started playing consistently and was round when Muric made a couple of mistakes Blackpool game or just after maybe

I read the post to be saying the players were crap, cheap, no end product when they were signed, before they played.

[JTClaret]

His traditional goalkeeping skills leave a lot to be desired, as you say, but its these skills that will be required more next year
I don't think people are waiting to say I told you so.... Just pointing out the bloomin obvious

Agreed. Although it needs to be acknowledged that his other attributes are also bloomin obvious

[Elizabeth]

The title being Muric, surely that means past, present and future?

Well yes Ian but how more is there to say about the future that hasn’t already been said ?

[IanMcL]

Well yes Ian but how more is there to say about the future that hasn’t already been said ?

The thing with the future, Elizabeth is that anything can be stated, without knowledge or evidence!

[Nori1958]

Agreed. Although it needs to be acknowledged that his other attributes are also bloomin obvious

It has been, many many times by probably 99% of posters on here

[Pickles]

As last season neared the end we had to listen to how we will have no squad and be unable to cope in this division. Then we started signing players and most were crap or had no end product or were being signed on the cheap. Then the next part became only the loan signings or the few remaining from the previous season were any good. It is only fitting that some start to focus now on who won't be good enough next season

Sense! A brilliant post.

[Vegas Claret]

The Watford game is a good indicator as to how teams will press us next season.

They have some Premier league standard players and they arguably pressed us better than any other team has done this season. As a result it was no where near as easy as the Preston match.

I honestly think the midfield in particular is the one area we will upgrade this summer if we go up

[arise_sir_charge]

There were most certainly posts saying that we were replacing “prem” quality with unproven and cheap foreign imports.

There were most certainly posts saying that the pain players were the only good players we’d brought in as I distinctly remember posting to say that they should be as the had previous champ/prem experience where as a number of the perm players it was their first gig in the UK and they’d need time to adjust.

[Rileybobs]

There were most certainly posts saying that we were replacing “prem” quality with unproven and cheap foreign imports.

Which is exactly what we did.

[Casper2]

There were most certainly posts saying that we were replacing “prem” quality with unproven and cheap foreign imports.

Maybe because that’s what happened

[boatshed bill]

How is it being glossed over? He was one of the best players on the pitch against both PNE and Norwich without scoring? The forward's role in VK's setup isn't to be an out and out goal scorer. It's why we've had, what, 17(?) different goal scorers this year. I agree there shouldn't be too much thrown Muric's way but I don't see the comparison.

I'll go back to this now.
First his being one of the best players on the pitch is your opinion, you are entitled to it of course.
But you have done exactly what I said; you have found other positives to justify Barnes' selection, just as many others have. I wish a few of Muric's detractors would do the same for him but it seems so many can't wait to put him down.

[Nori1958]

I'll go back to this now.
First his being one of the best players on the pitch is your opinion, you are entitled to it of course.
But you have done exactly what I said; you have found other positives to justify Barnes' selection, just as many others have. I wish a few of Muric's detractors would do the same for him but it seems so many can't wait to put him down.

Even Murics biggest supporters on here admit he needs to improve parts of his goalkeeping, I just don't get the finger pointing at those who point out those parts.

I don't see anyone critical of his passing etc, so who do you class as a distractor?

[boatshed bill]

Even Murics biggest supporters on here admit he needs to improve parts of his goalkeeping, I just don't get the finger pointing at those who point out those parts.

I don't see anyone critical of his passing etc, so who do you class as a distractor?

I don't think anyone is denying that there is room for improvement.

[Swizzlestick]

I'll go back to this now.
First his being one of the best players on the pitch is your opinion, you are entitled to it of course.
But you have done exactly what I said; you have found other positives to justify Barnes' selection, just as many others have. I wish a few of Muric's detractors would do the same for him but it seems so many can't wait to put him down.

It’s not just my opinion - check the respective player ratings threads. I have waxed lyrical about Muric on here - I gave him a 9 against PNE, thought his play was sublime - but his error directly lead to a goal on Tuesday. Barnes missing a chance or playing silly beggars with a defender isn’t equivalent. I think the vast majority of fans appreciate what Muric brings but can also see that he needs to improve big elements of his game, particularly if we’re playing at a higher level next year, which we most likely will be.

[boatshed bill]

It’s not just my opinion - check the respective player ratings threads. I have waxed lyrical about Muric on here - I gave him a 9 against PNE, thought his play was sublime - but his error directly lead to a goal on Tuesday. Barnes missing a chance or playing silly beggars with a defender isn’t equivalent. I think the vast majority of fans appreciate what Muric brings but can also see that he needs to improve big elements of his game, particularly if we’re playing at a higher level next year, which we most likely will be.

I think you are missing the points I am trying to make.
No-one is denying that error.
Very few posters are showing support to one of our players after a terrible blunder.
It's not as if he's the only one who makes them, how about supporting our players through difficulties?
I am specifically pointing at double standards here. Some are afforded errors, Muric clearly is not.
Forwards missing relatively easy chances cost points as well as goalkeepers' errors do.

[ClaretPete001]

I think you are missing the points I am trying to make.
No-one is denying that error.
Very few posters are showing support to one of our players after a terrible blunder.
It's not as if he's the only one who makes them, how about supporting our players through difficulties?
I am specifically pointing at double standards here. Some are afforded errors, Muric clearly is not.
Forwards missing relatively easy chances cost points as well as goalkeepers' errors do.

The problem with this argument Bill is that the 'double standard' you allude to is based on the premise that no other player gets criticised or that those who criticise Muric do not equally criticise other players.

Given the level of criticism on here, including the criticism that no one should discuss the future past Saturday that seems a little unlikely.

Therefore you are likely more guilty of the double standard that you accuse others of...!

The reality if you drop a ricker you are likely to get pelters.

Barnes (mentioned above), prior to his messiah like resurrection, was regarded as the donkey that wandered off Blackpool pleasure beach.

[Swizzlestick]

I think you are missing the points I am trying to make.
No-one is denying that error.
Very few posters are showing support to one of our players after a terrible blunder.
It's not as if he's the only one who makes them, how about supporting our players through difficulties?
I am specifically pointing at double standards here. Some are afforded errors, Muric clearly is not.
Forwards missing relatively easy chances cost points as well as goalkeepers' errors do.

Going round in circles here so final point - a forward missing a chance is not the same as a goalkeeper airkicking a ball directly leading to a goal. Muric has the support of pretty much all Clarets but you can‘t just blindly support and ignore a fundamental error that lead to a goal. It is fair to comment that he needs to improve on some fundamental skills. It is also fair to comment that his distribution is, usually, sensational. Both things happen on this forum. Fwiw, I think he’s going to be a fantastic keeper but work is needed both physically and maybe psychologically.

[boatshed bill]

Barnes (mentioned above), prior to his messiah like resurrection, was regarded as the donkey that wandered off Blackpool pleasure beach.

And they shouldn't have treated him like that either.
My point about Barnes is that he has basically bought a pass because of the Rovers game

[boatshed bill]

Going round in circles here so final point - a forward missing a chance is not the same as a goalkeeper airkicking a ball directly leading to a goal. Muric has the support of pretty much all Clarets but you can‘t just blindly support and ignore a fundamental error that lead to a goal. It is fair to comment that he needs to improve on some fundamental skills. It is also fair to comment that his distribution is, usually, sensational. Both things happen on this forum. Fwiw, I think he’s going to be a fantastic keeper but work is needed both physically and maybe psychologically.

Thankyou for that, and I totally agree with the most part of it.. I do think that a little more faith in AM might be beneficial all round, though.
As to the future? I'll leave that to Acora

[MT03ALG]

Goalkeeping errors obviously often lead to goals against more then outfield player errors. On Tuesday we actually played very well despite the doom and gloom of some posters. With just a moderate amount of luck we would have won the game quite comfortably. Watford had one shot on target i.e. the goal following the goalkeeping error. If Muric is well, he will be selected to play tomorrow.

[IanMcL]

And they shouldn't have treated him like that either.
My point about Barnes is that he has basically bought a pass because of the Rovers game

Not to mention every performance since!

[arise_sir_charge]

Which is exactly what we did.

I should maybe have realised that I needed to spell it out to you.

The posts were negative and essentially saying it was a race to bottom doing what we were doing. The premise was that these players couldn’t possible be anywhere near the quality of those that had been moved on.

I very much doubt we’d have been in the position we are now had we retained the “prem quality” old guard.

[Rileybobs]

I should maybe have realised that I needed to spell it out to you.

The posts were negative and essentially saying it was a race to bottom doing what we were doing. The premise was that these players couldn’t possible be anywhere near the quality of those that had been moved on.

I very much doubt we’d have been in the position we are now had we retained the “prem quality” old guard.

Well obviously it would have been helpful had you typed what you actually meant rather than expecting people to guess.