THB

[Clive 1960]

Could be playing today for the under 21 which will be a welcome boost to him and the team.

[Bowclaret]

Yes, great news. A massive reason why we are where we are - he was fantastic before His injury. Comes straight back in for me when he is ready.

[RVclaret]

Good news. I wonder if Jay / Benson will be involved too, given their lengthy spells out and need of match fitness.

[Clive 1960]

There's another under 21 in another week against Sheffield United so maybe jay and Benny might feature in that one if not today's game.

[Rileybobs]

Yes, great news. A massive reason why we are where we are - he was fantastic before His injury. Comes straight back in for me when he is ready.

Not too sure he will. Since his injury we have gone 13 games undefeated in all competitions and conceded just 4 goals. That said we were already at the start of that good run before his injury.

[4midable]

Hes still injured apparantly

[RVclaret]

Hes still injured apparantly

definitely training, Instagram pics yesterday

[Clive 1960]

Hes still injured apparantly

You find out this afternoon.

[warksclaret]

You find out this afternoon.

Really like TBH and think he was a fantastic loan signing and very much one for the future, however putting him straight into the starting 11 is very poor man management of Ekdal or Beyer who as a pair have been outstanding as shown by our recent GOALS AGAINST

We have been a tad unfortunate with injuries but lucky in that the depth of our squad has allowed others to come in and stand out in the team.With the games coming up at a pace in April, he will get his chance

[Goobs]

I am a massive fan of THB but no way he walks back into the team. Yes Ekdal has made the odd error but on the whole he has been superb and deserves his place in the team. Sure we will see THB before the season is out though assuming his injury is fully healed.

[Targetman]

Yes, great news. A massive reason why we are where we are - he was fantastic before His injury. Comes straight back in for me when he is ready.

Who would you leave out to accommodate him?

Both Ekdal and Beyer have been tremendous in recent games.

[dibraidio]

Did we have guaranteed number of games in the loan agreement? If it was 30 then he'll still need more games before the end of the season. It would make sense to rotate him and Ekdal when we play Saturday/Tuesday if we need to play him.

[Roosterbooster]

As good as we have been defensively since he was out, I think we miss his distribution. Of all our CBs, he is the one who can start an attack with one pass

[Tricky Trevor]

I wouldn’t like choose between them but I would always start in house over a loan player when they are so close.

[RVclaret]

As good as we have been defensively since he was out, I think we miss his distribution. Of all our CBs, he is the one who can start an attack with one pass

His distribution is really good and a major reason why City will want to tie him down to a new deal.

They probably will want to see how he gets on defensively in the PL too.

Look at his underlying passing data this season vs other Championship cb's (progressive passing ones in particular):

[4midable]

I wouldnt have him play again until one of the 2 are injured

[TopCat]

I think people are blinded by the fact Ekdal has come in and been superb, but THB is a level up, especially in moving us up the pitch and starting attacks.
Once fully fit, comes back for me, loanee or not.
I suspect we will have him next year anyway.

[Mattster]

As soon as he's fully fit he has to come straight back in to the starting 11 for me, he's our best CB and we've missed his passing ability at times. Ekdal has done very well but he's not at the same level as THB yet.

[summitclaret]

We have to find room in the starting 11 for all 3 of them. Either 343 or as 4123 with Bayer as the 1 (to replace Cork)

[RVclaret]

We have to find room in the starting 11 for all 3 of them. Either 343 or as 4123 with Bayer as the 1 (to replace Cork)

No, definitely not this

[tiger76]

Excellent to hear THB is back training again, although whether he'll come straight back into the side is a poser for VK.

I think must fans thought we'd really miss him, however those who have replaced him have turned out to be equally impressive,

A nice problem to have isn't it.

[Dark Cloud]

Who is actually the best of our current crop of 4 amazing first team CBs is imo a mute point. Beyer and Ekdal (or Al Dakil) haven't lost a game (yet,) so fit or not THB is going to be waiting a while I feel.

[Hipper]

His distribution is really good and a major reason why City will want to tie him down to a new deal.

They probably will want to see how he gets on defensively in the PL too.

Look at his underlying passing data this season vs other Championship cb's (progressive passing ones in particular):

Can you post (or show me where to find) Ekdal's similar stats, maybe Beyer's, and perhaps those of the best CB in the Championship.

[Lancasterclaret]

I think in a physical battle I'd prefer Ekdal over THB, but THB offers superb distribution

Nice to have that problem tbh

[RVclaret]

Can you post (or show me where to find) Ekdal's similar stats, maybe Beyer's, and perhaps those of the best CB in the Championship.

These links take you to the full report vs other Champ cb's for the two, scroll down and you'll see the passing section:

Ekdal: https://fbref.com/en/players/3d554589/s ... ing-Report

Beyer: https://fbref.com/en/players/9af1f9ff/s ... ing-Report

Other top Championship cb's you can manually search at the top of the page, then 'Complete Scouting Report' then you can click the '2022-23 Championship' comparison.

[jlup1980]

As soon as he's fully fit he has to come straight back in to the starting 11 for me, he's our best CB and we've missed his passing ability at times. Ekdal has done very well but he's not at the same level as THB yet.

We're in an unbelievable position of having a crop of highly talented CB. Ekdal and Al-Dakhil both look like they'll be excellent signings for us. Add Beyer and THB to the mix and I can't recall us having such strength in depth before.

They're all very comfortable on the ball and can all pick a pass (Ekdal's through ball for JBG vs Huddersfield for example) but Beyer's ability to carry the ball out from the back is unrivalled and something we haven't seen from a CB in decades. That's why he's the one we need to tie down on a permanent deal if we can. He will only get better, as will THB (but I don't think a permanent deal is likely), and it's frightening to think how good these lads could be with a few more years experience under their belts. What a great position to be in!!

[spt_claret]

Can you post (or show me where to find) Ekdal's similar stats, maybe Beyer's, and perhaps those of the best CB in the Championship.

I believe he's using FBRef.
Having difficulty getting it to present me the same overview for Ekdal as that one for Beyer but if you view Ekdal's profile, scroll to Passing then click to Toggle per 90 you get the same stats:
https://fbref.com/en/players/3d554589/H ... ts_passing
You get an overview of some of his stats and percentiles at the top.
From what I see:
Total passes attempted per 90 is 74.2 or 77.67 depending on which bit you look at (former includes his Djugardens stats, latter Burnley only). Total completion is 86.7 or 86.8%, higher than THB
Total distance 1418.6 yds per 90, progressive distance 471.3 yds per 90, so slightly less progressive but he'll likely still be in a high percentile.
Short (Under 15 yard) passes 23.2 completed, 26.5 attempted, 87.4% accuracy- passes short more often, slightly less accurate.
Medium (15-30 yard) passes-44.1 completed, 47.1 attempted, 93.7% accuracy- he passes midrange slightly more and is actually even more accurate than THB.
Long (>30 yard) passes-6.15 completed, 10.5 attempted, 58.5% accuracy- he goes long a lot less than THB and is less accurate.
Has no assists but his xAG is 0.05, Expected Assists 0.12 which means he's actually creating better goalscoring chances than THB, they've just not been finished.
Key passes 0.13 per 90, less than THB
Final third passes 5.26 per 90, slightly less than THB but I'd suspect still high.
Passes into penalty area- 0.18, less than THB.
Progressive passes- 5.26, slightly less than THB.

All in all his distribution is not all that far behind Bellis, his midrange passing is slightly better but his short passing not quite as good, he's creating similar or slightly better goalscoring chances but not quite as often as he passes less long/direct. Bellis's only significantly better stat for passing is above 30 yards.


What's also interesting to me is the defensive duties & possession. For Burnley only, Ekdal makes and wins more tackles than Bellis and has a slightly higher percentage success- 80 vs 74.1, and has won more tackles further up the pitch. They're similar on blocks, Bellis way ahead on interceptions. Ekdal makes slightly more recoveries per 90, Bellis wins slightly more headers in total but slightly lower percentage.

In possession, Ekdal attempts to take on more opposition players with the ball than THB- 0.64 vs 0.31 per 90- and succeeds more often- 60% to 50%. He's ahead on number of progressive carries and touches per 90, only marginally ahead on progressive distance carried per 90.
I'd like to see heatmaps as the data suggests that our defensive shape and line are given very different instructions with Beyer/Ekdal vs Beyer/THB. Both Beyer & Ekdal are given licence to come forwards more, whereas with THB in, he sits further back to play the long passes.

They're both excellent players and THB probably is better against a team that carries more pace and counter attacking threat as he'll be a bit more reserved and capable of intercepting, but I don't see how you drop Ekdal currently from a defence that is barely conceding and is refusing to lose.

[spt_claret]

These links take you to the full report vs other Champ cb's for the two, scroll down and you'll see the passing section:

Ekdal: https://fbref.com/en/players/3d554589/s ... ing-Report

Beyer: https://fbref.com/en/players/9af1f9ff/s ... ing-Report

Other top Championship cb's you can manually search at the top of the page, then 'Complete Scouting Report' then you can click the '2022-23 Championship' comparison.

Thanks for this, no idea how I've been missing that tab I use this site loads.

[spt_claret]

Ignore my first post, tried to delete it but too late.
Had errors anyway as I was reading off THB's stats for the past 365 days, not exclusively this season.
Here's all 3's pass stats per 90 specific to this season with Burnley so accounts for differences in games played. We're blessed with 3 tremendous ball players, THB goes long the most and is the most progressive, but Ekdal is actually marginally more accurate than THB long, and Beyer, despite doing it the least, by far the most accurate.

Beyer's passing is frankly astonishing in the Championship. 99th percentile in 8 separate statistics.

[Dark Cloud]

My perception (no stats) is that before January when THB was first choice at CB we were far more vulnerable to crosses and high balls and since January we have become much more secure in that department. There could be all sorts of reasons for this (e.g. Muric getting better at collecting high balls, Taylor featuring far ess at CB, VK improving the defensive coaching maybe), but I certainly have more faith in us defensively since the turn of the year whereas before I felt for all our brilliant, progressive, possession based, flowing footy, we were weirdly vulnerable to an inferior team's sucker punch.

[RVclaret]

Starting for the u21s confirmed

[Rileybobs]

If we are confident that we will retain THB in some capacity next season then there’s a good case that he would get back into the starting eleven. If not then why would we prioritise him ahead of our own player considering the title is won?

And I know it’s a squad game, but fairly normal to have a first choice central defensive pairing.

[KRBFC]

I think people are blinded by the fact Ekdal has come in and been superb, but THB is a level up, especially in moving us up the pitch and starting attacks.
Once fully fit, comes back for me, loanee or not.
I suspect we will have him next year anyway.

He's quite a distance better than Ekdal imo who is awfully slow and quite poor with the ball in comparison.

[Carport]

Didn’t THB have more misplaced passes than Ekdal? I’d stick with current pairing. If it ain’t broke….!

[Carport]

Didn’t THB have more misplaced passes than Ekdal? I’d stick with current pairing. If it ain’t broke….!

And I thought out build up play was slower with THB in the team than it is now

[HistoricalClaret]

And I thought out build up play was slower with THB in the team than it is now

How many long passes and diagonal switches does Ekdal make. THB is a far better distributor of the ball and that genuinely isnt up for debate plus none of this matters we have to play THB because hes has a game clause.

[RVclaret]

How many long passes and diagonal switches does Ekdal make. THB is a far better distributor of the ball and that genuinely isnt up for debate plus none of this matters we have to play THB because hes has a game clause.

I’d imagine there will be certain things inside the game clause such as lenience for injury. You can’t say ‘player needs to start 30 games’ and then he’s out injured for half a season, for example, it wouldn’t work.

[Foshiznik]

If THB was our player, i'd have him over Ekdal... just. Beyer is the defender a level above in our team imo.

[HistoricalClaret]

I’d imagine there will be certain things inside the game clause such as lenience for injury. You can’t say ‘player needs to start 30 games’ and then he’s out injured for half a season, for example, it wouldn’t work.

There will be but put it this way if he's fit he plays. City will be demanding as such

[Darnhill Claret]

How do we know there is a 'number of games clause' in the loan contract? I assume Vinnie has stated this fact in an interview or is it a guess that overtime has become 'fact'.

[Lancasterclaret]

How do we know there is a 'number of games clause' in the loan contract? I assume Vinnie has stated this fact in an interview or is it a guess that overtime has become 'fact'.

Pretty standard when premier league players are loaned out

We wouldn't have got THB or Maatsen without agreeing to one I think (Tella as well)

[aggi]

How do we know there is a 'number of games clause' in the loan contract? I assume Vinnie has stated this fact in an interview or is it a guess that overtime has become 'fact'.

I think we all know the answer to this. This board loves a wild theory becoming regurgitated fact.

[aggi]

Pretty standard when premier league players are loaned out

We wouldn't have got THB or Maatsen without agreeing to one I think (Tella as well)

This would be a more convincing argument if we didn't also have a Premier League loanee who had barely played (and plenty of other clubs do too).

[Lancasterclaret]

This would be a more convincing argument if we didn't also have a Premier League loanee who had barely played (and plenty of other clubs do too).

No, that is a fair point with the Brentford lad

I obviously don't know the details of the contracts or agreements, but I'd be amazed if THB or Maatsen didn't have one

Is that better?

[spt_claret]

He's quite a distance better than Ekdal imo who is awfully slow and quite poor with the ball in comparison.

Ekdal's passing has been more accurate than THB's for everything but short passes. He makes fewer but more accurate long passes. See above graphs.

As for general ball ability, here's some more comparisons:

CB Possession.jpeg (1.66 MiB) Viewed 1524 times

Bellis has the most penalty area carries which is a little surprising. He has the fewest dispossessions or miscontrols, but not a huge shock as he also has by some distance the fewest carries in general or final third, take-ons, progressive carries, carry distance, and touches in the midfield third. Ekdal has the most in the middle third, actually, and the most in the opposition box.
What's surprising is how Beyer has the least touches in general and in the opposition box. He carries it the furthest and by far the most accurately but ends up in the box with it the least.
All in all they're different in how they use the ball. Bellis sits deeper in general and, given he also has a good level of touches in the box, I'd say is better at using the ball from corners even if Ekdal might receive/win it more. Ekdal is better at carrying and using the ball in midfield.


And defence for comparisons:

CB Defence.jpeg (1.02 MiB) Viewed 1524 times

Bellis makes the most interceptions and fewest mistakes, Ekdal the lowest interceptions and most mistakes, but at the same time Ekdal is by far the best tackler and blocker. Bellis loses the fewest challenges but that's because he also attempts the fewest, he has the lowest completion percentage overall. Meanwhile Ekdal is the best at tackling and winning the ball high up the pitch. Ekdal also has higher recoveries, followed by Beyer, and by far the most aerial duels won, followed by THB- not on this screenshot as they're grouped under miscellaneous stats further down.

Ekdal is slower, sure, but people are mistaking volume of long passes with accuracy. He plays a different style to Bellis but he's actually more accurate and productive with the ball on a lot of measures, Bellis's sheer volume of long passes are what's skewing progressive pass distance in his favour as he goes direct the most of the three. He's also more error prone, yet paradoxically more likely to win the ball in the air, from a tackle, or a loose ball- the errors are likely because, like Beyer, he's carrying and pushing up a lot more than Bellis, who plays much more reserved than the other two.

[Falcon]

I'm just happy that we have such wonderful strength in depth.

Whichever combo Vinnie went for I'd be confident, and that includes McNally who is getting rave reviews down at Cov.

[spt_claret]

I'm just happy that we have such wonderful strength in depth.

Whichever combo Vinnie went for I'd be confident, and that includes McNally who is getting rave reviews down at Cov.

It's bizarre to be looking at our team and thinking "I wish we could figure out how to play 5 centre backs at once" because McNally's having a stormer on loan and I really like the looks of Al-Dakhil. We've got such insane depth in central defence that it feels a waste of the players to not play them.
Although I suspect in the Premier League, given the difference in playstyles being more towards pacy forwards rather than big forwards (and then you get freaks like Haaland), that THB would be the better option to Ekdal in the vast majority of games.

[KRBFC]

Ekdal's passing has been more accurate than THB's for everything but short passes. He makes fewer but more accurate long passes. See above graphs.

As for general ball ability, here's some more comparisons:
CB Possession.jpeg
Bellis has the most penalty area carries which is a little surprising. He has the fewest dispossessions or miscontrols, but not a huge shock as he also has by some distance the fewest carries in general or final third, take-ons, progressive carries, carry distance, and touches in the midfield third. Ekdal has the most in the middle third, actually, and the most in the opposition box.
What's surprising is how Beyer has the least touches in general and in the opposition box. He carries it the furthest and by far the most accurately but ends up in the box with it the least.
All in all they're different in how they use the ball. Bellis sits deeper in general and, given he also has a good level of touches in the box, I'd say is better at using the ball from corners even if Ekdal might receive/win it more. Ekdal is better at carrying and using the ball in midfield.


And defence for comparisons:
CB Defence.jpeg

Bellis makes the most interceptions and fewest mistakes, Ekdal the lowest interceptions and most mistakes, but at the same time Ekdal is by far the best tackler and blocker. Bellis loses the fewest challenges but that's because he also attempts the fewest, he has the lowest completion percentage overall. Meanwhile Ekdal is the best at tackling and winning the ball high up the pitch. Ekdal also has higher recoveries, followed by Beyer, and by far the most aerial duels won, followed by THB- not on this screenshot as they're grouped under miscellaneous stats further down.

Ekdal is slower, sure, but people are mistaking volume of long passes with accuracy. He plays a different style to Bellis but he's actually more accurate and productive with the ball on a lot of measures, Bellis's sheer volume of long passes are what's skewing progressive pass distance in his favour as he goes direct the most of the three. He's also more error prone, yet paradoxically more likely to win the ball in the air, from a tackle, or a loose ball- the errors are likely because, like Beyer, he's carrying and pushing up a lot more than Bellis, who plays much more reserved than the other two.

The stats are completely irrelevant to me because:
Ekdal has come into a settled peak version of a well structured oiled machine, Harwood Bellis was here at the start when we were more a bunch of strangers, a very capable side but we don't throw a 3-1 lead at home to Blackpool these days.

Harwood Bellis is more riskier with his passes than Ekdal, more comfortable on the ball, better driving forward with it and makes less errors. I see Ekdal as the more side to side of the 3.

[HistoricalClaret]

I think we all know the answer to this. This board loves a wild theory becoming regurgitated fact.

Imagine this being said by Alan Nixon who was the first to even confirm THB was coming to the club it isnt a "wild theory".

[Benson]

I obviously don't know the details of the contracts or agreements.

Is that better?

No that’s better.