ARTICLE: Clubs should hang their heads in shame over derby tickets

[TravisBickle]

But whatever you do to encourage/attract new/young fans, some will still miss out for some games when demand exceeds supply.

Such is life. But at least they will have some opportunity.

Not one of my group (and we have been going on since the sixties in some cases) even qualified for the ballot. Never mind entered. No sour grapes. Is what it is.

But at least if us fly by nights had some chance. As season ticket holders. And regular (75% away games).

A rolling scheme is best. Rewards recent loyalty.
A split scheme where most points and season ticket holders regardless of how old / how long they’ve been following have some chance for bigger games is better for all.

The only ones who are averse to change are those with the ‘im alright (usually) jack’ attitude.

A split scheme OR rolling scheme would have almost guaranteed the likes of Tony a ticket. As well as give opportunities to others too.

[TravisBickle]

OK but why 60% and 40%? What about those with lower points? What about games where we won't sell out eg Southampton, Brighton etc? Is a ballot going to be used for those?

It’s also a system similar to what England use. Who have significantly more fans than us. Far more in demand matches than us. Far fewer games making them even more popular. Yet it works. And rewards loyalty and encourages new members.

Points (caps) are accrued on a rolling two tournament basis. But long-standing loyal members are always near the top as they will always go.

Younger. Newer. Less active fans still have an excellent chance of getting away tickets through ballots.


And should a ballet be used for Brighton? Well yes. If there’s enough demand. If there isn’t it isn’t. That’s not exactly rocket science.

‘Please register interest for tickets for game x. If demand outweighs supply a ballot will be used. If not, tickets will go on sale to 6,000 points, 4,000 or general sale - subject to demand!’

[GodIsADeeJay81]

Agree - but the fact that there's no obvious practical solution that is operating effectively at scale right now suggests to me that it is not as simple and workable as one might immediately think.

There will be consequences and practical difficulties that you haven't thought through when suggesting checking that everyone's identity matches.

The approach you were suggesting would have caused unworkable disruption at many or all of the away games I've attended this season. I struggle to see how it would have worked at scale at Huddersfield and Blackpool, for example, when it was already chaotic.

Not suggesting solutions shouldn't be considered or trialled - just saying that it's evidently less straightforward than one might initially think.

Clubs would be required to work together, at present they've no interest in doing that.
A standardisation of systems across the league would be needed.

Practical difficulties/consequences - At somewhere like Glastonbury, if your ID doesn't match the name on the ticket, you're refused entry and they check every single ticket I've just been reading, the only consequences are for those who're trying to use a ticket they're not entitled to use.
To register for a Glastonbury ticket, you're required to upload a clear passport style picture of your face to their website so they can check you're the named person on the ticket when you arrive.

It's doable in football, just needs a collective will/desire to do so.
We aren't there yet, probably a good few years away at a guess.

[ClaretEngineer]

Bin the loyalty system, we live in a capitalist society. Nothing is fair no matter what you do.

ST holders are already rewarded by being able to keep their seat every year at renewal time.

Away games should be a free for all.

Look at it from Blackburn’s view. Why would they want to give us any sort of advantage? This is a competition.

If this really was such an outrage then no Burnley fans would be going to Ewood Park.

[TravisBickle]

Bin the loyalty system, we live in a capitalist society. Nothing is fair no matter what you do.

ST holders are already rewarded by being able to keep their seat every year at renewal time.

Away games should be a free for all.

Look at it from Blackburn’s view. Why would they want to give us any sort of advantage? This is a competition.

If this really was such an outrage then no Burnley fans would be going to Ewood Park.

Half agree with that. Other than the fact the gate will be about 15,000 and makes an absolute mockery of what footballs all about. Derbies. Big games. The fans. Atmosphere.

The way Blackburn have behaved is embarrassing. (And the way SOME of our fans have reacted is equally embarrassing).

But I’d happily go along with a free for all. The reality is I’ve never once missed a game I’ve really wanted a ticket for. Even without the required points. Ultimately it’s supply and demand. Like anything. Cinema tickets. Flight tickets. Car prices.

[Nori1958]

Clubs would be required to work together, at present they've no interest in doing that.
A standardisation of systems across the league would be needed.

Practical difficulties/consequences - At somewhere like Glastonbury, if your ID doesn't match the name on the ticket, you're refused entry and they check every single ticket I've just been reading, the only consequences are for those who're trying to use a ticket they're not entitled to use.
To register for a Glastonbury ticket, you're required to upload a clear passport style picture of your face to their website so they can check you're the named person on the ticket when you arrive.

It's doable in football, just needs a collective will/desire to do so.
We aren't there yet, probably a good few years away at a guess.

At Glastonbury you are attending the event and venue that has put on those restrictions on entry.

At rovers, for example, you are attending an event where the only restriction on entry is having a ticket, any other restrictions are Burnleys policy of selling tickets

Glastonbury are trying to stop touts, Burnley and Blackburn don't really have that problem to a level which would justify any expenditure on the tech to check ID on those attending.

[Zero]

Think we should follow the England model (as mentioned).

70% given to ST holders with most accrued points who express interest.

30% open ballot.

This sounds reasonable. Rewards loyalty, keeps new fans interested.

I don't think the top 70% will be a closed shop. There will be movement (deaths, drop out when relegated, pursuing other interests (ballroom dancing, knitting)).

For what it's worth I didn't get a ticket in the ballot (ST for 30+ years).

Good luck to those that did.

Hope we stuff em.

[agreenwood]

The last thousand pages of this thread summed up.

[Stproc]

Maybe we should have the number of loyalty points as part of our usernames so we would who is more loyal than who

[GodIsADeeJay81]

At Glastonbury you are attending the event and venue that has put on those restrictions on entry.

At rovers, for example, you are attending an event where the only restriction on entry is having a ticket, any other restrictions are Burnleys policy of selling tickets

Glastonbury are trying to stop touts, Burnley and Blackburn don't really have that problem to a level which would justify any expenditure on the tech to check ID on those attending.

Every football club will have people buying tickets to give to others to use
That's a form of touting

We have an issue in football with fans with banning orders entering grounds
We have an issue with fans getting hold of tickets for games where they themselves don't meet the requirements.

I've given a workable solution, it just needs a collective will by clubs to do something and I suspect we're a few years off.

I await your next effort to rubbish the idea

[Spijed]

Every football club will have people buying tickets to give to others to use
That's a form of touting

We have an issue in football with fans with banning orders entering grounds
We have an issue with fans getting hold of tickets for games where they themselves don't meet the requirements.

I've given a workable solution, it just needs a collective will by clubs to do something and I suspect we're a few years off.

I await your next effort to rubbish the idea

But your solution means fans would have to arrive a long time before kick-off.

[Rick_Muller]

But your solution means fans would have to arrive a long time before kick-off.

I disagree. On arrival at the CFS turnstiles, I swipe the barcode on my ST and the operator checks to see if the ticket is valid and in the apparent age group for the person going through. That check is already happening at Turf Moor. Having a photo on screen is much easier than forming a judgement about an age bracket and wont take any longer.

As Sid suggests, its more of a political will to make the system work that is lacking and it does require clubs and fans to accept that the person purchasing the ticket is the person who is entering the venue.

I personally see a formalised ticketing transfer system as being the drawback - there are valid instances whereby the person who bought the ticket is no longer able to attend - what happens then? Now, you just pass it onto a friend or family member to use right... but that wont be possible without a clearly thought out process to accommodate that scenario with the ID check on the turnstiles.

Can it be done - absolutely. Will it be done? not until the football clubs and authorities can monetise it - it wont have anything to do with what fans want that's for sure. Personally I'd welcome such a system, but I think those objecting to change on this thread are the types of fans who would oppose this type of proposal as it would quite likely impact them in ways most are not considering (pooling of tickets etc for groups).

[Nori1958]

Every football club will have people buying tickets to give to others to use
That's a form of touting

We have an issue in football with fans with banning orders entering grounds
We have an issue with fans getting hold of tickets for games where they themselves don't meet the requirements.

I've given a workable solution, it just needs a collective will by clubs to do something and I suspect we're a few years off.

I await your next effort to rubbish the idea

Not really touting, and not a big enough problem to spend lots of money preventing

Banning orders are a police matter and enforced by them

The only requirements are those placed by Burnley as to priority in buying tickets. The only requirement made by the hosting club is that you have a valid ticket. They don't give two hoots how many clarets points you may or may not have. Why would they spend money or manpower on preventing something they have no concern over

[deanothedino]

I am not an IT professional but there are numerous software options that read across different types of systems. Totally different but ERP systems That can read across SAP, Purchasing, HR systems, planing etc all from different providers , its not mega expensive especially in football terms

It’s expensive for something that isn’t costing the club’s revenue. What’s the ROI for a club to introduce this?

[TravisBickle]

Every football club will have people buying tickets to give to others to use
That's a form of touting

I’ve done this (and benefitted from this) many a time.

I would do so again. If someone I knew needed a Bristol ticket this week for example when it goes to my points category (sun 4,000 somehow) and I couldn’t go, I’d happily let them use mine. Don’t see the issue at all.

[TravisBickle]

I disagree. On arrival at the CFS turnstiles, I swipe the barcode on my ST and the operator checks to see if the ticket is valid and in the apparent age group for the person going through. That check is already happening at Turf Moor. Having a photo on screen is much easier than forming a judgement about an age bracket and wont take any longer.

As Sid suggests, its more of a political will to make the system work that is lacking and it does require clubs and fans to accept that the person purchasing the ticket is the person who is entering the venue.

I personally see a formalised ticketing transfer system as being the drawback - there are valid instances whereby the person who bought the ticket is no longer able to attend - what happens then? Now, you just pass it onto a friend or family member to use right... but that wont be possible without a clearly thought out process to accommodate that scenario with the ID check on the turnstiles.

Can it be done - absolutely. Will it be done? not until the football clubs and authorities can monetise it - it wont have anything to do with what fans want that's for sure. Personally I'd welcome such a system, but I think those objecting to change on this thread are the types of fans who would oppose this type of proposal as it would quite likely impact them in ways most are not considering (pooling of tickets etc for groups).

Why do that though.

For example I couldn’t make Wigan. I gave my card to someone who ordinarily couldn’t go on. They got a free ticket (that was already paid for), spent money on the ground and will probably go again in future now. And they added to the at atmosphere.

Much better than it going to waste.

Not to mention not giving the underpaid overworked stewards another job to do by policing who can and can’t come in.

[Targetman]

Why do that though.

For example I couldn’t make Wigan. I gave my card to someone who ordinarily couldn’t go on. They got a free ticket (that was already paid for), spent money on the ground and will probably go again in future now. And they added to the at atmosphere.

Much better than it going to waste.

Not to mention not giving the underpaid overworked stewards another job to do by policing who can and can’t come in.

I agree with much of what you say, particularly with a rolling loyalty points system. However when you say that it works for England and they have many more fans than us thats not really correct.

The rolling points system that you quote is for the England Travel Club not for the 80,000-90,000 fans who have bought tickets for the home games usually at Wembley.

The England Travel Club membership currently stands at approx 9,000 and the rolling loyalty points system that they use for England away games works quite well, as I'm sure it could do for Burnley.

However from what I have both read and heard the club have no interest in changing their system, I think it's a very short sighted attitude.

[TravisBickle]

I agree with much of what you say, particularly with a rolling loyalty points system. However when you say that it works for England and they have many more fans than us thats not really correct.

The rolling points system that you quote is for the England Travel Club not for the 80,000-90,000 fans who have bought tickets for the home games usually at Wembley.

The England Travel Club membership currently stands at approx 9,000 and the rolling loyalty points system that they use for England away games works quite well, as I'm sure it could do for Burnley.

However from what I have both read and heard the club have no interest in changing their system, I think it's a very short sighted attitude.

Yeah so there’s even more demand given the away membership is lower and the allocations often similar and always in demand. So allocating the lions share to higher pointers but with equal access to all other loyalty members makes sense imo

[turbo5]

It’s expensive for something that isn’t costing the club’s revenue. What’s the ROI for a club to introduce this?

The ROI is massive ! its called customer satisfaction. It doesn't have to be a direct measurable financial return. A football club needs fans to survive. Even Burnley can go from 22k to 2K fans within a few seasons eg relegation/ bad management etc . Keeping customers happy with a system that they feel is fair goes a long way in keeping that.

[Jjjack]

The ROI is massive ! its called customer satisfaction. It doesn't have to be a direct measurable financial return. A football club needs fans to survive. Even Burnley can go from 22k to 2K fans within a few seasons eg relegation/ bad management etc . Keeping customers happy with a system that they feel is fair goes a long way in keeping that.

I'm a customer and I'm already satisfied with the system they currently have.

[Tribesmen]

The ROI is massive ! its called customer satisfaction. It doesn't have to be a direct measurable financial return. A football club needs fans to survive. Even Burnley can go from 22k to 2K fans within a few seasons eg relegation/ bad management etc . Keeping customers happy with a system that they feel is fair goes a long way in keeping that.

Sorry just dropping down here without reading the last 9 pages .
What happens in Ireland at last we have a fair call when it comes to tickets .
Home games Season ticket holders get first dibs on any home games they like to but tickets for but can buy only one per season ticket before it go's to open sale . The last home game vs France was sold out as most were gone before open sale .
Away games are over the last 8 games played away from home and the last game falls off when we play each game after the 8 the only time when this fails to count is if we sell out for an away game then this game is void .
The cost is nothing to be a member you just have to log in , we only have a really hardcore of around 700 so easy to get tickets away from home most of the time .

[deanothedino]

The ROI is massive ! its called customer satisfaction. It doesn't have to be a direct measurable financial return. A football club needs fans to survive. Even Burnley can go from 22k to 2K fans within a few seasons eg relegation/ bad management etc . Keeping customers happy with a system that they feel is fair goes a long way in keeping that.

It’s non-existent. They have a product fans can’t get elsewhere. As long as the product on the pitch is good, people will come watch.

[Rileybobs]

Sorry just dropping down here without reading the last 9 pages .
What happens in Ireland at last we have a fair call when it comes to tickets .
Home games Season ticket holders get first dibs on any home games they like to but tickets for but can buy only one per season ticket before it go's to open sale . The last home game vs France was sold out as most were gone before open sale .
Away games are over the last 8 games played away from home and the last game falls off when we play each game after the 8 the only time when this fails to count is if we sell out for an away game then this game is void .
The cost is nothing to be a member you just have to log in , we only have a really hardcore of around 700 so easy to get tickets away from home most of the time .

I think you may have misinterpreted the acronym ROI

[Funkydrummer]

Just divide a person's points total by their age.

[chipbutty]

Bin the loyalty system, we live in a capitalist society. Nothing is fair no matter what you do.

ST holders are already rewarded by being able to keep their seat every year at renewal time.

Away games should be a free for all.

Look at it from Blackburn’s view. Why would they want to give us any sort of advantage? This is a competition.

If this really was such an outrage then no Burnley fans would be going to Ewood Park.

Why should someone who doesn't even have a season ticket be afforded the same opportunity to buy away tickets than someone who has had a season ticket for 60 years??

[Here's-Johnny]

Why should someone who doesn't even have a season ticket be afforded the same opportunity to buy away tickets than someone who has had a season ticket for 60 years??

Why Not?

[Vegas Claret]

jesus what a thread

[dougcollins]

Apt seasonal comment.

[chipbutty]

Why Not?

It's down to loyalty you clown.

[Here's-Johnny]

It's down to loyalty you clown.

A season ticket doesn't make you Loyal ? Though if you have had one 60 years that makes you very special.

[roperclaret]

It’s not really about Loyalty though is it? 99% of fans will only ever support Burnley regardless of the clubs fortunes. It’s really people saying ‘I’ve spent more money following the club than you, so I should be entitled to a ticket’

[vinrogue]

In the past when I have quoted the Englandfans system it has always been ignored as not relevant to our club. But it is a fair system I didn't like it at first but then realised it was for a 4 year period and then reset. When it reset I carried forward a good number of points to give me a head start on new members in the next 4 year period, if I continued going to away games I would always stay ahead of the newbies, however if I missed 5 away games but wanted to go to Scotland away then the newbie who had been to those 5 games had caught me up, his loyalty in this period was no proving worthwhile.

I am way above 6,000 points but think the away tickets should recognise the loyal away supporters and next season will be a nightmare.

[Here's-Johnny]

It’s not really about Loyalty though is it? 99% of fans will only ever support Burnley regardless of the clubs fortunes. It’s really people saying ‘I’ve spent more money following the club than you, so I should be entitled to a ticket’

Entitlement........exactly. And I'm not gonna bang on about how long I've had a season ticket. And I'll cherry pick my away games too. The local games are where nearly everyone becomes a ****** up superfan spewing bile. Points? What's the point.

[todclaret]

Having been a member of EnglandFans for around 20 years, the suggestion of using a similar process for away ticket allocation does seem a sound idea in principal. However, the FA have a major advantage in that the dates and kick off times for games are agreed some weeks, even months, in advance, allowing plenty of time for a registration/ballot/purchase/resale of unclaimed tickets/distribution process to take place.

Many of us would have been purchasing Bristol City tickets without being certain of what day the game was to be played. Tickets went on sale on 03/04 for a game on 28/04, and the televised games were announced on 06/04. The FA have a far greater window in which to operate and I'm not convinced that our ticket office could complete this process is less than three weeks, and the broadcasters have been a law to themselves for some years.

What was the notice we received for our away game at Brighton in 2016 (the "Justice" game) being brought forward to a noon kick off? May be mistaken but feel that it was fairly short notice.