Summer transfer window 2023 - rumours, links and discussion.

[AfloatinClaret]

It's pretty clear someone has an agenda against Roberts hidden behind a load of jargon

Does the exaggeration and overstatement on this board never end?

In the shadow of I'd accept, at a push perhaps even lightly disguised by.... but unless you're as blind as a bat the agenda certainly isn't 'hidden'.

[AGENT_CLARET]

What do we reckon today fellow Clarets, two video announcements ??

[Flying Without Ings]

What do we reckon today fellow Clarets, two video announcements ??

I reckon the lad from Dortmund will be today but do we know if Trafford has had a medical yet?

[Lancasterclaret]

I'm hoping for two but expecting one

[AfloatinClaret]

...I reckon that had JR stayed fit he'd have got into double figures.
I doubt Weghorst would have managed that... too slow.

But jay-Rod didn't stay fit, nor couldJay-Rod stay fit during the previous season and should he still be with us at Christmas, I predict that Jay-Rod won't be fit then either. I can envisage two or three great performances from Jay-Rod I next season and a further half dozen adequate ones, but over the course of a 40+ match season, I would prefer to have Weghorst in our squad, indeed I'd rather have Ashley Barnes. Jay-Rod's 'one of us', so I can understand the loyalty/sympathy angle, but at EPL level, his day is done and to be honest it was done two years ago; negotiating a two year contract last summer was a shrewd move on Jay's part

[Stockbrokerbelt]

When THB got injured I thought we were in the mire but we never missed him & I think it was because of the quality we bought in during the Jan transfer window. That might be why it appears why we are not chasing him?

[boatshed bill]

But jay-Rod didn't stay fit, nor couldJay-Rod stay fit during the previous season and should he still be with us at Christmas, I predict that Jay-Rod won't be fit then either. I can envisage two or three great performances from Jay-Rod I next season and a further half dozen adequate ones, but over the course of a 40+ match season, I would prefer to have Weghorst in our squad, indeed I'd rather have Ashley Barnes. Jay-Rod's 'one of us', so I can understand the loyalty/sympathy angle, but at EPL level, his day is done and to be honest it was done two years ago; negotiating a two year contract last summer was a shrewd move on Jay's part

I hope you are wrong.

[Big Vinny K]

When THB got injured I thought we were in the mire but we never missed him & I think it was because of the quality we bought in during the Jan transfer window. That might be why it appears why we are not chasing him?

I think we did miss him. We had no other player who could play the long switch ball across the pitch that THB was so good at. Most of the time this was a ball he played to Zaroury - . AZ’s first touch was fantastic and the switch in play often caught the opposition short on players. I think there are a few other reasons why AZ wasn’t quite up to his standard in the last third of the season but I think THB not playing contributed.

The other thing about THB is that he is very clearly a leader and organiser on the pitch. I don’t think we have an obvious captain right now with Cork being on the bench.

I do agree that those that came into replace THB did do very well but for me our best long term partnership is THB and Beyer (if we play 2 and one other if we play 3)

[Tricky Trevor]

Another unsure on THB.
His positional sense was so good he rarely got troubled in two years at Championship level. His distribution is flawless, he is as cool as Bobby Moore and yet for all that I still have my doubts at PL level. As was mentioned on the U21s thread it was Colwill that took their #9 whilst he took the free role and for most games last season he was the free defender. I’d have liked to see him under pressure more often to give a fuller appraisal.
Wherever he ends up I wish him a great career for what he gave us for a season.

[ervi34]

Andy Jones has confirmed that Townsend is training with us and that both sides are evaluating their options regarding the contract.

Lokonga has posted that he will miss the preseason preparations in Germany because of muscle injury. Maybe he's really injured but could also mean he's on his way out.

[burnley007]

Andy Jones has confirmed that Townsend is training with us and that both sides are evaluating their options regarding the contract.

Lokonga has posted that he will miss the preseason preparations in Germany because of muscle injury. Maybe he's really injured but could also mean he's on his way out.

Please can we sign Lokonga, he just looks mint.
Exactly what we need

[CFS]

Please can we sign Lokonga, he just looks mint.
Exactly what we need

We've pretty much wrapped that signing up from what I've heard.

[blake's wand]

I think Weghorst could be brilliant for us next season - we've finally got wingers that can beat a man and whip in a killer ball.

If he's welcomed back into the squad, it's a no brainer for me. He has just spent 12 months playing for Man U and played for the Netherlands at the WC - hard to believe he isn't good enough for us....

[ClaretAL]

UTD also had wingers that could whip a killer ball in and still nothing from him. I think for his own progression he needs to drop the ego and concentrate on getting back to basics like heading a ball, and you never know the dismissive conclusion from UTD may have been a penny drop moment for him, but I seem to remember we warned before we signed him that he was a bad apple.

[GodIsADeeJay81]

THB available for 15m

West Ham and Fulham interested. Be surprised if we aren’t interested at that price

West Ham can offer European football and both clubs blow us out the water with wages

[aggi]

I think we did miss him. We had no other player who could play the long switch ball across the pitch that THB was so good at. Most of the time this was a ball he played to Zaroury - . AZ’s first touch was fantastic and the switch in play often caught the opposition short on players. I think there are a few other reasons why AZ wasn’t quite up to his standard in the last third of the season but I think THB not playing contributed.

The other thing about THB is that he is very clearly a leader and organiser on the pitch. I don’t think we have an obvious captain right now with Cork being on the bench.

I do agree that those that came into replace THB did do very well but for me our best long term partnership is THB and Beyer (if we play 2 and one other if we play 3)

Brownhill seems the obvious choice for captain now.

[Newcastleclaret93]

Brownhill seems the obvious choice for captain now.

I would argue Beyer. He’s the only 100% certain starter

[AGENT_CLARET]

I would argue Beyer. He’s the only 100% certain starter

Or Cullen

[Pearcey]

Being as Brownhill was skipper when Cork wasn’t playing i’d imagine it’ll be him.

[Newcastleclaret93]

Or Cullen

Depends what CMs we bring in

[It Is What It Is]

Incoming transfers.....no news is good news I suppose

[Rick_Muller]

Incoming transfers.....no news is good news I suppose

It Is What It Is

[burnley007]

We've pretty much wrapped that signing up from what I've heard.

Where have you heard that?
I really hope you're right

[Pearcey]

Incoming transfers.....no news is good news I suppose

I would’ve thought Coulibaly would be announced today or tomorrow, followed by Trafford. A Midfielder and some attackers would be nice before the season starts.

[spt_claret]

Ekdal looks a player as well, and he's what, 24?

I don't want him to go, even though the only speculation I can see about him leaving is on here

I love Ekdal, I think he's our most underrated player and him/Beyer was an immense pairing.
I know the sample of games is smaller but for the data fans check his stats on fbref Vs the much loved THB. He's ahead of him on almost every measure including most passing measures. Beyer ahead of Ekdal but Ekdal is a top top player and a bargain. I think in the Prem his size, physicality and defensive ability will be needed, he's not nearly as slow as made out, lack of pace still isn't a problem for Mee at Brentford, and we have Beyer (or Dakhil if back 3) to provide the pace in the centre- most teams only have 1 central striker so 2 pacy CBs isn't essential.

I'll be very disappointed if Ekdal is sidelined. Don't fully understand signing both O'Shea and especially Coulibaly for that price, you'd think at least McNally is off but even if so we are overstocked there, unless one moves to fullback or CDM.
THB would be wholly unnecessary and I genuinely don't think he's as good as Beyer/Ekdal, while Al Dakhil has such potential it'd be a waste to not develop him.
Someone else can have him, good servant but we need other positions reinforcing more.

Think Dyche had little to no idea of what to do with him. Think he heard he was 6ft5 and salivated at the prospect of all the hoofs forward and Roberts' famous "long throw."

Can we put paid to this misnomer? Wout wasn't played in that role, he was the link man and Jay was pushed up to the Wood role focal striker in our 442 verging on 4411 at times (sometimes an asymmetric 4321/4312 with Cornet going so far up wide). We also very rarely made use of Roberts long throws, probably because they weren't that long.
Dyche was and is well known for using sports science data. He had us using Gegenpresse back in the Championship and always touted the importance of data. He's not the type to just go "he's tall so he's the same". Being tactically stubborn isn't the same as not using data analytics or sport science.

Wout isn't a Wood replacement,and he wasn't signed as one. He was signed BECAUSE Wood left but not as a replacement. He was said to be on our scouting list for some time by Dyche and I believe it, but as a Jay/Barnes replacement. We tended to play 1 striker as a link man alongside Wood as the goal getter, I think that's the role Wout was targeted for, and when Wood left it was a case by the board of "ok you have money now and he was on your list so you can have him" without understanding why he was shortlisted. We were also linked with Haris Seferovic at the time and before that Vedat Muriqi, both who fit Wood's profile much closer. I suspect the board just looked in terms of "who's on the shortlist who's in it price structure" rather than playing styles.
The proof is that Jay was played in the Wood role, not Wout.

As for having Wout back I gladly would. He's a good player, he works hard, presses hard, his "attitude" seem just Dutchness to me- the Dutch are stereotypically known for being blunt, direct, and frank to the point of seeming rude, it even crops up in Ted Lasso when they sign a Dutchman.
Regarding his quality, he's struggled for goals the last couple years but even Utd fans I've spoken to have praised his link play, holdup play, and workrate. He's not as good a header as you'd expect for his height but he has scored a few that way for Holland and Wolfsburg. He's not quick but neither is Jay anymore. He knew where the net was at Wolfsburg, and before anyone says the team was carrying him, they finished 6/7/4th in his 3 seasons, having been 16th the two prior years and 12th the year he left, 8th this year. His form had dipped during the season we signed him so it's possible we signed him just as he was starting to decline, but far from Wolfsburg carrying him the data suggests they relied on him.
We can sell him, recoup 7-8m then pay at least double that on a fresh gamble, so a net 7-8m loss. Or we can play him and hope he achieves the same results without the additional outlay.
I'd play him and I think 99% of the perception round his attitude is a cultural misunderstanding. But then I also consider diving, playacting, unnecessary nasty fouls, or attempts to handball/cheat (successful or not) to be better signs of poor attitude and a few of our squad did those last year. Not to say they have a bad attitude, just that thats a bigger warning sign to me than a Dutchman being overly blunt, and I'm fine with keeping them around so see no reason why Wout shouldn't get a chance.
Really hope he does and proves his doubters wrong- in an ideal world he scores on the opening day from a Roberts assist.

[Firthy]

If we don't get Maatsen who'll start at LB. Taylor or Vitinho?

[RicardoMontalban]

If we don't get Maatsen who'll start at LB. Taylor or Vitinho?

Listening to the interview with the Belgian journalist last week, we apparently work off a consideration list of 50/60 players, with multiple options for any position we're looking at.

I think it’s safe to assume Maatsen, or indeed Gomez, are not the only players that will be on the radar. It’s just other names haven’t got out yet.

[PremierLeagueClass]

Depends what CMs we bring in

Not a chance will Cullen be forced out of the side. First name on the teamsheet.

[nil_desperandum]

If we don't get Maatsen who'll start at LB. Taylor or Vitinho?

Neither of those.

[NewClaret]

Neither of those.

Do you have info?

[nil_desperandum]

Do you have info?

I'm afraid not but it's a long time till Aug 11th and we will have landed one of our targets by then.

[Tricky Trevor]

If we don't get Maatsen who'll start at LB. Taylor or Vitinho?

One of the CBs, preferably a left footed one.

[CrosspoolClarets]

Not expecting any signings today - will be tied in with the shirt launch tomorrow, extra publicity for the shirts.

[aggi]

I would argue Beyer. He’s the only 100% certain starter

Who knows. Given the number of centre backs we've got and are linked with I wouldn't say that any are certain starters.

[spt_claret]

I think we did miss him. We had no other player who could play the long switch ball across the pitch that THB was so good at.

Except we did.
Again check the actual stats. Of the 3 (Bellis/Beyer/Ekdal) THB had the lowest long range pass completion percentage. I believe he might even have had lower raw numbers than Beyer. He just attempted far more than either- if you attempt more Hollywood passes you'd expect more in total to come off.
For goal and shot creating actions per 90 (involved in the 2 plays before the shot/goal) he was ahead of Beyer, but roughly tied with Ekdal on SCA and marginally behind on GCA. Per 90 is the better measure given discrepancies in match time..

THB is a good player but on the eye test I don't think he's any better than our other options at most measures and the data backs it up.

We've pretty much wrapped that signing up from what I've heard.

Arsenal mad colleague of mine who really knows his stuff has raved about Lokonga since they signed him. Would be delighted with this.

[123EasyasBFC]

If we don't get Maatsen who'll start at LB. Taylor or Vitinho?

I’m sure someone on here might have been longside, said we where working on a left back that hadn’t reached public news yet

[ClaretAL]

If data was the be all and end all of football no one would attend a match. It is what happens in the situation, the pressure st the point of the pass, the time in the game, the opposing team, the strength of the press, the receiving player, lots that cant be taken in to account but can be when you watch a match. I think THB is good at the diagonal switch, and i think Beyer is good at dribbling the ball out, but I am sure there are stats that say different.

[spt_claret]

UTD also had wingers that could whip a killer ball in and still nothing from him. I think for his own progression he needs to drop the ego and concentrate on getting back to basics like heading a ball, and you never know the dismissive conclusion from UTD may have been a penny drop moment for him, but I seem to remember we warned before we signed him that he was a bad apple.

Utd don't play their wingers like that though. They use inverted wingers/wide forwards who predominantly go inside to shoot or run a channel, sometimes do a narrow deep cutback. Even Sancho was used in more of that role when he'd been the type to go either way at Dortmund but from what I'd seen was quite often orthodox and outside.
We let our wingers do either, and mix high and low crosses.

The bad apple comment was because he rubbed teammates the wrong way by being very demanding and critical of them. Again that's quite possibly a Dutch thing of giving blunt criticism.

If data was the be all and end all of football no one would attend a match. It is what happens in the situation, the pressure st the point of the pass, the time in the game, the opposing team, the strength of the press, the receiving player, lots that cant be taken in to account but can be when you watch a match. I think THB is good at the diagonal switch, and i think Beyer is good at dribbling the ball out, but I am sure there are stats that say different.

Data science is continually evolving to take these sorts of things into consideration. That's what xG and xA try to do, and as data is used more it will get better at these sorts of scenario because there's more historical data to build new data models from. Data "can prove anything" insofar as 2 badly built or unreliable data models can show wildly different results when measuring the same thing. And no it can't fully replace the eye test and gut feeling but it can inform on that and disprove some misconceptions. THB is good at the long diagonal ball, but the data shows his general long passing is less accurate than Beyer or Ekdal, he just attempts a lot more. For that specific type of long ball a long switched diagonal it's hard to say as there's not really such a narrow data point and if there was the amount of data would be very low (especially with Ekdals matchtime) so it'd be unreliable, so the eye test plus general pass data is all you have. Eye test says good, general data says "good but you'd predict Beyer/Ekdal to be better if they did it as much". Again not saying he's BAD at it, he's clearly good, just I think his abilities are exaggerated especially compared to our other options.
And re your last point not really the data shows Beyer is freakishly good at dribbling too.

[Big Vinny K]

Except we did.
Again check the actual stats. Of the 3 (Bellis/Beyer/Ekdal) THB had the lowest long range pass completion percentage. I believe he might even have had lower raw numbers than Beyer. He just attempted far more than either- if you attempt more Hollywood passes you'd expect more in total to come off.
For goal and shot creating actions per 90 (involved in the 2 plays before the shot/goal) he was ahead of Beyer, but roughly tied with Ekdal on SCA and marginally behind on GCA. Per 90 is the better measure given discrepancies in match time..

THB is a good player but on the eye test I don't think he's any better than our other options at most measures and the data backs it up.

Arsenal mad colleague of mine who really knows his stuff has raved about Lokonga since they signed him. Would be delighted with this.

I don’t mind statistics but I also have eyes and if you exclude Muric there were 2 players last season capable of playing the long switch pass. One was THB and the other one Maatsen. I don’t think the stats specifically refer to the type of switch of play that I am talking about. It’s a tactic Man City often use too where they mainly look to switch it to Grealish or the other wingers. They always have someone hugging the touch line like we did.

Of course the pass is not always accurate - you are looking at hitting a cross field pass 50 or 60 yards to a small target stood on the touch line. It’s not a long pass into space or into an area for players to run into which are of course much easier to execute. The only other player I saw last season for us ever try this was Charlie Taylor - it was an awful attempt and he never tried it again !!

[spt_claret]

I don’t mind statistics but I also have eyes and if you exclude Muric there were 2 players last season capable of playing the long switch pass. One was THB and the other one Maatsen. I don’t think the stats specifically refer to the type of switch of play that I am talking about. It’s a tactic Man City often use too where they often look to switch it to Grealish.

Of course the pass is not always accurate - you are looking at hitting a cross field pass 50 or 60 yards to a small target stood on the touch line. It’s not a long pass into space or into an area for players to run into which are of course much easier to execute. The only other player I saw last season for us ever try this was Charlie Taylor - it was an awful attempt and he never tried it again !!

Perhaps you're right on that, I did say you can't ditch the eye test entirely but on the eye test I also felt THB slowed us and go sideways or back a lot more than Beyer or Ekdal, who did occasionally attempt the crossfield switch but more often Beyer would surge up, or either would attempt a splitter through the middle, and generally keep our sustained play better. I also felt that , while Ekdal and Beyer made a couple of errors leading to chances, one particularly sloppy one by Beyer conceding a needless corner, that THBs positioning and short passing got Muric into trouble more. He had shakes early on, and again when THB came back, but didn't seem to have them as much with Ekdal/Beyer.
I appreciate this is a different topic to specifically this type of long passing and again I'm not saying Bellis isn't a good passer, I'm just making the point that the eye test is very subjective but also opens up other considerations, and that from the data plus eye test I think Beyer/Ekdals general passing, possession play and reliability makes me confident they're the better option and if they attempted that pass as often as THB would have similar or better success rates

[warksclaret]

Lots of over anaylsis about THB, I guess trying to find a weakness. This guy is not 22 until next January, has played over 100 games in the Belgium top league/Championship, and barely put a foot wrong for us. He would be a huge asset and investment for us, but not until we get to the window close will we know our defensive line up for our new season. I suspect defence is where VK already has his pieces in place alongside hopefully a very impressive new keeper

[kenyon6923]

think at times we need to get our feet back on the ground - 12 months ago a large percentage of supporters would have bit your hands off for a 10-12th finish in championship last season. Unless he is a disruption to the dressing room and club we cant afford as a club to be letting Wout do a "gareth bale and play golf for the remainder of his salary" even if VK uses him as a "last 15 minutes - were 1 nil down see what you can do" sub. Obviously if his attitude in training or he voices his "opinions" unprofessionally outside the club he won't be involved but his salary won't be peanuts so we have to utilise him the best we can to assist the club moving forward. That's regardless on anyone's views on whether he should play for us again.

[Hipper]

Just a small point.

I wonder if what makes us think THB is perhaps better then he really is is that he is the first centre back we've had in a long time trying to play that role. It was refreshing and impressive and it was surrounded by our overall amazement at what we were seeing. With that in mind he looked special. When he came back in the side either he was rusty or we had now seen other players doing similar things. He didn't look so good then.

[equinox]

Not a chance will Cullen be forced out of the side. First name on the teamsheet.

I wouldn't be so sure on that, I will say though, if Cullen isn't a regular starter then we've made some unbelievable signings to keep him out, under Kompany not one of these players can rest on their laurels.

[boyyanno]

think at times we need to get our feet back on the ground - 12 months ago a large percentage of supporters would have bit your hands off for a 10-12th finish in championship last season. Unless he is a disruption to the dressing room and club we cant afford as a club to be letting Wout do a "gareth bale and play golf for the remainder of his salary" even if VK uses him as a "last 15 minutes - were 1 nil down see what you can do" sub. Obviously if his attitude in training or he voices his "opinions" unprofessionally outside the club he won't be involved but his salary won't be peanuts so we have to utilise him the best we can to assist the club moving forward. That's regardless on anyone's views on whether he should play for us again.

You lost me at the first bit to be honest. There's no way that a large percentage of our fan base would have snapped your hand off for 10th to 12th last season. Absolutely no chance.

[FeedTheArf]

Linked to Coventry's Hamer in the Telegraph but can't see as behind paywall.

[claretcarrot93]

Depends what CMs we bring in

Cullen has about as much chance as not starting the first game as Sheff Utd running away with the league last season. Him and Beyer are first names on teamsheet

[RVclaret]

Linked to Coventry's Hamer in the Telegraph but can't see as behind paywall.

https://12ft.io/proxy?q=https%3A%2F%2Fw ... o-hamer%2F

I was very impressed with Hamer last season. My only concern was his height, quite similar in size to Cullen.

[123EasyasBFC]

Coventry fan meltdown incoming

[RVclaret]

Coventry fan meltdown incoming

No doubt wanting ‘45m for his right leg’… while at the same time wanting McNally for a few million.