Sub goes Missing

[Boss Hogg]

Might be difficult for families to sue the sub operator as it seems they signed detailed disclaimers warning that things could go wrong including death. Not sure how much certification was needed to allow passengers on board though.

[Clovius Boofus]

A lot of stories coming out about safety etc, the CEO effectively sacked a senior director for trying to insist that the sub was independently inspected prior to launch amongst other things

Thanks for replying.

[ClaretDiver]

Thanks for replying.

No worries, there is more coming out of the woodwork as well! Seems the CEO is a bit of a snake oil salesman!

[ClaretDiver]

Might be difficult for families to sue the sub operator as it seems they signed detailed disclaimers warning that things could go wrong including death. Not sure how much certification was needed to allow passengers on board though.

I tend to agree here BUT I would be putting a specialist onto those waivers to see if they are (and please pardon the pun) watertight!

[GodIsADeeJay81]

So they've been officially out of oxygen for a few hours

[dibraidio]

The US coast guard said that they would be out of oxygen at 12:08pm (uk time) That's pretty specific.
According to one expert it all depends on the temperature, the co2 content of the air and the oxygen consumption of the individuals. I know when I go diving I use almost twice as much as the mrs does for the same dive.

The oxygen doesn't just run out and then everyone dies, the oxygen content of the air will start to drop and the co2 will start to rise. Some people have better tolerance than others to co2 so they could survive slightly longer.

The water temperature at that depth is close to 0. If it's really cold inside then they may be suffering with hypothermia in which case their bodies will shut down and they may lose consciousness which in turn would mean their oxygen consumption will drop. It's a dreadful scenario to be stuck in that little tube with no means of escape, in some ways it would be a blessing if they've become unconscious because of the cold. That could also give rescuers a few more hours to find them.

If they find it and they can bring it to the surface the journey back up is likely to take 2 hours or more. The only scenario I can imagine that would mean they are still alive is if Titan got stuck on something and couldn't come back up even after dropping its ballast or inflating its balloons.
If that's the case the only solution is going to be assistance from the Victor 6000.

[Rick_Muller]

Breaking news on BBC - debris found in sub search area.

Not looking good

[CoolClaret]

Breaking news on BBC - debris found in sub search area.

Not looking good

I think the sub imploding pretty much when they lost contact is the most plausible scenario.

I hope that this catastrophe at least reinforces the need for proper procedure in Enginnering… Cutting corners and trying to be cost effective to the detriment of everything else never works out (see Boeing 737-Max fiasco for another example)

Some of the comments I’ve read from the CEO Stockton Rush are quiet frankly disgusting - and I feel massively undermined the process behind Engineering… an attitude that I see with a lot of people in positions of power (normally coming from non-technical backgrounds)

Flaunting standards and skirting around legislation via waiver is beyond madness, if honest.

Some real poetic irony here regarding the fact that he sacked and then tried to sue one of the design engineers/consultants for expressing concern about the design of the Sub.

It’s a tragedy of course and I sympathise with people on board…

I also hope that we understand the importance of collaborative ‘government’ organisations that have spearheaded the rescue effort (you know, with tax payers/collective money) instead of constantly undermining them to praise the private sector instead ….

One of the guests Piers Morgan had on was seriously hellbent on crapping on gov agencies and praising Ocean Gate for being ‘pioneers’ & ‘daring to do what people say cannot be done’ - again, the irony not lost on me whatsoever

[Swizzlestick]

Going on the (admittedly grisly) assumption that they weren't going to make it whatever happened, the sight of debris would at least initially suggest it was an implosion of the submarine, therefore a pretty quick process, rather than the horrifying prospect of slowly suffocating due to lack of oxygen. I mean, neither scenario is great, but then it seems like an unbelievably risky endeavour for which they've unfortunately paid the ultimate price.

[clarets12]

I'm still amazed that there wasn't anything that stayed on the surface while the submersible went down - such as a second submersible, that could immediately go down to rescue if anything went wrong.

[Lowbankclaret]

The complete lack of a rescue plan smacks of amateurs playing around in dangerous territory.

The other thing is 34 successful previous trips can lead to complacency .

Hopefully the sub will be recovered and an investigation will find what went wrong.

Hopefully people will not be so fast to jump in an experimental craft in the future.

RIP those on board.

Pilot making his last trip, bless his sole.

Young lad at 19 had no life yet.

[Robbie_painter]

Pilot making his last trip, bless his sole.

Bit early for puns tbh.There’s a time and a plaice and this ain’t it.

[DCWat]

It seems strange that there is now a possibility that the submarine broke up, unless it happened later on.

Were they not confident that the sounds heard were likely from the sub because they were happening at regular intervals?

I suppose there’s the possibility that being down for so long, the pressure could have become too much.

Whatever the cause, an awful event.

[elwaclaret]

The complete lack of a rescue plan smacks of amateurs playing around in dangerous territory.

The other thing is 34 successful previous trips can lead to complacency .

Hopefully the sub will be recovered and an investigation will find what went wrong.

Hopefully people will not be so fast to jump in an experimental craft in the future.

RIP those on board.

Pilot making his last trip, bless his sole.

Young lad at 19 had no life yet.

I was reading a salvage expert yesterday who was saying once they find the sub it may still be easier to rescue someone stuck on the moon as at the depth they could be. Another expert suggesting there may be secret military kit that could be employed… but nothing in standard salvage operations is designed for such depth. Another commentator pointing out all the coverage because the passengers were billionaires and asking how much resource is being put into finding the hundreds missing off Greece. It sounds like the attitude was changing last night from a rescue to a salvage operation in order to tighten up submarine standards.

Though the time line for air supply is only estimated and they may have more air than is generally thought (or less).

[evensteadiereddie]

I g

[taio]

It seems strange that there is now a possibility that the submarine broke up, unless it happened later on.

Were they not confident that the sounds heard were likely from the sub because they were happening at regular intervals?

I suppose there’s the possibility that being down for so long, the pressure could have become too much.

Whatever the cause, an awful event.

There's bit lots of uncertainty and inconsistency about the source and regularity of the noise. I guess it will transpire that it imploded early on. I've been fascinated by this incident. RIP.

[Pearcey]

It seems strange that there is now a possibility that the submarine broke up, unless it happened later on.

Were they not confident that the sounds heard were likely from the sub because they were happening at regular intervals?

I suppose there’s the possibility that being down for so long, the pressure could have become too much.

Whatever the cause, an awful event.

The sounds were spurious apparently. Was obviously an implosion as they have found the debris. It would’ve happened immediately when they lost contact.

[ClaretDiver]

The sounds were spurious apparently. Was obviously an implosion as they have found the debris. It would’ve happened immediately when they lost contact.

Reports have come out that he has admitted cutting corners and that the 7 inch Perspex window had an alarm on it in case it started to concave as it was probably too thin!!! Wtaf!

[Pearcey]

Reports have come out that he has admitted cutting corners and that the 7 inch Perspex window had an alarm on it in case it started to concave as it was probably too thin!!! Wtaf!
[/

Having worked on Aircraft for 26 years I find it incredible that these companies are allowed to stray away from the regulatory boards. Watching the news at the moment and a man who is friends of two of the passengers is talking. He mentioned Stockton Rush felt that the regulators were holding them back. Scary! I guess it was an accident waiting to happen.

[Pearcey]

Not sure why my last message has turned into a quote!

[Sproggy]

Debris found. Landing frame and rear cover. The only good news from that is that it would have been quick.

[DCWat]

There's bit lots of uncertainty and inconsistency about the source and regularity of the noise. I guess it will transpire that it imploded early on. I've been fascinated by this incident. RIP.

Im not sure why - it’s not as if we aren’t fed news of awful events throughout the world on a regular basis - but this story has for reasons I don’t know, been one that’s played on my mind every day.

As awful as it sounds, I do hope that it did implode at the outset. Better to go quickly with little, if any awareness, than to sit there for days waiting for the inevitable.

[taio]

Im not sure why - it’s not as if we aren’t fed news of awful events throughout the world on a regular basis - but this story has for reasons I don’t know, been one that’s played on my mind every day.

As awful as it sounds, I do hope that it did implode at the outset. Better to go quickly with little, if any awareness, than to sit there for days waiting for the inevitable.

I’ve been exactly the same. I read the news a lot less than I used to these days because it can be depressing. But this incident has had me gripped and far too often looking for news updates and information

[jdrobbo]

This has been a fascinating news story of mankind’s need and want for adventure, technology and engineering (good and awful), of hope, and of the natural wonders of the world, showing that they are never to be abused.

The vastness of the ocean and the peril that it poses…. I’m still not quite sure that the human race can comprehend its true scale, just like that of outer space, yet so much closer to home!

The one thing that brings comfort now, several days on, is that it’s looking like death will have occurred instantly on the fact that the five people on board will unlikely have suffered at all, is a good thing. The thought of them having panicked four days and died slowly, one-by-one, is tough to comprehend.

Let’s hope that we learn a lot from this experience.

[Pickles]

The vastness of the ocean and the peril that it poses…. I’m still not quite sure that the human race can comprehend its true scale, just like that of outer space, yet so much closer to home!

This is useful to show the massive scale of the ocean. Scroll up and keep scrolling...

https://neal.fun/deep-sea/

[mdd2]

111 in cricket is an unlucky score and 111 years post the Titanic sinking another five victims-very sad. From the outset once there were problems reading the news pieces there was no way they could have been rescued. Assuming it imploded soon after communication was lost better to die that way than spending four days waiting to die.

[kentonclaret]

As much as the story may represent man’s quest for adventure and knowledge it is only billionaires that can afford to pay for such excursions, to the very depths of the ocean floor and flights into space. If this mode of transport was more accessible to others I am sure that it would have been far better regulated to ensure that all submersibles meet strict safety criteria. When we learn that the pressure on the craft would have been the equivalent of the weight of the Eiffel Tower then it puts into context the risk of the submersible imploding.

[Lowbankclaret]

Bit early for puns tbh.There’s a time and a plaice and this ain’t it.

It was not a pun. He was making his last trip.

[ClaretDiver]

Sadly they have released a statement that all 5 souls are lost

[California Colner]

Sad end
They did know the risk before stepping into the Sub
RIP

[evensteadiereddie]

An interesting view.
Those rich people getting their comeuppance, eh?

[Sproggy]

An interesting view.
Those rich people getting their comeuppance, eh?

Well at a million quid a pop it was unlikley to be a group of friends from Stoops was it?

And its more a point about tourists oggling mass grave sites for fun. But whatever.

[Corky]

I think the one thing we have learnt is never to let Heath Robinson anywhere near designing submersibles.

[evensteadiereddie]

Well at a million quid a pop it was unlikley to be a group of friends from Stoops was it?

And its more a point about tourists oggling mass grave sites for fun. But whatever.

Yes, that'll teach 'em.....


But whatever.

[Hipper]

As I understand it this machine descended and ascended thirty times without imploding so it must have had something going for it. Clearly an issue occurred and perhaps there are maintenance records that might give a clue. Whether the authorities are able to recover any relevant debris hasn't been mentioned yet.

Remember the experiment in school physics to show atmospheric pressure:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j0TQxYemrgg

That's one Atmosphere of pressure. The sea pressure at Titanic's depth is apparently around 380 Atmospheres.

A passenger aircraft has a pressurised cabin (the pressure pushing outwards) so when flying at 35,000 feet were the pressure is less then one Atmosphere it doesn't explode. The same presumably applies to the Space Shuttle.

The conditions in the abyss are way beyond every day understanding.

[Loyalclaret]

Titanic director James Cameron believes authorities knew all along about implosion and location of the sub, just heard a slightly longer version of this interview on the radio where he said many organisations had picked the sound up of an implosion at the time.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-65994707

[martin_p]

As I understand it this machine descended and ascended thirty times without imploding so it must have had something going for it. Clearly an issue occurred and perhaps there are maintenance records that might give a clue. Whether the authorities are able to recover any relevant debris hasn't been mentioned yet.

Remember the experiment in school physics to show atmospheric pressure:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j0TQxYemrgg

That's one Atmosphere of pressure. The sea pressure at Titanic's depth is apparently around 380 Atmospheres.

A passenger aircraft has a pressurised cabin (the pressure pushing outwards) so when flying at 35,000 feet were the pressure is less then one Atmosphere it doesn't explode. The same presumably applies to the Space Shuttle.

The conditions in the abyss are way beyond every day understanding.

I thought pressurised cabins in aircraft were about getting enough oxygen to breath, the air outside being significantly thinner/less pressure and therefore containing less oxygen.

[fatboy47]

Well at a million quid a pop it was unlikley to be a group of friends from Stoops was it?

And its more a point about tourists oggling mass grave sites for fun. But whatever.

Not a crime, and a nasty outcome, but I'll save my big box of tissues for the utterly tragic and devastating events in the Med if that's ok...those hundreds of desperate people had far less choice.

BBC, sadly, as ever will focus on the juiciest story.

[Andreshotboots]

Well at a million quid a pop it was unlikley to be a group of friends from Stoops was it?

And its more a point about tourists oggling mass grave sites for fun. But whatever.

I've been to the landing beaches of Normandy, and many of the military cemeteries there as I felt it's something I had to do out of respect. Does that make me a "tourist oggling a mass grave site"?

We know nothing about the people lost on that sub, some may have some sort of connection to the deceased on the Titanic, who knows.

[NottsClaret]

If nothing else, we've all learned a lot over the last week about some of the terrifying and bizarre physics at play at the bottom of the sea. Best left well alone in my view. I'd spend £250k on going into space though, if I had it like.

[mdd2]

I think aircraft are pressurised to atmospheric pressure at 10000 feet an altitude where you can fly without needing additional oxygen.

[martin_p]

Not a crime, and a nasty outcome, but I'll save my big box of tissues for the utterly tragic and devastating events in the Med if that's ok...those hundreds of desperate people had far less choice.

BBC, sadly, as ever will focus on the juiciest story.

It’s ok to be sympathetic for both.

[Lancasterclaret]

I just refer to my post on the original thread

We should be using the same resources to help save all in peril on the seas, be that this kind of thing or a dinghy full of refugees

[fatboy47]

It’s ok to be sympathetic for both.

As indeed I am Martin.

Just disappointed that our media have given far far more cover to the sub story because, I've no doubt, it's dramatic potential.

[Sproggy]

I've been to the landing beaches of Normandy, and many of the military cemeteries there as I felt it's something I had to do out of respect. Does that make me a "tourist oggling a mass grave site"?

We know nothing about the people lost on that sub, some may have some sort of connection to the deceased on the Titanic, who knows.

And as part of that you could have visited one of the many museums in the area which inform and educate and help bring a bit of perspective to what you were looking at. I presume you didn't go there with an excavator just to see what you might find?

Or you could rent a private sub and go and look at what's left of the migrant boat that sank in the Med. Is that OK?

And if it was OK to send fee paying passengers down to the Titanic last week, then presumably it's OK next week to do the same and take in the new debris field?

[martin_p]

As indeed I am Martin.

Just disappointed that our media have given far far more cover to the sub story because, I've no doubt, it's dramatic potential.

That’s just the way the media has always worked. Case in point, three people are murdered in the streets of Nottingham gets wall to wall coverage because of the drama and potential links to terrorism. A couple of days later four people found stabbed to death in a flat in London and it barely gets a mention. Both tragic events but one makes for ‘better’ news coverage.

[Andreshotboots]

I think aircraft are pressurised to atmospheric pressure at 10000 feet an altitude where you can fly without needing additional oxygen.

They are indeed hence the reason passengers only have a few minutes of oxygen supply in the drop down masks.

If there's an issue with depressurisation, the Captain will get you down from the cruising altitude to under 10,000 very quickly..

[martin_p]

And as part of that you could have visited one of the many museums in the area which inform and educate and help bring a bit of perspective to what you were looking at. I presume you didn't go there with an excavator just to see what you might find?

Or you could rent a private sub and go and look at what's left of the migrant boat that sank in the Med. Is that OK?

And if it was OK to send fee paying passengers down to the Titanic last week, then presumably it's OK next week to do the same and take in the new debris field?

One is over a hundred years ago and one is this week, that makes a significant difference.

[Hipper]

I thought pressurised cabins in aircraft were about getting enough oxygen to breath, the air outside being significantly thinner/less pressure and therefore containing less oxygen.

They are (both for oxygen and temperature) but they still have to be structurally able to cope with this including allowances for movement of the structure and metal fatigue problems. In the early days of jet passenger planes it was an issue, notably the De Havilland Comet.

https://www.bbc.com/future/article/2014 ... ane-design

In WW2 bomber crew flew at around 20,000 feet but didn't have a pressurised cabin. Instead they wore oxygen masks above 10,000 feet and froze their nuts off. How on earth the Zeppelins of WW1 and the fighters that went up to shoot them down coped I don't know.

[pureclaret]

The thing that I feel is wrong is extremmley wealthy people make the news hr by hr for doing a risky pleasure excursion , but the 60 people shot in USA last weekend got next to no news, with no updates on there health and progress.