So that article automatically supercedes other experienced drivers arguing differently, you've given the game away with the word "found" you have purposely searched for something to align itself with your way of thinking & presented it as a evidence, I won't even ask if you have thoroughly & diligently researched the article you claim as evidence.Rileybobs wrote: ↑Sun Oct 15, 2023 10:20 pmExcept I didn’t have a way of thinking until I found evidence to support that a 20mph speed limit causes less emissions than a 30mph speed limit. You appear to be projecting, and as ever it’s of great comfort to my confidence in this argument to be on the opposite side to you.
20 MPH in Wales
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Re: 20 MPH in Wales
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Re: 20 MPH in Wales
Yes of course that study supersedes what a single person told Lowbank when he bought a car off him.Jakubclaret wrote: ↑Sun Oct 15, 2023 10:24 pmSo that article automatically supercedes other experienced drivers arguing differently, you've given the game away with the word "found" you have purposely searched for something to align itself with your way of thinking & presented it as a evidence, I won't even ask if you have thoroughly & diligently researched the article you claim as evidence.
If I type in ‘less emissions at 30mph than 20mph’ the study I posted is the second link. And as far as I can see, every link on the first page suggests that emissions are less at 20mph than 30mph. And yes, I did read the study that I posted before I did so. I’m not sure why you would expect me to diligently research it.
What is strange and hypocritical beyond belief is that someone who is accusing someone else of making their mind up about something, and finding evidence to support that view, is dismissing the evidence when put in front of their eyes. But never change kiddo.
Re: 20 MPH in Wales
You have to bear in mind that Jakubclaret puts far more weight on anecdotes and what he reckons is right than actual science.
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Re: 20 MPH in Wales
Of course. And I have little intention of wasting any more time discussing with him. I just thought I’d put it straight that I have no dog in this fight, but the evidence points in one direction and a google search deliberately looking for the opposite result still points the same way.
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Re: 20 MPH in Wales
It's very easy to find opposing views, but I personally find more value in the opinions of people who have spent years behind the steering wheel than somebody fresh out of university who's studied some data & still catches the bus/train. 1 of the problems this country has is we listen to the so called experts too much & don't listen to wise experience.Rileybobs wrote: ↑Sun Oct 15, 2023 10:39 pmOf course. And I have little intention of wasting any more time discussing with him. I just thought I’d put it straight that I have no dog in this fight, but the evidence points in one direction and a google search deliberately looking for the opposite result still points the same way.
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Re: 20 MPH in Wales
Let’s be honest who actually does 20 in a 20 zone. Its going to make barely any difference, but some people need something in their life to be angry about, and this is the latest thing the Mail has told them to.
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Re: 20 MPH in Wales
Only it's Jakubclaret that has got it right.Rileybobs wrote: ↑Sun Oct 15, 2023 10:20 pmExcept I didn’t have a way of thinking until I found evidence to support that a 20mph speed limit causes less emissions than a 30mph speed limit. You appear to be projecting, and as ever it’s of great comfort to my confidence in this argument to be on the opposite side to you.
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Re: 20 MPH in Wales
I've got better things to do than find links to research to back me up. It's there, though. You believe what you want. Keep taking the bus/cycling/walking, whatever.
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Re: 20 MPH in Wales
It seems a little bit like you don’t have better things to do and that you’ve probably looked but found that you’re wrong. Personally I would have admitted so, or at the least I would have stopped digging. Oh, and I drive, and have done so for over 20 years. Not sure why you would think I don’t, or how it would invalidate my argument in any case.
Re: 20 MPH in Wales
Unfortunately it doesn't. What it proves (or provides evidence for, at least) is that under London driving conditions, a 20mph limit is better for emissions than a 30mph limit. This is not the same as saying that travelling a set distance at 20mph gives off fewer emissions than the same distance at 30mph.
On roads which are clogged up and have regular jams and stop-start traffic, 20mph may be better. On clear urban roads with decently moving traffic, it isn't.
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Re: 20 MPH in Wales
Maybe you're just unlucky.....& it's always the other drivers fault.boatshed bill wrote: ↑Sun Oct 15, 2023 7:18 pmThanks for the advice. Over 50 years of driving from Lambrettas to JCBs on our roads and I never knew about mirrors.
Six crashes (or thereabouts) is quite a lot.
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Re: 20 MPH in Wales
Well obviously the driving conditions in each town will differ. But in built up areas there is often traffic, and stopping and starting at junctions so this should naturally be taken into account. I don’t think the argument here is that driving x miles at exactly 20mph creates less emissions than driving the same amount of miles at exactly 30mph, because that isn’t a real-world scenario.dsr wrote: ↑Mon Oct 16, 2023 12:02 amUnfortunately it doesn't. What it proves (or provides evidence for, at least) is that under London driving conditions, a 20mph limit is better for emissions than a 30mph limit. This is not the same as saying that travelling a set distance at 20mph gives off fewer emissions than the same distance at 30mph.
On roads which are clogged up and have regular jams and stop-start traffic, 20mph may be better. On clear urban roads with decently moving traffic, it isn't.
Re: 20 MPH in Wales
That was exactly quicknick's argument that started this whole kerfuffle. You hold an opinion, Quicknick (and later Jakub) holds an opinion, and there is no point trying to prove each other wrong because there is every possibility that you might both be right. Your opinions don't contradict each other.Rileybobs wrote: ↑Mon Oct 16, 2023 12:14 amWell obviously the driving conditions in each town will differ. But in built up areas there is often traffic, and stopping and starting at junctions so this should naturally be taken into account. I don’t think the argument here is that driving x miles at exactly 20mph creates less emissions than driving the same amount of miles at exactly 30mph, because that isn’t a real-world scenario.
I don't think that studies applying to London can automatically be extended to every city, town and village in the UK. In many places (eg. Colne) the residential streets are 20mph and the trunk roads or through routes are 30mph, which seems very sensible and it isn't controversial. Where Wales (and Scotland) have gone wrong is in taking it to the nth degree and extending the 20mph limits even to dual carriageway A roads, if they go through even the non-residential of a town.
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Re: 20 MPH in Wales
Sorry, I thought I'd read that you don't drive. My mistake. I was skimming things.Rileybobs wrote: ↑Sun Oct 15, 2023 11:39 pmIt seems a little bit like you don’t have better things to do and that you’ve probably looked but found that you’re wrong. Personally I would have admitted so, or at the least I would have stopped digging. Oh, and I drive, and have done so for over 20 years. Not sure why you would think I don’t, or how it would invalidate my argument in any case.
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Re: 20 MPH in Wales
Non-football thread checklist:
The usual posters
The stances you can predict they’ll take before even opening it
Tone turns arsey early
At least 3 pages long
Deleted -TBC
The usual posters
The stances you can predict they’ll take before even opening it
Tone turns arsey early
At least 3 pages long
Deleted -TBC
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Re: 20 MPH in Wales
If I had to name a poster who would have been the 1 that had somebody who disagreed with this drive from Wales to buy a car off him it would have been a list of 1 and I would have been right.
Weird how lowbank is always involved in someway, be that anything from the then Burnley manager asking him for advice with training to a motorist angry at being told to drive slower then driving from Wales to Burnley to buy a car.
Weird how lowbank is always involved in someway, be that anything from the then Burnley manager asking him for advice with training to a motorist angry at being told to drive slower then driving from Wales to Burnley to buy a car.
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Re: 20 MPH in Wales
I haven’t offered a view on whether I think Wales have made the correct decision in reducing the speed limit. I’ve just debunked some of the popular arguments against the decision, namely that journeys will take much longer (they won’t) and that vehicle emissions will increase (they won’t).dsr wrote: ↑Mon Oct 16, 2023 1:15 amThat was exactly quicknick's argument that started this whole kerfuffle. You hold an opinion, Quicknick (and later Jakub) holds an opinion, and there is no point trying to prove each other wrong because there is every possibility that you might both be right. Your opinions don't contradict each other.
I don't think that studies applying to London can automatically be extended to every city, town and village in the UK. In many places (eg. Colne) the residential streets are 20mph and the trunk roads or through routes are 30mph, which seems very sensible and it isn't controversial. Where Wales (and Scotland) have gone wrong is in taking it to the nth degree and extending the 20mph limits even to dual carriageway A roads, if they go through even the non-residential of a town.
It’s not that I even hold an opinion, I’ve just posted a link to a detailed study with actual evidence. There are a number of others published by the Welsh government with similar findings. So it’s hilarious, but not surprising, that these are being ignored due to pre-conceived beliefs - and then attempts to discredit the counter-argument with personal remarks and incorrect claims such as ‘fresh out of university’ or ‘you don’t drive’.
Unfortunately this is where we’re at with discourse in this country.
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Re: 20 MPH in Wales
Taffy on the wing wrote: ↑Mon Oct 16, 2023 12:11 amMaybe you're just unlucky.....& it's always the other drivers fault.
Six crashes (or thereabouts) is quite a lot.
Some strange assumptions again.
I'd say that 1 minor incident (nobody injured) per decade is a pretty good record.
And I haven't said it was the other drivers' faults, I'd say about 50-50.
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Re: 20 MPH in Wales
Precisely, but there's no reasoning when 1 particular poster is that way out & on 1. An articles been found which ticks all the boxes there are to be ticked & that article is correct despite roads being different, towns & cities different & driving conditions different, it's an article which supports a certain view & it cannot be deviated away from despite the variety of different circumstances which pertain to the subject in question.dsr wrote: ↑Mon Oct 16, 2023 1:15 amThat was exactly quicknick's argument that started this whole kerfuffle. You hold an opinion, Quicknick (and later Jakub) holds an opinion, and there is no point trying to prove each other wrong because there is every possibility that you might both be right. Your opinions don't contradict each other.
I don't think that studies applying to London can automatically be extended to every city, town and village in the UK. In many places (eg. Colne) the residential streets are 20mph and the trunk roads or through routes are 30mph, which seems very sensible and it isn't controversial. Where Wales (and Scotland) have gone wrong is in taking it to the nth degree and extending the 20mph limits even to dual carriageway A roads, if they go through even the non-residential of a town.
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Re: 20 MPH in Wales
The ‘driving at 20 mph is more efficient and gives less emissions’ stance is totally illogical. IC engines have an efficient operating speed ( fuel consumption v’s rpm). Add in the effect of hearing and mass of car and you should end up with an optimum speed for each car.
Just think of it logically- if driving at 20 mph for say 30 miles gives off less emissions than 30 mph then, according to this logic driving at 1 mph should give off even less emissions and, taking to nth degree - letting the car engine idle while stationery will give off even less emissions.
Just think of it logically- if driving at 20 mph for say 30 miles gives off less emissions than 30 mph then, according to this logic driving at 1 mph should give off even less emissions and, taking to nth degree - letting the car engine idle while stationery will give off even less emissions.
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Re: 20 MPH in Wales
Road safety would be improved if banners and other advertising/unnecessary signage were removed from all roads. They are a major distraction.
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Re: 20 MPH in Wales
But realistically you don't drive at 20mph for 30 miles. You accelerate up to 20mph and decelerate to a stop numerous times during that 30 mile journey - not that many journeys would be a 20mph limit for 30 miles. Just read the study I posted, it explains this, and uses real-world testing as opposed to flawed 'logic'.atlantalad wrote: ↑Mon Oct 16, 2023 9:37 amThe ‘driving at 20 mph is more efficient and gives less emissions’ stance is totally illogical. IC engines have an efficient operating speed ( fuel consumption v’s rpm). Add in the effect of hearing and mass of car and you should end up with an optimum speed for each car.
Just think of it logically- if driving at 20 mph for say 30 miles gives off less emissions than 30 mph then, according to this logic driving at 1 mph should give off even less emissions and, taking to nth degree - letting the car engine idle while stationery will give off even less emissions.
Re: 20 MPH in Wales
Too many variables. Depends on how fast you accelerate, how many times you have to stop etc. The difference in fuel consumption and emissions between 20 and 30 is negligible but the total emissions doing the same the same length of journey will be worse at 20 because the journey takes longer.Rileybobs wrote: ↑Mon Oct 16, 2023 9:57 amBut realistically you don't drive at 20mph for 30 miles. You accelerate up to 20mph and decelerate to a stop numerous times during that 30 mile journey - not that many journeys would be a 20mph limit for 30 miles. Just read the study I posted, it explains this, and uses real-world testing as opposed to flawed 'logic'.
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Re: 20 MPH in Wales
What are they meant to do, they discuss it, consult on it, mention it at Conference and put it in their Manifesto. If people can’t be arsed to read it then don’t complain when something in it actually happens.Lowbankclaret wrote: ↑Sun Oct 15, 2023 10:03 pmHave you read all 4 main manifesto for the next UK election??
My advise do not miss a 12 word sentence, might come back to bite you..
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Re: 20 MPH in Wales
I have family in North Wales (both in the police) and right now the facts of the matters are that journeys are taking much longer.
Whether this will calm down in the future and return to a bit of normality time will tell but at the moment those people that have to live with daily are not happy about it.
Re: 20 MPH in Wales
Just ban cars completely. Force people to walk. Don’t allow them to fart. Saves lives and money. Perfect planet
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Re: 20 MPH in Wales
When it was modelled you needed something like an average of minimum of 900m at uninterrupted 30mph to make it more efficient than 20mph (obviously for an ICE, hybrids and EVs are more efficient at lower speeds). For anyone with a basic understanding of physics this isn't too surprising as the relationship is the square of the speed so accelerating up to 30mph requires 2.25 times more energy (fuel consumption) than accelerating up to 20mph. There's not many urban journeys where you get such clear routes with no junctions, traffic lights, crossings, etc.Firthy wrote: ↑Mon Oct 16, 2023 10:06 amToo many variables. Depends on how fast you accelerate, how many times you have to stop etc. The difference in fuel consumption and emissions between 20 and 30 is negligible but the total emissions doing the same the same length of journey will be worse at 20 because the journey takes longer.
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Re: 20 MPH in Wales
I fear that, like myself, you're wasting your time. This is all in the study that people are telling me is wrong and is trumped by their 'logic'. And yes, EV's are certainly more efficient at 20mph than 30mph.aggi wrote: ↑Mon Oct 16, 2023 11:26 amWhen it was modelled you needed something like an average of minimum of 900m at uninterrupted 30mph to make it more efficient than 20mph (obviously for an ICE, hybrids and EVs are more efficient at lower speeds). For anyone with a basic understanding of physics this isn't too surprising as the relationship is the square of the speed so accelerating up to 30mph requires 2.25 times more energy (fuel consumption) than accelerating up to 20mph. There's not many urban journeys where you get such clear routes with no junctions, traffic lights, crossings, etc.
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Re: 20 MPH in Wales
The fundamental error with that study as DSR tried pointing out is that London doesn't cover all the environmental factors of the UK as an whole country. The united kingdoms transport infrastructure doesn't start & end in London you have other cities & towns & within them urban & rural areas with all different types of vehicles using them.
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Re: 20 MPH in Wales
It's 20mph for large parts of Fleetwood.
Got to admit, it feels unnecessarily slow.
Got to admit, it feels unnecessarily slow.
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Re: 20 MPH in Wales
The amounderness way & A585 can be a bottleneck at certain times especially around the river wyre pub. I'm not quite sure what they are doing there but I know the egyptians built pyramids with their bare hands quicker.
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Re: 20 MPH in Wales
Yep…. I drive that way all the time. You have to hope the River Wyre pub got a massive compensation payment from someone otherwise it’s a miracle they are still trading. The main activity that goes on around that stretch of road is rearranging the hundreds of traffic cones into ever more elaborate patterns.
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Re: 20 MPH in Wales
it's when they find out someone involved in the decision making process also has shares in the Welsh sign making firm that you need to start digging...
[disclaimer - this is a joke and does not make any allegations at all]
[disclaimer - this is a joke and does not make any allegations at all]
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Re: 20 MPH in Wales
To be fair i did say maybe... I've never had a crash in almost 50 yrs driving, maybe i'm just lucky.boatshed bill wrote: ↑Mon Oct 16, 2023 9:29 amSome strange assumptions again.
I'd say that 1 minor incident (nobody injured) per decade is a pretty good record.
And I haven't said it was the other drivers' faults, I'd say about 50-50.
Re: 20 MPH in Wales
Yes, I'm well aware that for some on here actual physics is trumped by what Bob down the pub said.
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Re: 20 MPH in Wales
Not even a tiny bump?Taffy on the wing wrote: ↑Mon Oct 16, 2023 6:17 pmTo be fair i did say maybe... I've never had a crash in almost 50 yrs driving, maybe i'm just lucky.
I hit a badger once, that counts as one of mine.
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Re: 20 MPH in Wales
Did the study realise that loads of journeys would be spent doing less than 15 mph in grid lock.
If a journey took 20 minutes before and now it takes 50 minutes, you’re going to use more fuel.
That even applies to an electric car, probably even worse in an electric car in winter, lights and heating on. With its cold efficiency being worse as well.
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Re: 20 MPH in Wales
I know this might sound like an alien concept to you, but some of us just call it plain common sense you either it or you don't & you my friend are clearly lacking.
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Re: 20 MPH in Wales
Yes, the study accounted for the fact that a lot of journeys through built up areas include a level of congestion and stopping and starting, and that the average speed across a journey is far less than the actual speed limit.Lowbankclaret wrote: ↑Mon Oct 16, 2023 7:56 pmDid the study realise that loads of journeys would be spent doing less than 15 mph in grid lock.
If a journey took 20 minutes before and now it takes 50 minutes, you’re going to use more fuel.
That even applies to an electric car, probably even worse in an electric car in winter, lights and heating on. With its cold efficiency being worse as well.
I doubt they modelled a situation where a journey that took 20 minutes with a 30mph limit then took 50 minutes with a 20mph limit because it’s just not a realistic scenario.
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Re: 20 MPH in Wales
Yea get that , scenario planning never really predicts the reality.Rileybobs wrote: ↑Mon Oct 16, 2023 8:24 pmYes, the study accounted for the fact that a lot of journeys through built up areas include a level of congestion and stopping and starting, and that the average speed across a journey is far less than the actual speed limit.
I doubt they modelled a situation where a journey that took 20 minutes with a 30mph limit then took 50 minutes with a 20mph limit because it’s just not a realistic scenario.
It’s getting so much bad press, it will be overturned.
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Re: 20 MPH in Wales
RR used modelling for a new turbine blade facility in Derby.Rileybobs wrote: ↑Mon Oct 16, 2023 8:24 pmYes, the study accounted for the fact that a lot of journeys through built up areas include a level of congestion and stopping and starting, and that the average speed across a journey is far less than the actual speed limit.
I doubt they modelled a situation where a journey that took 20 minutes with a 30mph limit then took 50 minutes with a 20mph limit because it’s just not a realistic scenario.
Made all the employees sign new contracts .
Shut the old facility, opened the new one.
Two weeks later after the new facility had made no blades.
They re opened the old one, moved everyone back.
Took real engineers a year to get the new facility back open and another year to transition across.
You cannot model real issues.
Making every 30 mph to a 20 just is not going to work.
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Re: 20 MPH in Wales
I'm going to test this issue of a 20mph speed limit taking so much longer on my way home from work later. Waze says it should take 14 minutes. I will not go above 20mph in the 30mph zones and see how long it takes me
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Re: 20 MPH in Wales
Well, you obviously can.
Re: 20 MPH in Wales
Having applied some common sense to this I reckon it will take a smidge under 3 days.Roosterbooster wrote: ↑Mon Oct 16, 2023 11:02 pmI'm going to test this issue of a 20mph speed limit taking so much longer on my way home from work later. Waze says it should take 14 minutes. I will not go above 20mph in the 30mph zones and see how long it takes me
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Re: 20 MPH in Wales
In an entirely unexpected/unbelievable/predictable turn of events....Roosterbooster wrote: ↑Mon Oct 16, 2023 11:02 pmI'm going to test this issue of a 20mph speed limit taking so much longer on my way home from work later. Waze says it should take 14 minutes. I will not go above 20mph in the 30mph zones and see how long it takes me
It took me exactly 14 minutes
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Re: 20 MPH in Wales
And that ties in with exactly what I experienced in Snowdonia and Anglesey.
In normal driving conditions ie no traffic jams - which would cost you time anyway - it made no noticeable difference.
Those claiming times are doubled or whatever have a political agenda and are not interested in the reality.
In normal driving conditions ie no traffic jams - which would cost you time anyway - it made no noticeable difference.
Those claiming times are doubled or whatever have a political agenda and are not interested in the reality.
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Re: 20 MPH in Wales
The feedback I'm getting from people who live in Wales is that journeys are taking longer but strangely enough traffic jams are taking place in areas where there were none before. I feel that some of this will be due to people adapting to the new regulations but I'm still of the opinion that apart from schools and heavily pedestrianised areas 20mph is too damned slow. I set my cruise control at 20mph and the engine handled it fine but an old lady on a motorised cart waved as she sped past and cyclists were getting agitated behind me