Kompany: time to go

[Boss Hogg]

The investors will have a big say in this. It also appeared in the documentary that VK was very much Pace’s choice and he had to convince the other Directors. I think some serious questions will have been asked and there will be a lot of pressure to turn it around on Saturday.

[Big Vinny K]

Well hE over spent last season as explained in mission to Burnley.
We will get around 100 million for this season.

He has got some extra from two American investors.

I do follow JJwatt and he has suddenly gone very silent on social media.

Pace has bet the ranch, better back him and VK.

Just an aside, under the previous owners after several years of underspending and saving hard we had 50 million in the bank.

Not rocket science.

1) we brought more in player sales than we spent - so how can he have overspent?

2) the wage bill was reduced massively from the £90m plus under Dyche / Garlick

3) the £100m transfer spend will be spread over 3 or probably 4 years

4) under the previous owners they increased the wage bill to the highest in the clubs history.

5) The owner of the club denied Dyche any transfer spend for a number of transfer windows whilst at the same time allowing the contracts of our most valuable players to run down so they could walk away on free transfers. He did this in the knowledge of selling the club and building up the bank balance so that this became part of the deal.

6) there is a good chance that the current owners have attracted new investment.

You might think Pace has bet the ranch but I do not see any evidence of this being the case. You have certainly not provided any.

Defending the previous owner when he was the person who agreed the structure of the sale makes little or no sense either especially given what happened to the relationship between Dyche and the board and the squad he was left with.

[CoolClaret]

1) we brought more in player sales than we spent - so how can he have overspent?

2) the wage bill was reduced massively from the £90m plus under Dyche / Garlick

3) the £100m transfer spend will be spread over 3 or probably 4 years

4) under the previous owners they increased the wage bill to the highest in the clubs history.

5) The owner of the club denied Dyche any transfer spend for a number of transfer windows whilst at the same time allowing the contracts of our most valuable players to run down so they could walk away on free transfers. He did this in the knowledge of selling the club and building up the bank balance so that this became part of the deal.

6) there is a good chance that the current owners have attracted new investment.

You might think Pace has bet the ranch but I do not see any evidence of this being the case. You have certainly not provided any.

Defending the previous owner when he was the person who agreed the structure of the sale makes little or no sense either especially given what happened to the relationship between Dyche and the board and the squad he was left with.

We have not brought in more in player sales than we have spent taking this year into account - we also I believe haven’t fully paid off the debt from the leveraged buy out and have also taken more loans out to finance player purchases.

You keep harping on about the wage bill as though it was completely out of control when it’s proven it was anything but that - clearly was in line with league position / bonuses etc

Of course the transfers are spread out - but what happens next year, we want transfers right? Especially if we’re selling some? Then we have to purchase again. The money doesn’t just disappear.

[Lowbankclaret]

Simple fact, we have bet the ranch.
Under the previous owners we spent a fraction of what Pace has spent.

We need to back VK.

We have no money to back anyone else.

[Jakubclaret]

Simple fact, we have bet the ranch.
Under the previous owners we spent a fraction of what Pace has spent.

We need to back VK.

We have no money to back anyone else.

Daft as a brush to think another option doesn’t exist apart from backing VK, money might be tight but it’s worthwhile remembering VK himself will be on a fair wedge & in part is the reason why money is tight.

[Bowclaret]

We have the best young Manager in WORLD football - BACK HIM !

[Big Vinny K]

We have not brought in more in player sales than we have spent taking this year into account - we also I believe haven’t fully paid off the debt from the leveraged buy out and have also taken more loans out to finance player purchases.

You keep harping on about the wage bill as though it was completely out of control when it’s proven it was anything but that - clearly was in line with league position / bonuses etc

Of course the transfers are spread out - but what happens next year, we want transfers right? Especially if we’re selling some? Then we have to purchase again. The money doesn’t just disappear.

I wasn’t talking about this year clearly. I was referring to the previous year because it is obviously relevant to our position before the summer transfer spend.

I have never said the wage bill was out of control - stop making stuff up. And for you to use the word “harping” about anything is the definition of ironic.

I know from your previous posts you struggle with our finances but the relevance of a club that has a £90m plus wage bill and an owner who is not prepared to subsidise losses is that it leaves less room for transfer spend (and as we so no room when you are preparing to sell the club)

As for next year that’s pretty hard to answer when we do not even have the 2023 accounts and are still guessing at debt levels, new investment, and the ownership / company structure, etc etc.

Just because things have gone pear shaped on the pitch does not mean all is catastrophic off the pitch. It may just be that experienced business men and investors have scenarios and plans which cover a relegation scenario. We know from VK that they 100% had plans to cover the club if we did not get promoted last season so why would they all of a sudden abandon this type of strategy and “bet the ranch” ?

[Superjohnnyfrancis]

Simple fact, we have bet the ranch.
Under the previous owners we spent a fraction of what Pace has spent.

We need to back VK.

We have no money to back anyone else.

Nobody thought we could replace Dyche and be successful, a league lower and the league was ****** , now were in a higher league we look like we cant even defend a simple cross and header move, the defence are a shambles, all bought by VK.

They were going to spend £30m on Maatsen but i get your general point. We arent cash rich but if he cant get a tune out of this expensively assembled team i dont think Pace's investors will just accept relegation, they'll try to stay up and if that means potting him to try someone else im afraid they will have to do it.

Jesse Marsch is a big no no though just incase your reading Alan

[CoolClaret]

I know from your previous posts you struggle with our finances but the relevance of a club that has a £90m plus wage bill and an owner who is not prepared to subsidise losses is that it leaves less room for transfer spend (and as we so no room when you are preparing to sell the club)

The wage bill was well within operating budget.

It never exceeded turnover - far from it.

Like I say wait for the next lot of books - I’d imagine our wage bill Is double than the last reported figure, then factor in our outgoings.

It’s not ‘doomsday but it’s not like we’re speculating right now, more than I think is reasonable.

As for ‘not knowing finances’ - doesn’t take a rocket scientist to figure out that if your outgoings outweigh your incomings over time then you start to get insurmountable levels of debt (not to mention compound interest) land that’s where it gets silly.

Happened to bigger clubs that ours.

[Jakubclaret]

VK so far has spent sh1tloads of dosh with absolutely nothing to show for it.

[warksclaret]

I dont want to see a change believe me, as I think we will then be in a bigger mess, but the last three games have convinced me that we will find winning games going forwards increasingly difficult. We will continue to concede , largely through defensive frailties and naivitey, and we will continue to struggle creating chances.

When we score first we cannot retain the lead, and when they score first its followed by two or three more, as our heads drop.I thought after Man Utd we had turned the tide, but arguably we have got progressively worse despite easier fixtures. VK was brilliant last year, everything he did turned to gold, to such a point Chelsea and Spurs seriously considered him as a manager. For most of us he still has huge credit in the bank

This season the pressure on him has progressively built up and understandably its had a huge impact on him.Its so fierce I think it has affected his judgement on the playing side. Look and listen to his recent interviews and his body language on the touchline. When was the last time he praised our fans-it was every week a year ago. Our support has been great, with most home and away sold out.Hes now fully on the back foot rather than the front and is really struggling to provide answers to our disastrous form instead diverting attention to a VAR decision several months ago

At the end of the day it will be decided by our Chairman and Board.Last year 11 PL clubs changed their managers. It would be a real eyeopener to see how AP and his team are looking at the situation right now. Lets hope and prayer for a miracle with our form and results starting Saturday

[CoolClaret]

I really don’t want him gone either it must be said.

I hate sacking managers.

I’ll be properly cheesed off if we do, leaving Pace’s credibility in the gutter after the sound bites he was coming out with last year

(to which anyone with half a brain could see through)

[fidelcastro]

We have the best young Manager in WORLD football - BACK HIM !

Who told you that?

[jojomk1]

Who told you that?

Vinny and Alan

[beddie]

No, no and no. Admittedly the footballs not good but we all have to have some balls and stick with him. Sometimes in life you have to dig in and bite the bullet. Last season was incredible and this year it’s the opposite. It’s a learning process for him and his staff. He’s an intelligent man and needs time to adjust and turn things around. He’ll come good, it’s whether you the supporters and the Board have the patience to see it out. We could very well regret sacking him. If we need no drop again, so be it. I’m convinced he’ll get it right. So get behind him and the team, no more of this bloody negativity.

[evensteadiereddie]

Brilliant, beddie.

[claretonthecoast1882]

Well hE over spent last season as explained in mission to Burnley.
We will get around 100 million for this season.

He has got some extra from two American investors.

I do follow JJwatt and he has suddenly gone very silent on social media.

Pace has bet the ranch, better back him and VK.

Just an aside, under the previous owners after several years of underspending and saving hard we had 50 million in the bank.

Not rocket science.

Maybe not rocket science but your past financial posts on here show anything you suggest to do with finance should be laughed at and ignored

[northeastclaret]

No, no and no. Admittedly the footballs not good but we all have to have some balls and stick with him. Sometimes in life you have to dig in and bite the bullet. Last season was incredible and this year it’s the opposite. It’s a learning process for him and his staff. He’s an intelligent man and needs time to adjust and turn things around. He’ll come good, it’s whether you the supporters and the Board have the patience to see it out. We could very well regret sacking him. If we need no drop again, so be it. I’m convinced he’ll get it right. So get behind him and the team, no more of this bloody negativity.

In deciding to have the patience to ‘see things out’ the Board obviously have the benefit of asking him how he intends to improve things and whether they have faith in him to achieve it. It’s not blind faith, they will be very concerned and doing exactly what we are doing, analysing what’s going wrong and looking for signs of improvement. Which at the moment are vastly outweighed by what’s wrong.

[Longsidelenny1882]

Iam with beddie all day long utc

[Belgianclaret]

Young manager who outperformed last season and again a very young (but talented) squad.
Football philosophy of VK is purist and entertaining to watch (football under SD was more realistic but very boring at times).
As I said at the very start, VK will not sacrifice his style of play, so don’t expect any major changes.
What I could suggest however is that he makes more use of Cork, even if it is only for one half. He’s still a very good player who’s experience can be invaluable in difficult times.
As for me, I’ve thoroughly enjoyed the football after SD and would continue to do so if we dropped back. Half of the PL games are not worth watching nowadays due to the enormous gulf in class.
We need to stick with the gaffer and support our lads through the tough times.
UTC, no matter what

[brexit]

We have the best young Manager in WORLD football - BACK HIM !

On what evidence?

[brexit]

In deciding to have the patience to ‘see things out’ the Board obviously have the benefit of asking him how he intends to improve things and whether they have faith in him to achieve it. It’s not blind faith, they will be very concerned and doing exactly what we are doing, analysing what’s going wrong and looking for signs of improvement. Which at the moment are vastly outweighed by what’s wrong.

It maybe JJ watt who decides VK fate not AP. I don't know much about American Football but I am under the impression it is about adjusting your tactics to suit the oppositions style of play - i would think JJ would be asking some searching questions of VK. This may lead to relations between board and VK becoming strained.

[Shaggy]

VK should be safe this season for me. The only time I would put this into doubt is if we go on a horrendous run of losing like 8-9-10 games in a row shopping 2-3+ goals every game in the process. It would only be natural then to seriously question him especially if he changed nothing tactically in that period.

[Steve-Harpers-perm]

Hopefully those on the ground tomorrow will get behind Kompany and the team and hopefully keep the usual keyboard warriors who demand sackings after any run of defeats quiet.

[AGENT_CLARET]

Let's make Turf Moor bounce tomorrow and see what happens

[jedi_master]

We're performing like a team with absolutely no confidence - they need a win badly, and a good performance to go with it. If we could somehow find it within us tomorrow you don't know if that could make a run happen with a team like this. Young players thrive with confidence and wilt without it.

[Jakubclaret]

Hopefully those on the ground tomorrow will get behind Kompany and the team and hopefully keep the usual keyboard warriors who demand sackings after any run of defeats quiet.

The so called "keyboard warriors" as you so eloquently describe do probably have better things to do than discuss whether the man managing the club is fit for that purpose, I've yet to see anybody demand anything the only thing I've seen is a group of posters rightfully question & discuss what the hell is going on with the club at this moment in time, but please feel free to bury your head into the sand even deeper I won't stop you you seem to be doing a fine job of it yourself.

[Big Vinny K]

Like I say wait for the next lot of books - I’d imagine our wage bill Is double than the last reported figure, then factor in our outgoings.



As for ‘not knowing finances’ - doesn’t take a rocket scientist to figure out that if your outgoings outweigh your incomings over time then you start to get insurmountable levels of debt (not to mention compound interest) land that’s where it gets silly.

Happened to bigger clubs that ours.

You think the wages will be twice as that last reported ?
So £180m ?
Ok.
“Compound interest” ?????
What are you talking about ?

Maybe it is rocket science !

[spt_claret]

We know from VK that they 100% had plans to cover the club if we did not get promoted last season so why would they all of a sudden abandon this type of strategy and “bet the ranch” ?

Because they already did last summer and Kompany's media talk was literally just media talk. Mission to Burnley highlights it very clearly, we bet the ranch in the summer to the point we overspent so much Pace lost track of the spending, and then in the January it was a tough sell from Kompany to get the funds for Foster.
We've already hitched our wagon financially to this. It's one thing to show a profit on the books with creative accounting but we have incurred significant expenditure, yes it will be amortised over the durations of contracts but that will add on to other amortisations, wage fluctuations, future spend such as this summer et cetera meaning that even if it's not all in one go expenditure, it incrementally increases the annual expenditure meaning we at the very least will need to maintain cashflow- preferably grow it hence the focus on player trading and growing our commercial profile wherever possible via both a marketable playing style and investment deals with the likes of JJ Watt.

Again I want to keep Kompany but you're claiming there's no evidence when the evidence was literally recorded on film at the time it happened. We already bet big on promotion.

[xxmunkyennuixx]

Sitting through bad results and poor quality defending is **** but Vinny clearly deserves patience and understanding. Last season was incredible and now is our time to repay him. This shouldn't be terminal for him, a fundamental part of learning is making mistakes. He needs to be given the time and space to learn. He has shown ability and is a good leader. Maybe it is time for Claret and Blue Army to make a return?

[Big Vinny K]

Because they already did last summer and Kompany's media talk was literally just media talk. Mission to Burnley highlights it very clearly, we bet the ranch in the summer to the point we overspent so much Pace lost track of the spending, and then in the January it was a tough sell from Kompany to get the funds for Foster.
We've already hitched our wagon financially to this. It's one thing to show a profit on the books with creative accounting but we have incurred significant expenditure, yes it will be amortised over the durations of contracts but that will add on to other amortisations, wage fluctuations, future spend such as this summer et cetera meaning that even if it's not all in one go expenditure, it incrementally increases the annual expenditure meaning we at the very least will need to maintain cashflow- preferably grow it hence the focus on player trading and growing our commercial profile wherever possible via both a marketable playing style and investment deals with the likes of JJ Watt.

Again I want to keep Kompany but you're claiming there's no evidence when the evidence was literally recorded on film at the time it happened. We already bet big on promotion.

My take on that was they agreed a budget and that an opportunity came up to buy Foster so they increased the budget.
That does not mean it wasn’t within our financial means.

[Steve-Harpers-perm]

The so called "keyboard warriors" as you so eloquently describe do probably have better things to do than discuss whether the man managing the club is fit for that purpose, I've yet to see anybody demand anything the only thing I've seen is a group of posters rightfully question & discuss what the hell is going on with the club at this moment in time, but please feel free to bury your head into the sand even deeper I won't stop you you seem to be doing a fine job of it yourself.

The usual keyboard warriors we know who they are on here. Bring back up any threads after a run of defeats under Dyche bet the same posters were demanding him sacked.

[Jakubclaret]

The usual keyboard warriors we know who they are on here. Bring back up any threads after a run of defeats under Dyche bet the same posters were demanding him sacked.

Look at the all bottomed 3 sides throughout the leagues & go on all the fans forums & I reckon within them you will see the respective managers positions getting questioned. It's not unusual it's a results based business & whilst down there incapable of picking any sort of positive result up questions will be asked. Demanding is a strong word people are questioning & having doubts that is all.

[claretandy]

First time I've heard him mention "going down strong" in his recent press conference.

[CoolClaret]

You think the wages will be twice as that last reported ?
So £180m ?
Ok.
“Compound interest” ?????
What are you talking about ?

Maybe it is rocket science !

No and you know that i didn’t mean that

I mean twice of the ‘reduced figure’ that I forgot however much it was being reported as.

What’s compound interest? Oh dear - I’m afraid it’s you that doesn’t understand finances!

[claretonthecoast1882]

No and you know that i didn’t mean that

I mean twice of the ‘reduced figure’ that I forgot however much it was being reported as.

What’s compound interest? Oh dear - I’m afraid it’s you that doesn’t understand finances!

I am willing to have a wager with you that he has more experience in finance than you have and will probably ever have.

[Steve1956]

I hope Kompany dosent get sacked,wasn't it a 3 year project?
He is such a lovely fella as well,it would be very sad to see him go,let him get on with it and let's see were it takes us

[Venkys4eva]

First time I've heard him mention "going down strong" in his recent press conference.

He actually said that??

[CoolClaret]

I am willing to have a wager with you that he has more experience in finance than you have and will probably ever have.

Look all I’m saying is that it’s pretty clear that we’re certainly pushing it and bored of pretending that we aren’t.

MtB showed that, numerous loans taken out to purchase the club as well as finance players. (I have no way of knowing about the structure of said loans - I’m sure someone knows about them)

I don’t think that’s a particularly sound approach for a club of our size because we don’t have the means to support it if it goes belly up with the sort of revenue we create in the second tier when parachute payments dry up.

Most clubs in the Championship are operating at a loss - I believe we were set up (before leveraged buyout) to be able to handle relegations in a healthier way meaning that a following promotion wasn’t necessarily a must need gamble.

[The Shire Claret]

I actually registered just to check if this post is serious ?

Time to go ?

Smoke me a kipper that's a bit much

UTC

[spt_claret]

My take on that was they agreed a budget and that an opportunity came up to buy Foster so they increased the budget.
That does not mean it wasn’t within our financial means.

Pace clearly referenced overspending in the original summer window and losing track of the financial picture. He was verbally and visibly worried about the ramifications of failing promotion some time before the Foster deal, but two months prior to the window things started to click and promotion looked likelier so he speculated further.
That suggests to me that the financial means that we were working on, were assuming promotion at the first attempt. In other words that for all the talk of the 2-3 year Championship sustainability plan, in practice we spent last summer while working on PL cashflow from summer 2023 onwards.
As for your other question to CoolClaret, compound interest is interest on interest effectively. Interest on the principal sum plus all accrued interest. It's a very profitable venture for the moneylender and something that can rapidly plunge the person in debt into financial peril or permanent debt if they don't quickly get their revenue above the interest and start paying it down.
We've paid off a big chunk of the initial debt, but the worry is that if this has been paid using other investment monies, that's investment that will be expecting a return- ie profit ie compound interest. Taking out debt to pay off debt is not sustainable for long, which again is why PL survival is imperative for its own cashflow benefits, not to mention that it means if we've survived, our players have played well enough that we can fulfill the objective of selling for profit at a greater margin than if we're relegated. Not to mention survival also heightens the club profile considerably worldwide compared to being in the Championship which is important for commercial & marketing revenue, another key aspect of this strategy.

it's another reason I disagree with letting the Academy slide and think keeping its top status was important- it might not generate the same megasales as some really astute transfer dealing (Although Dwight sure generated a lot) but the per-player investment is lower, meaning that the sale needed to turn a profit is lower, and that it's easier to hit a higher relative profit margin- which is important for both investor confidence and prioritising cost-cutting in the event of a revenue drop such as relegation.

[DocSavage]

Absolute nonsense

[Chester Perry]

I am willing to have a wager with you that he has more experience in finance than you have and will probably ever have.

which is likely to be over a thousand times more than me

[boyyanno]

My take on that was they agreed a budget and that an opportunity came up to buy Foster so they increased the budget.
That does not mean it wasn’t within our financial means.

Why do you ignore the relevant bits of info. It was quite clear on MTB that we had gone over budget.

Did you watch it?

[alwaysaclaret]

VK should be safe this season for me. The only time I would put this into doubt is if we go on a horrendous run of losing like 8-9-10 games in a row shopping 2-3+ goals every game in the process. It would only be natural then to seriously question him especially if he changed nothing tactically in that period.

Not a fan of sacking him right now, but is this not what's happening, we are continually void of change or upturn in results, and seem unable to stop conceding 2,3, and 4 goals per game, questions should be asked.

[Big Vinny K]

Just back in.
This thread is hilarious.
Compound interest is interest on interest - well I never.
Every day is a school day.

I love the thought of people thinking that commercial loans of £100m racking up compound interest. Maybe AP got it all on a credit card and he’s just paying the £5 monthly payment ?

Maybe rather than assuming our owners are as daft as some of the people who post on this board and that they have ‘bet the ranch” take a look at the way they bought this club and how it was funded and maybe give them a modicum of credit that they are actually financially astute. Just because most fans don’t understand the financial structure of the club does not mean the owners and investors don’t either.

[spt_claret]

Just back in.
This thread is hilarious.
Compound interest is interest on interest - well I never.
Every day is a school day.

I love the thought of people thinking that commercial loans of £100m racking up compound interest. Maybe AP got it all on a credit card and he’s just paying the £5 monthly payment ?

Maybe rather than assuming our owners are as daft as some of the people who post on this board and that they have ‘bet the ranch” take a look at the way they bought this club and how it was funded and maybe give them a modicum of credit that they are actually financially astute. Just because most fans don’t understand the financial structure of the club does not mean the owners and investors don’t either.

You were playing dumb asking CoolClaret what it was. I answered and made a separate point about our general debt structure based on the (limited) info we have available.
Maybe instead of this pathetic tactic of trying to get people to explain their points so you can sneer and mock what they say while offering nothing beyond a trite appeal to authority of "Theyre professionals and youre daft, they understand you dont" you can actually contribute a counter argument?
Christ alive this board is the pits when people refuse to even engage honestly.

[CoolClaret]

You were playing dumb asking CoolClaret what it was. I answered.
Maybe instead of this pathetic tactic of trying to get people to explain their points so you can sneer and mock what they say while offering nothing beyond a trite appeal to authority of "Theyre professionals and youre daft, they understand you dont" you can actually contribute a counter argument?
Christ alive this board is the pits when people refuse to even engage honestly.

This is BVK in a nutshell, the King of the strawman argument & the appeal to authority fallacies.

[boyyanno]

Just back in.
This thread is hilarious.
Compound interest is interest on interest - well I never.
Every day is a school day.

I love the thought of people thinking that commercial loans of £100m racking up compound interest. Maybe AP got it all on a credit card and he’s just paying the £5 monthly payment ?

Maybe rather than assuming our owners are as daft as some of the people who post on this board and that they have ‘bet the ranch” take a look at the way they bought this club and how it was funded and maybe give them a modicum of credit that they are actually financially astute. Just because most fans don’t understand the financial structure of the club does not mean the owners and investors don’t either.

All the hallmarks of- I can't answer what's been put to me so I'll have a little rant about everyone.

You've been proven to be wrong on multiple counts across multiple threads.

This one you've said Alan pace stuck to a budget. Despite the evidence showing completely the opposite- do you want the link to MTB?

On another you said we'd sell players to raise funds and lower the wage bill but then also said the same players would take us back up.

[Big Vinny K]

Why do you ignore the relevant bits of info. It was quite clear on MTB that we had gone over budget.

Did you watch it?

Yes I did watch it.
As I already said going over a budget set at the beginning of a season as a result of the money we spent in January is not necessarily as drastic or concerning as people are making out on here. Budgets are fluid and they change as circumstances change - by January promotion was looking a lot more likely than when the budget would have been set on the summer before we even kicked a ball. Other things may have also changed by January in terms of new investors.
Didn’t we spend around £10m in transfer fees in January - after spending around £23m in the summer.

Bearing in mind the money we had brought in from selling players and what we had took off the wage bill with the very realistic prospect of premier league football now imminent it does not sound that much of a risk to me to commit the club to around another £2.5m a year assuming it will have been staggered over 3 or 4 years, It might make for good TV too but we were hardly in a Sunderland type position with our finances when they did their documentary.