Everton docked 10 points

[bumba]

The stats over 10 years suggest they do, yes.

The doom-mongers do not like it, but the run up to and including Everton at home is a chance to really create a gap to them. If we don’t take it that is another matter but it is there to have a go at. As form shifts, sides can look very different to what they did before, for better or for worse, including us and Everton, though I’ll admit it does feel easy now for Dyche to instil a siege mentality.

Given the uncertainty over compensation we have to try to make that points penalty worth something to us.

It doesn't matter what previous teams have done under the lights, this is a whole new team

[Clive 1960]

Simon Jordan reckons there's zero chance of any clubs being able make a claim from Everton, we will have to wait and see.

[Newcastleclaret93]

Simon Jordan reckons there's zero chance of any clubs being able make a claim from Everton, we will have to wait and see.

Must admit i tend to agree.

We are going to sue Everton because the premier league didn’t deduct points from them?

It’s a bit of a nonsensical argument

[claretonthecoast1882]

Simon Jordan reckons there's zero chance of any clubs being able make a claim from Everton, we will have to wait and see.

If Simon Jordan knew half as much as he thinks he does he might not have had to get out of Crystal Palace after losing all his money trying to run a football club

[Fretters]

Must admit i tend to agree.

We are going to sue Everton because the premier league didn’t deduct points from them?

It’s a bit of a nonsensical argument

No, we're suing them for cheating and staying up at our expense. The points deduction has just proved that they did, giving us the ammo to sue.

[agreenwood]

Must admit i tend to agree.

We are going to sue Everton because the premier league didn’t deduct points from them?

It’s a bit of a nonsensical argument

Presumably Nick Di Marco thinks we have a case. He is afterall one of the leading barristers in sports litigation.

Appreciate he’s not a failed football chairman or an UTC poster with an opinion on every topic, but he might know a little bit.

[Stevie Morgan]

Must admit i tend to agree.

We are going to sue Everton because the premier league didn’t deduct points from them?

It’s a bit of a nonsensical argument

Erm, they did.

[NewClaret]

Must admit i tend to agree.

We are going to sue Everton because the premier league didn’t deduct points from them?

It’s a bit of a nonsensical argument

No, I imagine we would sue Everton because we’d assert that their cheating caused us loss (in the form of relegation).

They did deduct points from them which is means so I’m not sure what you mean by that.

[Bowclaret]

We will get our compensation for sure. Everton broke the rules (clearly) resulting in us getting relegated. Clear cut case.

And as for Jordan……That’s why he’s second string on a terrible radio station after failing to run a football club.

[CrosspoolClarets]

Simon Jordan reckons there's zero chance of any clubs being able make a claim from Everton, we will have to wait and see.

Jordan must disagree with the KC chair of the commission, who said that we do appear to have a basis for a claim.

Whether that claim is successful is another matter, but it good enough to be allowed to make it and for the commission to spend time judging on it.

[Silkyskills1]

Must admit i tend to agree.

We are going to sue Everton because the premier league didn’t deduct points from them?

It’s a bit of a nonsensical argument

And after a hiatus, a brief one admittedly, of a few days here he is yet again looking to provoke posters into further anti-Burnley arguments with the sole aim of ..... well, you tell me. Perhaps because he can.

[daveisaclaret]

Nobody can say with any real certainty what Simon Jordan's opinion would be if his job wasn't to be provocative about football on the radio.

[GodIsADeeJay81]

Simon Jordan reckons there's zero chance of any clubs being able make a claim from Everton, we will have to wait and see.

I like Jordan and he’s usually worth a listen, but it’s worth remembering that he was adamant we’d be knackered after relegation so he can be wrong about stuff

[ClaretPete001]

Yep, that’s the paragraph.

Firstly, I don’t buy your argument that they just breached a technicality. They broke the whole rule, by nearly a fifth. I’d call that a flagrant breach. Bare in mind here, the PSR guidance is actually to make no losses. They allow £105m as a margin for error. They smashed that and then some.

Nor do I buy the “but they were caught out by terrible, unforeseen circumstances” argument. It was their choice to invest in a stadium, covid hit us all (and they got very generous allowances considered as part of that) and the Russian wanting to sponsor the stadium for 20 years is dodgy AF.

Nor do I buy that poor old Everton, top division club for 70 years, we’re just investing to survive. The Telegraph article contains this:

“The reason Everton were sailing close to the wind in the first place lay in the extraordinary investment that Moshiri made in chasing success at the start of his ownership. He has spent £750 million since taking control in February 2016, with by far the biggest chunk going on transfers, wages, coaching changes, and associated fees.

By the end of his first five years, Everton’s net transfer spend was £230 million (the sixth-highest in the Premier League during the period) and they had one of the world’s best-paid managers, Carlo Ancelotti, on £14 million per year, having already spent £37 million hiring and paying off coaches under Moshiri. “What we’re ultimately guilty of is that we dared to dream and rolled the dice,” said a source at Goodison. “The football club took itself to the line.”

They signed James Rodriguez on £250k per week. They recklessly pursued success and came unstuck. Where your sympathy comes from I can’t understand.

What I will concede is that they then tried to get their ship in order a bit and reign things in. Just not enough. In my mind “trying to survive” by breaking the rules is just not fair because someone who does the same but stays within the rules is unfairly disadvantaged. In this particular year, it was us. And it cost us a fortune as you know.

Had that had the worst consequences, and sent us out of business, I wonder if you’d have so much sympathy for Everton?

As far as I can tell Moshiri has never had a net spend in one season to equal the amount we have spent this summer. Of course, it's complicated but the highest net spend I can see is in 17/18 when they had a net spend of £80 million.

If a club like Everton has the sixth highest net spend in the PL that is not reckless spending that is just the kind of spending they need to maintain their position. They are a top 8 club with gates around 40,000.

And their spending over the last 5 years has seen them in the bottom 3 of spenders (and often on the pitch).

The amount they eventually benefited from was around £20 million and they tried to resolve their position over an extended period against the backdrop of Covid, a new stadium and sanctions.

If that warrants ten points then so be it but City have 112 breaches cited against them.

I only have sympathy for their fans because they have reckless owners who have put the pursuit of wealth ahead of the well being of their club and the game.

I guess you could argue their fans having enjoyed the spending without a great deal of foresight deserve the consequences but then again people in glass houses and all that.....

[ClaretPete001]

Jordan must disagree with the KC chair of the commission, who said that we do appear to have a basis for a claim.

Whether that claim is successful is another matter, but it good enough to be allowed to make it and for the commission to spend time judging on it.

I think we most certainly have a claim but who wants to see football clubs suing each other?

[NewClaret]

I think we most certainly have a claim but who wants to see football clubs suing each other?

Technically, nobody will sue anyone. That’s sort of the purpose of the PL rules keeping it all in-house.

We’ll claim for compensation through the premier league and they’ll decide no (probably). No lawyers or court rooms involved.

The problem is, if you believe there should be financial rules that promote a level(ish) playing field and encourage clubs to operate sustainably, the prospect for such compensation claims will exist.

I reckon we have a case. I think causation might be tough to prove but no doubt the club will have had our data people all over this gathering data on the impacts that their signings had on the season & points tally. We’ll be well prepared. Proving loss will be easy but massively complicated if we were to stay up this year at Everton’s expense given a 10 pt deduction.

But as discussed I think the PL have handled it shockingly and Everton do have some mitigations in the sense they appear to have tried to reign in their behaviour/engage with the PL about it.

In my mind the best approach would be for everyone to get together and sort it out without claims and it all being public. Everton presumably don’t want protracted uncertainty that could disrupt their takeover, the PL presumably don’t want a compo claim to send one of their clubs in to admin, we presumably want some form of recompense but today at least are uncertain if the commission would rule in our favour. All reeks to me of a very sensible time to be in settlement negotiations while all parties have something to lose by not coming to the table.

[CrosspoolClarets]

We’ll claim for compensation through the premier league and they’ll decide no (probably). No lawyers or court rooms involved

Not through the Premier League, through an Independent Commission. One comprising of a judge, KC and accountant.

I assume we would continue to have the leading KC Nick De Marko representing us. The one who has done podcasts and books. He tweeted about it 2 days ago but couldn’t be drawn on the details.

(as an aside, I find it amusing what our Americans think about “us” being used in this context, with “us” not having a financial stake but acting like we do - we view the club as part of our body and soul, whereas US sport is very different and the owners in those sports probably don’t feel a need to keep fans in the loop on this kind of thing. Or to recognise their emotional stake)

[Chester Perry]

...(as an aside, I find it amusing what our Americans think about “us” being used in this context, with “us” not having a financial stake but acting like we do - we view the club as part of our body and soul, whereas US sport is very different and the owners in those sports probably don’t feel a need to keep fans in the loop on this kind of thing. Or to recognise their emotional stake)

I understand where you are coming from, however, there are still over 1,200 independent shareholders in the club (even NewClaret appears on the verge of becoming one) that demonstrates some have the kind of stake that the 'Americans can understand a little more

[ClaretPete001]

Technically, nobody will sue anyone. That’s sort of the purpose of the PL rules keeping it all in-house.

We’ll claim for compensation through the premier league and they’ll decide no (probably). No lawyers or court rooms involved.

The problem is, if you believe there should be financial rules that promote a level(ish) playing field and encourage clubs to operate sustainably, the prospect for such compensation claims will exist.

I reckon we have a case. I think causation might be tough to prove but no doubt the club will have had our data people all over this gathering data on the impacts that their signings had on the season & points tally. We’ll be well prepared. Proving loss will be easy but massively complicated if we were to stay up this year at Everton’s expense given a 10 pt deduction.

But as discussed I think the PL have handled it shockingly and Everton do have some mitigations in the sense they appear to have tried to reign in their behaviour/engage with the PL about it.

In my mind the best approach would be for everyone to get together and sort it out without claims and it all being public. Everton presumably don’t want protracted uncertainty that could disrupt their takeover, the PL presumably don’t want a compo claim to send one of their clubs in to admin, we presumably want some form of recompense but today at least are uncertain if the commission would rule in our favour. All reeks to me of a very sensible time to be in settlement negotiations while all parties have something to lose by not coming to the table.

I don't disagree with any of this.... and you make loads of good points.

However, had Moshiri sold the club prior to last week he would have walked away with a significant profit and would have been left completely unscathed by this issue.

The point of the PLs rules is to protect community assets and the interests of the fans.

Everton fans will be significantly aggrieved that 6 years after Moshiri's only real summer of intent Everton are facing a 10 point deduction and heavy compensation claims after watching their club flirt with relegation for 2 or 3 seasons.

Just as we will if it proves to be that ALK have over reached themselves and have committed 3 years broadcast revenue and built up huge debts spending on a team that is nowhere near good enough to play in the PL.

Of course, I am not suggesting the team is nowhere near good enough or that ALK have gambled way into the future I don't think anyone on here knows one way or t'other...

My overriding feeling is there but for the grace of God, regardless, of arguments of how rational that sentiment is.... perhaps that is why the treatment of Everton bothers me a little.

[NewClaret]

Not through the Premier League, through an Independent Commission. One comprising of a judge, KC and accountant.

I assume we would continue to have the leading KC Nick De Marko representing us. The one who has done podcasts and books. He tweeted about it 2 days ago but couldn’t be drawn on the details.

(as an aside, I find it amusing what our Americans think about “us” being used in this context, with “us” not having a financial stake but acting like we do - we view the club as part of our body and soul, whereas US sport is very different and the owners in those sports probably don’t feel a need to keep fans in the loop on this kind of thing. Or to recognise their emotional stake)

Correct.

I noted that when reading it back, but it was too late to edit. Assuming they are truly independent of course, which I’m a little sceptical about but hey, there remains a risk to the PL that the commission rules in our favour and awards compensation. In which case the floodgates open in future trials. So I think now would be a good time to talk and ideally reach a compromise agreement aided by the PL. A bit like the Tevez affair.

[Wokingclaret]

Blimey they are all whinging about the 10 points, even the MP is bringing it up in Westminster. Surely is will get reduced now, not that it matters to us

[Commy]

Won't it just be us and Leicester that have a claim? Leeds and Southampton would have gone down anyway and Nottingham Forest are still in the Premier.

[Commy]

Spurs were docked 12 points, banned from playing in the FA Cup and fined £600,00 in 1984 for irregular payments. They had the points deduction and FA Cup ban wiped off after 2 appeals but were fined more. It will probably be stricter now though with all the laws brought in.

https://hotspurhq.com/2013/12/09/totten ... ime-spurs/

[Newcastleclaret93]

Erm, they did.

They did, but not in the season that affected us? That’s the point isn’t it?

That’s why we are sueing them because the premier league didn’t deduct points that season and we were relegated.

[Newcastleclaret93]

And after a hiatus, a brief one admittedly, of a few days here he is yet again looking to provoke posters into further anti-Burnley arguments with the sole aim of ..... well, you tell me. Perhaps because he can.

Grow up silky, my comment was a fair one. I don’t understand the case we have for suing Everton.

On the same basis why arnt we suing Man City and Chelsea?

[RVclaret]

Grow up silky, my comment was a fair one. I don’t understand the case we have for suing Everton.

On the same basis why arnt we suing Man City and Chelsea?

Our case is similar to why Sheffield United sued West Ham - they broke rules at their expense of staying in the league. The court agreed and Sheffield United received £20m compensation.

On the second question, City and Chelsea have not yet been found guilty of anything, the latter hasn’t even been charged with anything?

[GodIsADeeJay81]

Grow up silky, my comment was a fair one. I don’t understand the case we have for suing Everton.

On the same basis why arnt we suing Man City and Chelsea?

Until city and Chelsea have been found guilty, then nobody can sue them

[Stalbansclaret]

And even then it’s unlikely we’d be able to say that either City or Chelsea would have been relegated instead of us if justice had been done at the time.

[NewClaret]

They did, but not in the season that affected us? That’s the point isn’t it?

That’s why we are sueing them because the premier league didn’t deduct points that season and we were relegated.

I would imagine that is one of our legal arguments. But according to a legal perspective in those tweets (baring in mind they were not from a sports lawyer and also a toffee), that’s probably not a sound argument. But I’ll be surprised if we don’t make it.

Our argument will be more that their failure to adhere to the rules, by not reigning in transfer spending, caused our relegation. We will be analysing the players they signed in the period where they were in breach and arguing they were instrumental in securing more than 4 points than us, I assume. Therefore, had they opted to a uphold a more reserved transfer policy in order to remain in PSR (like us), they’d have been relegated and we would not have suffered loss.

[Silkyskills1]

Grow up silky, my comment was a fair one. I don’t understand the case we have for suing Everton.

On the same basis why arnt we suing Man City and Chelsea?

Anything is deemed as 'fair' today or do you not find time to watch the news or listen to it.
Might be wrong but neither City nor Chelsea 'pipped us' to that last relegation slot.
Litigation isn't my strong point but I would hazard a guess that those involved have looked at it and thoroughly discussed it before deciding to take some action. Still trying to grow up but my wife tells me I have a long way to go and might not achieve it before the grim reaper pays me a visit. Oh well.

[MrTopTier]

Just been announced that same commission that made the 10 point deduction, will sit and look at possible compensation claims from the other clubs involved.

[GodIsADeeJay81]

Just been announced that same commission that made the 10 point deduction, will sit and look at possible compensation claims from the other clubs involved.

Oooo that’s going to be interesting
They’ve already got all the facts and have read it all

[Chester Perry]

Just been announced that same commission that made the 10 point deduction, will sit and look at possible compensation claims from the other clubs involved.

The separate statement on Friday effectively said as much

the key question is who will preside over the appeal from Everton

[Westleigh]

If we win our compensation claim,Everton go into administration and the PL dock them another 10 points I still think they’ll finish above us.

[Paul Waine]

Panel who punished Everton will decide on rivals’ compensation claims
Burnley and Leicester City, who finished 18th in the Premier League in the past two seasons respectively, would appear to have the strongest case for damages

Martyn Ziegler, Chief Sports Reporter Tuesday November 21 2023, 3.00pm, The Times

The same independent commission that imposed a ten-point deduction on Everton will also decide if other clubs should receive tens of millions of pounds in compensation for financial damages connected to the case.

Five clubs — Burnley, Leicester City, Leeds United, Southampton and Nottingham Forest — have been part of a legal action connected to the Everton case. They have 28 days from receiving the ruling on the Goodison Park club, which came last Friday, to pursue a claim.

The Premier League has confirmed that the independent regulatory commission that ruled on Everton’s case will also decide on any compensation claims. The commission was headed by David Phillips KC, Judge Alan Greenwood and Nick Igoe, the former financial director at West Ham United.

In his ruling which blocked the five clubs being parties to the Everton case, Phillips said: “I am satisfied that the applicant clubs have potential claims for compensation.”

Everton have said they will appeal against the ten-point deduction and any compensation claim will have to take the appeal decision into account. An appeal would be heard before the end of the season.

Everton insiders have questioned how more than one club could receive compensation, considering that at the most only one team would have been relegated instead of Everton.

Burnley and Leicester would appear to have the strongest claim to damages. Burnley were relegated in the 2021-22 season, the campaign in which Everton were judged to have breached the Premier League’s profit and sustainability rules in terms of financial losses. Had the ten-point deduction been applied that season, Burnley would have survived and Everton would have been relegated. Burnley were promoted back to the Premier League at the first attempt but the financial cost to them was still about £50 million.

Everton were charged in March, but the five clubs unsuccessfully appealed for the commission to deal with the case before the end of last season. Leicester were relegated in 2022-23 — finishing 18th, a place and two points below Everton — and would also have lost about £50 million should they win promotion at the first attempt.

Had Everton’s points deduction been applied last season, it would not have prevented Leeds from being relegated but the club would have finished one place higher in the Premier League table, meaning an extra £2.2million in income.

There appear to be no grounds for Southampton, who finished bottom, or Forest, who stayed up in 16th, to claim compensation, as the points deduction would have made no difference to their league position in either season.

Phillips’s ruling added: “Those claims and their validity depend on whether the complaint is upheld. They depend on factual circumstances concerning the causation of any loss and they depend on other factual issues.

“If the complaint is upheld, the commission may wish to award compensation to one or more of the applicant clubs. If the complaint is upheld, the Premier League must provide a copy of the decision to the applicant clubs forthwith. Within 28 days of receipt of a copy of the decision, each applicant club must inform the commission whether it wishes to pursue a claim for . . . compensation.”

The compensation rules have been brought into the Premier League since Sheffield United agreed a £20 million out-of-court settlement with West Ham — during Igoe’s time at the club — after the London club had breached third-party ownership rules with the Argentina striker, Carlos Tevez.

[TheFamilyCat]

Screenshot_20231122_150249_Facebook.jpg (310.03 KiB) Viewed 2410 times

50% off replica kits, 71% off their points.

[Westleigh]

Lots of whinging on The Everton forum,they’re going all out to upset the Prem League and Sky ,especially as Sky are talking about playing fake crowd noise to blank out the protests,poor little scousers being punished and they think all the clubs in the country are behind them and it’s a certainty that the points deduction will be quashed,after watching the the likes of Richarlison & Gordon diving every 5 mins the last time they were on the Turf I hope they go in to Admin and get relegated.

[bfcjg]

If the FA Premier league or whoever had the authority had of banned Richarlison straight away for throwing the flare they'd have been relegated, but the powers that be waited until they were safe, Scousers expect everyone and everything to bow to their will, they've been pondered to long enough.

[NewClaret]

If the FA Premier league or whoever had the authority had of banned Richarlison straight away for throwing the flare they'd have been relegated, but the powers that be waited until they were safe, Scousers expect everyone and everything to bow to their will, they've been pondered to long enough.

That should have an independent commission investigate it too.

I think we were far too quiet on that at the time & should’ve been shouting to the high heavens about that.

[AGENT_CLARET]

Got a feeling they'll win an appeal and have the 10 point docking reduced to 5 points

[Nori1958]

Got a feeling they'll win an appeal and have the 10 point docking reduced to 5 points

Depends what they appeal about... If its just the punishment I agree with you
If its an appeal against the findings, and they win, there won't be any punishment

[NewClaret]

Depends what they appeal about... If its just the punishment I agree with you
If its an appeal against the findings, and they win, there won't be any punishment

They’ll likely appeal on both the verdict and the sanction for good measure. They’d be stupid not to.

Nobody should kid themselves that appeals are easy to win though.

On the verdict they’ll have to prove that an error has been made in implementing the rules, or there were flaws in the process followed to reach that verdict. These will typically be technical arguments. That’s where the written reasons are so important. It won’t be a re-hearing of the whole case, rather what the original commission got wrong. They’ll have covered their backsides, I imagine.

On the sanction they’ll have to prove why it’s unjust. There’s lots of examples of similar points penalties for such indiscretions so they’ll have to explain why theirs is unduly harsh based on precedents. Saying it’s their opinion it’s harsh will not be sufficient. Worth remembering here that the appeal will be considering how the punishment fits in to league rules, which I understand points deductions are unlimited and the league itself recommended a 12 point deduction. I think the commission went lower precisely so they could say Everton’s counter arguments had been factored in to the decision.

[Jakubclaret]

If Simon Jordan knew half as much as he thinks he does he might not have had to get out of Crystal Palace after losing all his money trying to run a football club

That's not the best way of looking at things, shall we not listen to a reformed ex heroin user because they once was addicted to heroin talking about the dangers of heroin, of course not it's even more reason to listen to people who have lived the experience & made mistakes along the way, just because it doesn't align with your opinion doesn't invalidate somebody else's especially somebody who is more knowledgeable about a certain subject than yourself.

[claptrappers_union]

Simon Jordan tailors his argument to suit the agenda of the Talk Sport topic of that week.

[claretonthecoast1882]

That's not the best way of looking at things, shall we not listen to a reformed ex heroin user because they once was addicted to heroin talking about the dangers of heroin, of course not it's even more reason to listen to people who have lived the experience & made mistakes along the way, just because it doesn't align with your opinion doesn't invalidate somebody else's especially somebody who is more knowledgeable about a certain subject than yourself.

I understand and accept that he is your go to source for information, I am happy enough to view him as someone who is a clown who should be ignored. There is a reason he is now working for the radio version of the Sun.

Does he still boast how he took Iain Dowie to court ? One of the few things he won in his time in football. There is tough someone out there for everyone so no surprise that someone with the views you hold in life about people different from you gets all starry eyed at him.

[Westleigh]

Simon Jordan tailors his argument to suit the agenda of the Talk Sport topic of that week.

The trouble is with nearly all the pundits ,and so called experts on these types of programmes is that someone has to play devils advocate or the show doesn’t work.

[claptrappers_union]

So with that in mind, how can you take the opinion of these pundits and experts seriously?

I listen to TalkSport purely for entertainment as I gain very little insight. Most of them don’t know what they are talking about anyway.

No self-respecting journalist, pundit or professional would step into their studios to offer an opinion because they would have to change it in the next show anyway.

[Jakubclaret]

I understand and accept that he is your go to source for information, I am happy enough to view him as someone who is a clown who should be ignored. There is a reason he is now working for the radio version of the Sun.

Does he still boast how he took Iain Dowie to court ? One of the few things he won in his time in football. There is tough someone out there for everyone so no surprise that someone with the views you hold in life about people different from you gets all starry eyed at him.

It's a strange world out there when you can just randomly bypass the notion of people learning from their mistakes & becoming wiser through experience or does it only apply to selective people who happen to hold a different opinion than yourself.

[Nori1958]

So with that in mind, how can you take the opinion of these pundits and experts seriously?

I listen to TalkSport purely for entertainment as I gain very little insight. Most of them don’t know what they are talking about anyway.

No self-respecting journalist, pundit or professional would step into their studios to offer an opinion because they would have to change it in the next show anyway.

There are very few actual trained journalists working for them. Too many ex footballers getting presenting jobs ahead of people who have been trained and come up the hard way via local radio etc.

[claretonthecoast1882]

It's a strange world out there when you can just randomly bypass the notion of people learning from their mistakes & becoming wiser through experience or does it only apply to selective people who happen to hold a different opinion than yourself.

Fully agree people should learn by their mistakes but when they keep making mistakes and don't learn you begin to think they are beyond help, who knows one day all people will find racism wrong as well. I mean imagine telling people you are refusing to watch the team you support simply because those players who are playing for your team are promoting equality.

You claimed that you didn't know if Boris was a liar, have you learnt from that mistake yet ?