Covid Enquiry

[brexit]

I think you may have to stick another 0 on the £10 mill the amount the legal teams are charging.

Unbelievable

[MalaysiaMo]

According to OECD data Sweden's excess mortality over the period of COVID was +3.5%. UK's was +11.7%.

Norway's was +1.2%. Denmark's was 4.3%. Finland's was 5.3%. Iceland's was 3.3%.

Based on these data, Sweden's excess mortality was 3rd in Europe.

NewZealand - with one of the world's toughest lockdowns - was 3.1%. Australia also had a tough lockdown - 3.7% excess mortality.

Also worth pointing out that despite not locking down to the extent of many OECD countries Sweden's post-COVID economic recovery has lagged many countries that locked down much more severely, including Norway.

I suspect that rather than whether a country locked down or not these data reveal differences in the resilience of health services and economies and the level of health among the general population between impacted countries.

[Rowls]

According to OECD data Sweden's excess mortality over the period of COVID was +3.5%. UK's was +11.7%.

Norway's was +1.2%. Denmark's was 4.3%. Finland's was 5.3%. Iceland's was 3.3%.

Based on these data, Sweden's excess mortality was 3rd in Europe.

NewZealand - with one of the world's toughest lockdowns - was 3.1%. Australia also had a tough lockdown - 3.7% excess mortality.

Also worth pointing out that despite not locking down to the extent of many OECD countries Sweden's post-COVID economic recovery has lagged many countries that locked down much more severely, including Norway.

I suspect that rather than whether a country locked down or not these data reveal differences in the resilience of health services and economies and the level of health among the general population between impacted countries.

Good post.

A sensible look at things shows that at best, no correlation between lockdown and COVID rates. Figures indicate that infection rates had peaked before the lockdowns were imposed.

We’ve damaged ourselves in a multitude of ways for little to nothing in gain.

[FCBurnley]

The only questions that need answering is where was Covid developed and why and by who ?

[fidelcastro]

The only questions that need answering is where was Covid developed and why and by who ?

Already been answered by Woodley claret further up the thread.

It just got out of hand apparently

[Colburn_Claret]

I really do not get this facination with Sweden. Why not compare with other Scandinavian countries - all of which did lock down and all of which had far lower per capita rates of COVID mortality than Sweden - e.g Norway = 242 deaths per million population, Denmark = 558 deaths per million, Finland = 310 deaths per million, Sweden = 1406 deaths per million ....

Compare UK's COVID mortality rate - 2636 deaths per million - with the OECD average of 1634 deaths per million, and something was clearly amiss in the UK's response to COVID. Why was our rate so much higher than that of France (1836 deaths per million) and Germany (1342 deaths per million)? It was even higher than Italy's (2319 deaths per million) , despite the UK having about 2 weeks of additional time to prepare ....

At the same time, the UK's economy was hit harder than many OECD countries. Compare with Ireland - 1186 deaths per million and 20% increase in GDP since COVID.

That question "why?" is surely what the current enquiry is about - or should be. It has to be partly due to incompetence and prolonged underfunding of essential services.

When you compare our population to the rest of Europe, and the land size of the country, it should be fairly obvious that we are the most densely populated country in Europe. That has to have a huge impact on trying to avoid the spread of a disease like Covid.
Comparisons are all well and good, and should be part of the enquiry, but too many people made their minds up long before this enquiry started, and they just look for any straw to support their, let's blame the government agenda.
As long as people are fixated on blame any enquiry is pointless. It isn't about what we did wrong, it should be about what we can do better.

[evensteadiereddie]

Surely you need to look at what we did wrong before you can consider how to put it right next time.
I'm sorry it's not good enough for you and other government supporters to repeat the let's not apportion blame, let's move on agenda.
Sure it's uncomfortable for those shown to be incompetent, self serving or downright corrupt but I'm afraid those people and their contributions need to be analysed - as well as the stuff they did well, of course.
To do otherwise would be simply a cover up and there are too many people's deaths and a too severe economic devastation for that to be allowed to happen.

[Rileybobs]

You would have thought being an island and er, having taken back control, we should have performed far better.

Don't underestimate the amount of Covid which came over on small boats.

[Colburn_Claret]

Surely you need to look at what we did wrong before you can consider how to put it right next time.
I'm sorry it's not good enough for you and other government supporters to repeat the let's not apportion blame, let's move on agenda.
Sure it's uncomfortable for those shown to be incompetent, self serving or downright corrupt but I'm afraid those people and their contributions need to be analysed - as well as the stuff they did well, of course.
To do otherwise would be simply a cover up and there are too many people's deaths and a too severe economic devastation for that to be allowed to happen.

Nobody is arguing that mistakes weren't made. What the rational people are saying is that in a never before encountered pandemic, mistakes were inevitable, and therefore looking to lay blame at anyone's door is pointless, and purely politically motivated.

[Casper2]

According to OECD data Sweden's excess mortality over the period of COVID was +3.5%. UK's was +11.7%.

Norway's was +1.2%. Denmark's was 4.3%. Finland's was 5.3%. Iceland's was 3.3%.

Based on these data, Sweden's excess mortality was 3rd in Europe.

NewZealand - with one of the world's toughest lockdowns - was 3.1%. Australia also had a tough lockdown - 3.7% excess mortality.

Also worth pointing out that despite not locking down to the extent of many OECD countries Sweden's post-COVID economic recovery has lagged many countries that locked down much more severely, including Norway.

I suspect that rather than whether a country locked down or not these data reveal differences in the resilience of health services and economies and the level of health among the general population between impacted countries.

The Sweden comparison is irrelevant as pointed out by another poster , the irrelevant comparison is only used by people who don’t believe Covid was the cause of a pandemic or those totally against lockdowns.

[dsr]

The Sweden comparison is irrelevant as pointed out by another poster , the irrelevant comparison is only used by people who don’t believe Covid was the cause of a pandemic or those totally against lockdowns.

The Swedish comparison is hugely relevant. When you're trying to work out whether what we did was right or wrong, looking at the results of people who did it differently is vital - more vital than looking at those who did basically the same as us, IMO.

[Casper2]

Nobody is arguing that mistakes weren't made. What the rational people are saying is that in a never before encountered pandemic, mistakes were inevitable, and therefore looking to lay blame at anyone's door is pointless, and purely politically motivated.

If only the government had held a simulation of a pandemic in 2016 and implemented the recommendations.
It doesn’t help we were led by a grifting chancer either .

[Casper2]

The Swedish comparison is hugely relevant. When you're trying to work out whether what we did was right or wrong, looking at the results of people who did it differently is vital - more vital than looking at those who did basically the same as us, IMO.

As pointed out the density of populations make it irrelevant

[evensteadiereddie]

Nobody is arguing that mistakes weren't made. What the rational people are saying is that in a never before encountered pandemic, mistakes were inevitable, and therefore looking to lay blame at anyone's door is pointless, and purely politically motivated.

Mistakes were made, mistakes that cost thousands of lives, particularly with the callous/inept dealing of the care home issue.
Those in power were in a position of responsibility to do their best.
They were found wanting and are now desperately, having feathered their nests during Covid, trying to salvage the tattered remnants of their reputations.
These people are more than happy to boast about their achievements, imaginary or otherwise, but when it comes to accepting criticism it suddenly becomes "political".

[dsr]

As pointed out the density of populations make it irrelevant

The number of people in cities is the more useful stat than the overall population density.

England has a population density twice that of the UK, but the covid death rates were very similar. All that empty space in Scotland made very little difference, in the same way as all the empty space in Sweden made little difference.

[Foshiznik]

Yes mistakes should be expected to be made when there is an unprecedented world event. Similar happened in the 2008 financial crisis. However, that doesn't make anyone who made the decisions during this time should be immune to all criticism. Alot of decisions were politically motivated going by some of the findings and lack of co-operation the inquiry has already uncovered. Accountability should be a consideration, whilst lessons learned for future world events should be the primary function.

[FCBurnley]

Already been answered by Woodley claret further up the thread.

It just got out of hand apparently

Ah got it. But why was it created and released ?

[Colburn_Claret]

The Swedish comparison is hugely relevant. When you're trying to work out whether what we did was right or wrong, looking at the results of people who did it differently is vital - more vital than looking at those who did basically the same as us, IMO.

Sweden is twice as big as the UK.
UK population is 7 times greater than Swedens.
By my simple maths that makes us 14 times more densely populated.

They can't be compared. In an airborne virus avoiding human contact has to help, it has to be far easier to isolate there than here.

[RicardoMontalban]

Sweden is twice as big as the UK.
UK population is 7 times greater than Swedens.
By my simple maths that makes us 14 times more densely populated.

They can't be compared. In an airborne virus avoiding human contact has to help, it has to be far easier to isolate there than here.

I think that might be a bit simplistic to say Sweden’s bigger therefore people can avoid each other more easily.

The population density for each country may be vastly different 274.9 vs 23.4 per km2, but that’s not evenly distributed across each country. Indeed in Sweden there are more densely populated areas around the main cities and the majority of the population is located in the southern half of the country. But there are obviously other differences between the two places as well, standard of living, relative poverty, state support etc. that will have contributed.

[IanMcL]

Who did the ignoring?

The civil service were the ones going through it all and sorting it out
The MP’s weren’t because that would require them to do actual work and that’s not going to happen

The civil service is there for a reason

This inquiry should investigate and highlight the whole process that was used for acquiring PPE

It should also be tasked with seeing why the Covid business loans were being given to brand new businesses, that had zero financial transactions but needed tens of thousands of ££ to apparently help them get through Covid

Sadly it appears to be a witch hunt

The reports at the time was that these manufacturers applied stating they are ready and able, however, at that time, the Gov ministers invoked 'Emergency' and immediately threw in all their own names, which received orders, without any rests or evidence. No normal processes followed.

[evensteadiereddie]

Not a witch hunt but a reasonable and justified exploration of how and why vast sums of money were squandered with some of that money ending up in the bank accounts of people who, quite frankly, should be facing fraud charges.
It won't ever happen of course.

[Nori1958]

The reports at the time was that these manufacturers applied stating they are ready and able, however, at that time, the Gov ministers invoked 'Emergency' and immediately threw in all their own names, which received orders, without any rests or evidence. No normal processes followed.

I suppose they could have done all the tests, gathered the evidence, followed the normal processes, then decided... Its not like we were in a rush or anything

[RMutt]

I suppose they could have done all the tests, gathered the evidence, followed the normal processes, then decided... Its not like we were in a rush or anything

You are missing the point. There were established companies that already supplied the NHS ready and able to supply PPE. And in some cases at cheaper cost. These companies were ignored in favour of fashion, start up, and all sorts of other businesses.

[RMutt]

And I forgot to mention. Obviously, also connected to the Tory party.

[dsr]

You are missing the point. There were established companies that already supplied the NHS ready and able to supply PPE. And in some cases at cheaper cost. These companies were ignored in favour of fashion, start up, and all sorts of other businesses.

And if that is all true, there will be a vast bloodletting of the ministers and civil servants who conspired to deliberately reduce the amount of PPE available. Why do you think that very senior civil servants were doing this?

[RMutt]

And if that is all true, there will be a vast bloodletting of the ministers and civil servants who conspired to deliberately reduce the amount of PPE available. Why do you think that very senior civil servants were doing this?

I can only imagine civil servants were directed to. If so, that will be their defence.
Government ministers? Well who knows?
The Good Law Project are bringing a case against the government I believe.

[Rowls]

The Good Law Project are bringing a case against the government I believe.

We need some levity in the middle of this giant waste of tax payers money so I for one welcome this latest intervention from the Good Law Project. Long may they continue to entertain us with their antics.

[GodIsADeeJay81]

I can only imagine civil servants were directed to. If so, that will be their defence.
Government ministers? Well who knows?
The Good Law Project are bringing a case against the government I believe.

The good law project?
Isn’t that headed by the kimono wearing fox beater?

They’ll lose then, because that’s what they usually do

[claretonthecoast1882]

I would also like to see them go after the arseholes who bogusly claimed furlough money as well as the criminals who obtained bounce back loans up to 50k a time and never paid a penny back.