According to Prime

[brexit]

Our nickname is the Tykes mixing us up with the Yorkshire team again.

[elwaclaret]

The first time this happened was in the first couple of seasons in the league… it is a mistake that has been regularly repeated for well over 100 years. Many football history books say Burnley was one of the early Methodist Association Football Clubs… that was Barnsley. Burnley was the brainchild of Albert Mill, they started a football club in the new weavers shed as they moved from wool production to cotton to encourage workers… a good few years before becoming associated with the cricket club at Turf Moor.

[elwaclaret]

* May have been Albion Mill - ( I did the origins of league football as part of Masters research, but have done several dissertations since).

[elwaclaret]

* May have been Albion Mill - ( I did the origins of league football as part of Masters research, but have done several dissertations since).

Edit.. Been thinking about it and it was Albion Mill, mixing it up Albert Mill in Rossendale that was part of the Rossendale Methodist research regarding early Methodism.

[Winstonswhite]

The first time this happened was in the first couple of seasons in the league… it is a mistake that has been regularly repeated for well over 100 years. Many football history books say Burnley was one of the early Methodist Association Football Clubs… that was Barnsley. Burnley was the brainchild of Albert Mill, they started a football club in the new weavers shed as they moved from wool production to cotton to encourage workers… a good few years before becoming associated with the cricket club at Turf Moor.

I didn’t know that - I always thought we were a rugby club and changed to football.

[ClaretTony]

I didn’t know that - I always thought we were a rugby club and changed to football.

You are right, we were a rugby club and changed code in May 1882 at the Bull in town.

[FigSlice]

Not clear from various mid to late nineteenth century newspaper articles about the numerous teams playing “football” in the town were playing rugby football or association football. Games were played at Calder Vale Rugby Club as well as other locations. Burnley Cricket Club put together a team to play at a piece of land they owned called Turf Moor and had set aside specifically, from early December 1880.

[elwaclaret]

I didn’t know that - I always thought we were a rugby club and changed to football.

No such thing as ‘rugby’ at the time. The game they played was ‘football’, the Lancashire FA was the second FA and adopted ‘London Association Rules’ (soccer) early. The Manchester association played ‘shefield’ rules (Oldest football club myth). Sheffield played a game that became Rugby League, why the Manchester clubs joined the Lancashire FA.

Rugby Union (amateur) was organised about five years after the Football League.

[elwaclaret]

You are right, we were a rugby club and changed code in May 1882 at the Bull in town.

There was no rugby association… the rugby Union was formed after the Football League, the Rugby League quite a while after, they adopted Sheffield and Manchester FA rules…. Football rules, London Association (Eton game) was adopted at the Bull… Taunton FC and Blackburn Rovers and Olympic were already playing London Association Rules.

That is why Sheffield can claim to be the oldest football club, despite the game being closer to a Rugby League game.

[ClaretTony]

There was no rugby association… the rugby Union was formed after the Football League, the Rugby League quite a while after, they adopted Sheffield and Manchester FA rules…. Football rules, London Association (Eton game) was adopted at the Bull… Taunton FC and Blackburn Rovers and Olympic were already playing London Association Rules.

Burnley played rugby until May 1882 when a meeting at the Bull on Manchester Road opted to change code to association football.

[elwaclaret]

Burnley played rugby until May 1882 when a meeting at the Bull on Manchester Road opted to change code to association football.

Sorry to be pedantic Tony, it may now be considered ‘rugby’ but that was not a term used at the time. Burnley moved from ‘football’ to London Association football. I did a Master’s dissertation on the very subject.

[ClaretTony]

Sorry to be pedantic Tony, it may now be considered ‘rugby’ but that was not a term used at the time. Burnley moved from ‘football’ to London Association football. I did a Master’s dissertation on the very subject.

And you are re-writing the club’s history.

The official line is Burnley Rovers was a rugby club which changed code to association football and dropped the word Rovers.

[CoolClaret]

Must have been a typo - think they meant, “The Twinks”

[elwaclaret]

And you are re-writing the club’s history.

The official line is Burnley Rovers was a rugby club which changed code to association football and dropped the word Rovers.

I am not re- writing anything, I have used primary sources and academic research to research the origins of the football league… my paper has been marked at four different Universities. I suspect they used the word ‘rugby’ to explain the adoption of the London Association code over the several others being played around the country. Games even took place playing half the home team’s code and half the away teams… all were football; and like I have mentioned the Manchester FA adopted Atherton (if memory serves, but it began with A) which later became Rugby League, and was very similar to the Sheffield Football Club Rules… and is why the Manchester clubs joined the Lancashire Football Association, instead (the second such association, after London to adopt London Association Rules.)

Arsenal had to get north of the river to be be accepted in the London FA, which was North of the River only.

The London FA’s competition was the FA cup, as you know.

(Edited for clarity)

[elwaclaret]

And you are re-writing the club’s history.

The official line is Burnley Rovers was a rugby club which changed code to association football and dropped the word Rovers.

Sorry to jump on this post again CT, but just to add the early history of the club included three or four stops around the town, of which Turf Moor Race Track.. (the cricket club rented from the Racetrack) at the time (thanks to Captain Scarlet of the heavy brigade in crimea if memory serves) became one of the circuit ( I have them listed in my research, I think Worsthorne was a regular venue for a while. Meeting used to be held in the pub that used to be across the road from Albion Mill (I have the name). It took some bloody finding (and that’s with the access all areas you get as a Master’s student) so it may be new research. Not being a smart arse, but I thought it might be of interest. All before the first official stop at Burnley Cricket Club’s Turf Moor. Sadly, the detail around the early meetings is very sketchy so far as I can find and usually what does exist Burnley, Blackburn Olympic, Accrington FC, Preston NE and Bolton Wanders were in one camp and Blackburn (Grammar School) Rovers and Taunton were in the other, on most things.

The minutes of those meetings (there were several) are the missing link in my research, and I will be revisiting it, hopefully sooner rather than later.

[elwaclaret]

…. And of course when I say Burnley, I am referring to the club that became Burnley, through various moves prior to being directly connected to the Cricket Club… Albion Mill’s weavers shed team.

[FigSlice]

Browsing the British Newspaper Archive, Padiham played Calder Vale in early December or late November 1880 at the latter’s ground. Association Football rules for a change, a first for Calder Vale, but possibly not Padiham. Match report 4 December 1880. Lots of ads for shops selling ”footballs” from 1860s onwards but no indication of shape.

[Winstonswhite]

There was no rugby association… the rugby Union was formed after the Football League, the Rugby League quite a while after, they adopted Sheffield and Manchester FA rules…. Football rules, London Association (Eton game) was adopted at the Bull… Taunton FC and Blackburn Rovers and Olympic were already playing London Association Rules.

That is why Sheffield can claim to be the oldest football club, despite the game being closer to a Rugby League game.

The rugby union was founded in 1871 quite a bit before the football league, which was in 1888.

[claptrappers_union]

You are right, we were a rugby club and changed code in May 1882 at the Bull in town.

It irks me that we have a flowery nickname as the Clarets when we could be The Bulls

[elwaclaret]

The rugby union was founded in 1871 quite a bit before the football league, which was in 1888.

The rugby Union was a locally based game, based on the Rugby rule set of football rules in the area of Rugby, hence it is still called ‘Rugby’ Football…. Same as the ‘Sheffield Rules football’ same as various rules, ‘Eton Rules Football’for example, and Bloomsbury. The game was localised as I have already alluded to. All were FOOTBALL CLUBS… all codes played each other.
Burnley. As I have said the Lancashire FA chose the London FA code… the rules of the Association that ran the FA Cup. Up to 1882 The club that became Burnley played Sheffield/Manchester Rules FOOTBALL, hence Burnley could finally start to apply to play in the FA Cup long after Preston, Blackburn, Darwen etc. After 1882. Sheffield Rules was a game that developed into the Rugby League. As you say the league started in 1888… as a result of a series of meetings of chairman of the Lancashire FA (meetings were held in Preston, Darwen, Bolton (2 or three)… to create the league (the minute books for which are the missing link for all researchers).

This is were Burnley Football Clubs official history begins…. But the club was playing around Burnley several years before 1882 at various venues around Burnley… my paper ends in 1890 or thereabouts.

As a MRes qualified historian my interest lies in the detail ‘why’ did East Lancs become the centre of Early Methodism… how did the Lancashire FA develop… how did Burnley Football Club become Burnley Football Club, and what went on in those meetings that culminated at the Bull and the League meetings on the run up to 1888 when Accrington FC backed Burnley in their push for professionalism and a league.

Burnley hid their Scottish pro’s in Albion Mill and Massey’s brewery… why Blackburn Rovers in turn got Blackburn Olympic, Darwin, Accrington FC and Burnley banned from the FA Cup… as a toffs grammar school they wanted the Lancashire FA to remain a club for gentlemen… the rest of Lancashire disagreed (with the exception of Taunton FC, who were one of the early movers in the Lancashire FA).

(Re-edited for clarity)

[Buxtonclaret]

Fascinating thread, this.

[elwaclaret]

Interestingly, despite being visibly opposed to professionalism, Rovers were up to the same games, hiding players at India Mill and the paint works that became Crown. It was Rovers that killed off the bigger club Darwin by offering wages Darwen could not match and taking over their entire first team. Blackburn Olympic were the working class team, playing at the Big Window, then in the centre of Blackburn town centre. The first football riot involved Olympic and Rovers pre-league… as the workers got the chance to take out their resentment on their bosses… and why Rovers went to Darwin, out of the way of the rough crowd.

[thehistorylecturer58]

You are right, we were a rugby club and changed code in May 1882 at the Bull in town.

In academia we have a term for this .. we call it the invention of tradition . A surprisingly common barrier to learning that academic historians come up against on an all too regular basis.

[South West Claret.]

You are right, we were a rugby club and changed code in May 1882 at the Bull in town.

A pity they didn’t mention that to Colin Blant in the 60s

[DingleDangle]

Very interesting elwaclaret.

Just a couple of things though.

For Taunton FC, are you meaning Turton FC, as Taunton is down in Somerset? Turton FC seemed to be quite prominent back then.

Also, it probably seems like Burnley Rovers had adopted the Sheffield rules, which you state, later became Rugby League, before changing codes in 1882 to adopt the London code which became football as we know it today, hence the reason the BFC history books state that Burnley Rovers were a rugby club. Which is possibly the confusion?

Would that make Calder Vale rugby club, Burnley Rovers?

[thehistorylecturer58]

The current Burnley RFC previously known as Calder Vale were founded in 1926. Not sure why they adopted the name or if they ever played at Calder Vale at any point but their first fixture was played at Simonstone.

[DingleDangle]

Strange one, as Calder Vale and now Burnley RFC play at Holden Road in Reedley.

[thehistorylecturer58]

Strange one, as Calder Vale and now Burnley RFC play at Holden Road in Reedley.

Yes I don't know much about the Rugby club or their history but I have been known to watch Belvedere at Holden Road.

[DingleDangle]

Yes, as it's also know as Calder Vale and Belvedere, who both play at Holden Road. Obviously Calder Vale now as Burnley RFC.

I know it's Wikipedia, but this is what it says about Burnley RUFC's history:

"Early
edit
There is a record of a rugby club in Burnley in 1880, the club named Burnley Rovers one of the earliest clubs in the country, later to become Burnley Football Club in 1882

Calder Vale Rugby Club played their first match against a Blackburn XV on Saturday November 29, 1926 at Cockshot Farm, Simonstone. It was won 19 - 3. [5 tries and a drop goal worth 4 points]

In 1985, the first experimental RFU league structure -the Girobank League- was set up in the North West of England and Calder Vale was involved."

[DingleDangle]

Sorry, it's known as Belvedere and Calder Vale Sports Club, based on Holden Road, Reedley

[thehistorylecturer58]

Belvedere's second XI played as Calder Vale in the East Lancs League a few seasons ago ..

I have a match report from 1877 concerning a game between Burnley Rovers and Burnley Football and Cricket club played at Calder Vale .. it mentions the print works end which also goes a long way to confirming where Calder Vale actually was ...

[thehistorylecturer58]

As an aside Burnley Rovers were founded in 1874 according to the Burnley Gazette of September 26th that year which to my mind makes our club 150 years old in 2024 ? Regardless of the rules debate the club itself was clearly founded in 1874 not 1882.

[BabylonClaret]

Really interesting thread this - the complex nature of different codes as the game(s) became standardised in the 19tb century (lots of stuff got standardised then sports wise - the Victorians were very keen on it)

We should change the title of the thread to BFC and football history

[thehistorylecturer58]

[thehistorylecturer58]

Gazette - 13th January 1877

[DingleDangle]

Very interesting, as reading that, it kind of assumes that there was a mixture of codes in that match, seemingly London and Sheffield. Also interesting to note the kick off time of 3pm, as that is the time the FA adopted for it's kick off times. Coincidence though, maybe?

[thehistorylecturer58]

Very interesting, as reading that, it kind of assumes that there was a mixture of codes in that match, seemingly London and Sheffield. Also interesting to note the kick off time of 3pm, as that is the time the FA adopted for it's kick off times. Coincidence though, maybe?

It's certainly quite difficult to picture the rules when reading some of these early reports . I think as elwaclaret mentioned they would often agree at the last minute or play one half of each rule set . What I have worked out from reading these early reports is that the Cricket club's attempts to establish a football section seemed to have stalled a couple of times whereas our club bases at Calder Vale were steadily playing fixtures around Lancashire and what is now West Yorkshire .

[thehistorylecturer58]

*based

[thehistorylecturer58]

Association rules - the well documented change in 1882
but note the comments about the tent and the bridge (Holme Road)

[DingleDangle]

Yes, it seems like in the Gazette report, re-reading it, the 1st half kicked off as a football match and the 2nd half resumed as a rugby match with tries being scored.

It's all very murky, which makes it even more interesting.

[thehistorylecturer58]

Final fixture list for our club as Burnley Rovers ... the newspaper that day also carries a report of Calder Vale CCs game against Padiham Church .. the 19th century cricket reports are very interesting too.

[thehistorylecturer58]

…. And of course when I say Burnley, I am referring to the club that became Burnley, through various moves prior to being directly connected to the Cricket Club… Albion Mill’s weavers shed team.

All good stuff .. one question -

Does the Albion Mill team link to Burnley Cricket & Football Club or our club Burnley Rovers ? .. as far as I can see our club was founded as per the newspaper report in September of 1874 and played against the club from Turf Moor on a number of occasions ?

[elwaclaret]

All good stuff .. one question -

Does the Albion Mill team link to Burnley Cricket & Football Club or our club Burnley Rovers ? .. as far as I can see our club was founded as per the newspaper report in September of 1874 and played against the club from Turf Moor on a number of occasions ?

It is Burnley Rovers they had a season (possibly two) at the Turf… they played the cricket team at ‘football’ and then cricket and that seems to be where the connection was made that eventually led to the offer of sharing the cricket club. The move ‘next door’ came about due to complaints about the footballers not doing their share of cleaning and repair and the state of the club changing rooms after the footballers had played. This was what triggered the meetings that led to the club becoming Burnley Football club (at the Bull) and what we know from official history… which really only began to be recorded when the league entered the second (possibly third) season when it became clear the Football League had not only survived, but was getting stronger as an experiment and was massively being over subscribed (including a rather close re-election where Burnley beat Sheffield Wed by a very close vote).

[Dazzler]

Very interesting, as reading that, it kind of assumes that there was a mixture of codes in that match, seemingly London and Sheffield. Also interesting to note the kick off time of 3pm, as that is the time the FA adopted for it's kick off times. Coincidence though, maybe?

Check out the history of Rugby Union. In the very early days a try was of no value, it just allowed a side to score a point from a conversion.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_o ... on#Scoring

Scroll over half way down for the table that shows the history of scoring.

[thehistorylecturer58]

Forget the Cricket club prior to 1882 for a minute .. they tried to establish their own football section on a couple of occasions during the period prior to Burnley Rovers moving over to Turf Moor ..

In simple terms your research has found Albion Mill - Burnley Rovers (1874) - Burnley FC (1882) as a direct lineage ?

Now to my mind that is enough to prove that our club was in reality founded in 1874 rather than 1882 as we were playing organised fixtures and producing accounts ...

[thehistorylecturer58]

Check out the history of Rugby Union. In the very early days a try was of no value, it just allowed a side to score a point from a conversion.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_o ... on#Scoring

Scroll over half way down for the table that shows the history of scoring.

They often used the term rouge in the 1870s/ early 1880s reports