Mr Bates vs the Post Office

[JohnDearyMe]

Outstanding Tele, I felt like standing up and clapping at the end of it!

Superb television. Let's hope justice is done and delivered quickly

[Bosscat]

Tough but compelling viewing ... lets hope justice for them all is forthcoming...

As has been said this is TV at it best

[Westleigh]

Does it not just appear on the smart tv's?

Use ITV X on Firestick but also available on IPad.

[claretburns]

I remember Andy Burnham's speech in Parliament after the Hillsborough unlawful killing verdict and he said, "why should the authorities be able to spend public money like water when families have no such help".

A shame to see this is still happening.

[basil6345789]

ITV X runs like a donkey on our smart tv's -the old ITV Hub was fine!

[Tricky Trevor]

I was pleased at the end he was contacting the government for compo.
I’ve said for a long time the government should have paid this all out by now before these poor people are under the sod and they don’t have to.

[Croydon Claret]

As good as the drama was one person in particular has been completely airbrushed from its timeline.

Horizon was introduced in 1999

Adam Crozier was CEO of the Royal Mail from 2003 to 2010. The Post Office did not become independent from Royal Mail until 2012

Adam Crozier left the Royal Mail/Post office to become CEO of ITV until 2017...

Paula Vennels took over in 2012

There are plenty of sources online, here's one https://mol.im/a/12918565

[Bosscat]

As good as the drama was one person in particular has been completely airbrushed from its timeline.

Horizon was introduced in 1999

Adam Crozier was CEO of the Royal Mail from 2003 to 2010. The Post Office did not become independent from Royal Mail until 2012

Adam Crozier left the Royal Mail/Post office to become CEO of ITV until 2017...

Paula Vennels took over in 2012

There are plenty of sources online, here's one https://mol.im/a/12918565

That waa highlighted in the Express this week CC funny how an ITV drama missed that bit out ...

[Westleigh]

That waa highlighted in the Express this week CC funny how an ITV drama missed that bit out ...

Also on ITVX was a documentary speaking to the actual people that were shafted,it was as though The Post Office was a gang coming up against a rival gang,I would have like to have known who made final decision to stitch up the Postmasters and Mistresses,Ed Davy also kept his head down,but typical part politics stories asking what Davy was doing ,Opposition saying their just playing politics and should concentrate on getting the victims compensation,and no doubt someone will be making a tidy some out of an enquiry.

[atlantalad]

Excellent programme. I am sure though there several other people in the PO, besides Paula Vennels ( and perhaps Crozier), to be held accountable for the cover-up, injustice and abuse of power.

What about PO heads of IT and Accounts + their subordinates? Surely they are as responsible for not blowing the whistle as to what was going on.

The BBC should run a Panorama programme to dig out the truth as to who ( including politicans) knew what and when.

[Big Vinny K]

As good as the drama was one person in particular has been completely airbrushed from its timeline.

Horizon was introduced in 1999

Adam Crozier was CEO of the Royal Mail from 2003 to 2010. The Post Office did not become independent from Royal Mail until 2012

Adam Crozier left the Royal Mail/Post office to become CEO of ITV until 2017...

Paula Vennels took over in 2012

There are plenty of sources online, here's one https://mol.im/a/12918565

Agree that the absence of any reference to Crozier is fishy to say the least and undoubtedly he was also culpable and involved.
But the main timeline of the programme is from around 2012 so think that’s why the focus is on Vennels.

Vennels is the person who deliberately decided to cover up things and lie to everyone to protect herself and her board. She had the evidence in front of her and in a way she could have laid the blame on the previous regime that they launched a system into the live environment which was full of bugs and defects - and effectively hold Crozier responsible for this and exonerate herself.

But Vennels deliberately decided to cover up the truth and even worse criminally prosecute and destroy sub postmasters in the knowledge that they were completely innocent.

I don’t know what it takes in the country anymore to send people like this to prison. Vennels as far as I am aware has not suffered financially from this and will be sat there with her so called God and a multi million pound pension funded by the taxpayer.

[Firthy]

Vennels is the person who deliberately decided to cover up things and lie to everyone to protect herself and her board. She had the evidence in front of her and in a way she could have laid the blame on the previous regime that they launched a system into the live environment which was full of bugs and defects - and effectively hold Crozier responsible for this and exonerate herself.

But Vennels deliberately decided to cover up the truth and even worse criminally prosecute and destroy sub postmasters in the knowledge that they were completely innocent.

I don’t know what it takes in the country anymore to send people like this to prison. Vennels as far as I am aware has not suffered financially from this and will be sat there with her so called God and a multi million pound pension funded by the taxpayer.

As I said people took their own lives because of this. She and others are culpable of manslaughter and should be charged as such.

[Big Vinny K]

As I said people took their own lives because of this. She and others are culpable of manslaughter and should be charged as such.

If it was technically possible to do that I would not disagree.

[Quickenthetempo]

A great drama about a sad story line.

If anyone hasn't already signed, then please do.
https://you.38degrees.org.uk/petitions/ ... N2xZTfUoZY

[burnley007]

What about the new Head of ITV who played a major part in this story at the time. Adam Crozier. Or Cronier

I see he is strangely omitted from the story...hmm.

[No Ney Never]

I was pleased at the end he was contacting the government for compo.
I’ve said for a long time the government should have paid this all out by now before these poor people are under the sod and they don’t have to.

Had this happened in America, imagine the payout the lawyers would be filing for on behalf of their claimants, in addition to their costs! They would be looking for millions per individual, not the poxy few quid compensation that appears to be the case here.

[Quickenthetempo]

What about the new Head of ITV who played a major part in this story at the time. Adam Crozier. Or Cronier

I see he is strangely omitted from the story...hmm.

There is quite a few mentions of him on twitter about this.

And over half a million have signed that petition to get the CBE taken off that horrible woman.

[ClaretTony]

I've finally watched the fourth episode.

As a drama, it was excellent and superbly acted, led by the brilliant Toby Jones.

But quite how Vennels is still free to live her life beggars belief. Yes, I've signed the petition to have her stripped of her CBE but she should be facing some serious charges.

[Stalbansclaret]

ITV X runs like a donkey on our smart tv's -the old ITV Hub was fine!

Its not even a donkey on my 7 year old Panasonic SMART TVs...it's a non -runner . When the old ITV catch up service (which works fine) was discontinued the ITV X app failed to appear in it's place. When I queried this with ITVI I received a reply saying that unfortunately my TVs were amongst those which were currently incompatible with ITV X. I was told they ere working on this but no timescale could be given for a fix and I'm still waiting !

[claretburns]

A further 50 victims have contacted lawyers since the airing of the show on TV with Met Police now investigating.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-67899189

[Terry Cochrane]

Its not even a donkey on my 7 year old Panasonic SMART TVs...it's a non -runner . When the old ITV catch up service (which works fine) was discontinued the ITV X app failed to appear in it's place. When I queried this with ITVI I received a reply saying that unfortunately my TVs were amongst those which were currently incompatible with ITV X. I was told they ere working on this but no timescale could be given for a fix and I'm still waiting !

I'd ring Rediffusion and ask for another TV mate.

[willsclarets]

Infuriating how justice is the reserve of the wealthy and the little people have to wait decades (if at all) to see it.

Programme was really good but the last episode felt rushed

[Big Vinny K]

The sub postmaster from Bridlington who was being played by Will Mellor had to pay the POs legal costs of £350k and ended up losing everything he had and having to declare himself bankrupt.

Few years later the PO lose in court yet the legal costs of £46m incurred by the sub postmasters class action have to be paid out of the compensation agreement of £58m - ie by the sub postmasters.

Pretty much sums up our justice system and this case. Make an innocent man bankrupt and an effectively a large government department get away scott free.

And now trying to take the CBE she should never have got from her - talk about small victories…..she should be in prison and her multi million pound taxpayer paid pension taken off her.

[Spijed]

One thing I don't understand is why some are still fighting in court to have their names cleared.

Surely anyone who got convicted using the Horizon system should have had their conviction automatically quashed due to all the evidence being unreliable.

[Big Vinny K]

One thing I don't understand is why some are still fighting in court to have their names cleared.

Surely anyone who got convicted using the Horizon system should have had their conviction automatically quashed due to all the evidence being unreliable.

Assuming that this is because you must have to go through some long winded and possibly expensive legal process to get these removed.
But like you say you think the government could intervene and make this process easier to get any historical criminal charges automatically removed.

The government would no doubt argue they can’t intervene in the due independent justice processes (but funnily enough seem to do this when it suits them on Brexit, immigration policy or any other perceived vote winner). Hopefully when they realise which way the public wind is blowing on this one they will get their arse in gear.

[ClaretPete001]

I don't know if it was mentioned above but Adam Crozier left the RM to go to .......ITV, which is perhaps why he isn't mentioned.

[Tricky Trevor]

I’m pleased to see the police are now investigating PO staffers for fraud but no mention yet of Fujitsu, the cause of all the injustices.
https://news.sky.com/story/post-office- ... s-13042832

[Spijed]

but no mention yet of Fujitsu, the cause of all the injustices.

They've had the contract with the post office extended!
https://www.computerweekly.com/news/366 ... nded-again

[Big Vinny K]

I’m pleased to see the police are now investigating PO staffers for fraud but no mention yet of Fujitsu, the cause of all the injustices.
https://news.sky.com/story/post-office- ... s-13042832

I’d be amazed if the IT company who were employed by the PO under a contract worth hundreds of millions of pounds to Fujitsu were changing balances within the systems without the authority of Post Office staff.

If that would have been the case the Post Office could have just laid all the blame at Fujitsu and all the liability would have gone to them also. Plus they would undoubtedly have commercial claims they could have made themselves under their contract which would have been worth a lot of money to the PO.

It makes no sense and I do not believe it for one second that Fujitsu were doing this to try and defend their own systems. All systems have defects - especially ones as complex and big as this one. The decision on whether to launch a system into the live environment with defects is a risk based one that is always down to the client - ie the Post Office. Every IT company will always effectively rid themselves of any liability by making it clear that there are defects and what these are.

So again it makes no sense for Fujitsu to manipulate the data and try and hide the defects unless the client is telling them to do so.

Fujitsu are not blameless though as they agreed to do this and then said nothing and watched as people lost their lives, businesses and freedom fully in the knowledge that they were innocent and that their actions in changing data had caused all of this. “We were only obeying orders” does not cut it.

[THEWELLERNUT70]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m0016t20

Link to updated Panorama program which lasts for nearly an hour

[Boss Hogg]

Needs a proper investigation and convictions including Vennels. A National disgrace. There are other CEOs out there who operate in a similar manner and just move on to other companies when the going gets tough. I’ve experienced their lies and cover ups, towing the company line. I don’t know how some live with themselves.

[CrosspoolClarets]

Just finished it now. Superb telly, great acting. Felt real.

A shame the programme wasn’t up to date. All this year’s (insufficient but a start) offers to the convicted not mentioned.

I reckon they need to whip the CBE off the ex CEO and give the same medal straight to Alan Bates. What a hero.

What strikes me is how many of our institutions have gone from being trusted 100% as a vital part of our lives to being as trustworthy as a bunch of mobsters. Royal Fail, Network Fail, BBC, Banks, Politicians, Police, Home Office, Justice System, NHS. I wouldn’t trust any of them now as far as I could throw them. It is the scandal of our times and is the biggest reason society has gone sharply downhill in the last 30 years. Not feeling you can trust anyone in any institution is a very isolating feeling. Now they are just there to cover their own backs and push their own agenda.

Well done Mr Bates.

[Jakubclaret]

Completely disgraceful what happened but I think some of the subpostoffice people were far too trusting given the scale, some of the smaller rural isolated branches that were way below can't have been generating that much footfall surely a pen & paper & a calculator would have offered certainty in 1s own mind instead of doubts & just being fobbed off so easily.

[Paul Waine]

I’m pleased to see the police are now investigating PO staffers for fraud but no mention yet of Fujitsu, the cause of all the injustices.
https://news.sky.com/story/post-office- ... s-13042832

Reports I've read are that police have already been investigating 2 Fujitsu staff for perjury.

The formal government inquiry into Post Office/Fujitsu has been running for some time. It's information discovered through the inquiry that led to initiation of police investigation of Fujitsu staff. Similarly, information discovered in the inquiry is initiating MET investigations of Post Office senior management.

Re computer "bug" and errors: the inquiry discovered that Fujitsu/Post Office maintained a "Large Errors Log." But, the existence of the LEL was not disclosed in the trials of sub-post masters.

[Jakubclaret]

everything about you is crap.

Tremendous response. Well done.

[yTib]

Tremendous response. Well done.

no. well done to you.

well done for once again showing the world how utterly stupid you are.

people like you shouldn't even be allowed on the internet.

[Jakubclaret]

no. well done to you.

well done for once again showing the world how utterly stupid you are.

people like you shouldn't even be allowed on the internet.

Counter articulately why I'm wrong with what I've posted that's how discussions are meant to go. Insults aren't the progressive way forward not in my world anyway.

[Paul Waine]

They've had the contract with the post office extended!
https://www.computerweekly.com/news/366 ... nded-again

Great link to Computer Weekly - includes a timeline from 2009, with a lot of detail, of Post Office Horizon scandal. It also includes a link to an earlier Computer Weekly 2009 article.

It's also worth googling Paul Marshall and reading a speech he gave to University of Law in 2021. Marshall is KC representing subpostmasters.

"Scandal at the Post Office. The intersection of law, ethics and politics"

https://www.postofficetrial.com/2021/06 ... ch-to.html

[Jakubclaret]

in my experience any salient reply to your silly opinions is either ignored or misunderstood.

if you'd actually been paying attention to the case you'd know that a great deal of the submasters did indeed challenge the accounting errors made by the horizon system and were subsequently prosecuted.

i wonder how easy they'd have found it for you to be 'fobbed off'.

oh yeah and at least four of them committed suicide you glib, slimy moron.

It went on for far too long & apart from the gentleman who spearheaded the whole operation, I can't recall 1 other person on that program who stated that they'd done all the sums & had it recorded in black & white. I'm not talking about major cities/town branches where you have a lot of customers I'm talking about the smaller branches where people occasionally cash their giros in & pensions. To me red flags would go up straightaway & I'd be accountable for every last penny.

[Nori1958]

in my experience any salient reply to your silly opinions is either ignored or misunderstood.

if you'd actually been paying attention to the case you'd know that a great deal of the submasters did indeed challenge the accounting errors made by the horizon system and were subsequently prosecuted.

i wonder how easy they'd have found it for you to be 'fobbed off'.

oh yeah and at least four of them committed suicide you glib, slimy moron.

I see the personal insults are creeping back in. Fortunately it's already been reported

[Big Vinny K]

It went on for far too long & apart from the gentleman who spearheaded the whole operation, I can't recall 1 other person on that program who stated that they'd done all the sums & had it recorded in black & white. I'm not talking about major cities/town branches where you have a lot of customers I'm talking about the smaller branches where people occasionally cash their giros in & pensions. To me red flags would go up straightaway & I'd be accountable for every last penny.

What on earth are you talking about ?
Why do you feel the need to put forward an opinion on a subject that you do not have the first clue about ?

All post offices had to use the horizon system. There was no choice. The day to day transactions processed were part of their salary as they got paid for processing these.
Even in the smaller post offices there were far more types of transactions than you mention. It was very often the only place you could deposit or withdraw cash. A lot of people paid their utility bills there. Pensions were withdrawn every week and many other types of transactions too. Even in a village of 500 to 1000 people there was still a lot of transactions every day.

So even if they would have kept a paper record of everything alongside the horizon records which of these do you think the Post Office would have believed ?

[Jakubclaret]

What on earth are you talking about ?
Why do you feel the need to put forward an opinion on a subject that you do not have the first clue about ?

All post offices had to use the horizon system. There was no choice. The day to day transactions processed were part of their salary as they got paid for processing these.
Even in the smaller post offices there were far more types of transactions than you mention. It was very often the only place you could deposit or withdraw cash. A lot of people paid their utility bills there. Pensions were withdrawn every week and many other types of transactions too. Even in a village of 500 to 1000 people there was still a lot of transactions every day.

So even if they would have kept a paper record of everything alongside the horizon records which of these do you think the Post Office would have believed ?

Watching that program the general consensus was the people that featured all knew something didn't add up & something wasn't right but nobody seemed to be accountable for what the correct amount should have been. I think if a decent amount of people would have kept records maybe they could have looked into the Fujitsu malfunctioning with more intent & sooner but the impression I got is people panicking & rushing to get themselves into debt to cover the money instead of making attempts to calculate. It was possible to record transactions in some cases, it's all ifs, buts & maybes it didn't happen & it went on for 6 years.

[Big Vinny K]

You do realise that Mr Bates lost his job and his post office business don’t you ?!!

As per above poster I’d prefer not to get in a debate with you - it’s tedious and will ruin a thread that so far has been an interesting read.

Back to the issue here my own view is that I do not see how technically it was possible for these glitches to only impact some of the post offices. I know now they are reporting numbers like 3,500 of the post offices being impacted by the glitches. I am pretty confident that it was every single one of the around 20,000 post offices. It will have been to varying degrees and amounts.

It’s not just the technical side of this that makes me believe this but also the experience I had in my job in dealing with the Post Office for a decade during the period all this was happening and the discrepancies we saw from the time Horizon came in. We were not aware at the time what was happening with individual post offices and it was only when it all came out that it started to make sense and that you could align what had happened to the major banks who had reciprocal commercial contracts with the Post Office (for processing cash deposits / withdrawals) and what had happened in the individual post offices.

Without going into too much detail (not because it’s confidential as I have left the bank - it’s just a bit boring !) the discrepancies were all to do with reconciliation and horizon producing incorrect data from its own systems. The Post Office because of who they were fought this for several years even though the bank was able to provide the data which proved they were wrong. But the Post Office dealt with Banks pretty much with the same disdain and denial that it did with the sub post masters and as depicted in the programme.

[Jakubclaret]

No thread will be ruined & if it's anybody that's ruining threads I'd suggest it's people that are mouthing off insults being the most likely culprits. I offered the simple opinion that I thought some of the post office staff were too trusting in the matter nothing more & nothing less & this will be my last post of the thread before I'm yet again accused of dragging it through the mud. Have a good day.

[Papabendi]

You do realise that Mr Bates lost his job and his post office business don’t you ?!!

As per above poster I’d prefer not to get in a debate with you - it’s tedious and will ruin a thread that so far has been an interesting read.

Back to the issue here my own view is that I do not see how technically it was possible for these glitches to only impact some of the post offices. I know now they are reporting numbers like 3,500 of the post offices being impacted by the glitches. I am pretty confident that it was every single one of the around 20,000 post offices. It will have been to varying degrees and amounts.

It’s not just the technical side of this that makes me believe this but also the experience I had in my job in dealing with the Post Office for a decade during the period all this was happening and the discrepancies we saw from the time Horizon came in. We were not aware at the time what was happening with individual post offices and it was only when it all came out that it started to make sense and that you could align what had happened to the major banks who had reciprocal commercial contracts with the Post Office (for processing cash deposits / withdrawals) and what had happened in the individual post offices.

Without going into too much detail (not because it’s confidential as I have left the bank - it’s just a bit boring !) the discrepancies were all to do with reconciliation and horizon producing incorrect data from its own systems. The Post Office because of who they were fought this for several years even though the bank was able to provide the data which proved they were wrong. But the Post Office dealt with Banks pretty much with the same disdain and denial that it did with the sub post masters and as depicted in the programme.

Extremely interesting post

[Big Vinny K]

Extremely interesting post

Thanks
So I will expand as at least one person is interested !!

My bank had almost 6 million customers including 150,000 business customers some of which were very large corporates (we had 30% of the local authority and education sector for example)
But despite this size we only ever had a maximum of 200 branches. At the time all banks were cutting their branch networks as the sector moved into online transactions and centralised call centres.

So entering into commercial agreements with the Post office which allowed your personal and business customers to use one of the 20,000 post offices made a lot of commercial sense. But of course this was not free to the banks and the post office charged us for every type of transactions.

XYZ Ltd uses designated Post Office to pay in its weekly takings of five grand. That money is paid in on a Monday at the post office and reaches its bank account on the Wednesday for the same amount (there was never any discrepancy in the amount that reached us other than the rare deposit that went missing all together).

At the end of every month (or whatever the charging period was) invoice received from the Post Office to the Bank with what we had to pay them for all the different transactions (different rates for different types of transactions). As you can expect this was a significant amount to pay as there was tens of millions of pounds going through every month.

From virtually day one after Horizon went in the amount that they invoiced us for which include details of the transactions never ever reconciled to our data which was the amount that went through the actual customers bank accounts !!

The disputes went on for more than a decade and I know 100% it was the same for all the other banks that had these agreements.

And this is why I am 99.9% sure that Horizon impacted every single post office and not just a proportion of them. Plus I can’t get my head round technically how it could be the latter as it’s all to do with the central horizon system and the defects that were there from day 1 when they launched it rather than individual branch terminals. I know part of the tv drama touched on the terminal key pad that got sent for repair and this resulted in the case getting thrown out of court but I think this was more a legal technicality in this case which allowed the case to be thrown out. I don’t think for one minute that a fault in a single piece of hardware was the issue - it did not cause the reconciliation discrepancy in that post office. That discrepancy was already there.

[taio]

Thanks
So I will expand as at least one person is interested !!

My bank had almost 6 million customers including 150,000 business customers some of which were very large corporates (we had 30% of the local authority and education sector for example)
But despite this size we only ever had a maximum of 200 branches. At the time all banks were cutting their branch networks as the sector moved into online transactions and centralised call centres.

So entering into commercial agreements with the Post office which allowed your personal and business customers to use one of the 20,000 post offices made a lot of commercial sense. But of course this was not free to the banks and the post office charged us for every type of transactions.

XYZ Ltd uses designated Post Office to pay in its weekly takings of five grand. That money is paid in on a Monday at the post office and reaches its bank account on the Wednesday for the same amount (there was never any discrepancy in the amount that reached us other than the rare deposit that went missing all together).

At the end of every month (or whatever the charging period was) invoice received from the Post Office to the Bank with what we had to pay them for all the different transactions (different rates for different types of transactions). As you can expect this was a significant amount to pay as there was tens of millions of pounds going through every month.

From virtually day one after Horizon went in the amount that they invoiced us for which include details of the transactions never ever reconciled to our data which was the amount that went through the actual customers bank accounts !!

The disputes went on for more than a decade and I know 100% it was the same for all the other banks that had these agreements.

And this is why I am 99.9% sure that Horizon impacted every single post office and not just a proportion of them. Plus I can’t get my head round technically how it could be the latter as it’s all to do with the central horizon system and the defects that were there from day 1 when they launched it rather than individual branch terminals. I know part of the tv drama touched on the terminal key pad that got sent for repair and this resulted in the case getting thrown out of court but I think this was more a legal technicality in this case which allowed the case to be thrown out. I don’t think for one minute that a fault in a single piece of hardware was the issue - it did not cause the reconciliation discrepancy in that post office. That discrepancy was already there.

Why wait until now?

[Big Vinny K]

Why wait until now?

Not sure what you mean ?

[taio]

Not sure what you mean ?

It's an absolute outrage what has gone on. Disgusting. I had no insight into what has happened. I want to see criminal prosecutions. I don't understand why only now this has become widely known. It seems you were privy to it so why have you never mentioned it before?

[Big Vinny K]

It's an absolute outrage what has gone on. Disgusting. I had no insight into what has happened. I want to see criminal prosecutions. I don't understand why only now this has become widely known. It seems you were privy to it so why have you never mentioned it before?

I’ve already said above that I want to see prosecutions too.

Not sure why you think that because I have not mentioned it on a football forum before now that it has not been discussed before ?

It’s also a lot more complex than how I have tried to simplify it above. What happened to the post offices reconciliation systems is also very different to the discrepancies banks were seeing. At the time we had no idea what was happening at individual post offices and it was not a national news story either at the time.

But when it did become news and more and more details emerged then you did start to see the cross over and the common denominator too.