New ground

[Roosterbooster]

96 posts on something that isn't going to happen.

1 post mocking people for daring to have a discussion

[forzagranata]

It's a really interesting discussion and there is plenty that could and should be upgraded on the Turf.

But I shudder to think what we would end up with if ALK took out yet another loan to rebuild Turf Moor.

[LoveCurryPies]

"Build it and they will come!"

[NewClaret]

It's a really interesting discussion and there is plenty that could and should be upgraded on the Turf.

But I shudder to think what we would end up with if ALK took out yet another loan to rebuild Turf Moor.

Can you imagine the meltdown in here if they got a £100m loan for a new stadium

In all honesty though, I thing a read of the Jimmy Max & Longside, plus a new wraparound CFS probably wouldn’t cost much more than some of our individual players this summer, so shouldn’t be too far-fetched.

Ultimately doing nothing on the stadium forever is not an option either, and since ALK say they’re long term investors, I’d love to see their vision for Turf Moor even it’s delivered over many phases/dependent on on-field success.

[Bordeauxclaret]

Jimmy what?

[claretonthecoast1882]

Jimmy what?

Its a sponsorship deal with TK Maxx

[Clarets4me]

To build the Jimmy Mac & James Hargreaves Stands, we got a grant of £2.25m towards the total costs of £5.2m .... they're basic, I admit, but perfectly functional .. the play off win v Stockport and that one season in Division 2 qualified us for the grant. If we hadn't built them, then imagine the problems we'd have had after the Sheffield Utd play off win. A net spend of just over £3m for two stands seating 14,000 was fantastic value ...

A new Cricket Field stand is the next move, but it's a one-time decision and the Club need to get it right ...

[ChrisG]

To build the Jimmy Mac & James Hargreaves Stands, we got a grant of £2.25m towards the total costs of £5.2m .... they're basic, I admit, but perfectly functional .. the play off win v Stockport and that one season in Division 2 qualified us for the grant. If we hadn't built them, then imagine the problems we'd have had after the Sheffield Utd play off win. A net spend of just over £3m for two stands seating 14,000 was fantastic value ...

A new Cricket Field stand is the next move, but it's a one-time decision and the Club need to get it right ...

I would imagine you're looking at closer to £50/60m per stand nowadays, but like you said they did the job given the resources available

[NewClaret]

Its a sponsorship deal with TK Maxx

Got to fund it somehow

[Clarets4me]

I would imagine you're looking at closer to £50/60m per stand nowadays, but like you said they did the job given the resources available

Yes, adjusted for inflation, in today's money we got two new stands for £7.18 m !!

[Clarets4me]

The new Spurs ground worked out at £13,679 per seat, even adjusted for inflation, the two Linpave stands cost us £512 per seat, net of grant money ..

[Foshiznik]

Everything's cheaper up north!

[South West Claret.]

Train prices aren’t

[TsarBomba]

I would imagine you're looking at closer to £50/60m per stand nowadays, but like you said they did the job given the resources available

It wouldn’t be £50/60M.

The away end at Fulham is an example of how it could be done on the cheaper side if necessary.

There’s no ‘back’ to the stand at Fulham and it’s open. Steel girders supporting the terracing and a steel roof over the top. It probably is no more than the cost of one or two players.

What we can’t keep doing is short term thinking, and spending good money constantly titivating the CFS. We’ve easily spent £5-£10M+ on the CFS since our first promotion back in 2009, and all we are doing is kicking the can down the road.

[Gordaleman]

Jimmy what?

Jimmy Holland 'Wet sponge stand'. ???

[TsarBomba]

Regarding my last post re Fulham’s away stand, I’ve been looking for figures on the cost of the redevelopment of Craven Cottage back in 2004 (yes, I’m that sad), and there’s various figures banded around between £8-£15M.

The Bank of England inflation calculator puts £8M in 2004 to £12M in 2023. Obviously that will have gone up again in the past year.

The higher figure of £15M in 2004 is £23M in 2023.

So even at the higher figure quoted, that’s £23M in today’s money for the whole redevelopment of Craven Cottage.

So the redevelopment of one stand could logically be around 1/4 of that price, so just under £6M.

I appreciate this is the back of a fag packet maths, and £6M to redevelop a stand in 2024 using Fulham as an example is still likely on the low, but I think it’s evidence that redevelopment of the CFS if done sensibly could really be done at a reasonable price.

Don’t forget we’ve easily spent over £6M on the stand since 2009. It really doesn’t make sense to carry on with our current approach.

[Jamesy]

We are not going to get attendances over 30,000 ever, and that would be stretching it. Therefore just redevelop the CFS with a nice double decker stadium after buying cricket club land and them moving to fulledge? Could open the land up then and make it a true walk around stadium. A six thousand seater stand would be more than adequate.

[dsr]

Regarding my last post re Fulham’s away stand, I’ve been looking for figures on the cost of the redevelopment of Craven Cottage back in 2004 (yes, I’m that sad), and there’s various figures banded around between £8-£15M.

The Bank of England inflation calculator puts £8M in 2004 to £12M in 2023. Obviously that will have gone up again in the past year.

The higher figure of £15M in 2004 is £23M in 2023.

So even at the higher figure quoted, that’s £23M in today’s money for the whole redevelopment of Craven Cottage.

So the redevelopment of one stand could logically be around 1/4 of that price, so just under £6M.

I appreciate this is the back of a fag packet maths, and £6M to redevelop a stand in 2024 using Fulham as an example is still likely on the low, but I think it’s evidence that redevelopment of the CFS if done sensibly could really be done at a reasonable price.

Don’t forget we’ve easily spent over £6M on the stand since 2009. It really doesn’t make sense to carry on with our current approach.

I think you've been misinformed about the Fulham redevelopment. They didn't knock down the entire ground and rebuild it. They took what was already there and brought it up to PL standards.

As a different sort of comparative, their new Riverside stand is expected to cost £160m to house 8,000 spectators. Obviously they have certain building problems eg. the River Thames to contend with, that add to the cost.

[bf2k]

As a different sort of comparative, their new Riverside stand is expected to cost £160m to house 8,000 spectators. Obviously they have certain building problems eg. the River Thames to contend with, that add to the cost.

I bet the ground work costs for that stand are massive.

[Goliath]

Ive never really understood why we havent just rebuilt the Bob Lord with some top class hospitality as a sort of wrap around the top which includes seating in a second tier and maybe the camera position repositioned to that side. That then frees up the centre of the existing bob lord stand for regular seating and improves the capacity slightly.

[South West Claret.]

There was talk about increasing the capacity on the BL but nothing went ahead as we know.

[Foshiznik]

This “temporary” stand cost £10m this summer at Kenilworth Road

[deanothedino]

Regarding my last post re Fulham’s away stand, I’ve been looking for figures on the cost of the redevelopment of Craven Cottage back in 2004 (yes, I’m that sad), and there’s various figures banded around between £8-£15M.

The Bank of England inflation calculator puts £8M in 2004 to £12M in 2023. Obviously that will have gone up again in the past year.

The higher figure of £15M in 2004 is £23M in 2023.

So even at the higher figure quoted, that’s £23M in today’s money for the whole redevelopment of Craven Cottage.

So the redevelopment of one stand could logically be around 1/4 of that price, so just under £6M.

I appreciate this is the back of a fag packet maths, and £6M to redevelop a stand in 2024 using Fulham as an example is still likely on the low, but I think it’s evidence that redevelopment of the CFS if done sensibly could really be done at a reasonable price.

Don’t forget we’ve easily spent over £6M on the stand since 2009. It really doesn’t make sense to carry on with our current approach.

Is that the redevelopment where they just bolted some seats to the terrace that was already there and added some floodlights? I imagine people are looking for more significant works at the Turf

[TsarBomba]

I think you've been misinformed about the Fulham redevelopment. They didn't knock down the entire ground and rebuild it. They took what was already there and brought it up to PL standards.

As a different sort of comparative, their new Riverside stand is expected to cost £160m to house 8,000 spectators. Obviously they have certain building problems eg. the River Thames to contend with, that add to the cost.

I know Craven Cottage wasn’t knocked down.

But it’s similar in the sense of size, and the location being quite a tight squeeze.

And is knocking down the CFS in its entirety the only option? Could we not keep the concrete terracing as it is (as it’s probably about the right size anyway), open it out underneath to give more space to fans and put a new roof on? I concede we would then need another structure perhaps between the CFS and JH with changing rooms etc.

[TsarBomba]

Is that the redevelopment where they just bolted some seats to the terrace that was already there and added some floodlights? I imagine people are looking for more significant works at the Turf

Well, no, for a start the away end was uncovered.

[CoolClaret]

Deepdale is a pretty good ground these days - could easily have the CFE as something like their away end and the Bob Lord like their one with the hospitality boxes and that clock (minus the clock, ofc).

I much prefer having big kop ends than tiered stands, much better for the atmosphere, imo.

[deanothedino]

Well, no, for a start the away end was uncovered.

Sorry, I missed the roof. However all of our stands already have seats and a roof, and we already have floodlights so I would assume people want more substantial upgrades.

[Blatherwickstattoo]

Tosh, he is more visible than previous owners, has footprints on social media & does actually care & comes across very well. What do you want? Invite to tea, seat in the dressing room on match days? What other owners of prem clubs or big businesses are approachable or more visible.

Where did I say about him not being visible ?

[Rileybobs]

This “temporary” stand cost £10m this summer at Kenilworth Road

It’d be great if we knocked down the CFS and BLS and replaced them with something contemporary like this, perhaps even join the stands at a right angle.

[ElectroClaret]

Therefore just redevelop the CFS with a nice double decker stadium after buying cricket club land and them moving to fulledge?

Wasn't this tried years ago but the cricket club refused
to co-operate?

[BigGaz]

But surely it would be possible to improve the wifi without having to build a whole new ground?

For sure. Id rather we redeveloped the Turf to be honest, one stand at a time, but since we're at it (in this hypothetical scenario) think about how the full package will look when it's all joined together and look to innovate where we can as part of that.

[BigGaz]

Wasn't this tried years ago but the cricket club refused
to co-operate?

I might be simplifying it here but surely a Chief Executive with a bit of teeth would easily solve that stalemate.

'either come to an agreement with us, let us pay you well for you to hand it over, or we're going to have no alternative but to look for a new site on the outskirts of town rather than redevelop the existing property. Tell me what will happen to your cash cow then?'

Not saying that we would of course but call their bluff?

[deanothedino]

I might be simplifying it here but surely a Chief Executive with a bit of teeth would easily solve that stalemate.

'either come to an agreement with us, let us pay you well for you to hand it over, or we're going to have no alternative but to look for a new site on the outskirts of town rather than redevelop the existing property. Tell me what will happen to your cash cow then?'

Not saying that we would of course but call their bluff?

If I was the cricket club I'd call the football club's bluff on moving out of town every day of the week. It won't happen and the cricket club will know that.

[Quickenthetempo]

Deepdale is a pretty good ground these days - could easily have the CFE as something like their away end and the Bob Lord like their one with the hospitality boxes and that clock (minus the clock, ofc).

I much prefer having big kop ends than tiered stands, much better for the atmosphere, imo.

I take it you haven't been on Deepdale recently or Wigan for that matter?

It's good to have so many fans together in a single tier but the concourses aren't big enough. Wigan have had to reduce the capacity by a thousand and there was very nearly crushing at Preston for our Friday night game.

Two tiers means two concourses and chance for corporate. More safety and more money.

[Mark the Claret]

Build a fanzone for away fans on that little car park on the other side of the away turnstiles, and cut off the cricket clubs cash flow, then negotiate a deal and let them take over that when a deal is in place.

[Alan Young]

Wasn't this tried years ago but the cricket club refused
to co-operate?

Nope. Fulledge residents blocked the relocation of the cricket club. Clearly it’s not as simple as some are suggesting and the idea hasn’t been revisited since by BFC as far as I’m aware.

[k90bfc]

The Modern Day Owner,took all our heroes portraits down outside of Turf Moor,painted everywhere black and depressing,more lights than Blackpool have everywhere,where we are in the League,On and Off the pitch,sure aint working,but We are only fans,after all!

[ChrisG]

Regarding my last post re Fulham’s away stand, I’ve been looking for figures on the cost of the redevelopment of Craven Cottage back in 2004 (yes, I’m that sad), and there’s various figures banded around between £8-£15M.

The Bank of England inflation calculator puts £8M in 2004 to £12M in 2023. Obviously that will have gone up again in the past year.

The higher figure of £15M in 2004 is £23M in 2023.

So even at the higher figure quoted, that’s £23M in today’s money for the whole redevelopment of Craven Cottage.

So the redevelopment of one stand could logically be around 1/4 of that price, so just under £6M.

I appreciate this is the back of a fag packet maths, and £6M to redevelop a stand in 2024 using Fulham as an example is still likely on the low, but I think it’s evidence that redevelopment of the CFS if done sensibly could really be done at a reasonable price.

Don’t forget we’ve easily spent over £6M on the stand since 2009. It really doesn’t make sense to carry on with our current approach.

Construction inflation isn't in line with overall inflation. The cost of steel alone rose from around £1,500/tonne to over £3,000 a ton between 2018 and 2021.

Demolition of the existing stands would be around a million.

The ground was formerly on a colliery so we're going to need piles. I reckon the footprint of a new Longside is circa 120x30m = 3,600m2. Call it £800m2 for piled foundations. That's around £3m.

Wembley took 23k tonnes of steel to build, so let's be conservative and say 2,500 tonnes on 1 new stand. That's £7.5m in steel.

Reinforces concrete is around a £1,000 cube. Let's say 4000 m2 x 0.2m x 2 tiers for the concrete terrace, plus same for the concourse. That's another £3.2m.

Cladding is circa £180/m2 installed, so 120 x 20 = £500k, plus the sides, say another £350k.

Roof is say 4,000m2, call it £150/m2 for the covering installed, £600k.

Seats, 7000 at 300 a piece, £2m.

Railings etc, 500k.

M&E, Plumbing, £1.5m

Concourses to a decent standard will be £2m fit out.

The executive lounges will be needed to pay for the costs, fit out will be roughly £2,000/m2 for something like the Longside at the minute. Easily £5mil.

It all adds up.

[ChrisG]

That's just some of the packages, you'll need a lot more than that. I've not even included floodlights, media centre etc.

Plus main contractor preliminaries at circa £35k a week, OH&P at 7%, professional fees at 15%, permitting fees etc. You'll not get much change out of £50m for a new decent spec 'futureproof' Longside.

[deanothedino]

Build a fanzone for away fans on that little car park on the other side of the away turnstiles, and cut off the cricket clubs cash flow, then negotiate a deal and let them take over that when a deal is in place.

And then where do the players park?

We've built a fanzone, it doesn't seem to stop BCC making money

[Mark the Claret]

And then where do the players park?

We've built a fanzone, it doesn't seem to stop BCC making money

You couldn't get or wouldn't want 2000 away fans in the fanzone, I'm sure you could reserve parking for directors in the existing car parks, the players come to the ground by coach.

[dsr]

Build a fanzone for away fans on that little car park on the other side of the away turnstiles, and cut off the cricket clubs cash flow, then negotiate a deal and let them take over that when a deal is in place.

I can see how you can build an away fans fanzone, but how do you cut off the cricket club's cash flow? Do you build a fence round it so away fans can't get in? I think it's important to remember that away fans do have minds of their own and are not compelled to do what BFC tell them to.

Would your away fanzone be indoors?

[dsr]

I might be simplifying it here but surely a Chief Executive with a bit of teeth would easily solve that stalemate.

'either come to an agreement with us, let us pay you well for you to hand it over, or we're going to have no alternative but to look for a new site on the outskirts of town rather than redevelop the existing property. Tell me what will happen to your cash cow then?'

Not saying that we would of course but call their bluff?

As threats go, it's a poor one. "If you don't agree to give up your parking income, then we will make you give up your parking income" - it doesn't really work.

I suspect that given the gun held to their head, the Cricket Club would rather stay put and let the Football Club move, rather than the other way round.

[Mark the Claret]

I can see how you can build an away fans fanzone, but how do you cut off the cricket club's cash flow? Do you build a fence round it so away fans can't get in? I think it's important to remember that away fans do have minds of their own and are not compelled to do what BFC tell them to.

Would your away fanzone be indoors?

I haven't really thought it through, you could build something or just have a marquee, a few big screens showing the early games, put it on the club website as the designated away fans prematch bar, just make it more appealing than the cricket club therefore taking custom away from them and slowing their cash flow down,

[Somethingfishy]

I haven't really thought it through, you could build something or just have a marquee, a few big screens showing the early games, put it on the club website as the designated away fans prematch bar, just make it more appealing than the cricket club therefore taking custom away from them and slowing their cash flow down,

Sounds a perfectly good plan to me.......UTH!

[Clive 1960]

no chance of a new ground but need to sort out the Cricket Field Stand...

[CoolClaret]

I take it you haven't been on Deepdale recently or Wigan for that matter?

It's good to have so many fans together in a single tier but the concourses aren't big enough. Wigan have had to reduce the capacity by a thousand and there was very nearly crushing at Preston for our Friday night game.

Two tiers means two concourses and chance for corporate. More safety and more money.

I never go down at half-time to the concourses so couldn't say, nor does a small/congested concourse have to be a feature of any one tiered stands (can't image the ends at Spurs are congested) - can also offer hospitality above a smaller one tiered stand...

I just like Deepdale because you feel really on the action, 4 stands all one tiered and near to the pitch - god forbid if they actually got decent, bet it'd be a hard place to go.

[Burnleyareback2]

When money allows the CF needs updating to allow for safe standing and an improved concourse. That should be enough.
Perhaps Everton will be good enough to donate the money for this through the FFP fine/ compensation.

[NewClaret]

As threats go, it's a poor one. "If you don't agree to give up your parking income, then we will make you give up your parking income" - it doesn't really work.

I suspect that given the gun held to their head, the Cricket Club would rather stay put and let the Football Club move, rather than the other way round.

I’ve never understood the view that the club and cricket club are at loggerheads in some way.

I think there’s a good scope to move the pitch closer to the Jimmy Mac and Longside. There’s also a fair bit of space between the CFS and pitch, so I think we have some additional space to play with even within our own footprint. Plus even if we didn’t need extra space, bringing the fans right up to the pitch and making it a tight ground should be a priority from an atmosphere perspective.

Then you’d need maximum the strip of land where the nets are currently. They could be easily relocated. Any expansion would likely see more away fan allocation and therefore increased potential income for the cricket club. Their pavilion is way due an upgrade so surely they’d entertain something that could help fund that, and the extra income a modernised facility could bring by way of increased event & venue hire outside of match day. Surely the cricket clubs future prosperity is directly linked to the clubs and therefore they should support enhancement/growth of TM?

Pretty sure that professionals who negotiate complex and highly expensive transfers for a living could come to a mutually beneficial arrangement on a parcel of land without resorting to threats, anyway.

[Quickenthetempo]

I never go down at half-time to the concourses so couldn't say, nor does a small/congested concourse have to be a feature of any one tiered stands (can't image the ends at Spurs are congested) - can also offer hospitality above a smaller one tiered stand...

I just like Deepdale because you feel really on the action, 4 stands all one tiered and near to the pitch - god forbid if they actually got decent, bet it'd be a hard place to go.

I haven't been to the new Spurs ground yet, but the point I'm making is if you rebuilt another CF type stand you would have to set the concourse back another 30 meters.
And the longer you leave building, the more safety will feature.