Everton points deduction reduced

[FCBurnley]

Everton and Forest probably have enough points already

[Darthlaw]

We aren't getting relegated because of Everton, we're being relegated because of ourselves.

Kudos for a valid point well made.

Not sure what relevance it has to my original post, but nevertheless well done.

[jrgbfc]

I don't want to stay up on a points deduction anyway. It would be the most hollow of achievements.

Besides, I think this team needs another season in the Championship as it's clearly nowhere near PL ready. It'd be a tougher season for us if either one of Everton or Forest were to go down with us.

Agreed, staying up with our current squad and the horrible feeling around the club at present would be a disaster. We need to start again and hopefully learn lessons.

[Westleigh]

Agreed, staying up with our current squad and the horrible feeling around the club at present would be a disaster. We need to start again and hopefully learn lessons.

Can’t imagine us learning any lessons ,or is VK suddenly going to have a lightbulb moment and everything will be ok,he should be learning game by game ,but I honestly havent seen any improvement by an individual player or by the coaches tactics since Day 1.

[Paul Waine]

So, in brief:

Season 1: Spend more than the rules allow to stay up at the expense of Club X, who are playing by the rules.
Season 2: again spend more than the rules allow, this time to purchase players from the club X (such as Dwight McNeil), at reduced rate as their players wish to stay in the tope tier.
Season 3: Upon club X's return to the division, utilise your squad (bolstered by years of financial rule breaking) to beat them home and away, gaining the six points required to negate the punishment from all previous rule breaking.

I give you the English Premier League - Where cheats prosper.

Don't think you've quite lined up the seasons. Note, it's complicated by the covid-19 lockdown season. The relevant period ended in season 2021/22 - which is the season BFC were relegated.

Season 3, 2021/22; BFC finished on 35 points in 18th position and relegated. Everton finish 16th with 39 points.
Season 2, 2020/21; BFC 39 points, 17th; Everton 10th with 59 points.
Season 1, 2019/20 (and, I think some averaging with 2018/19). BFC 54 points, 10th, Everton 12th 49 points.

The second breach of FFP is for the season ending 2022/23.

[Darthlaw]

Don't think you've quite lined up the seasons.
The second breach of FFP is for the season ending 2022/23.

This relates to the three seasons previous. Obviously, the penalty (six points) may not apply but my point remains.

[Darthlaw]

Couldnt edit so:

This relates to the three seasons previous. i.e 2022/23, 2021/22 and 2020/21. McNeil signed for them in July 2022. Obviously, the penalty (six points) may or may not not apply but my point remains.

[CrosspoolClarets]

So, in brief:

Season 1: Spend more than the rules allow to stay up at the expense of Club X, who are playing by the rules.
Season 2: again spend more than the rules allow, this time to purchase players from the club X (such as Dwight McNeil), at reduced rate as their players wish to stay in the tope tier.
Season 3: Upon club X's return to the division, utilise your squad (bolstered by years of financial rule breaking) to beat them home and away, gaining the six points required to negate the punishment from all previous rule breaking.

I give you the English Premier League - Where cheats prosper.

They haven’t won home and away yet

(he now writes in hope more than expectation )

[bfcjg]

Listened to a bit of a phone in and one Evermoanian was disgusted that they didn't get an apology and the appeal result should have been announced by the Head of the Premier league, deluded but their ego constantly gets stroked.

[claretblue]

So, in brief:

Season 1: Spend more than the rules allow to stay up at the expense of Club X, who are playing by the rules.
Season 2: again spend more than the rules allow, this time to purchase players from the club X (such as Dwight McNeil), at reduced rate as their players wish to stay in the tope tier.
Season 3: Upon club X's return to the division, utilise your squad (bolstered by years of financial rule breaking) to beat them home and away, gaining the six points required to negate the punishment from all previous rule breaking.

I give you the English Premier League - Where cheats prosper.

they haven't beaten us '...home and away, gaining the six points required...'

we'll beat them at Goodison Darthlaw!

UTC

[Paul Waine]

Couldnt edit so:

This relates to the three seasons previous. i.e 2022/23, 2021/22 and 2020/21. McNeil signed for them in July 2022. Obviously, the penalty (six points) may or may not not apply but my point remains.

Hi Darthlaw, take a look at the appeal summary, the 3rd year of Everton's first breach is 2021/22.

Their second breach is 2022/23. The penalty for the second breach (and Everton's appeal) comes later.

As you mentioned Dwight McNeil I assume your "team X" is Burnley.

[CrosspoolClarets]

Do you think those 6 points will make a blind bit of difference to our league position?
We aren't getting relegated because of Everton, we're being relegated because of ourselves.

Nonsense.

We are getting relegated because we had to be stripped to the bone in May 2022 because of Everton and the Premier League, and even investing as much money as we could we couldn’t close the gap that arose because of that initial behaviour.

Evidence - Forest without a points deduction (yet) are still on the brink of relegation despite having spent double.

When we fall into the trap of many on here of getting a thrill from any criticism of our own club, it lets the original offence off the hook. We had to buy young players on the whole (experience would have been on double or triple the wages plus a hefty signing on fee) and now we can see it wasn’t enough. Because we didn’t have that established core of Pope, McNeil etc that would have stayed had we stopped up.

[Newcastleclaret93]

It's not really about us, the bigger picture is that cheating is allowed in this league. There's no deterrent whatsoever and that message is loud and clear. There was little left but the Premier league has today lost the last shred of integrity it might have claimed to have as a sporting competition.

Not sure I get that, they have still been deducted 6 points?

Don’t you only get a 7 point deduction for going bankrupt?

In the scheme of things it sounds about right unless I’m missing something

[Darthlaw]

Their second breach is 2022/23. The penalty for the second breach (and Everton's appeal) comes later.

Which is the point I made when I posted 'Obviously, the penalty (six points) may or may not not apply but my point remains.' Even so, whats to suggest we werent already at a disadvantage due to their financial rule breaking which had already taken place?

I think it's safe to assume Everton wont get a higher penalty for the second occurrence of the same rule break.

[morninbob]

Forest overspent by way more than Everton, they could be looking at at least 6 points.

[Paul Waine]

Not sure I get that, they have still been deducted 6 points?

Don’t you only get a 7 point deduction for going bankrupt?

In the scheme of things it sounds about right unless I’m missing something

9 points for administration.

[Rick_Muller]

Not sure I get that, they have still been deducted 6 points?

Don’t you only get a 7 point deduction for going bankrupt?

In the scheme of things it sounds about right unless I’m missing something

you're not comparing apples with apples though. Knowingly cheating is different to poor management resulting in administration and as such should have a different, and IMO more harsh, punishment - which is what it originally was at 10 points (which was not enough).

[Rick_Muller]

Which is the point I made when I posted 'Obviously, the penalty (six points) may or may not not apply but my point remains.' Even so, whats to suggest we werent already at a disadvantage due to their financial rule breaking which had already taken place?

I think it's safe to assume Everton wont get a higher penalty for the second occurrence of the same rule break.

their (weak) defence will be based upon the double jeopardy aspect in that they've already been punished for it, so I cant see any further points deductions for Everton. Forest may well get off too.

[quoonbeatz]

Not sure I get that, they have still been deducted 6 points?

Don’t you only get a 7 point deduction for going bankrupt?

In the scheme of things it sounds about right unless I’m missing something

They cheated, admitted they cheated, said they knew they were cheating and even explained why they cheated. I'd say that's a lot worse than going bankrupt.

It should have been a straight relegation.

[Westleigh]

Just been on the Everton board and some are still panicking about relegation ,and that Forest are dirty cheating bastards.

[distortiondave]

their (weak) defence will be based upon the double jeopardy aspect in that they've already been punished for it, so I cant see any further points deductions for Everton. Forest may well get off too.

It's not double jeopardy if they keep committing the same 'crime'. If years 20/21/22 result in punishment, and years 21/22/23 also result in punishment, that isn't double jeopardy.

[Paul Waine]

Which is the point I made when I posted 'Obviously, the penalty (six points) may or may not not apply but my point remains.' Even so, whats to suggest we werent already at a disadvantage due to their financial rule breaking which had already taken place?

I think it's safe to assume Everton wont get a higher penalty for the second occurrence of the same rule break.

Yes, Burnley were at a financial disadvantage in 2021/22 when BFC were relegated. Then Everton signed Dwight McNeil, plus James Tarkowski, who was OOC ahead of 2022/23 season - season 4 if we continue your 1,2,3 list. Burnley didn't play Everton in "season 4." Both Burnley and Everton are now in season 5.

Maybe there is scope for BFC to claim against Everton. Or, maybe the Premier League has claimed that only Premier League can enforce FFP rules and any losses resulting to clubs that stay within the rules... It's hard to know.

[Darthlaw]

their (weak) defence will be based upon the double jeopardy aspect in that they've already been punished for it, so I cant see any further points deductions for Everton. Forest may well get off too.

I think the point (Paul Waine accurately makes) is they've been deducted 6 points for breaching spending rules for the 3 seasons 2021/22, 2020/21 and 2019/20.

It remains to be seen what the penalty will be, but they are now set to be punished for breaching spending in 2022/23, 2021/22 and 2020/21.

It's akin do going through multiple speed camera's over the limit. They don't scratch off the first one because you were still speeding through the second, so double jeopardy shouldnt apply.

[Paul Waine]

you're not comparing apples with apples though. Knowingly cheating is different to poor management resulting in administration and as such should have a different, and IMO more harsh, punishment - which is what it originally was at 10 points (which was not enough).

If we equate points deduction to £X million breach of limit, then there needs to be a scale that equates Premier League tv money to Premier League points. If we work on 40 points as the standard required to maintain Premier League status and Premier League tv money to be £120 million per season, then each point is worth £3 million. Turn it the other way round, breaching the limit by £3 million results in 1 point deduction. So, Everton's £20 million breach, on a standard scale would be 6 or 7 points deduction for period to 2020/21.

[Darthlaw]

Yes, Burnley were at a financial disadvantage in 2021/22 when BFC were relegated. Then Everton signed Dwight McNeil, plus James Tarkowski, who was OOC ahead of 2022/23 season - season 4 if we continue your 1,2,3 list. Burnley didn't play Everton in "season 4." Both Burnley and Everton are now in season 5.

for clarity then:
2019/20:Spend more than the rules allow to strengthen your side and keep your PL TV Money
2020/21: Spend more than the rules allow to strengthen your side and keep your PL TV Money, including purchases from relegated clubs who did play by the rules (Godfrey)
2021/22: Spend more than the rules allow to stay up at the expense of clubs who are playing by the rules (and keep your PL TV Money).
2022/23: again spend more than the rules allow, this time to purchase players from relegated clubs (such as Dwight McNeil), at reduced rate as their players wish to stay in the top tier. (gotta keep that TV money)
2023/24: Upon previously relegated clubs return to the division, utilise your squad (bolstered by years of financial rule breaking) to beat them home and away, gaining the six points required to negate the punishment from all previous rule breaking.

[aggi]

It's hardly anything new though. Loads of teams got promoted to the Premier League after breaching Championship FFP rules and all they got was a slap on the wrist.

[Steve-Harpers-perm]

Henry Winter is happy with the decision. Sure you’ll be as supportive to other clubs across the football pyramid who get points deducted.

[DAVETHEVICAR]

By the time Manchester City Chelsea and other top clubs get to the time for a decision there will be no point deductions and will if anything result in big fines .
No way will the Premier League lose these big big clubs and Everton will not receive any more point deductions.
All in my opinions of course.

[Newcastleclaret93]

They cheated, admitted they cheated, said they knew they were cheating and even explained why they cheated. I'd say that's a lot worse than going bankrupt.

It should have been a straight relegation.

Potentially, but isn’t FFP about keeping clubs solvent/not stretching to an unsustainable level?

Surely the punishment can’t be worse for breaking FFP rules as it is for someone stretching a club so far they become insolvent?

[NewClaret]

They cheated, admitted they cheated, said they knew they were cheating and even explained why they cheated. I'd say that's a lot worse than going bankrupt.

It should have been a straight relegation.

Completely agree with this. Straight relegation is the only way to stop financial cheating.

This is barely a slap on the wrist; fortunately it probably benefits us.

[Devils_Advocate]

Regardless of the rights or wrongs of it all I think the Premier League is better for having Everton in it.

I can understand the fans of Forest and Luton being upset as it directly impacts them but for everyone else I think we can all agree that Everton is a grand old team that we all like to see doing well and seeing them relegated wouldn't be nice.

[CrosspoolClarets]

Completely agree with this. Straight relegation is the only way to stop financial cheating.

This is barely a slap on the wrist; fortunately it probably benefits us.

May benefit us massively if any compo is agreed, and if we can come back stronger, because next season in the PL could be brutal, worse than 22/23 because that year Forest, Fulham etc were new whereas now they are established. So if we add Leeds, Leicester and Southampton it becomes hard to see a small club certain to go down. It may be the year to be in the Championship and come back again with 2 smallish clubs.

(lot of ifs in my post I confess)

[CrosspoolClarets]

Regardless of the rights or wrongs of it all I think the Premier League is better for having Everton in it.

I can understand the fans of Forest and Luton being upset as it directly impacts them but for everyone else I think we can all agree that Everton is a grand old team that we all like to see doing well and seeing them relegated wouldn't be nice.

Not as subtle as your usual efforts. Must do better.

[beddie]

I haven’t read all the posts but if Everton receive a further points reduction presumably that will not be know until next season which seems wrong if they as looks likely stay up this season.

[Darthlaw]

Not as subtle as your usual efforts. Must do better.

Properly lost his gift in his old age.

[Roosterbooster]

I haven’t read all the posts but if Everton receive a further points reduction presumably that will not be know until next season which seems wrong if they as looks likely stay up this season.

If they appeal, it would be concluded the week or so after the season end. And apply to the current season

[quoonbeatz]

Potentially, but isn’t FFP about keeping clubs solvent/not stretching to an unsustainable level?

Surely the punishment can’t be worse for breaking FFP rules as it is for someone stretching a club so far they become insolvent?

Becoming insolvent is probably punishment enough. Cheating to give yourself a competitive advantage over opponents is way worse.

[Newcastleclaret93]

Becoming insolvent is probably punishment enough. Cheating to give yourself a competitive advantage over opponents is way worse.

But they have been punished? And will more than likely be punished again.

As much as they have broken the rules the last three seasons they have also made a profit from player transfers (just purely transfers).

Its not exactly like there Man City or Chelsea

[Jakubclaret]

Completely agree with this. Straight relegation is the only way to stop financial cheating.

This is barely a slap on the wrist; fortunately it probably benefits us.

You need proportionate punishments & straight relegation would be too harsh. Lots of clubs will be at it but some will have better accountants than others adept at circumnavigating & hiding figures. I think you'll start to see more of this on the rise & more clubs getting done & finding loopholes.

[boyyanno]

Nonsense.

We are getting relegated because we had to be stripped to the bone in May 2022 because of Everton and the Premier League, and even investing as much money as we could we couldn’t close the gap that arose because of that initial behaviour.

Evidence - Forest without a points deduction (yet) are still on the brink of relegation despite having spent double.

When we fall into the trap of many on here of getting a thrill from any criticism of our own club, it lets the original offence off the hook. We had to buy young players on the whole (experience would have been on double or triple the wages plus a hefty signing on fee) and now we can see it wasn’t enough. Because we didn’t have that established core of Pope, McNeil etc that would have stayed had we stopped up.

I thought this was a great post.

There is a lot of frustration going round but the bit I have bolded is bang on the money.

[Tall Paul]

But they have been punished? And will more than likely be punished again.

The punishment is probably the difference between finishing 14th and 16th, ie meaningless.

[quoonbeatz]

But they have been punished? And will more than likely be punished again.

As much as they have broken the rules the last three seasons they have also made a profit from player transfers (just purely transfers).

Its not exactly like there Man City or Chelsea

Depends if you call the loss of 10 points a punishment. I certainly didn't and 6 even less so. Making profit from sales is irrelevant. They cheated and there's really nothing else to it. There is zero deterrent for anyone else to do what they like now.

[RammyClaret61]

Non of this would be required if players and their agents weren’t taking mega millions out of the game.
We’d have top class stadiums & affordable tickets. And possibly a sporting chance on the field for all 20 teams, not just the “big 6”

[Jakubclaret]

Nonsense.

We are getting relegated because we had to be stripped to the bone in May 2022 because of Everton and the Premier League, and even investing as much money as we could we couldn’t close the gap that arose because of that initial behaviour.

Evidence - Forest without a points deduction (yet) are still on the brink of relegation despite having spent double.

When we fall into the trap of many on here of getting a thrill from any criticism of our own club, it lets the original offence off the hook. We had to buy young players on the whole (experience would have been on double or triple the wages plus a hefty signing on fee) and now we can see it wasn’t enough. Because we didn’t have that established core of Pope, McNeil etc that would have stayed had we stopped up.

We didn't have to buy just young players on the "whole" at all it's something we chose to do. In life there's balance to everything you don't have to go from 1 extreme to the other. Luton managed perfectly fine with their blend I'm using luton as an example because of a similar stature conscious of FFP. We could have easily pursued a different strategy & still remained well within the rules.

[timshorts]

So:-
1. Multiple claims of rule breaching were alleged.
2. The allegations were admitted, but
3. There was an appeal based upon the sentencing applied to the admitted breaches.
4. The appeal was based on nine points, seven of which were thrown out. The claimants succeeded on only two points.
5. The proportionate point deduction for the admitted breaches, when correctly applied was 6 points.
6. Everton, having admitted the breaches, ought to have suffered the point deduction in the relevant year, but by appealing/dragging matters out, the points deduction is to be applied two years later than it should have.
7. Had the 6 point deduction been applied to the relevant year then Everton would have been relegated and team X reprieved.
8. As a result of the above, team X suffered significant financial loss, and Everton received income that they would not have received had the penalty been properly been applied to the relevant season, and consequential, team X have suffered that financial loss as a direct result of Everton failing to comply with the league rules.
And team X therefore claims........

It's debatable whether the Premier league should be added in as a defendant, as if the breaches were admitted, the penalty should have been applied immediately. If you kill your grandmother, and admit it, you aren't going to be let out on bail while the appeal is heard, are you?

[Vegas Claret]

interesting viewing
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gYtS17RoK_c

[Jakubclaret]

So:-
1. Multiple claims of rule breaching were alleged.
2. The allegations were admitted, but
3. There was an appeal based upon the sentencing applied to the admitted breaches.
4. The appeal was based on nine points, seven of which were thrown out. The claimants succeeded on only two points.
5. The proportionate point deduction for the admitted breaches, when correctly applied was 6 points.
6. Everton, having admitted the breaches, ought to have suffered the point deduction in the relevant year, but by appealing/dragging matters out, the points deduction is to be applied two years later than it should have.
7. Had the 6 point deduction been applied to the relevant year then Everton would have been relegated and team X reprieved.
8. As a result of the above, team X suffered significant financial loss, and Everton received income that they would not have received had the penalty been properly been applied to the relevant season, and consequential, team X have suffered that financial loss as a direct result of Everton failing to comply with the league rules.
And team X therefore claims........

It's debatable whether the Premier league should be added in as a defendant, as if the breaches were admitted, the penalty should have been applied immediately. If you kill your grandmother, and admit it, you aren't going to be let out on bail while the appeal is heard, are you?

You can't beat an homicide analogy in similarity with a football club overspending.

[theduke]

Team X would have been Leicester...

They can hardly take the moral high ground. They broke FFP to get promoted out of the championship and we're punished by just a fine.

[Anonymous Claret]

Everton should be automatically relegated. No ifs and no buts. As a direct result of their cheating in 2021/22 we were relegated. Lance Armstrong was caught cheating and stripped of all his titles. Ben Johnson and other athletes were caught cheating and stripped of their titles. It should be no different for football teams caught cheating.

[Quicknick]

Well, it's better Luton come down with us and Sheff U.