Odobert and McNeil similarities

[CrosspoolClarets]

I noticed that their birth dates are only 6 days apart, based on the date they will turn 20 in the November following their breakthrough 2nd half of the season.

The similarities don’t end there.

That season, when we had the miraculous escape, Dwight got 3 goals and 5 assists in about 1,600 minutes.
So far, Wilson has 3 goals and 2 assists in 1,100 minutes.

So why has Wilson not had the same acclaim that Dwight did? Very similar age, outcomes, position on the pitch, and side in jeopardy. One difference, we haven’t got the wins this time. Not Odobert’s fault though. His output, for a 19.5 year old winger in his first half season at this level, is super, many more acclaimed signings at other clubs have worse figures in their first season.

Anyway, it just feels nice to praise one of our players, a young lad who was thrown suddenly in the deep end and deserves it.

[Goliath]

I dont see many similarities apart from them both being left footed.

[spt_claret]

I noticed that their birth dates are only 6 days apart, based on the date they will turn 20 in the November following their breakthrough 2nd half of the season.

The similarities don’t end there.

That season, when we had the miraculous escape, Dwight got 3 goals and 5 assists in about 1,600 minutes.
So far, Wilson has 3 goals and 2 assists in 1,100 minutes.

So why has Wilson not had the same acclaim that Dwight did? Very similar age, outcomes, position on the pitch, and side in jeopardy. One difference, we haven’t got the wins this time. Not Odobert’s fault though. His output, for a 19.5 year old winger in his first half season at this level, is super, many more acclaimed signings at other clubs have worse figures in their first season.

Anyway, it just feels nice to praise one of our players, a young lad who was thrown suddenly in the deep end and deserves it.

They're not remotely similar aside from being young left wingers.
McNeil was a more orthodox, go on the outside and cross player, with an awkward, deceptive dribbling style, predominantly left footed, and an incredible work rate, his biggest issue was often trying too hard. Dyche said as much of him repeatedly.
Odobert is quicker, more two footed, nothing like as good a crosser or passer at the same age but possibly a better shot, and has nowhere near the same workrate or defensive effort as McNeil, he's become lazier as the season's gone on and I thought he was utterly shameful against Bournemouth.
Odobert in theory has more variety in his locker than McNeil did at 19, and has a high potential ceiling, but he hasn't shown the same application or mentality yet compared to a 19 year old Dwight.
I honestly don't think you could pick two more different wingers if you tried, they might be the same position and might both be breaking through young but they're very different.

[CrosspoolClarets]

They're not remotely similar aside from being young left wingers.
McNeil was a more orthodox, go on the outside and cross player, with an awkward, deceptive dribbling style, predominantly left footed, and an incredible work rate, his biggest issue was often trying too hard. Dyche said as much of him repeatedly.
Odobert is quicker, more two footed, nothing like as good a crosser or passer at the same age but possibly a better shot, and has nowhere near the same workrate or defensive effort as McNeil, he's become lazier as the season's gone on and I thought he was utterly shameful against Bournemouth.
Odobert in theory has more variety in his locker than McNeil did at 19, and has a high potential ceiling, but he hasn't shown the same application or mentality yet compared to a 19 year old Dwight.
I honestly don't think you could pick two more different wingers if you tried, they might be the same position and might both be breaking through young but they're very different.

Missing the point so I’m sorry if I was unclear.

The similarities are age at breaking through, position and goals / assist output in their first half season.

Of course their styles differ, Dwight is an old fashioned type winger, Little-esque, Wilson is a more modern cut inside type. The point of my post though was to praise Wilson and hope his season gets the recognition Dwight did in his first season at virtually the exact same age.

[morninbob]

I dont see many similarities apart from them both being left footed.

Odebert is right footed

[Pickles]

Odobert cuts onto his right foot at almost every opportunity. Sometimes I wonder if people watch Burnley play. (No shame in not doing, it's an ordeal this season.)

[Quickenthetempo]

McNeil tried to set up others.

All the wingers Vinny has brought in are selfish, cut inside and shoot wingers.
We have enough goals from the left side between the youngsters, but it needed to be mirrored on the right side.

[JohnMcGreal]

So why has Wilson not had the same acclaim that Dwight did?

Just two reasons off the top of my head:

Obobert cost the club £10 million. McNeil cost nothing and came through the youth system, so naturally fans were rooting for 'one of their own', especially as so few youth players have broken into the first team in recent years.

Odobert is playing in the worst team we've ever fielded at this level and has looked doomed for most of the season. McNeil was playing in a team with more experience and nouse which actually had a chance of getting results and avoiding relegation.

[Goliath]

Odebert is right footed

Christ. I hadnt even noticed that.

[jedi_master]

McNeil was electric when he broke into our team and offered far, far more in general play than Odobert. He was a real team player who swung in a ludicrous amount of excellent crosses in his first 18 months or so in the side.

Odobert has potential but he has an awful lot to work on to make it at this level. A season in the Championship would do him a lot of good but he will probably be the one you’d think we can sell for a profit so I imagine he will go.

[Woodleyclaret]

Ditching players after one very ardous season is a very bad idea.Tressor, Ramsey,Bastien and Roberts being the exception to that idea.Roberts is too cba in his games the others not good enough .Why VK pursued Tressor is beyond me he looks slow and disinterested on his brief appearances.

[ISpeds00]

Odebert is right footed

Sums some of the people on this board up

[Claretitus]

Ditching players after one very ardous season is a very bad idea.Tressor, Ramsey,Bastien and Roberts being the exception to that idea.Roberts is too cba in his games the others not good enough .Why VK pursued Tressor is beyond me he looks slow and disinterested on his brief appearances.

Slow and disinterested is being Uber kind on Tresor. He is certainly the worst player BFC have signed in the last 7/8 years or so. Absolute garbage.

[warksclaret]

McNeil for me is now the real deal. He has impressed me so much since his move to Everton, particularly since SD became manager. Now more of a goal threat than ever

[StayingDown4Ever]

Slow and disinterested is being Uber kind on Tresor. He is certainly the worst player BFC have signed in the last 7/8 years or so. Absolute garbage.

He has been absolute garbage, you’re right - but he’s not even the worst signing made this season let alone in the last 7 or 8 years. That accolade goes to Trafford.

[mickleoverclaret]

Think it helped McNeil to stand out that he was a flair player in a team that was workmanlike without much stardust sprinkled across it, particularly out wide where we'd become accustomed to grafters who'd double up on their fullbacks without having a great amount of attacking quality at Premier League level- thinking Boyd and Arfield.

Odobert on the other hand is a talented individual who has quick feet and looks exciting when taking his man on, sometimes struggles for an end product and looks disinterested to the point of being invisible when we don't have the ball- if I gave that description to 5 different Burnley fans and asked them to name the player, there's a possibility i'd get 5 different answers.

[Claretitus]

He has been absolute garbage, you’re right - but he’s not even the worst signing made this season let alone in the last 7 or 8 years. That accolade goes to Trafford.

Can’t agree with that, he’s been very poor yes, but obviously all about opinions, and mine remains - that accolade goes to Magic Mike.

[aggi]

A lot of people on this thread have clearly never heard of Dale Stephens.

[spt_claret]

Missing the point so I’m sorry if I was unclear.

The similarities are age at breaking through, position and goals / assist output in their first half season.

Of course their styles differ, Dwight is an old fashioned type winger, Little-esque, Wilson is a more modern cut inside type. The point of my post though was to praise Wilson and hope his season gets the recognition Dwight did in his first season at virtually the exact same age.

I get that I just think that's an incredibly superficial level of comparison. Even the goal involvement similarity is misleading- going off your rough ballpark stats McNeil had a direct goal involvement every 200 minutes, Odobert 220, except McNeil did so in a far more defensively minded team and offered more all round and off-the-ball contributions than Odobert. Odobert has a comparable, marginally worse, direct goal involvement/min record in an ostensibly much more attacking and possession oriented team, without the same team & defensive play.

Odobert is still an exciting prospect don't get me wrong, but he's benefitting from being a more modern-style, flashy, inverted winger who catches the eye more. He has a trendy playstyle that lends itself better to MOTD highlights and Youtube reels. I think McNeil at 19 was a better player than Odobert, McNeil stalled age 21-22 due to the amount of pressure upon him, but he's flying now. Both on raw goals/assists and more advanced metrics Dwight's a top, top winger, I'd be shocked if he doesn't get double digit caps for England by the end of his career.

I'd post a full statistical comparison of them from FBRef using Dwight's debut season vs Odobert's but it most just backs up the eyetest:
Odobert can score slightly more spectacular goals, likes a forwards dribbling run, probably should have 1 more assist than he does, and likes to hang around the top third moreand get involved there
McNeil also outperformed his expected goals just not quite as much, created far more and better chances (even accounting for better finishers), was more productive in his possession, a more accurate/less tackled dribbler, and more involved and effective up and down the pitch, with better general possession and defensive output, slightly worse total passing accuracy but with a very different range/style and much more progressive/direct. Way ahead on goal contributing actions per 90 too (A different measure to goals+assists).

Odobert has tons of potential, but in terms of actual substance to their style and work outside of the attacking third, the data sides with McNeil at the same age (even on most attacking & possession metrics, will be distorted by both Dwight being in a more defensive team and being the more focal creative output but these are two contradictory pressures so may cancel each other out) which is probably why Odobert isn't getting the same attention from the terraces especially when you account for his fee.

[LincsWoldsClaret]

Odobert is our main out ball, a lot of our play is focused around getting the ball to him. He carries a goal threat, beats players and sets up others.
But he's 19, can't defend and he's in a crap team
Can't compare him with McNeil but he certainly deserves a ton of our support

[Casper2]

McNeil for me is now the real deal. He has impressed me so much since his move to Everton, particularly since SD became manager. Now more of a goal threat than ever

Yep , no win in 11 isn’t it
2 goals in 25 matches

[SirBob]

Everton fans I know are losing patience with McNeil, say he goes missing when the going gets tough.

[TheFamilyCat]

McNeil tried to set up others.

All the wingers Vinny has brought in are selfish, cut inside and shoot wingers.
We have enough goals from the left side between the youngsters, but it needed to be mirrored on the right side.

That's down to playing "inverted" though. Every player is going to try go get the ball on their strongest foot.

[Cooclaret]

McNeil tried to set up others.

All the wingers Vinny has brought in are selfish, cut inside and shoot wingers.
We have enough goals from the left side between the youngsters, but it needed to be mirrored on the right side.

Brilliant let’s sell them to United for 90 million, they love them there!

To be fair to Odobert and Koleosho, it think these two are going to be the best of the bunch and will both be top six Premier League players.

[CrosspoolClarets]

McNeil for me is now the real deal. He has impressed me so much since his move to Everton, particularly since SD became manager. Now more of a goal threat than ever

https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/dwight- ... ler/584769

I agree.

However, a worse output than Odobert this season, per minute played, if for example we rated it like Fantasy Football as 5 points for a goal and 3 points for an assist.

There are other stats to reflect total game contribution, I do not disagree, and don’t disagree he is further in his development, as one would expect being 5 years older. But all the stats do is prove the point that Odobert should be being lauded.

[CrosspoolClarets]

I get that I just think that's an incredibly superficial level of comparison. Even the goal involvement similarity is misleading- going off your rough ballpark stats McNeil had a direct goal involvement every 200 minutes, Odobert 220, except McNeil did so in a far more defensively minded team and offered more all round and off-the-ball contributions than Odobert. Odobert has a comparable, marginally worse, direct goal involvement/min record in an ostensibly much more attacking and possession oriented team, without the same team & defensive play.

Odobert is still an exciting prospect don't get me wrong, but he's benefitting from being a more modern-style, flashy, inverted winger who catches the eye more. He has a trendy playstyle that lends itself better to MOTD highlights and Youtube reels. I think McNeil at 19 was a better player than Odobert, McNeil stalled age 21-22 due to the amount of pressure upon him, but he's flying now. Both on raw goals/assists and more advanced metrics Dwight's a top, top winger, I'd be shocked if he doesn't get double digit caps for England by the end of his career.

I'd post a full statistical comparison of them from FBRef using Dwight's debut season vs Odobert's but it most just backs up the eyetest:
Odobert can score slightly more spectacular goals, likes a forwards dribbling run, probably should have 1 more assist than he does, and likes to hang around the top third moreand get involved there
McNeil also outperformed his expected goals just not quite as much, created far more and better chances (even accounting for better finishers), was more productive in his possession, a more accurate/less tackled dribbler, and more involved and effective up and down the pitch, with better general possession and defensive output, slightly worse total passing accuracy but with a very different range/style and much more progressive/direct. Way ahead on goal contributing actions per 90 too (A different measure to goals+assists).

Odobert has tons of potential, but in terms of actual substance to their style and work outside of the attacking third, the data sides with McNeil at the same age (even on most attacking & possession metrics, will be distorted by both Dwight being in a more defensive team and being the more focal creative output but these are two contradictory pressures so may cancel each other out) which is probably why Odobert isn't getting the same attention from the terraces especially when you account for his fee.

A lot of sense is this post but I do constantly wonder why we are so keen to find ways not to elevate our current team in our praise. It’s been a depressing season, for sure, but there have been some good moments, just not many good results, and Odobert has produced many despite not being intended to start many games.

[Rileybobs]

Brilliant let’s sell them to United for 90 million, they love them there!

To be fair to Odobert and Koleosho, it think these two are going to be the best of the bunch and will both be top six Premier League players.

I’m almost certain they won’t both be top 6 Premier League players.

[Cooclaret]

I’m almost certain they won’t both be top 6 Premier League players.

I’ll take that bet, 50p they are by 2026?

[Rileybobs]

I’ll take that bet, 50p they are by 2026?

Bit rich for me. Let’s make it 25p.

[spt_claret]

A lot of sense is this post but I do constantly wonder why we are so keen to find ways not to elevate our current team in our praise. It’s been a depressing season, for sure, but there have been some good moments, just not many good results, and Odobert has produced many despite not being intended to start many games.

I don't like overhyping players if I can help it, and I don't think it's helpful. Often results in them being put on a pedestal then criticised excessively if they have an off game. McNeil went from our star winger to, for some, a boo boy because of it, with people inventing rumours of a fallout with Dyche.
Odobert has potential. He has flaws in his game that he needs to iron out especially to make it at a bigger side, he has exciting qualities. That should be sufficient, without deciding he's better than XYZ just because he's new, and implicitly putting pressure or expectation on him accordingly.

[BabylonClaret]

Odobert is nowhere near the impact of McNeil - he contributes hardly anything most games but pops up now and the with a bit of a worldie bit of skill

[Cooclaret]

Bit rich for me. Let’s make it 25p.

Done