BFC TRANSFER NEWS SUMMER/AUTUMN 2020 (MUST CONTAIN LINK)

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Re: BFC TRANSFER NEWS SUMMER/AUTUMN 2020 (MUST CONTAIN LINK)

Post by elwaclaret » Mon Oct 05, 2020 11:09 pm

So SD told us nothing would happen before today’s deadline, that does not mean we don’t have targets for the final deadline...

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Re: BFC TRANSFER NEWS SUMMER/AUTUMN 2020 (MUST CONTAIN LINK)

Post by KateR » Mon Oct 05, 2020 11:11 pm

anyone got the Free Players list :lol:
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Re: BFC TRANSFER NEWS SUMMER/AUTUMN 2020 (MUST CONTAIN LINK)

Post by addisclaret » Mon Oct 05, 2020 11:12 pm

elwaclaret wrote:
Mon Oct 05, 2020 11:09 pm
So SD told us nothing would happen before today’s deadline, that does not mean we don’t have targets for the final deadline...
It's the hope that kills you.

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Re: BFC TRANSFER NEWS SUMMER/AUTUMN 2020 (MUST CONTAIN LINK)

Post by arise_sir_charge » Mon Oct 05, 2020 11:13 pm

AfloatinClaret wrote:
Mon Oct 05, 2020 10:45 pm
What's the melt-down in aid of? My understanding is that we still have another week or two to sign players from other than the EPL? That should be good for another 20-30 pages, particularly now that the Dyche out!/Board out!/Sign everybody! brigade seem to have resurfaced and even if we don't, far from being the end of the world, I suspect that it might be for the best.
It might not look that way right now, it may look even less so come the end of this season, but at the beginning of the 2021/22 season (whichever division we're playing in) when we're there for the kick-off and not one of the dozens of clubs who've ceased trading over the summer, it'll look a very smart move.
Football Clubs are 'businesses' in the leisure/entertainment industry, just the same as cinemas/theatres/pubs/restaurants; this year is not first and foremost about making the top-6/8/10, or even in the worst case, avoiding relegation, it's about managing to continue trading and still being around next year and to my mind, reducing/minimising costs to stay within or close to our likely income is for BFC, the best way to achieve that. Lots of our competitors are still throwing money around, but they're already so deep in a financial hole of debt and contracted player salaries that relegation will bankrupt them anyway, so like a losing gambler, they're simply chasing their losses - they've no more to lose, only their creditors have - and if they do lose their EPL place, there's every likelihood that they'll spiral on down as so many have before them. We fortunately still have a choice and if the Directors can keep the club debt-free, or close to it, whilst SD and the players work equally hard to stay in the EPL we will do it but should we fail, then there's a high probability that we can halt the decline at the Championship and re-group from there.
I’ll have a bet with you, there won’t be a single club in the top two divisions that cease trading and at the very worst there will be a handful from the league and upper none league.

Talking of signing a few much needed players putting the entire future of the club at risk is utter utter nonsense.
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Re: BFC TRANSFER NEWS SUMMER/AUTUMN 2020 (MUST CONTAIN LINK)

Post by Wokingclaret » Mon Oct 05, 2020 11:14 pm

There's was Bob Hope and No Hope, but there is Hope Hicks to spread it all!

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Re: BFC TRANSFER NEWS SUMMER/AUTUMN 2020 (MUST CONTAIN LINK)

Post by Chester Perry » Tue Oct 06, 2020 2:53 am

arise_sir_charge wrote:
Mon Oct 05, 2020 11:13 pm
I’ll have a bet with you, there won’t be a single club in the top two divisions that cease trading and at the very worst there will be a handful from the league and upper none league.

Talking of signing a few much needed players putting the entire future of the club at risk is utter utter nonsense.
That is a scenario that could well occur - what would be more likely to happen should this closed door scenario prolong (especially into further seasons) is that a fair few could end up in administration and reset, with all non football creditors losing out substantially, given the lack of matchday that is likely to be lenders rather than local businesses, though the more that do the more likely football creditors are going to be squeezed - for some clubs that could be the 2nd or 3rd time that administration has happened.

Our board are unlikely to want to take such a course of action - that appeared to be Barry Kilby's thinking post the ITV Digital collapse and the reason that Turf Moor and Gawthorpe were sold, he did not want administration because he knew that it would be local businesses who would suffer at our expense. It is worth remembering that many suppliers to all but the biggest clubs are also sponsors, I like to believe that Barry knew that and wanted to be able to look them in the eye knowing that he had done as much for them as they had done for the club.

There is another issue which is going to come to the fore if the current situation prolongs (and no one really knows when it will end) and that is clubs not being able to service their transfer debt - on Monday @SwissRamble did a long and detailed thread on debt - the scale of transfer debt is huge and has grown significantly this window with many small upfront payments and agreements in place for sizeable scheduled payments. It benefits a selling clubs accounts as they book the full transfer price but does little to help immediate cash flow. It will only take one or two significant clubs to fail to make their scheduled payments to create a sizable domino effect which would have a dramatic impact on cash flow across the game.

It is not a game our board have chosen to play this summer, preferring to strengthen the balance sheet and our future position in regard to both creditors and debtors (our own liabilities). It is also likely to have been why we were so adamant about cash up front in the sale of any of our star assets (I believe like many on here that the board were willing to make such a sale so they could then go out and strengthen the team/squad in the way in which we need, I am less convinced of Sean's willingness for such a plan, particularly when his apparent choice of replacement for Tarks got injured). According to the last published accounts (published after the January transfer window) we should now only have conditional transfer monies owed to us while we owe around £8m - £9m and have no more than £7m (probably less) of conditional payment liabilities. There is not another club in the league that has such low figures.

In less straightened, uncertain and unpredictable times it may be legitimate to say that is a sign of weakness, but at the moment it can be viewed as a position of strength. The trauma of the ITV digital years led to our club refusing to commit to significant debt unless it had the monies in place to cover them. I believe this was part of the reason for the growing cash pile (at least initially), of course that cash pile will have proven invaluable in these times and we appear to be the only club (or one of a very small number) that has not taken recourse to lenders or owners to help them deal with operational challenges even before we consider transfers.

Many clubs will be factoring incoming transfer payments if they can, passing the risks to the lenders and bringing the cash flow forward to the here and now. In turn the lenders will pricing the risk into their fees meaning that the cost of such a transaction is likely to be 10% - 15% (occasionally more as the number of such lenders is dwindling) of the transfer balance. Last summer such fees were around 7%. That is a high price, that comes straight off the bottom line.

Meanwhile our club, like all in the Premier League will be factoring the known reductions in central payment incomes to themselves (normally responsible for around 85% of our income and likely to be closer to 90% or more currently as season ticket money should be held in case of the need to refund) in the current and next season (currently around £40m and climbing) and calculating what else they may have to face in terms of rebates to broadcasters and sponsors together with lost matchday and commercial income. At the same time they will be addressing their fixed costs to align with revised income forecasts.
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Re: BFC TRANSFER NEWS SUMMER/AUTUMN 2020 (MUST CONTAIN LINK)

Post by The Enclosure » Tue Oct 06, 2020 6:06 am

Thats all folks the big boy's window has slammed shut.
.
Now onto part two, the also rans window.I will get the popcorn.

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Re: BFC TRANSFER NEWS SUMMER/AUTUMN 2020 (MUST CONTAIN LINK)

Post by Steve-Harpers-perm » Tue Oct 06, 2020 6:40 am

The Enclosure wrote:
Tue Oct 06, 2020 6:06 am
Thats all folks the big boy's window has slammed shut.
.
Now onto part two, the also rans window.I will get the popcorn.
If it’s been anything like the last couple of months the next two weeks should be absolutely pulsating for us in terms of incomings!
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Re: BFC TRANSFER NEWS SUMMER/AUTUMN 2020 (MUST CONTAIN LINK)

Post by andyh » Tue Oct 06, 2020 6:58 am

Chester Perry I agree entirely. Well said.

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Re: BFC TRANSFER NEWS SUMMER/AUTUMN 2020 (MUST CONTAIN LINK)

Post by The Enclosure » Tue Oct 06, 2020 7:14 am

A good summary of the situation Chester Perry.

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Re: BFC TRANSFER NEWS SUMMER/AUTUMN 2020 (MUST CONTAIN LINK)

Post by Danieljwaterhouse » Tue Oct 06, 2020 7:24 am

So I said I’d apologise, here it is!

I apologise for all the wrong rumours, Dwight, Tarks, Jones.....

All given to me in good faith and I am sure there was value in them.

Last rumour of the window:

Dyche to Nottingham Forest

Source: Well why wouldn’t he 🤷🏻 after that shower.

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Re: BFC TRANSFER NEWS SUMMER/AUTUMN 2020 (MUST CONTAIN LINK)

Post by Heathclaret » Tue Oct 06, 2020 7:52 am

Chester Perry wrote:
Tue Oct 06, 2020 2:53 am
That is a scenario that could well occur - what would be more likely to happen should this closed door scenario prolong (especially into further seasons) is that a fair few could end up in administration and reset, with all non football creditors losing out substantially, given the lack of matchday that is likely to be lenders rather than local businesses, though the more that do the more likely football creditors are going to be squeezed - for some clubs that could be the 2nd or 3rd time that administration has happened.

Our board are unlikely to want to take such a course of action - that appeared to be Barry Kilby's thinking post the ITV Digital collapse and the reason that Turf Moor and Gawthorpe were sold, he did not want administration because he knew that it would be local businesses who would suffer at our expense. It is worth remembering that many suppliers to all but the biggest clubs are also sponsors, I like to believe that Barry knew that and wanted to be able to look them in the eye knowing that he had done as much for them as they had done for the club.

There is another issue which is going to come to the fore if the current situation prolongs (and no one really knows when it will end) and that is clubs not being able to service their transfer debt - on Monday @SwissRamble did a long and detailed thread on debt - the scale of transfer debt is huge and has grown significantly this window with many small upfront payments and agreements in place for sizeable scheduled payments. It benefits a selling clubs accounts as they book the full transfer price but does little to help immediate cash flow. It will only take one or two significant clubs to fail to make their scheduled payments to create a sizable domino effect which would have a dramatic impact on cash flow across the game.

It is not a game our board have chosen to play this summer, preferring to strengthen the balance sheet and our future position in regard to both creditors and debtors (our own liabilities). It is also likely to have been why we were so adamant about cash up front in the sale of any of our star assets (I believe like many on here that the board were willing to make such a sale so they could then go out and strengthen the team/squad in the way in which we need, I am less convinced of Sean's willingness for such a plan, particularly when his apparent choice of replacement for Tarks got injured). According to the last published accounts (published after the January transfer window) we should now only have conditional transfer monies owed to us while we owe around £8m - £9m and have no more than £7m (probably less) of conditional payment liabilities. There is not another club in the league that has such low figures.

In less straightened, uncertain and unpredictable times it may be legitimate to say that is a sign of weakness, but at the moment it can be viewed as a position of strength. The trauma of the ITV digital years led to our club refusing to commit to significant debt unless it had the monies in place to cover them. I believe this was part of the reason for the growing cash pile (at least initially), of course that cash pile will have proven invaluable in these times and we appear to be the only club (or one of a very small number) that has not taken recourse to lenders or owners to help them deal with operational challenges even before we consider transfers.

Many clubs will be factoring incoming transfer payments if they can, passing the risks to the lenders and bringing the cash flow forward to the here and now. In turn the lenders will pricing the risk into their fees meaning that the cost of such a transaction is likely to be 10% - 15% (occasionally more as the number of such lenders is dwindling) of the transfer balance. Last summer such fees were around 7%. That is a high price, that comes straight off the bottom line.

Meanwhile our club, like all in the Premier League will be factoring the known reductions in central payment incomes to themselves (normally responsible for around 85% of our income and likely to be closer to 90% or more currently as season ticket money should be held in case of the need to refund) in the current and next season (currently around £40m and climbing) and calculating what else they may have to face in terms of rebates to broadcasters and sponsors together with lost matchday and commercial income. At the same time they will be addressing their fixed costs to align with revised income forecasts.

Wow, what a mess.

I guess Garlick shouldn’t really be overly criticised given the circumstances. Looks like some clubs are taking a huge risk.

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Re: BFC TRANSFER NEWS SUMMER/AUTUMN 2020 (MUST CONTAIN LINK)

Post by AfloatinClaret » Tue Oct 06, 2020 8:48 am

Chester Perry wrote:
Tue Oct 06, 2020 2:53 am
That is a scenario that could well occur - what would be more likely to happen should this closed door scenario prolong (especially into further seasons) is that a fair few could end up in administration and reset, with all non football creditors losing out substantially...
This, explained far more concisely by Chester Perry than I could manage.

I would add/stress, that I suspect that the second half of the loathesome 'administration and reset' model utilised by many clubs in recent years to cheat their competitors by stealing from their creditors, is likely to be much harder to achieve post-Covid.

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Re: BFC TRANSFER NEWS SUMMER/AUTUMN 2020 (MUST CONTAIN LINK)

Post by Paul Waine » Tue Oct 06, 2020 8:56 am

Chester Perry wrote:
Tue Oct 06, 2020 2:53 am
That is a scenario that could well occur - what would be more likely to happen should this closed door scenario prolong (especially into further seasons) is that a fair few could end up in administration and reset, with all non football creditors losing out substantially, given the lack of matchday that is likely to be lenders rather than local businesses, though the more that do the more likely football creditors are going to be squeezed - for some clubs that could be the 2nd or 3rd time that administration has happened.

Our board are unlikely to want to take such a course of action -

Quote curtailed - only to save space.
Great post Chester Perry. Good to wake up to someone who understands where the club is and the actions being taken to keep Burnley football club for the long term.

UTC

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Re: BFC TRANSFER NEWS SUMMER 2020(MUST CONTAIN LINK)

Post by BenWickes » Tue Oct 06, 2020 8:57 am

NewClaret wrote:
Mon Oct 05, 2020 7:20 pm
I trusted you Ben. How could you?
:( Was hopeful myself.

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Re: BFC TRANSFER NEWS SUMMER/AUTUMN 2020 (MUST CONTAIN LINK)

Post by cblantfanclub » Tue Oct 06, 2020 10:08 am

DJW - I suggest just stop posting stuff you're guessing at pretending you have a source - the worst in football history - along with BW. It doesn't bother me but it winds up a lot of younger board members and creates a lot of dross which makes the board harder to read. Now off you go - hopefully - and join Marlonspants.

PS - excellent read Chester

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Re: BFC TRANSFER NEWS SUMMER/AUTUMN 2020 (MUST CONTAIN LINK)

Post by Dark Cloud » Tue Oct 06, 2020 10:15 am

Chester Perry's post is insightful and extremely interesting and it puts pretty much all of us on here in a difficult position because on the one hand we're all jumping up and down about us signing nobody (I'm deliberately not counting Stephens as a signing, just to be bloody awkward!) which at this moment in time and with the start we've had to the season means we're looking like we're tied on to be relegated. So Garlick stinks! BUT, on the other hand, is he being extremely clever and shrewd and despite the flack he's taking, simply protecting the medium term future of the club? In which case he should be applauded! It's a really tough one right now and only time will tell. I find I'm reluctant to criticise the chairman too vociferously, just in case he's got it right all long! But I still wanted us to make more signings!! Weird isn't it?
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Re: BFC TRANSFER NEWS SUMMER/AUTUMN 2020 (MUST CONTAIN LINK)

Post by BigChaCha » Tue Oct 06, 2020 10:28 am

For those saying that the premier league is not our market for players and that we can still buy in the Championship etc... Do you not think we could have already purchased from the lower leagues already?

Prices for Championship players will now start going up significantly from yesterday when the Premier League window closed and there will now be more focus on the Championship so it's going to be even more competitive and far more expensive to buy players in that league!

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Re: BFC TRANSFER NEWS SUMMER/AUTUMN 2020 (MUST CONTAIN LINK)

Post by BigChaCha » Tue Oct 06, 2020 10:34 am

BUT, on the other hand, is he being extremely clever and shrewd and despite the flack he's taking, simply protecting the medium term future of the club? In which case he should be applauded! It's a really tough one right now and only time will tell. I find I'm reluctant to criticise the chairman too vociferously, just in case he's got it right all long! But I still wanted us to make more signings!! Weird isn't it?
We have massively underperformed in the last 3 to 4 transfer windows, even by Burnley standards. Did MG have a crystal ball 4 windows ago?

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Re: BFC TRANSFER NEWS SUMMER/AUTUMN 2020 (MUST CONTAIN LINK)

Post by TVC15 » Tue Oct 06, 2020 10:37 am

arise_sir_charge wrote:
Mon Oct 05, 2020 11:13 pm
I’ll have a bet with you, there won’t be a single club in the top two divisions that cease trading and at the very worst there will be a handful from the league and upper none league.

Talking of signing a few much needed players putting the entire future of the club at risk is utter utter nonsense.
You are possibly correct - but Bolton were in the top 2 divisions not too long ago and they came very close to ceasing trading. It’s not like they are in the best of places now either.
Going into administration isn’t exactly a great outcome either and I’d imagine there will be a number of clubs facing that.

The main reason Burnley are extremely unlikely to cease trading is that the current Board have ensured we are not in debt and that the books have balanced each year despite the big temptation to think that you will be in this league for many years and all the ‘riches’ this brings

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Re: BFC TRANSFER NEWS SUMMER/AUTUMN 2020 (MUST CONTAIN LINK)

Post by TVC15 » Tue Oct 06, 2020 11:06 am

BigChaCha wrote:
Tue Oct 06, 2020 10:34 am
We have massively underperformed in the last 3 to 4 transfer windows, even by Burnley standards. Did MG have a crystal ball 4 windows ago?
Just think if we would have not ‘underperformed’ - we might have beat last years record points tally by even more and finished top 6 ?
Maybe they deserve some credit for the previous successful transfer windows which have resulted in players like Tarks, Mee, Pope and Taylor being bought for a total of less than £10m and now being worth around £100m. Maybe that gives them some room for quieter transfer windows.
Or credit for making huge profits on the likes of Keane, Gray, Heaton, Ings, Vokes etc. Or maybe some credit for keeping us in the Premier League for so long with probably the lowest net spend over the last 8 years.

Nobody wanted a transfer window like this one - and that no doubt includes Dyche and Garlick. But clearly there are bigger issues at play here.
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Re: BFC TRANSFER NEWS SUMMER/AUTUMN 2020 (MUST CONTAIN LINK)

Post by FactualFrank » Tue Oct 06, 2020 11:12 am

BigChaCha wrote:
Tue Oct 06, 2020 10:28 am
For those saying that the premier league is not our market for players and that we can still buy in the Championship etc... Do you not think we could have already purchased from the lower leagues already?

Prices for Championship players will now start going up significantly from yesterday when the Premier League window closed and there will now be more focus on the Championship so it's going to be even more competitive and far more expensive to buy players in that league!
Could also mean Championship players wanting to play in the Prem and asking their club to sanction a move.

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Re: BFC TRANSFER NEWS SUMMER/AUTUMN 2020 (MUST CONTAIN LINK)

Post by Burnley Ace » Tue Oct 06, 2020 11:13 am

KateR wrote:
Mon Oct 05, 2020 11:11 pm
anyone got the Free Players list :lol:
Danny Welbeck and Jack Wiltshire

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Re: BFC TRANSFER NEWS SUMMER/AUTUMN 2020 (MUST CONTAIN LINK)

Post by RattyClaret » Tue Oct 06, 2020 11:18 am


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Re: BFC TRANSFER NEWS SUMMER/AUTUMN 2020 (MUST CONTAIN LINK)

Post by claretblue » Tue Oct 06, 2020 11:48 am

Welbeck granted free transfer:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/54433653

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Re: BFC TRANSFER NEWS SUMMER/AUTUMN 2020 (MUST CONTAIN LINK)

Post by Wile E Coyote » Tue Oct 06, 2020 11:48 am

Chester Perry wrote:
Tue Oct 06, 2020 2:53 am
That is a scenario that could well occur - what would be more likely to happen should this closed door scenario prolong (especially into further seasons) is that a fair few could end up in administration and reset, with all non football creditors losing out substantially, given the lack of matchday that is likely to be lenders rather than local businesses, though the more that do the more likely football creditors are going to be squeezed - for some clubs that could be the 2nd or 3rd time that administration has happened.

Our board are unlikely to want to take such a course of action - that appeared to be Barry Kilby's thinking post the ITV Digital collapse and the reason that Turf Moor and Gawthorpe were sold, he did not want administration because he knew that it would be local businesses who would suffer at our expense. It is worth remembering that many suppliers to all but the biggest clubs are also sponsors, I like to believe that Barry knew that and wanted to be able to look them in the eye knowing that he had done as much for them as they had done for the club.

There is another issue which is going to come to the fore if the current situation prolongs (and no one really knows when it will end) and that is clubs not being able to service their transfer debt - on Monday @SwissRamble did a long and detailed thread on debt - the scale of transfer debt is huge and has grown significantly this window with many small upfront payments and agreements in place for sizeable scheduled payments. It benefits a selling clubs accounts as they book the full transfer price but does little to help immediate cash flow. It will only take one or two significant clubs to fail to make their scheduled payments to create a sizable domino effect which would have a dramatic impact on cash flow across the game.

It is not a game our board have chosen to play this summer, preferring to strengthen the balance sheet and our future position in regard to both creditors and debtors (our own liabilities). It is also likely to have been why we were so adamant about cash up front in the sale of any of our star assets (I believe like many on here that the board were willing to make such a sale so they could then go out and strengthen the team/squad in the way in which we need, I am less convinced of Sean's willingness for such a plan, particularly when his apparent choice of replacement for Tarks got injured). According to the last published accounts (published after the January transfer window) we should now only have conditional transfer monies owed to us while we owe around £8m - £9m and have no more than £7m (probably less) of conditional payment liabilities. There is not another club in the league that has such low figures.

In less straightened, uncertain and unpredictable times it may be legitimate to say that is a sign of weakness, but at the moment it can be viewed as a position of strength. The trauma of the ITV digital years led to our club refusing to commit to significant debt unless it had the monies in place to cover them. I believe this was part of the reason for the growing cash pile (at least initially), of course that cash pile will have proven invaluable in these times and we appear to be the only club (or one of a very small number) that has not taken recourse to lenders or owners to help them deal with operational challenges even before we consider transfers.

Many clubs will be factoring incoming transfer payments if they can, passing the risks to the lenders and bringing the cash flow forward to the here and now. In turn the lenders will pricing the risk into their fees meaning that the cost of such a transaction is likely to be 10% - 15% (occasionally more as the number of such lenders is dwindling) of the transfer balance. Last summer such fees were around 7%. That is a high price, that comes straight off the bottom line.

Meanwhile our club, like all in the Premier League will be factoring the known reductions in central payment incomes to themselves (normally responsible for around 85% of our income and likely to be closer to 90% or more currently as season ticket money should be held in case of the need to refund) in the current and next season (currently around £40m and climbing) and calculating what else they may have to face in terms of rebates to broadcasters and sponsors together with lost matchday and commercial income. At the same time they will be addressing their fixed costs to align with revised income forecasts.
that is complicated, and way over my head, but if I have got the gist of it, that explanation seems to show our board in a positive light. circumstances dictate a certain stance to maintain a degree of control that other clubs have not saw fit to adhere too.
So, rather than be critical of our lack of spending at this time, they are to be applauded for being prudent.

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Re: BFC TRANSFER NEWS SUMMER/AUTUMN 2020 (MUST CONTAIN LINK)

Post by Chester Perry » Tue Oct 06, 2020 1:23 pm

Wile E Coyote wrote:
Tue Oct 06, 2020 11:48 am
that is complicated, and way over my head, but if I have got the gist of it, that explanation seems to show our board in a positive light. circumstances dictate a certain stance to maintain a degree of control that other clubs have not saw fit to adhere too.
So, rather than be critical of our lack of spending at this time, they are to be applauded for being prudent.
not necessarily positive - just my explanation as to how I see the way that they have gone about things. Experience has taught them that they cannot trust for others to do what they see as the right thing (many entrepreneurs have no compunction in doing the opposite, some may question the morality of such excessive risk taking and effectively passing it over to creditors but the law doesn't.

It is where you get to the situation of people saying that the board are out of their depth, because it is not an approach big business would take, and they are right in the sense no big business would take such an approach, they are far more ruthless (hence the attempts to furlough by Spurs and Liverpool.

The Burnley way is more of the approach a family business would take that has been in operation for generations in the same location, is deeply wedded to it's employees and community. with it's priority to survive with as many of it's current employees jobs protected as possible. The club has a long tradition of what it perceives to be the right way to do things and that has remained and perhaps been re-enforced by the experience of first the itv digital and financial crisis - prior to the latter we came close to changing that perspective under the influence of Brendan Flood - what happened to him and his business effectively sealed the current approach.

The only thing I have seen similar in my lifetime locally was the Burnley Building Society, many will remember how embedded in the local community that organisation was, it is amazing how the club has taken up that baton. Of course Burnley Building society is no more - the ideas of big business took over, senior management with no grounding in the business culture changed the model and it is no more, those jobs, that sense of community and quality white collar opportunities in the town have been lost for ever.

Will the club go the same way? it is difficult to say that they will prosper in the Premier League in the long term
- I have posted many times in the MMT thread as to how we are being continually squeezed by our revenue limitations compared to others and how the Premier League is rapidly turning into a 3 tier league financially
- I have never seen how we can escape the lower end of the 3rd of those tiers either.
- I have also pointed out (MMT thread again) that economic changes influenced by the Pandemic (particularly salary caps in the Championship) could creates a scenario where no more than 25- 30 clubs have an opportunity to play in the Premier League (Parachute payments) with as many as 12 - 14 becoming permanent fixtures simply due to economic size advantages the rest churning between divisions.

In reality it comes down to what you really want deep down and I think the board and many supporters (especially those that have been on the rollercoaster for over 40 years) want the club to exist, being a cornerstone of and doing right by it's community - that is what the model of Custodianship is essentially. and it is an approach I prefer, whatever my frustrations are when it comes to what I witness on the field. I refer you to this excellent post/thread by jdrobbo viewtopic.php?f=2&t=50295 to support that view
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Re: BFC TRANSFER NEWS SUMMER/AUTUMN 2020 (MUST CONTAIN LINK)

Post by BOYSIE31 » Tue Oct 06, 2020 1:37 pm

RattyClaret wrote:
Tue Oct 06, 2020 11:18 am
Free player list

https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/statist ... osespieler
A lot of over 30's on there so you never know ;)

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Re: BFC TRANSFER NEWS SUMMER/AUTUMN 2020 (MUST CONTAIN LINK)

Post by summitclaret » Tue Oct 06, 2020 1:42 pm

Chester Perry's post just now as usual makes a lot of sense. I just can't understand why we have not made the modest investment to get a decent 3rd choice cb and replacement for Lennon, given JBG and RB's injury records, at least on loan.

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Re: BFC TRANSFER NEWS SUMMER/AUTUMN 2020 (MUST CONTAIN LINK)

Post by Rileybobs » Tue Oct 06, 2020 1:58 pm

Chester Perry wrote:
Tue Oct 06, 2020 2:53 am
That is a scenario that could well occur - what would be more likely to happen should this closed door scenario prolong (especially into further seasons) is that a fair few could end up in administration and reset, with all non football creditors losing out substantially, given the lack of matchday that is likely to be lenders rather than local businesses, though the more that do the more likely football creditors are going to be squeezed - for some clubs that could be the 2nd or 3rd time that administration has happened.

Our board are unlikely to want to take such a course of action - that appeared to be Barry Kilby's thinking post the ITV Digital collapse and the reason that Turf Moor and Gawthorpe were sold, he did not want administration because he knew that it would be local businesses who would suffer at our expense. It is worth remembering that many suppliers to all but the biggest clubs are also sponsors, I like to believe that Barry knew that and wanted to be able to look them in the eye knowing that he had done as much for them as they had done for the club.

There is another issue which is going to come to the fore if the current situation prolongs (and no one really knows when it will end) and that is clubs not being able to service their transfer debt - on Monday @SwissRamble did a long and detailed thread on debt - the scale of transfer debt is huge and has grown significantly this window with many small upfront payments and agreements in place for sizeable scheduled payments. It benefits a selling clubs accounts as they book the full transfer price but does little to help immediate cash flow. It will only take one or two significant clubs to fail to make their scheduled payments to create a sizable domino effect which would have a dramatic impact on cash flow across the game.

It is not a game our board have chosen to play this summer, preferring to strengthen the balance sheet and our future position in regard to both creditors and debtors (our own liabilities). It is also likely to have been why we were so adamant about cash up front in the sale of any of our star assets (I believe like many on here that the board were willing to make such a sale so they could then go out and strengthen the team/squad in the way in which we need, I am less convinced of Sean's willingness for such a plan, particularly when his apparent choice of replacement for Tarks got injured). According to the last published accounts (published after the January transfer window) we should now only have conditional transfer monies owed to us while we owe around £8m - £9m and have no more than £7m (probably less) of conditional payment liabilities. There is not another club in the league that has such low figures.

In less straightened, uncertain and unpredictable times it may be legitimate to say that is a sign of weakness, but at the moment it can be viewed as a position of strength. The trauma of the ITV digital years led to our club refusing to commit to significant debt unless it had the monies in place to cover them. I believe this was part of the reason for the growing cash pile (at least initially), of course that cash pile will have proven invaluable in these times and we appear to be the only club (or one of a very small number) that has not taken recourse to lenders or owners to help them deal with operational challenges even before we consider transfers.

Many clubs will be factoring incoming transfer payments if they can, passing the risks to the lenders and bringing the cash flow forward to the here and now. In turn the lenders will pricing the risk into their fees meaning that the cost of such a transaction is likely to be 10% - 15% (occasionally more as the number of such lenders is dwindling) of the transfer balance. Last summer such fees were around 7%. That is a high price, that comes straight off the bottom line.

Meanwhile our club, like all in the Premier League will be factoring the known reductions in central payment incomes to themselves (normally responsible for around 85% of our income and likely to be closer to 90% or more currently as season ticket money should be held in case of the need to refund) in the current and next season (currently around £40m and climbing) and calculating what else they may have to face in terms of rebates to broadcasters and sponsors together with lost matchday and commercial income. At the same time they will be addressing their fixed costs to align with revised income forecasts.
Fantastic post. And whilst I wouldn’t expect the majority of our fans to understand our predicament to that degree, I hope the posters making baseless accusations about our chairman make it past the first sentence.

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Re: BFC TRANSFER NEWS SUMMER/AUTUMN 2020 (MUST CONTAIN LINK)

Post by BertiesBeehole » Tue Oct 06, 2020 2:00 pm

summitclaret wrote:
Tue Oct 06, 2020 1:42 pm
Chester Perry's post just now as usual makes a lot of sense. I just can't understand why we have not made the modest investment to get a decent 3rd choice cb and replacement for Lennon, given JBG and RB's injury records, at least on loan.
Agree but we may have tried. We have no idea really. Once you find those you want or are prices right you then have to see if they’re available, want to move to us and if Dyche think’s they’re the right fit. And that noone else gets them. Before you know it there may only be a few options

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Re: BFC TRANSFER NEWS SUMMER/AUTUMN 2020 (MUST CONTAIN LINK)

Post by Steddyman » Tue Oct 06, 2020 2:03 pm

summitclaret wrote:
Tue Oct 06, 2020 1:42 pm
Chester Perry's post just now as usual makes a lot of sense. I just can't understand why we have not made the modest investment to get a decent 3rd choice cb and replacement for Lennon, given JBG and RB's injury records, at least on loan.
Probably because that modest investment in a couple of players would have costs a few million at least, and another 50k per week. Not a lot in Premier League terms, but would probably be the difference between the club retaining all current non-playing staff, or letting 50+ people go.

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Re: BFC TRANSFER NEWS SUMMER/AUTUMN 2020 (MUST CONTAIN LINK)

Post by superdimitri » Tue Oct 06, 2020 2:09 pm

A few stunning names on the free transfer list. Crazy to see how there careers panned out given their potential!

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Re: BFC TRANSFER NEWS SUMMER/AUTUMN 2020 (MUST CONTAIN LINK)

Post by dpinsussex » Tue Oct 06, 2020 2:23 pm

RattyClaret wrote:
Tue Oct 06, 2020 11:18 am
Free player list

https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/statist ... osespieler
There is a certain Steven Defour on that list 😂😂

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Re: BFC TRANSFER NEWS SUMMER/AUTUMN 2020 (MUST CONTAIN LINK)

Post by Wile E Coyote » Tue Oct 06, 2020 2:24 pm

great analysis from Chester Perry, very impressive summation.

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Re: BFC TRANSFER NEWS SUMMER/AUTUMN 2020 (MUST CONTAIN LINK)

Post by wilks_bfc » Tue Oct 06, 2020 2:26 pm

superdimitri wrote:
Tue Oct 06, 2020 2:09 pm
A few stunning names on the free transfer list. Crazy to see how there careers panned out given their potential!
Didn't realise Mario Götze had been released by Dortmund
That would be a signing and a half

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Re: BFC TRANSFER NEWS SUMMER/AUTUMN 2020 (MUST CONTAIN LINK)

Post by Wokingclaret » Tue Oct 06, 2020 2:33 pm

Rileybobs wrote:
Tue Oct 06, 2020 1:58 pm
Fantastic post. And whilst I wouldn’t expect the majority of our fans to understand our predicament to that degree, I hope the posters making baseless accusations about our chairman make it past the first sentence.
Yes beautifully written, but while Chester Perry is highly qualified it seems, I'd like to hear it from Garlick.
CP does miss out on the now higher risk of relegation we face and the reductions to all areas of the club as a consequence. There was talk of Parachute payments being stopped! Might even be reduced if TV money is withheld

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Re: BFC TRANSFER NEWS SUMMER/AUTUMN 2020 (MUST CONTAIN LINK)

Post by Burnley Ace » Tue Oct 06, 2020 2:43 pm

wilks_bfc wrote:
Tue Oct 06, 2020 2:26 pm
Didn't realise Mario Götze had been released by Dortmund
That would be a signing and a half
Not only is he foreign but he also suffers from myopathy, as far from a Dyche player as you could get!

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Re: BFC TRANSFER NEWS SUMMER/AUTUMN 2020 (MUST CONTAIN LINK)

Post by Chester Perry » Tue Oct 06, 2020 2:46 pm

Wokingclaret wrote:
Tue Oct 06, 2020 2:33 pm
CP does miss out on the now higher risk of relegation we face and the reductions to all areas of the club as a consequence. There was talk of Parachute payments being stopped! Might even be reduced if TV money is withheld
all are real issues of that there is no doubt, similarly I could be accused of being somewhat fatalistic - as I posted above it comes down to the way individuals view things and particularly as to how deeply they are honest with themselves as to what is most important to them, whatever their frustrations are with the distractions around it.

I will also add, that I have repeatedly argued that the club's continued membership at the Top table is significantly more important to the economy of the town than that of the club - Whatever league it operates in the club will always be the socio-cultural heart of the town while it exists

NB I wouldn't say I was qualified. just perhaps more calm, empathetic and possibly more reasoned/considered in thinking and posting
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Re: BFC TRANSFER NEWS SUMMER/AUTUMN 2020 (MUST CONTAIN LINK)

Post by Dark Cloud » Tue Oct 06, 2020 3:01 pm

There's some really interesting names on that list (and I agree with above, not least Stephen Defour) and it makes fascinating reading.

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Re: BFC TRANSFER NEWS SUMMER/AUTUMN 2020 (MUST CONTAIN LINK)

Post by Lancasterclaret » Tue Oct 06, 2020 3:06 pm

Chester Perry wrote:
Tue Oct 06, 2020 2:53 am
That is a scenario that could well occur - what would be more likely to happen should this closed door scenario prolong (especially into further seasons) is that a fair few could end up in administration and reset, with all non football creditors losing out substantially, given the lack of matchday that is likely to be lenders rather than local businesses, though the more that do the more likely football creditors are going to be squeezed - for some clubs that could be the 2nd or 3rd time that administration has happened.

Our board are unlikely to want to take such a course of action - that appeared to be Barry Kilby's thinking post the ITV Digital collapse and the reason that Turf Moor and Gawthorpe were sold, he did not want administration because he knew that it would be local businesses who would suffer at our expense. It is worth remembering that many suppliers to all but the biggest clubs are also sponsors, I like to believe that Barry knew that and wanted to be able to look them in the eye knowing that he had done as much for them as they had done for the club.

There is another issue which is going to come to the fore if the current situation prolongs (and no one really knows when it will end) and that is clubs not being able to service their transfer debt - on Monday @SwissRamble did a long and detailed thread on debt - the scale of transfer debt is huge and has grown significantly this window with many small upfront payments and agreements in place for sizeable scheduled payments. It benefits a selling clubs accounts as they book the full transfer price but does little to help immediate cash flow. It will only take one or two significant clubs to fail to make their scheduled payments to create a sizable domino effect which would have a dramatic impact on cash flow across the game.

It is not a game our board have chosen to play this summer, preferring to strengthen the balance sheet and our future position in regard to both creditors and debtors (our own liabilities). It is also likely to have been why we were so adamant about cash up front in the sale of any of our star assets (I believe like many on here that the board were willing to make such a sale so they could then go out and strengthen the team/squad in the way in which we need, I am less convinced of Sean's willingness for such a plan, particularly when his apparent choice of replacement for Tarks got injured). According to the last published accounts (published after the January transfer window) we should now only have conditional transfer monies owed to us while we owe around £8m - £9m and have no more than £7m (probably less) of conditional payment liabilities. There is not another club in the league that has such low figures.

In less straightened, uncertain and unpredictable times it may be legitimate to say that is a sign of weakness, but at the moment it can be viewed as a position of strength. The trauma of the ITV digital years led to our club refusing to commit to significant debt unless it had the monies in place to cover them. I believe this was part of the reason for the growing cash pile (at least initially), of course that cash pile will have proven invaluable in these times and we appear to be the only club (or one of a very small number) that has not taken recourse to lenders or owners to help them deal with operational challenges even before we consider transfers.

Many clubs will be factoring incoming transfer payments if they can, passing the risks to the lenders and bringing the cash flow forward to the here and now. In turn the lenders will pricing the risk into their fees meaning that the cost of such a transaction is likely to be 10% - 15% (occasionally more as the number of such lenders is dwindling) of the transfer balance. Last summer such fees were around 7%. That is a high price, that comes straight off the bottom line.

Meanwhile our club, like all in the Premier League will be factoring the known reductions in central payment incomes to themselves (normally responsible for around 85% of our income and likely to be closer to 90% or more currently as season ticket money should be held in case of the need to refund) in the current and next season (currently around £40m and climbing) and calculating what else they may have to face in terms of rebates to broadcasters and sponsors together with lost matchday and commercial income. At the same time they will be addressing their fixed costs to align with revised income forecasts.
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Re: BFC TRANSFER NEWS SUMMER/AUTUMN 2020 (MUST CONTAIN LINK)

Post by TVC15 » Tue Oct 06, 2020 3:12 pm

Parachute payments cannot be stopped under the existing TV contracts so that is not a real immediate risk.
Who knows what the next TV deal will bring or how you begin to plan / forecast for this as a football club.

I think the one thing we are all in violent agreement with is that we need some communication and explanation from MG of where we are financially and why we have not been able to strengthen the team. Of course there is only certain things he can or should tell us publicly but there is a lot more he can communicate than he is doing presently which can at the least shed some light on our situation. The club should also have a good idea of the July 2020 year end results and again whilst he cannot share any specific detail he could context these to illustrate the impact of COVID and dispel a few of the myths that we are still sat on a mountain of cash that we are somehow choosing not to spend on new players.

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Re: BFC TRANSFER NEWS SUMMER/AUTUMN 2020 (MUST CONTAIN LINK)

Post by summitclaret » Tue Oct 06, 2020 3:41 pm

Steddyman wrote:
Tue Oct 06, 2020 2:03 pm
Probably because that modest investment in a couple of players would have costs a few million at least, and another 50k per week. Not a lot in Premier League terms, but would probably be the difference between the club retaining all current non-playing staff, or letting 50+ people go.
We have plenty ooc next June e.g. Brady and Long.

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Re: BFC TRANSFER NEWS SUMMER/AUTUMN 2020 (MUST CONTAIN LINK)

Post by Jonny1910 » Tue Oct 06, 2020 3:57 pm

summitclaret wrote:
Tue Oct 06, 2020 1:42 pm
Chester Perry's post just now as usual makes a lot of sense. I just can't understand why we have not made the modest investment to get a decent 3rd choice cb and replacement for Lennon, given JBG and RB's injury records, at least on loan.
Dyche doesn't play loan players anyway so that would be a waste! But I agree these should have been addressed as a minimum

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Re: BFC TRANSFER NEWS SUMMER/AUTUMN 2020 (MUST CONTAIN LINK)

Post by Colburn_Claret » Tue Oct 06, 2020 4:01 pm

BigChaCha wrote:
Tue Oct 06, 2020 10:34 am
We have massively underperformed in the last 3 to 4 transfer windows, even by Burnley standards. Did MG have a crystal ball 4 windows ago?
Do you accept that if we'd spent 20 million in each if the last 4 windows, we would now be 80 million in debt.

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Re: BFC TRANSFER NEWS SUMMER/AUTUMN 2020 (MUST CONTAIN LINK)

Post by Chester Perry » Tue Oct 06, 2020 4:06 pm

Colburn_Claret wrote:
Tue Oct 06, 2020 4:01 pm
Do you accept that if we'd spent 20 million in each if the last 4 windows, we would now be 80 million in debt.
I wouldn't necessarily say that Colburn but we may have had to sell a key player or 2 to balance the books, and from my observations that is something that Sean has been steadfastly opposed to in the last couple of years

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Re: BFC TRANSFER NEWS SUMMER/AUTUMN 2020 (MUST CONTAIN LINK)

Post by durhamclaret » Tue Oct 06, 2020 4:22 pm

dpinsussex wrote:
Tue Oct 06, 2020 2:23 pm
There is a certain Steven Defour on that list 😂😂
So is Dean Marney!

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Re: BFC TRANSFER NEWS SUMMER/AUTUMN 2020 (MUST CONTAIN LINK)

Post by Colburn_Claret » Tue Oct 06, 2020 4:31 pm

Chester Perry wrote:
Tue Oct 06, 2020 4:06 pm
I wouldn't necessarily say that Colburn but we may have had to sell a key player or 2 to balance the books, and from my observations that is something that Sean has been steadfastly opposed to in the last couple of years
I agree completely.
Your post expressed my feelings perfect, but in a far more lucid way than I could. Even the nay sayers seem to accept your reasoning that it isn't all MGs fault.
I'm unfortunately seen as just a happy clapper :D
Last edited by Colburn_Claret on Tue Oct 06, 2020 4:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: BFC TRANSFER NEWS SUMMER/AUTUMN 2020 (MUST CONTAIN LINK)

Post by claretblue » Tue Oct 06, 2020 4:31 pm

10 free agents your club could still sign after transfer deadline day:

no Steven Defour...not considered top 10! :?

https://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football ... e-22801143

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Re: BFC TRANSFER NEWS SUMMER/AUTUMN 2020 (MUST CONTAIN LINK)

Post by Chester Perry » Tue Oct 06, 2020 4:52 pm

Colburn_Claret wrote:
Tue Oct 06, 2020 4:31 pm
I agree completely.
Your post expressed my feelings perfect, but in a far more lucid way than I could. Even the nay sayers seem to accept your reasoning that it isn't all MGs fault.
I'm unfortunately seen as just a happy clapper :D
I am sure there are plenty who see me in a similar light and there are plenty that have chosen to up sticks and go and post on the other threads to complain since my post
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