How about an Automated offside system...

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GodIsADeeJay81
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How about an Automated offside system...

Post by GodIsADeeJay81 » Thu Apr 08, 2021 10:59 am


basil6345789
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Re: How about an Automated offside system...

Post by basil6345789 » Thu Apr 08, 2021 11:02 am

It's gone crazy - just go back to the original offside rules of 30 years or so ago.

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Re: How about an Automated offside system...

Post by ClaretTony » Thu Apr 08, 2021 11:25 am

I read this yesterday - I think Wenger is just looking for something to justify his position at FIFA

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Re: How about an Automated offside system...

Post by Claretforever » Thu Apr 08, 2021 11:28 am

If it’s immediate then I don’t mind it. What I can’t stand is the dilution of the atmosphere, the reduced celebration because you’re waiting for VAR. If it’s as quick and accurate as goal line technology then that’ll be fine.

For me VAR should be for penalty shouts and straight red card offences only, and should perhaps come from a request by a Manager who has 2 calls per match, which he retains if his call is upheld, but loses them if he’s wrong.

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Re: How about an Automated offside system...

Post by PaintYorkClaretnBlue » Thu Apr 08, 2021 11:46 am

In theory it’s a great idea if it is immediate, in practice how will it decide if a player is interfering with play?

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Re: How about an Automated offside system...

Post by NottsClaret » Thu Apr 08, 2021 12:11 pm

PaintYorkClaretnBlue wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 11:46 am
In theory it’s a great idea if it is immediate, in practice how will it decide if a player is interfering with play?
Good point. Let's hope Wenger has thought about that one.

They're just digging deeper and deeper rather than admit VAR is a load of s***e.
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Re: How about an Automated offside system...

Post by kaptin1 » Thu Apr 08, 2021 12:31 pm

I have often wondered whether it would be possible to have a sensor in the ball and sensors on the players which could be linked by software and used to determine whether a player is offside. Problems would be 1) having sensors robust enough to withstand the rigours of a game, particularly those inside the ball, 2) deciding exactly where the sensors should be placed on the player given offside decisions are being judged by toes and armpits these days (maybe you could just say centre of chest, albeit that would then give an advantage to the attacking player and also players with longer limbs ... which is maybe not a bad thing), 3) what happens when the ball goes out of play and a different one is used to keep the game flowing (someone would need t9 manually monitor this and make sure the right ball is switched on) and 4) what if a player is in an offside position but is deemed not to be interfering with play (this still requires judgement albeit you could build in some additional parameters to help). Ultimately, it does seem to be a rule that is well suited to automated decision making, but it’s far from being as simple as goal line technology (which has also been shown to have flaws, as per last season’s Villa v Sheff U match).

aggi
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Re: How about an Automated offside system...

Post by aggi » Thu Apr 08, 2021 2:18 pm

Offside is, in 99% of decisions, an objective decision which should be ripe for automation and instantaneous decisions.

The difficulty will come with the did the defender actually flick that on, was that played intentionally, was he interfering with play, etc decisions. Although pretty often they ended in a decision between the linesman and ref so that shouldn't be much different.

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Re: How about an Automated offside system...

Post by dibraidio » Thu Apr 08, 2021 2:45 pm

Put a sensor in the shin pad of every player and you can triangulate their positions precisely.
Then you need to know when the ball is kicked and who by.
If you have two clickers one for each team and somebody presses the button each time the ball goes forward you could have an instant capture of everyone's position and have a signal sent to the officials instantly if someone is offside.
Personally I've never been a fan of the interfering with play rule. If he's not interfering with play what's he doing on the pitch.
A system like that would be semi-automatic because you'd still be dependent on the clicker being pressed at exactly the right moment but it would eliminate the "Can we celebrate this or is it going to be ruled out by VAR?" nonsense.

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Re: How about an Automated offside system...

Post by dsr » Thu Apr 08, 2021 3:24 pm

dibraidio wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 2:45 pm
Put a sensor in the shin pad of every player and you can triangulate their positions precisely.
Then you need to know when the ball is kicked and who by.
If you have two clickers one for each team and somebody presses the button each time the ball goes forward you could have an instant capture of everyone's position and have a signal sent to the officials instantly if someone is offside.
Personally I've never been a fan of the interfering with play rule. If he's not interfering with play what's he doing on the pitch.
A system like that would be semi-automatic because you'd still be dependent on the clicker being pressed at exactly the right moment but it would eliminate the "Can we celebrate this or is it going to be ruled out by VAR?" nonsense.
I've never felt it important to disallow goals simply because the winger crossed it from the goalline and hadn't got back upfield before the forward banged it in. But each to his own.

One problem is where to put the sensors. If it's in shin pads, then there is potential for weird decisions where the forward (by eye) is 99% behind the defender but one foot forward is level with the defender's foot, and the shin pad marker puts him half an inch off even though to normal viewing he is clearly behind or level.

How about two sensors, one on the chest and one on the back. The forward is only offside if both sensors are in front of both the defender's sensors. That way, "level" is given a bit of leeway.

If the system is to be semi-automatic, the offside official's TV could have a constant marker of which players are in an offside position (something obvious like one of those Match of the Day circles); he can give offside if his judgement says the man who was lit up, was interfering. In cases of doubt, instant replay and freeze frame could settle it in seconds.

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Re: How about an Automated offside system...

Post by Ashingtonclaret46 » Thu Apr 08, 2021 3:47 pm

It will definitely make the game much more interesting and I just can't wait for the World Cup in Qatar with all this excitement to look forward to.
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Re: How about an Automated offside system...

Post by jsclaret » Thu Apr 08, 2021 4:16 pm

Don't players have GPS trackers on the backs to provide their running stats? Surely these could be linked.
So at the time the ball is kicked the location of every player would be known. Obviously some adjustment would have to be made to allow for the fact that a defender would be going forward and a defender coming out of defence, say 0.5 metres. The decision would then have nothing to do with the position of any other part of the body and could be made instantaneously rather than drawing lines across the pitch!

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Re: How about an Automated offside system...

Post by dibraidio » Thu Apr 08, 2021 4:30 pm

jsclaret wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 4:16 pm
Don't players have GPS trackers on the backs to provide their running stats? Surely these could be linked.
So at the time the ball is kicked the location of every player would be known. Obviously some adjustment would have to be made to allow for the fact that a defender would be going forward and a defender coming out of defence, say 0.5 metres. The decision would then have nothing to do with the position of any other part of the body and could be made instantaneously rather than drawing lines across the pitch!
If the gps tracker is on their back then the defenders will still be behind the attackers if they are level but not facing the same way. Currently in that situation the attacker needs to be even further back so that his toes aren't off side.

I don't think it really matters what the measure is as long as it is accurate, consistent and close to instant. The closer it is to a lino looking down the line the better because the rule needs to be as close as possible in non elite football.

dsr's idea of having a screen that shows players who are "offside" in real time is an interesting one. That could easily be followed by the VAR official.

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Re: How about an Automated offside system...

Post by jsclaret » Thu Apr 08, 2021 7:01 pm

dibraidio wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 4:30 pm
If the gps tracker is on their back then the defenders will still be behind the attackers if they are level but not facing the same way. Currently in that situation the attacker needs to be even further back so that his toes aren't off side.

I don't think it really matters what the measure is as long as it is accurate, consistent and close to instant. The closer it is to a lino looking down the line the better because the rule needs to be as close as possible in non elite football.

dsr's idea of having a screen that shows players who are "offside" in real time is an interesting one. That could easily be followed by the VAR official.
Hence my suggestion that if you used the GPS you would have to make an allowance for having the GPS on each players back. GPS would be accurate and quick and whether a toe was offside wouldn't matter. Obviously it would need a change in the rules.

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Re: How about an Automated offside system...

Post by DCWat » Thu Apr 08, 2021 7:19 pm

dibraidio wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 2:45 pm
Put a sensor in the shin pad of every player and you can triangulate their positions precisely.
Then you need to know when the ball is kicked and who by.
If you have two clickers one for each team and somebody presses the button each time the ball goes forward you could have an instant capture of everyone's position and have a signal sent to the officials instantly if someone is offside.
Personally I've never been a fan of the interfering with play rule. If he's not interfering with play what's he doing on the pitch.
A system like that would be semi-automatic because you'd still be dependent on the clicker being pressed at exactly the right moment but it would eliminate the "Can we celebrate this or is it going to be ruled out by VAR?" nonsense.
Am I understanding you right, a semi-automated system whereby a person is required to press a clicker every time a player from one team plays a forward pass?

Does this require a second person with clicker number two for the other team, or will one person be responsible for both clickers?

They’d be at it like some mad castanet player.

If each player is wearing technology to identify their position and the ball is fitted with technology, there should be no need for human interference until the decision is announced.

Sensors on players and within the ball could work together to determine which player touched the ball and which direction it travelled. This, alongside accurate positioning of every player on the pitch at the point of impact could quite easily return an almost immediate notification.

I think we’re well passed the days of needing a manual clicker when we’re talking automated technologies.

Saying all that, I wish they’d just scrap the lot and take us back to a referee and his / her two assistants.

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Re: How about an Automated offside system...

Post by Rileybobs » Thu Apr 08, 2021 7:24 pm

Has anyone seen the latest FIFA? The graphics are fantastic. I’d be wholeheartedly in favour of simulating all matches on it. This would remove all human error and really streamline the ridiculously implemented offside law.

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Re: How about an Automated offside system...

Post by Jakubclaret » Thu Apr 08, 2021 8:28 pm

jsclaret wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 7:01 pm
Hence my suggestion that if you used the GPS you would have to make an allowance for having the GPS on each players back. GPS would be accurate and quick and whether a toe was offside wouldn't matter. Obviously it would need a change in the rules.
A set system should be well established & implemented by now where it’s not decided upon such a small target such as toe, you include the full limb appendage as a bigger target & completely obliterate any controversy, you could even just do anything from the kneecap down half a leg, why complicate things which don’t need complicating, you make the rules universal & easy to understand & more chance of the rules being followed correctly without mistakes.

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Re: How about an Automated offside system...

Post by elwaclaret » Thu Apr 08, 2021 9:07 pm

They will keep tinkering until only statisticians and accountants can follow it and someone realises the players and ball are no longer needed for the stat analyst and the billionaires owners to make money.

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Re: How about an Automated offside system...

Post by Transpennine » Thu Apr 08, 2021 10:51 pm

Let's all sack it off. Remove any human element and watch E-Fifa-Footy-Soccer or whatever its called. It'll be dull as ditch water but we'll all be happy in our boredom knowing the decisions were all correct.

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Re: How about an Automated offside system...

Post by dsr » Thu Apr 08, 2021 11:13 pm

DCWat wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 7:19 pm
Am I understanding you right, a semi-automated system whereby a person is required to press a clicker every time a player from one team plays a forward pass?

...

Sensors on players and within the ball could work together to determine which player touched the ball and which direction it travelled.
There is nothing in the rules about which way the ball is travelling, to be offside.

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Re: How about an Automated offside system...

Post by Ashingtonclaret46 » Fri Apr 09, 2021 10:03 am

dsr wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 11:13 pm
There is nothing in the rules about which way the ball is travelling, to be offside.
Don't bring that to the attention of David Elleray and IFAB ---they can soon change that!

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Re: How about an Automated offside system...

Post by dibraidio » Fri Apr 09, 2021 11:21 am

DCWat wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 7:19 pm
Am I understanding you right, a semi-automated system whereby a person is required to press a clicker every time a player from one team plays a forward pass?

Does this require a second person with clicker number two for the other team, or will one person be responsible for both clickers?

They’d be at it like some mad castanet player.

If each player is wearing technology to identify their position and the ball is fitted with technology, there should be no need for human interference until the decision is announced.

Sensors on players and within the ball could work together to determine which player touched the ball and which direction it travelled. This, alongside accurate positioning of every player on the pitch at the point of impact could quite easily return an almost immediate notification.

I think we’re well passed the days of needing a manual clicker when we’re talking automated technologies.

Saying all that, I wish they’d just scrap the lot and take us back to a referee and his / her two assistants.
I don't know if you saw the AI guided camera at the recent u18 cup game against Wimbledon, it was dreadful, it was programmed to follow the movement of the play but it was enough to give you travel sickness.
At this moment in time I don't think that AI is capable of picking up who touched the ball, who is interfering with play, who the ball may have brushed against or deflected off, that's why I suggested a human hand to trigger a decision point. Manchester City average a pass every 8 seconds. I reckon your average night club doorman clicks more often than that. Besides which there are plenty of passes where there'd be no need to verify like for example if David Jones was on the ball. :D

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