Youth
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Youth
First post in many years. Had to create new login!
I really think it’s time to give some youngsters a go. Other teams in the Prem are and there’s little point signing so many and not giving them a chance. The general consensus is that so many of our squad are past it (Cork and Barnes in particular). May as well have a couple of youngsters on the bench to throw in and give them a chance. Just look at Collins once given his chance (yes I know he has experience). Dwight was forced on Sean a few seasons ago also and look at him.
I hear great things about Richardson. Give the lad a go. It can’t be any worse than continuing to do the same thing over and over with the same old players expecting something different to happen.
I really think it’s time to give some youngsters a go. Other teams in the Prem are and there’s little point signing so many and not giving them a chance. The general consensus is that so many of our squad are past it (Cork and Barnes in particular). May as well have a couple of youngsters on the bench to throw in and give them a chance. Just look at Collins once given his chance (yes I know he has experience). Dwight was forced on Sean a few seasons ago also and look at him.
I hear great things about Richardson. Give the lad a go. It can’t be any worse than continuing to do the same thing over and over with the same old players expecting something different to happen.
Re: Youth
Unfortunately Lewis is out injured.Newchurch Claret wrote: ↑Sun Oct 24, 2021 9:20 amFirst post in many years. Had to create new login!
I really think it’s time to give some youngsters a go. Other teams in the Prem are and there’s little point signing so many and not giving them a chance. The general consensus is that so many of our squad are past it (Cork and Barnes in particular). May as well have a couple of youngsters on the bench to throw in and give them a chance. Just look at Collins once given his chance (yes I know he has experience). Dwight was forced on Sean a few seasons ago also and look at him.
I hear great things about Richardson. Give the lad a go. It can’t be any worse than continuing to do the same thing over and over with the same old players expecting something different to happen.
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Re: Youth
Makes you wonder doesn’t it, that if we hadn’t had the injuries we had to our midfielders that we did, would we actually have Dwight anywhere near the starting eleven even now?
As much as I love SD, and what he’s achieved, even his family members would have to admit his most successful changes on the playing side have been forced upon him…. So I’d suggest we won’t be seeing any of the youngsters being blooded anytime soon.
As much as I love SD, and what he’s achieved, even his family members would have to admit his most successful changes on the playing side have been forced upon him…. So I’d suggest we won’t be seeing any of the youngsters being blooded anytime soon.
Re: Youth
Picking up on the Lewis Richardson suggestion. He's got potential but don't think he's ready yet, but. I do think he could learn a lot from Cornet on positional awareness and improve his all round game even more. There's a very good player in the making there and due to some of his attributes I think he could benefit from some of Cornet's game. Awareness, when to drop, when to hold, when to make a run, find space etc.
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Re: Youth
BenWickes wrote: ↑Sun Oct 24, 2021 10:55 amPicking up on the Lewis Richardson suggestion. He's got potential but don't think he's ready yet, but. I do think he could learn a lot from Cornet on positional awareness and improve his all round game even more. There's a very good player in the making there and due to some of his attributes I think he could benefit from some of Cornet's game. Awareness, when to drop, when to hold, when to make a run, find space etc.
You are most likely right,
So the question is why are youth players from most other clubs in the PL "ready" sooner than ours?
I'll use Bobby Thomas as an example, a very promising young defender but a year older than Nathan Collins.
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Re: Youth
Because most other PL clubs have better and more established academies than ours.boatshed bill wrote: ↑Sun Oct 24, 2021 11:29 amYou are most likely right,
So the question is why are youth players from most other clubs in the PL "ready" sooner than ours?
I'll use Bobby Thomas as an example, a very promising young defender but a year older than Nathan Collins.
Re: Youth
At a guess because we've been playing catch up after previous incumbents ran our youth system into the ground. We're a bit behind the curve in terms of attracting talented youngsters and to a degree will still be getting cast offs or players not deemed good enough for the likes of Utd, Liverpool etc.boatshed bill wrote: ↑Sun Oct 24, 2021 11:29 amYou are most likely right,
So the question is why are youth players from most other clubs in the PL "ready" sooner than ours?
I'll use Bobby Thomas as an example, a very promising young defender but a year older than Nathan Collins.
We've only improved our academy status to the desired level in the past couple of years. It will take time.
There are certainly promising signs though at those levels. You mention Collins but even Stoke City had a better established network, academy etc than ours until relatively recently.
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Re: Youth
Better established academies, no doubt.
However, plenty of our youth/development squads are products of other clubs' academies.
However, plenty of our youth/development squads are products of other clubs' academies.
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Re: Youth
Yes, and we've had to do that because ours had been run into the ground and was in such a state that it was close to being shut down altogether. It takes time to move things forward. They are moving forward but we don't have an academy full of Dwight McNeils I'm afraid.boatshed bill wrote: ↑Sun Oct 24, 2021 11:47 amBetter established academies, no doubt.
However, plenty of our youth/development squads are products of other clubs' academies.
We had a 21 year old and a 20 year old in the team yesterday. One of them is established, the other has come in to the team when we could easily have played the more experienced Kevin Long. I am certain that young players will be given the opportunity if they prove to be good enough.
The OP refers to Richardson who, we are led to believe, is a long term absentee. I'm not sure he's ready yet but I've not seen anything to suggest anyone else is.
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Re: Youth
Nathan Collins is a better player than Kevin Long. No doubt.ClaretTony wrote: ↑Sun Oct 24, 2021 12:00 pmYes, and we've had to do that because ours had been run into the ground and was in such a state that it was close to being shut down altogether. It takes time to move things forward. They are moving forward but we don't have an academy full of Dwight McNeils I'm afraid.
We had a 21 year old and a 20 year old in the team yesterday. One of them is established, the other has come in to the team when we could easily have played the more experienced Kevin Long. I am certain that young players will be given the opportunity if they prove to be good enough.
The OP refers to Richardson who, we are led to believe, is a long term absentee. I'm not sure he's ready yet but I've not seen anything to suggest anyone else is.
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Re: Youth
You've missed my point entirelyboatshed bill wrote: ↑Sun Oct 24, 2021 12:03 pmNathan Collins is a better player than Kevin Long. No doubt.
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Re: Youth
Why would the manager choose Long over Collins? Age in this case is almost irrelevant.
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Re: Youth
You really have missed my point entirelyboatshed bill wrote: ↑Sun Oct 24, 2021 12:36 pmWhy would the manager choose Long over Collins? Age in this case is almost irrelevant.
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Re: Youth
What I was trying to suggest was that the options on the bench now offer little or nothing, particularly forward options. That being the case, why not throw a youngster in? Last 10 mins. Chasing a game. You never know, whereas, with Barnes, JayRod etc, you know exactly what you’ll get.
I suspect therein lies the answer. Sean prefers what he knows, even if that is not going to add anything different.
Stumbling upon Cornet as a 2nd striker is a classic case in point. No way in hell was he signed to play there, but he’s not disciplined enough for the system so give him a go up top. All I’m asking is that we do the same with some youngsters as I’m completely fed up with seeing 5 minite Vydra and JarRod cameos that achieve nothing.
I suspect therein lies the answer. Sean prefers what he knows, even if that is not going to add anything different.
Stumbling upon Cornet as a 2nd striker is a classic case in point. No way in hell was he signed to play there, but he’s not disciplined enough for the system so give him a go up top. All I’m asking is that we do the same with some youngsters as I’m completely fed up with seeing 5 minite Vydra and JarRod cameos that achieve nothing.
Re: Youth
".....the other has come in to the team when we could easily have played the more experienced Kevin Long."
I think Tony's point is fairly clear. He's stating the fact that SD has chosen ability irrespective of age.
I think Tony's point is fairly clear. He's stating the fact that SD has chosen ability irrespective of age.
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Re: Youth
Which players would you suggest? Who do you think is up to being on the bench and coming on? Other than Richardson, who is injured, you haven't named anyone and you can't just pluck someone out of the system who isn't ready.Newchurch Claret wrote: ↑Sun Oct 24, 2021 1:13 pmWhat I was trying to suggest was that the options on the bench now offer little or nothing, particularly forward options. That being the case, why not throw a youngster in? Last 10 mins. Chasing a game. You never know, whereas, with Barnes, JayRod etc, you know exactly what you’ll get.
I suspect therein lies the answer. Sean prefers what he knows, even if that is not going to add anything different.
Stumbling upon Cornet as a 2nd striker is a classic case in point. No way in hell was he signed to play there, but he’s not disciplined enough for the system so give him a go up top. All I’m asking is that we do the same with some youngsters as I’m completely fed up with seeing 5 minite Vydra and JarRod cameos that achieve nothing.
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Re: Youth
ClaretTony wrote: ↑Sun Oct 24, 2021 12:00 pmYes, and we've had to do that because ours had been run into the ground and was in such a state that it was close to being shut down altogether. It takes time to move things forward. They are moving forward but we don't have an academy full of Dwight McNeils I'm afraid.
We had a 21 year old and a 20 year old in the team yesterday. One of them is established, the other has come in to the team when we could easily have played the more experienced Kevin Long. I am certain that young players will be given the opportunity if they prove to be good enough.
The OP refers to Richardson who, we are led to believe, is a long term absentee. I'm not sure he's ready yet but I've not seen anything to suggest anyone else is.
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Re: Youth
Totally agree with everything you have said CT i''ve watched the u23 a few times on feeds and none are anywhere near ready for the 1st team, we talk about these young players yet when some leave and they drop from our u23s to below conference level very quickly, we have some good lads Glennon looks a good lad so does Helm but they are not ready for the 1st team, as regard to Richardson if he's not fit you can't even include him in the squad at present.
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Re: Youth
Which players would you suggest? Who do you think is up to being on the bench and coming on? Other than Richardson, who is injured, you haven't named anyone and you can't just pluck someone out of the system who isn't ready.ClaretTony wrote: ↑Sun Oct 24, 2021 1:30 pm[quote="Newchurch Claret" post_id=<a href="tel:1665563">1665563</a> time=<a href="tel:1635077598">1635077598</a> user_id=7156]
What I was trying to suggest was that the options on the bench now offer little or nothing, particularly forward options. That being the case, why not throw a youngster in? Last 10 mins. Chasing a game. You never know, whereas, with Barnes, JayRod etc, you know exactly what you’ll get.
I suspect therein lies the answer. Sean prefers what he knows, even if that is not going to add anything different.
Stumbling upon Cornet as a 2nd striker is a classic case in point. No way in hell was he signed to play there, but he’s not disciplined enough for the system so give him a go up top. All I’m asking is that we do the same with some youngsters as I’m completely fed up with seeing 5 minite Vydra and JarRod cameos that achieve nothing.
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Tony, my point is that you never know. We know what Barnes and 5 mins of Vydra does. Nothing. I’m looking for and suggesting something different. You can’t just keep doing the same thing over and over and expect change. Try something different and see what happens. It can’t be any worse than what we’ve done so far this season.
Re: Youth
By that logic you might as well drag someone off the street to sit on the bench, as you never know what they can do.Newchurch Claret wrote: ↑Sun Oct 24, 2021 2:41 pmTony, my point is that you never know. We know what Barnes and 5 mins of Vydra does. Nothing. I’m looking for and suggesting something different. You can’t just keep doing the same thing over and over and expect change. Try something different and see what happens. It can’t be any worse than what we’ve done so far this season.
I would think that the management team do know the capablilities of the young players at their disposal.
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Re: Youth
I'm fairly sure that Harker is injured, Mancini is not playing for the U23s so he could be injured too.
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Re: Youth
Whilst I tend to agree with the sentiment behind the op, I guess the harsh truth is that Dwight aside, we haven't had anyone in the academy set up who has shown enough to displace a regular pick and hold a place down. Because we're in the Prem the standard is so much higher and the stakes for failure are so much higher and that in itself makes it more difficult to find youth players of the required first team standard or give a "maybe" 7 or 8 games to see if he can step up. Giving any young player ago is a gamble which SD must feel is a gamble too far for the most part and I guess that's a shame, even though I understand it. It's a fact of life unfortunately when the cost to the club of failing at this level is so enormously high. Benson got a bit of a go, but Dyche quickly decided he was good, but not good enough and moved him on and if he was the pick of the up and comings that tells us that right now, nobody is good enough. Hopefully, that will change in the very near future.
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Re: Youth
Both injured - Harker got his injury v Sunderland on 23rd August, was still walking very badly when I last saw him.boatshed bill wrote: ↑Sun Oct 24, 2021 3:18 pmI'm fairly sure that Harker is injured, Mancini is not playing for the U23s so he could be injured too.
But I'm astounded at people thinking some of these players are ready to step up. Those calling for the likes of Harker & Mancini, how many times have you seen them play to even suggest it?
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Re: Youth
I have no idea why you are answering this as though I posted the suggestion, which I have to say I do not agree with.ClaretTony wrote: ↑Sun Oct 24, 2021 7:20 pmBoth injured - Harker got his injury v Sunderland on 23rd August, was still walking very badly when I last saw him.
But I'm astounded at people thinking some of these players are ready to step up. Those calling for the likes of Harker & Mancini, how many times have you seen them play to even suggest it?
Have you some kind of agenda here?
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Re: Youth
Sorry, quoted you just to confirm your comment on the two being injured. It does look as though I was aiming the rest of the post at you but it wasn't the case.boatshed bill wrote: ↑Sun Oct 24, 2021 7:29 pmI have no idea why you are answering this as though I posted the suggestion, which I have to say I do not agree with.
Have you some kind of agenda here?
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Re: Youth
Thanks for that.ClaretTony wrote: ↑Sun Oct 24, 2021 7:44 pmSorry, quoted you just to confirm your comment on the two being injured. It does look as though I was aiming the rest of the post at you but it wasn't the case.
Incidentally, I believe that we were in broad agreement regarding the Collins over Long selection.
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Re: Youth
Is it fair to say we average a regular first teamer from the youth set up around once every ten years?
It's hardly a controversial point to say we need to do better.
It's hardly a controversial point to say we need to do better.
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Re: Youth
That's better than Chelsea used to be until recentlyfidelcastro wrote: ↑Sun Oct 24, 2021 7:50 pmIs it fair to say we average a regular first teamer from the youth set up around once every ten years?
It's hardly a controversial point to say we need to do better.
Re: Youth
Our youth set-up is much improved but of course there will be a natural time lag before we hopefully see the benefit.fidelcastro wrote: ↑Sun Oct 24, 2021 7:50 pmIs it fair to say we average a regular first teamer from the youth set up around once every ten years?
It's hardly a controversial point to say we need to do better.
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Re: Youth
That's true, but they didn't care.GodIsADeeJay81 wrote: ↑Sun Oct 24, 2021 7:52 pmThat's better than Chelsea used to be until recently
Clubs like us need youngsters breaking through.
Re: Youth
What is your point? I don't need to see anymore of Barnes and Rodriguez, I've seen enough to know they're useless. At least a young lad with 5-10 minutes off the bench might run around a bit.Local cricketer wrote: ↑Sun Oct 24, 2021 7:50 pmThe same Harker that was prolific in the national league? 4 steps below the level we play at
Re: Youth
Why can't you stick to reasonable points rather than diarrhoea like this.
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Re: Youth
Surely at some point we have to give these lads a go. Currently the first teamers aren’t doing it.
Maybe time to give Helm a go at CM
Maybe time to give Helm a go at CM
Re: Youth
It's an absolute joke to suggest that Harker is now better than them. You can make some good points and then you come out with shite like this.
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Re: Youth
Those of us who watch the U23s will state that there isn't much there that could play PL football right now.
Some of the better ones are actually about 18 years old.
The argument (if you want to call it that) for including any from the development squad at the higher level is that it shows there is a pathway to the first team from our academy. This could encourage some of the better ones to push on (IMO, of course)
Some of the better ones are actually about 18 years old.
The argument (if you want to call it that) for including any from the development squad at the higher level is that it shows there is a pathway to the first team from our academy. This could encourage some of the better ones to push on (IMO, of course)
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Re: Youth
I agree Tony, and anyone who has watched the 3 or 4 feeds from the u23s games or gone to watch will agree, strength wise some are not there yet, and putting youngsters into a struggling side can do them more harm than good, im all for young players id like to see the whole team all under 30 id also like to see when fit Richardson on the bench instead of Lennon, but it takes time if they are good enough they will come through in their own time if they are not up to it they will move on to the likes of Curzon Ashton etc which is still very good football. One player we let go was Ron Flowers grandson i think it was, Tony will correct me if im wrong Harry Flowers, he left and ended up at my local club Brackley Town from the National League North he couldn't get into the side, that's the come down many face very quickly, look at Jimmy Dunne had his chance a few times wasn't quite up to it at the time, even Josh Benson who i would have kept, we have to accept we are not going to churn Dwight McNeils out every season until as has been said we can attract better younger players which will always be difficult with the likes of City, United, Liverpool etc getting 1st pick some get released and through the net in the likes of McNeil & Richardson and hopefully a few more, but currently i don't see anyone in our u23s who is anywhere near banging on the 1st team door.ClaretTony wrote: ↑Sun Oct 24, 2021 7:20 pmBoth injured - Harker got his injury v Sunderland on 23rd August, was still walking very badly when I last saw him.
But I'm astounded at people thinking some of these players are ready to step up. Those calling for the likes of Harker & Mancini, how many times have you seen them play to even suggest it?
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Re: Youth
No but I think it’s fair to say you have no understanding of our academy.fidelcastro wrote: ↑Sun Oct 24, 2021 7:50 pmIs it fair to say we average a regular first teamer from the youth set up around once every ten years?
It's hardly a controversial point to say we need to do better.
Re: Youth
I'm confused by your use of the word prolific, 7 games 0 goals for Hartlepool in 19/20, 1 goal in 11 for the U23s last season.Local cricketer wrote: ↑Sun Oct 24, 2021 7:50 pmThe same Harker that was prolific in the national league? 4 steps below the level we play at
I think Jay Rod's 4 goals against Rochdale might go some way to explaining why SD would pick him before considering any of the youngsters.
Re: Youth
We ARE catching up but we have a long way to go still. Our U18s drew 1-1 away to Arsenal in a cup match last week. It was fairly close to their usual line-up that are third in the PL U18 South Division. We have stepped up enormously in just five years or so. But it takes time. A lot of time.
Re: Youth
We very clearly need to do better and it’s obvious to everyone the club realise this, hence the hard work and money that’s gone into the academy over the last few years. It will take time.fidelcastro wrote: ↑Sun Oct 24, 2021 7:50 pmIs it fair to say we average a regular first teamer from the youth set up around once every ten years?
It's hardly a controversial point to say we need to do better.
Your point was of course a valid one, though.
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Re: Youth
Thanks and I agree.
It's good to know that people can respond without being arsey for the sake of it.
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Re: Youth
You are so right, and i think we even beat United u18s the other week and should we get 1 player to make it the 1st team from this group then we will have done bloody well.ecc wrote: ↑Sun Oct 24, 2021 9:11 pmWe ARE catching up but we have a long way to go still. Our U18s drew 1-1 away to Arsenal in a cup match last week. It was fairly close to their usual line-up that are third in the PL U18 South Division. We have stepped up enormously in just five years or so. But it takes time. A lot of time.
Re: Youth
We tried that with Benson and Mumbongo but that wasn't too successful was it!
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Re: Youth
Exactly my point. It was a sarcastic commentdibraidio wrote: ↑Sun Oct 24, 2021 9:01 pmI'm confused by your use of the word prolific, 7 games 0 goals for Hartlepool in 19/20, 1 goal in 11 for the U23s last season.
I think Jay Rod's 4 goals against Rochdale might go some way to explaining why SD would pick him before considering any of the youngsters.
Re: Youth
Fair point, I didn't mean Harker is better just a young kid off the bench may offer a bit more energy/rawness than what we've seen from Barnes/Rodriguez off the bench lately. I've seen Harker play twice, I'm certainly not in a position to be making wild claims that he's a PL ready striker, just I'd like to see anything but the standard Rodriguez/Barnes performance.
Re: Youth
You're not wrong, this whole relegation thing with uncertain future finances is getting to me, it's not fun seeing my team unable to win, I know I know it was worse under Cotterill but I don't take much happiness from either run. It's brutal and football isn't any fun when your side can't win for toffee. I'm hoping for change and I just don't see it with Rodriguez/Barnes, hence the cry for anything but (regardless of how wild it may be).
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