Football's Magic Money Tree

This Forum is the main messageboard to discuss all things Claret and Blue and beyond
RVclaret
Posts: 13836
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 8:30 am
Been Liked: 3707 times
Has Liked: 2499 times

Re: Football's Magic Money Tree

Post by RVclaret » Wed Aug 24, 2022 2:43 pm

Chester Perry wrote:
Wed Aug 24, 2022 2:25 pm
When reading the opening section of this piece some may see comparisons even hope for our club - they would be wrong, this is a very different kind of story even if (and we have to hope so) our club has similar on - pitch fortunes

The first of a two-parter from Dominic Fifield in The Athletic - link to an archive copy to by pass the paywall

Inside a football club – part one: Rising from the ashes
https://archive.ph/oNKkt

though if you can afford it I would recommend a subscription

https://theathletic.com/3526081/2022/08 ... ball-club/
Intriguing read and definitely some parallels to draw from it

Dingo
Posts: 85
Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2022 12:02 pm
Been Liked: 30 times
Has Liked: 20 times

Re: Football's Magic Money Tree

Post by Dingo » Thu Aug 25, 2022 9:00 am

I've just started reading this book that came out the other week - Ostrageous: How Greed and Crime Erode Professional Football and We All Look the Other Way - https://www.boomdenhaag.nl/en/webshop/o ... -other-way - The author analyses opportunities for financial crimes, specifically money laundering and tax frauds, within professional football, and systemic vulnerabilities within club financing and ownership regimes in particular. I'm only a chapter in so can report back in future, but some recurring themes in the book in line with the posts above.

Chester Perry
Posts: 19167
Joined: Thu Jun 02, 2016 11:06 am
Been Liked: 3114 times
Has Liked: 481 times

Re: Football's Magic Money Tree

Post by Chester Perry » Thu Aug 25, 2022 12:58 pm

Chester Perry wrote:
Wed Aug 24, 2022 2:25 pm
When reading the opening section of this piece some may see comparisons even hope for our club - they would be wrong, this is a very different kind of story even if (and we have to hope so) our club has similar on - pitch fortunes

The first of a two-parter from Dominic Fifield in The Athletic - link to an archive copy to by pass the paywall

Inside a football club – part one: Rising from the ashes
https://archive.ph/oNKkt

though if you can afford it I would recommend a subscription

https://theathletic.com/3526081/2022/08 ... ball-club/
Second part of this from Dominic Fifield in The Athletic today - still not sure what construes extreme data given all the myriad of examples we continually see for this across football, most just need to understand that it's extensive use is widespread in the game, which is no surprise given the profiles of the ownership groups. It is how they are used to working.

as ever link to an archive copy so no paywall issues

Inside a football club – part two: Transfers with data, the extreme version
https://theathletic.com/3526088/2022/08 ... -toulouse/

Chester Perry
Posts: 19167
Joined: Thu Jun 02, 2016 11:06 am
Been Liked: 3114 times
Has Liked: 481 times

Re: Football's Magic Money Tree

Post by Chester Perry » Thu Aug 25, 2022 1:14 pm

Aston Villa look to join the 50,000+ club with a stadium expansion - it will be interesting to see how the tickets are spread between season and day trippers (and as always corporates have a role to play) Kieran Maguire gave as clear a definition as to why the day trippers are loved by the bigger clubs (they spend much, much more money) on todays PoF pod, but you can only do this with a big waiting list and a growing global audience

for all the hundreds of millions of GBP that the owners have thrown at the club they still don't have much to show for it apart from an extremely convenient breakdown in goal line technology at a time it most counted

https://www.avfc.co.uk/news/2022/august ... velopment/

And yes I would consider them a big club with a proud history

At this rate the government will not need to spend money on club infrastructure if the bid for a major championships ever comes off

tiger76
Posts: 25697
Joined: Sat Jun 24, 2017 9:43 pm
Been Liked: 4644 times
Has Liked: 9849 times
Location: Glasgow

Re: Football's Magic Money Tree

Post by tiger76 » Thu Aug 25, 2022 2:57 pm

PL transfer window record broken, and there's still a week to go this window.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/62670380

Chester Perry
Posts: 19167
Joined: Thu Jun 02, 2016 11:06 am
Been Liked: 3114 times
Has Liked: 481 times

Re: Football's Magic Money Tree

Post by Chester Perry » Fri Aug 26, 2022 2:41 am

this is a long article about an important subject filled with information about discussions but as with everything we have seen so far on this subject nothing that is concrete - from the Athletic


Premier League and EFL financial relationship – how and why is it going to change?
https://archive.ph/qMTJW

Chester Perry
Posts: 19167
Joined: Thu Jun 02, 2016 11:06 am
Been Liked: 3114 times
Has Liked: 481 times

Re: Football's Magic Money Tree

Post by Chester Perry » Fri Aug 26, 2022 2:51 am

Again from the Athletic, an article with an interesting premis that is ultimately wrong I feel (just consider that new US TV deal), but which makes some excellent observations along the way

Is this the beginning of the end for the Champions League’s era of dominance?
https://archive.ph/Vh1Lz

Vegas Claret
Posts: 30273
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2016 4:00 am
Been Liked: 10916 times
Has Liked: 5594 times
Location: clue is in the title

Re: Football's Magic Money Tree

Post by Vegas Claret » Fri Aug 26, 2022 3:26 am

Chester Perry wrote:
Fri Aug 26, 2022 2:51 am
Again from the Athletic, an article with an interesting premis that is ultimately wrong I feel (just consider that new US TV deal), but which makes some excellent observations along the way

Is this the beginning of the end for the Champions League’s era of dominance?
https://archive.ph/Vh1Lz
I'm not sure, plenty of people would rather their club team does well over their national team. I think this WC will be awful if the temps expected turn out to be that way, it'll be walking pace footy in half empty stadiums (the cost for tickets and accommodation is scandalous).

On a side note:
"This will be the penultimate version of the competition before the new format starts, which will allow two more places to Europe’s best leagues"

Does that mean the top 6 in the PL will be in the CL ?

on a further side note, cheers for making me aware of the archive website,very useful CP :)

Chester Perry
Posts: 19167
Joined: Thu Jun 02, 2016 11:06 am
Been Liked: 3114 times
Has Liked: 481 times

Re: Football's Magic Money Tree

Post by Chester Perry » Fri Aug 26, 2022 1:17 pm

Chester Perry wrote:
Thu Jul 21, 2022 12:17 am
This is an interesting read for those who look to Leicester as some kind of model -particularly what one summer of poor trading can do to a club with limited earnings on Matchdays and commercially - the owners continue to spend on the infrastructure (a shiny stadium expansion is in the works to complement that £100m training/Academy facility) but that attempt to seal a long term breach of the big six is stalling
From the Telegraph - paywall bypassed at the link

The Leicester logjam: Why Brendan Rodgers' transfer plans have been paralysed
Leicester City are the only club in the Premier League yet to make a signing this summer - and they have to sell players before they can buy
https://12ft.io/proxy?q=https%3A%2F%2Fw ... ralysed%2F
Things starting to get interesting for Leicester, failure to qualify for Europe will not have helped (together with reduced merit payments). It feels quite familiar as to what happens when the churn of player sales dries up particularly when a club have stretched themselves (and continue to do so) in an effort to get to the mythical next level.

The Telegraph with the latest on Leicester's cash crisis

What’s really going on at Leicester City?
The inability of Brendan Rodgers to spend in the transfer window points to deeper rooted problems at the King Power

https://12ft.io/proxy?q=https%3A%2F%2Fw ... er-city%2F

RVclaret
Posts: 13836
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 8:30 am
Been Liked: 3707 times
Has Liked: 2499 times

Re: Football's Magic Money Tree

Post by RVclaret » Fri Aug 26, 2022 1:29 pm

Chester Perry wrote:
Fri Aug 26, 2022 1:17 pm
Things starting to get interesting for Leicester, failure to qualify for Europe will not have helped (together with reduced merit payments). It feels quite familiar as to what happens when the churn of player sales dries up particularly when a club have stretched themselves (and continue to do so) in an effort to get to the mythical next level.

The Telegraph with the latest on Leicester's cash crisis

What’s really going on at Leicester City?
The inability of Brendan Rodgers to spend in the transfer window points to deeper rooted problems at the King Power

https://12ft.io/proxy?q=https%3A%2F%2Fw ... er-city%2F
I find it quite interesting that Leicester need to spend before they buy / are on the verge of a financial crisis, yet they can easily reject a 70m bid for their defender from Chelsea

Chester Perry
Posts: 19167
Joined: Thu Jun 02, 2016 11:06 am
Been Liked: 3114 times
Has Liked: 481 times

Re: Football's Magic Money Tree

Post by Chester Perry » Fri Aug 26, 2022 3:33 pm

Well this has shocked me somewhat - I have been saying for a while that overseas investors particularly from the US have been buying into European football, but I had not realised that 13 clubs in League 1 have overseas investors with 9 of them having American Investors

https://twitter.com/CIESsportsintel/sta ... 5322355713

Chester Perry
Posts: 19167
Joined: Thu Jun 02, 2016 11:06 am
Been Liked: 3114 times
Has Liked: 481 times

Re: Football's Magic Money Tree

Post by Chester Perry » Fri Aug 26, 2022 3:41 pm

Chester Perry wrote:
Fri Aug 26, 2022 2:51 am
Again from the Athletic, an article with an interesting premis that is ultimately wrong I feel (just consider that new US TV deal), but which makes some excellent observations along the way

Is this the beginning of the end for the Champions League’s era of dominance?
https://archive.ph/Vh1Lz
Miguel Delaney in the Independent with a slightly different take but following what appears to be a theme amonst a number of respected writers/publications

Champions League group stage excitement at an all-time low as financial disparity widens
Even Erling Haaland’s return to Dortmund and other enticing individual fixtures are attractive precisely because they are predicated on that economic gap


https://12ft.io/proxy?q=https%3A%2F%2Fw ... 52877.html

Chester Perry
Posts: 19167
Joined: Thu Jun 02, 2016 11:06 am
Been Liked: 3114 times
Has Liked: 481 times

Re: Football's Magic Money Tree

Post by Chester Perry » Fri Aug 26, 2022 5:03 pm

I missed this the other day due to the annoying twitter practice of non subscribers now getting extremely limited views on twitter - thankfully Miguel Delaney pointed it out in his weekly newsletter 'Reading the Game' which is always informative

Tariq Panja in the New York Times about the growing fears of the Power being exerted by PSG/Nasser Al Khelaifi in the corridors of football power, it is telling that people are coming forward and willing to be named in the article - not a new concern to this thread or poster

At Top of European Soccer, Fears That Rules Don’t Apply to All
When the Paris St.-Germain president avoided punishment in a UEFA investigation, some worried that his power and his friendships were producing special treatment.

https://archive.ph/I441Z

Colburn_Claret
Posts: 8069
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 4:30 pm
Been Liked: 3060 times
Has Liked: 5023 times
Location: Catterick N.Yorks

Re: Football's Magic Money Tree

Post by Colburn_Claret » Fri Aug 26, 2022 6:01 pm

I think fans fell out with the Champions League almost as soon as it was born. It's just taken this long for some journalists to catch up with supporters.
The glamour of top European ties, was their scarcity. you play it out every couple of weeks and it's just boring. In a one off tie anyone can beat anyone, but in a league format it's always the same teams that rise to the top. Great for those few clubs, because it was always about the money, but boring for the rest of the world.
I usually watch the final, especially if a British team is involved, but it's a chore to be honest, and the rest of the competition I have no interest in.
UEFA's plan to improve would be to add more teams, which would just dilute the competition further, and alienate even more fans, apart from the tiny minority that follows the fortunate few.
To restore interest, would mean going back to an old format and a straight knockout. It would even be possible to admit even more teams by adding 1 extra round, what's one more midweek fixture, it would still be fewer than the current format. But that poses the possibility that a BIG club could be eliminated early, and when you have debts of near a billion quid, that isn't going to go down well in Barcelona et al.

They've created a monster that they can't control anymore. The only way to end it, is to let it die naturally. The more fans get turned off, don't watch it please, the easier for UEFA to turn to the top clubs and say this is no good. If that brings about a ESL, then let them clear off, football would be the winner, even if it made less money, and the ESL would be even more boring than the Champions League.

Chester Perry
Posts: 19167
Joined: Thu Jun 02, 2016 11:06 am
Been Liked: 3114 times
Has Liked: 481 times

Re: Football's Magic Money Tree

Post by Chester Perry » Wed Aug 31, 2022 4:16 pm

I have been suggesting this for quite some time now and I expect the EFL to follow once they settle the discussions with the Premier League over distributions, all to match up with the new UEFA regulations. From the Times - archive copy to avoid paywall issues

Premier League clubs set for restrictions on spending
https://archive.ph/2RLwE

Chester Perry
Posts: 19167
Joined: Thu Jun 02, 2016 11:06 am
Been Liked: 3114 times
Has Liked: 481 times

Re: Football's Magic Money Tree

Post by Chester Perry » Wed Aug 31, 2022 4:29 pm

This is truly significant as a marker for the future of the game

Elliot Management become the first American fund management operation to make a very large return in football - the investment return ratio's are less than those achieved by Mike Garlick and co - less than half (which I suspect will never be beaten, but the numbers are also significantly larger.

Red Bird Capital buy AC Milan for EUR 1.2 billion with a little help from the owner of the NY Yankees

https://twitter.com/tariqpanja/status/1 ... 7951907840

Chester Perry
Posts: 19167
Joined: Thu Jun 02, 2016 11:06 am
Been Liked: 3114 times
Has Liked: 481 times

Re: Football's Magic Money Tree

Post by Chester Perry » Fri Sep 02, 2022 4:54 pm

Interesting stuff for those who thought financial fair play was dead given the Premier Leagues summer transfer spending

https://twitter.com/RobHarris/status/15 ... 7482314753

of course this on historic spending not the last window

Chester Perry
Posts: 19167
Joined: Thu Jun 02, 2016 11:06 am
Been Liked: 3114 times
Has Liked: 481 times

Re: Football's Magic Money Tree

Post by Chester Perry » Fri Sep 02, 2022 6:03 pm

Thee are likely to be a slew of articles talking about the financial dominance of the Premier League after the transfer window closed - Nottingham Forest reported spent more than the whole Dutch top flight, The Premier League very close to the combined total of the four other Big 5 Leagues combined - expect action across Europe and within UEFA

Meanwhile lets kick things off with Sam Wallace in the Telegraph

How the Premier League ate up the rest of Europe
New broadcast deal puts La Liga, Serie A and Bundesliga clubs in the shade

https://12ft.io/proxy?q=https%3A%2F%2Fw ... -europe%2F

OffTheBar
Posts: 256
Joined: Tue May 17, 2016 7:21 am
Been Liked: 55 times
Has Liked: 13 times

Re: Football's Magic Money Tree

Post by OffTheBar » Fri Sep 02, 2022 6:20 pm

It doesn’t specify if it’s gross or net spend, but if gross (which I think it is), it appears we received ~50% of all PL money received by EFL clubs? Again showing the dominance of the PL effect of course.

Chester Perry
Posts: 19167
Joined: Thu Jun 02, 2016 11:06 am
Been Liked: 3114 times
Has Liked: 481 times

Re: Football's Magic Money Tree

Post by Chester Perry » Fri Sep 02, 2022 6:39 pm

Miguel Delaney in the Independent takes his turn to comment on the window

Premier League flexes financial muscle to continue unsettling trend
The Premier League spent well over £1bn more than any other league in the summer window, once again underlining concerns over its dominance in the world game

https://12ft.io/proxy?q=https%3A%2F%2Fw ... 58178.html

RVclaret
Posts: 13836
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 8:30 am
Been Liked: 3707 times
Has Liked: 2499 times

Re: Football's Magic Money Tree

Post by RVclaret » Fri Sep 02, 2022 6:43 pm

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/62771118

UEFA have fined 8 clubs for breaching FFP and are closely monitoring several others including City, West Ham, Leicester and Rangers.

Chester Perry
Posts: 19167
Joined: Thu Jun 02, 2016 11:06 am
Been Liked: 3114 times
Has Liked: 481 times

Re: Football's Magic Money Tree

Post by Chester Perry » Fri Sep 02, 2022 7:01 pm

Chester Perry wrote:
Fri Sep 02, 2022 4:54 pm
Interesting stuff for those who thought financial fair play was dead given the Premier Leagues summer transfer spending

https://twitter.com/RobHarris/status/15 ... 7482314753

of course this on historic spending not the last window
RVclaret wrote:
Fri Sep 02, 2022 6:43 pm
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/62771118

UEFA have fined 8 clubs for breaching FFP and are closely monitoring several others including City, West Ham, Leicester and Rangers.
you can read the UEFA Judgements here
https://editorial.uefa.com/resources/02 ... t_2022.pdf
and here
https://editorial.uefa.com/resources/02 ... t_2022.pdf

Chester Perry
Posts: 19167
Joined: Thu Jun 02, 2016 11:06 am
Been Liked: 3114 times
Has Liked: 481 times

Re: Football's Magic Money Tree

Post by Chester Perry » Fri Sep 02, 2022 7:17 pm

Rory Smith in the New York Times on the summer window

Money to Burn: Lessons From the Premier League’s Transfer Window
English teams awash in cash broke records for players and prices this summer, proving again that they operate on a plane apart from their rivals.

https://archive.ph/LhyUW

Chester Perry
Posts: 19167
Joined: Thu Jun 02, 2016 11:06 am
Been Liked: 3114 times
Has Liked: 481 times

Re: Football's Magic Money Tree

Post by Chester Perry » Fri Sep 02, 2022 11:50 pm

No surprise who this article in the Guardian about those UEFA FFP fines focuses on

Paris Saint-Germain given £56m fine by Uefa after breaking FFP rules
Manchester City and Chelsea avoid punishment
New sustainability regulations replace financial fair play


https://www.theguardian.com/football/20 ... cial-rules

RVclaret
Posts: 13836
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 8:30 am
Been Liked: 3707 times
Has Liked: 2499 times

Re: Football's Magic Money Tree

Post by RVclaret » Sat Sep 03, 2022 7:48 am

https://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football ... s-27896816

Looks like the incoming PM could scrap the main recommendation in the Football Fan Led Review of having an independent regulator.

Chester Perry
Posts: 19167
Joined: Thu Jun 02, 2016 11:06 am
Been Liked: 3114 times
Has Liked: 481 times

Re: Football's Magic Money Tree

Post by Chester Perry » Sat Sep 03, 2022 11:24 pm

Jonathan Wilson in the Guardian takes his turn discussing the transfer window

After a wild €2.25bn spree, who can doubt that the Premier League is unstoppable?
Without some cap on spending, the rest can only look on in awe as England’s super-clubs disappear into the distance

https://www.theguardian.com/football/bl ... ier-league

Chester Perry
Posts: 19167
Joined: Thu Jun 02, 2016 11:06 am
Been Liked: 3114 times
Has Liked: 481 times

Re: Football's Magic Money Tree

Post by Chester Perry » Sun Sep 04, 2022 12:53 am

More on the summer window and it's implications

This podcast from The Athletic was recorded on Wednesday before the window closed - it picks up a lot of what I have posted here in the last couple of years

Hey big spender! Why the Premier League dominates the transfer window whilst the rest of Europe watches on
https://podfollow.com/1488521447/episod ... 82088/view

As you would expect the Athletic has posted more articles than most on the Transfer window and from more angles too

This overview from Philip Buckingham is probably the most comprehensive out there, showing just how far ahead the spending in England was

Premier League transfer window: £1.9bn spent, 67% up on 2021, Man United biggest net spend
https://archive.ph/rYahg

Chester Perry
Posts: 19167
Joined: Thu Jun 02, 2016 11:06 am
Been Liked: 3114 times
Has Liked: 481 times

Re: Football's Magic Money Tree

Post by Chester Perry » Sun Sep 04, 2022 10:16 pm

It the research around this report is true then there are going to be some very interesting FFP discussions in the coming months

from the Mail
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/footb ... eague.html
[b]Leicester to reveal estimated annual losses of £119.5MILLION - the highest in the Premier League - after signing just one player this summer and selling £69.5m Wesley Fofana to Chelsea
  • Leicester City are set to reveal the highest annual losses in the Premier League
  • The Foxes are set to announce a £119.5m loss, after selling Wesley Fofana
  • That is higher than anticipated deficits from Manchester United and Arsenal
  • Premier League clubs spent over £2bn on players in the recent transfer window [/b]
By NICK HARRIS and ALEX MILLER FOR MAILONLINE

PUBLISHED: 08:19 EDT, 4 September 2022 | UPDATED: 11:22 EDT, 4 September 2022

Leicester City's financial woes will be laid bare when the club reveal estimated annual losses of £119.5million.

Brendan Rodgers' side are predicted to have lost the most of any Premier League club over the course of last season.

Financial experts at Off The Pitch say only Manchester United's losses will go close to Leicester's, with their deficit to be £117m after splashing out on Cristiano Ronaldo, Jadon Sancho and Raphael Varane last summer.

Leicester signed just one outfield player this summer – Wout Faes from Stade de Reims for around £15m – and sold key defender Wesley Fofana to Chelsea £69.5m shortly before the transfer window shut.

Arsenal are expected to post losses of £84m, while north London rivals Tottenham face a £48m deficit. Newcastle United's spending under their new Saudi ownership mean the club are set to post losses of £40m.

Sportsmail previously reported that Premier League clubs have come under criticism after it emerged that the 20 teams spent a collective £2bn on transfers before the window shut on Thursday.

That figure is a record high, significantly more than the £1.45bn spent by clubs in 2017, as new owners look to push up the table, fight for European places, or even just survive one of the world's toughest leagues.

These losses may not even be a temporary issue, with seven of the ten most expensive moves of this transfer window coming to English clubs, including Antony's £85.5m move to Manchester United and Darwin Nunez's £85m switch to Liverpool.

The eye-watering amounts of money also appear to be out of touch with the reality of everyday life, as people struggle to deal with the cost of living crisis across England.

bfcjg
Posts: 13151
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2016 8:17 pm
Been Liked: 5000 times
Has Liked: 6715 times

Re: Football's Magic Money Tree

Post by bfcjg » Sun Sep 04, 2022 10:25 pm

These business models are so far removed from normal business practice it will take one of them to go under when a benefactor just stops pumping cash in or Sky pull the plug as subscriptions are cancelled to pay for heating etc. Chelsea are saddled with debt and a couple of bad seasons and they will be screwed.
It is getting obscene.

Chester Perry
Posts: 19167
Joined: Thu Jun 02, 2016 11:06 am
Been Liked: 3114 times
Has Liked: 481 times

Re: Football's Magic Money Tree

Post by Chester Perry » Mon Sep 05, 2022 1:06 pm

Ed Aarons in the Guardian with a piece on the man who appears to win in every transfer window, this summer was no different -it seems reasonable to suggest that he has kept Portuguese football afloat for well over a decade, while effectively stopping them from competing effectively at the very pinnacle of the game for more than the odd season - it is hard to judge if it has helped the national team or not (I would say more yes than no)

Another profitable window for Jorge Mendes, the ‘gatekeeper’ of Portugal
Darwin Núñez’s £85m move from Benfica to Liverpool led the way in deals involving Portugal’s big three clubs and the agent

https://www.theguardian.com/football/20 ... f-portugal

Chester Perry
Posts: 19167
Joined: Thu Jun 02, 2016 11:06 am
Been Liked: 3114 times
Has Liked: 481 times

Re: Football's Magic Money Tree

Post by Chester Perry » Wed Sep 07, 2022 2:51 pm

Some really interesting stuff here in an article about a minor shareholders legal case against Vincent tan at Cardiff all relating to the judge's disclosure about how he arrived at his verdict -pertaining at how to value a club and the acceptable discount for a minor shareholding

Kicking off at CCFC: Unfair prejudice judgment released
https://www.walkermorris.co.uk/in-brief ... -released/

if you look at in terms of:

The Burnley takeover
- VSL overpaid at a gross valuation of 1.45 pre Covid turnover - though Burnley had been in the Premier League for a number of years and profitable in all of them by then (Cardiff had just been promoted and it is unclear though suggestive that the valuation would be on Premier League rather than Championship turnover)

- The VSL offer to the small shareholders was exceptionally generous given it was already larger than that the original sellers got per share. if you apply the judges 'reasonable' 45% discount this offer would suggest a club valuation of £379.5m which is patently ridiculous

it would be interesting to hear from anyone who thinks VSL applied a discount to the small shareholders offer and at what rate

Paul Waine
Posts: 9845
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2016 2:28 pm
Been Liked: 2344 times
Has Liked: 3164 times

Re: Football's Magic Money Tree

Post by Paul Waine » Wed Sep 07, 2022 3:19 pm

Chester Perry wrote:
Wed Sep 07, 2022 2:51 pm
Some really interesting stuff here in an article about a minor shareholders legal case against Vincent tan at Cardiff all relating to the judge's disclosure about how he arrived at his verdict -pertaining at how to value a club and the acceptable discount for a minor shareholding

Kicking off at CCFC: Unfair prejudice judgment released
https://www.walkermorris.co.uk/in-brief ... -released/

if you look at in terms of:

The Burnley takeover
- VSL overpaid at a gross valuation of 1.45 pre Covid turnover - though Burnley had been in the Premier League for a number of years and profitable in all of them by then (Cardiff had just been promoted and it is unclear though suggestive that the valuation would be on Premier League rather than Championship turnover)

- The VSL offer to the small shareholders was exceptionally generous given it was already larger than that the original sellers got per share. if you apply the judges 'reasonable' 45% discount this offer would suggest a club valuation of £379.5m which is patently ridiculous

it would be interesting to hear from anyone who thinks VSL applied a discount to the small shareholders offer and at what rate
Interesting. At 1.3x revenue it suggests Alan Pace and colleagues paid generously for their 84% share in BFCHL. Valuing small shareholders at 45% discount suggests Alan Pace was even more generous with the offer to small shareholders.

In reality, comparables are never really comparable. There can be many other factors impacting valuations.

UTC

Chester Perry
Posts: 19167
Joined: Thu Jun 02, 2016 11:06 am
Been Liked: 3114 times
Has Liked: 481 times

Re: Football's Magic Money Tree

Post by Chester Perry » Thu Sep 08, 2022 2:12 pm

An interesting discussion about Web3/Metaverse and the future of IP for football and sport from Workd football summit

https://worldfootballsummit.com/the-fut ... 91ede26fa3

a not so specific focus on the subject of Web3/Metavers is here on the always excellent Unnofficial Partner

https://www.unofficialpartner.com/podca ... ing-crypto

Chester Perry
Posts: 19167
Joined: Thu Jun 02, 2016 11:06 am
Been Liked: 3114 times
Has Liked: 481 times

Re: Football's Magic Money Tree

Post by Chester Perry » Fri Sep 09, 2022 1:25 am

Chester Perry wrote:
Mon Sep 05, 2022 1:06 pm
Ed Aarons in the Guardian with a piece on the man who appears to win in every transfer window, this summer was no different -it seems reasonable to suggest that he has kept Portuguese football afloat for well over a decade, while effectively stopping them from competing effectively at the very pinnacle of the game for more than the odd season - it is hard to judge if it has helped the national team or not (I would say more yes than no)

Another profitable window for Jorge Mendes, the ‘gatekeeper’ of Portugal
Darwin Núñez’s £85m move from Benfica to Liverpool led the way in deals involving Portugal’s big three clubs and the agent

https://www.theguardian.com/football/20 ... f-portugal
It would appear Mendes is not the only agent smiling after the summer - apparently agents are earing close to 10% of all transfer fees this summer

Fifa report shows football agents earn £430.8m in latest male player transfer window
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/62833665

Chester Perry
Posts: 19167
Joined: Thu Jun 02, 2016 11:06 am
Been Liked: 3114 times
Has Liked: 481 times

Re: Football's Magic Money Tree

Post by Chester Perry » Fri Sep 09, 2022 12:12 pm

It must somewhat be somewhat disappointing for academics and journalists who have written millions of words and thousands of books, articles and research papers on the subject, that a fan can better describe the state of the modern game at its perceived highest level in three short sentences. Fortunately, Simon Chadwick is happy enough to take it full on the chin and share

Always talk to the taxi driver

In Paris...

"PSG? It's not a football club, it's The Avengers. It's just a cast of characters assembled to entertain people and make money. I used to be a fan, but not anymore"


https://twitter.com/Prof_Chadwick/statu ... 1110612992

Chester Perry
Posts: 19167
Joined: Thu Jun 02, 2016 11:06 am
Been Liked: 3114 times
Has Liked: 481 times

Re: Football's Magic Money Tree

Post by Chester Perry » Fri Sep 09, 2022 2:00 pm

Interesting piece from Jonathan Wilson in the Guardian about Graham Potter's switch to Chelsea that carefully forgets how much Toney Bloom has sunk into the club (£427m as per last accounts) or that it is currently a club very high up the league table on all time losses (that is in world football not just the Premier League) - but the point about who has the deepest pockets, for the longest time is a valid one. I saw a piece the other week that suggested the two most likely challengers to the big six (possibly 7) were owned by professional gamblers (Brighton and Brentford) which is a bit of an indictment on the whole situation though it is reasonable to say that the operational side of both those clubs has been rather good. Anyway, back to that article

Potter’s Chelsea switch shows money always trumps cleverness in football

Meaty fist of capital has checked the dream at astutely run Brighton but no one can blame manager for seizing this chance

https://www.theguardian.com/football/bl ... l-brighton

Chester Perry
Posts: 19167
Joined: Thu Jun 02, 2016 11:06 am
Been Liked: 3114 times
Has Liked: 481 times

Re: Football's Magic Money Tree

Post by Chester Perry » Mon Sep 12, 2022 12:35 pm

Anyone who pays attention such things, will know that each cycle the Preier League increase the demand for permanent TV infrastructure/facilities at their members football grounds. It is quite a burden for those clubs who have been out of the loop for some time, both financially and physically (installation time).

Yet as we know there is still the need for TV trucks to be at the grounds as well to support the broadcast of games worldwide, how long before the demands of clubs will be to install facilities that mean the trucks are no longer required

EXCLUSIVE: Premier League football's return faces a problem with a lack of TV TRUCKS - with Sky News' needs for covering the death of the Queen putting a strain on Sky Sports' resources
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/sport ... RUCKS.html

the cancelation of games over the las weekend was interesting -normally you would expect football to be cautious about such an event - we are all familiar about the rebate issue. I am coming round to the thought that in the Premier League at least the cancellation was more about the broadcasters needs - both in terms of equipment, but also in terms of audiences. It was notable that the rest of the game followed like lemmings the Premier Leagues example.

Of course, there is now worry from the Premier League about the coming weekend and the difficulty in getting games played in an incredibly tightly scheduled season - which makes last weekend's decision look even more hasty. The season cannot be extended - under UEFA rules. There is little point in asking FIFA/UEFA for help in this - all it does is play into their reforming hands - both want top domestic leagues to be comprised of no more than 18 teams and to participate in only 1 domestic cup so that they can further extend their own competitions - In the rest of the world this is the norm in our country we essentially have 5 full time professional leagues (116 teams) and edging towards 7 - no sport in any country in the world (many much bigger than ours) can provide such full time professional depth.

GodIsADeeJay81
Posts: 14562
Joined: Thu Feb 01, 2018 9:55 am
Been Liked: 3435 times
Has Liked: 6339 times

Re: Football's Magic Money Tree

Post by GodIsADeeJay81 » Mon Sep 12, 2022 1:24 pm

Logically, it would make sense for clubs to have a built in media centre for broadcasting the games, especially the larger ones.
Newer clubs to the PL could be given a number of seasons to get something sorted and they would use trucks in the interim.

The broadcasters could supply the staff etc.

Chester Perry
Posts: 19167
Joined: Thu Jun 02, 2016 11:06 am
Been Liked: 3114 times
Has Liked: 481 times

Re: Football's Magic Money Tree

Post by Chester Perry » Mon Sep 12, 2022 1:34 pm

GodIsADeeJay81 wrote:
Mon Sep 12, 2022 1:24 pm
Logically, it would make sense for clubs to have a built in media centre for broadcasting the games, especially the larger ones.
Newer clubs to the PL could be given a number of seasons to get something sorted and they would use trucks in the interim.

The broadcasters could supply the staff etc.
The issues (all interrelated) are
cost - our club has probably spent £7m - £10m meeting the facility demands of the Premier League
space -new buildings will be required to replace the trucks (was it 2, 3 or 4 at the Turf
frequency of use - the facility would be used 19 times a year for the most part
life expectancy - how often would the equipment require updating (trucks are used almost constantly for different purposes so ROI is spread out)

Chester Perry
Posts: 19167
Joined: Thu Jun 02, 2016 11:06 am
Been Liked: 3114 times
Has Liked: 481 times

Re: Football's Magic Money Tree

Post by Chester Perry » Mon Sep 12, 2022 4:17 pm

Interesting times at Norwich, as discussions about a new investor (buying shares of shareholders who wanted the club to agree the sale and who to). This is a story that has been knocking around for some months now - the proposed new shareholder is a billionaire - it is not for a majority shareholding but you get the feeling it is about trying each other on for size - Delia Smith and her husband are not getting any younger and succession needs to happen at some stage

Explained: What City shareholders will vote on this evening
https://www.pinkun.com/sport/norwich-ci ... er-9267296

This in the Athletic from some weeks back gives you the background

Norwich City: Mark Attanasio’s potential investment and what happens next
https://archive.ph/uunny

All quite different to the way our club was sold - perhaps lessons have been learned - and significantly it is not the major shareholders selling. It still appears a very unified board at Norwich

ClaretPete001
Posts: 2022
Joined: Wed Jan 12, 2022 11:39 am
Been Liked: 308 times
Has Liked: 162 times

Re: Football's Magic Money Tree

Post by ClaretPete001 » Mon Sep 12, 2022 5:27 pm

Chester Perry wrote:
Mon Sep 12, 2022 4:17 pm
Interesting times at Norwich, as discussions about a new investor (buying shares of shareholders who wanted the club to agree the sale and who to). This is a story that has been knocking around for some months now - the proposed new shareholder is a billionaire - it is not for a majority shareholding but you get the feeling it is about trying each other on for size - Delia Smith and her husband are not getting any younger and succession needs to happen at some stage

Explained: What City shareholders will vote on this evening
https://www.pinkun.com/sport/norwich-ci ... er-9267296

This in the Athletic from some weeks back gives you the background

Norwich City: Mark Attanasio’s potential investment and what happens next
https://archive.ph/uunny

All quite different to the way our club was sold - perhaps lessons have been learned - and significantly it is not the major shareholders selling. It still appears a very unified board at Norwich
Looks like a good fit...

Chester Perry
Posts: 19167
Joined: Thu Jun 02, 2016 11:06 am
Been Liked: 3114 times
Has Liked: 481 times

Re: Football's Magic Money Tree

Post by Chester Perry » Tue Sep 13, 2022 2:55 pm

Chester Perry wrote:
Mon Sep 12, 2022 4:17 pm
Interesting times at Norwich, as discussions about a new investor (buying shares of shareholders who wanted the club to agree the sale and who to). This is a story that has been knocking around for some months now - the proposed new shareholder is a billionaire - it is not for a majority shareholding but you get the feeling it is about trying each other on for size - Delia Smith and her husband are not getting any younger and succession needs to happen at some stage

Explained: What City shareholders will vote on this evening
https://www.pinkun.com/sport/norwich-ci ... er-9267296

This in the Athletic from some weeks back gives you the background

Norwich City: Mark Attanasio’s potential investment and what happens next
https://archive.ph/uunny

All quite different to the way our club was sold - perhaps lessons have been learned - and significantly it is not the major shareholders selling. It still appears a very unified board at Norwich
All four resolutions passed without any issue (as expected - Norwich now have a new significant shareholder and he is an American Billionaire - The Athletic looks at what it means

What Milwaukee Brewers owner Mark Attanasio’s investment means for Norwich City
https://archive.ph/fsOm5

Paul Waine
Posts: 9845
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2016 2:28 pm
Been Liked: 2344 times
Has Liked: 3164 times

Re: Football's Magic Money Tree

Post by Paul Waine » Tue Sep 13, 2022 5:49 pm

Chester Perry wrote:
Mon Sep 12, 2022 4:17 pm
Interesting times at Norwich, as discussions about a new investor (buying shares of shareholders who wanted the club to agree the sale and who to). This is a story that has been knocking around for some months now - the proposed new shareholder is a billionaire - it is not for a majority shareholding but you get the feeling it is about trying each other on for size - Delia Smith and her husband are not getting any younger and succession needs to happen at some stage

Explained: What City shareholders will vote on this evening
https://www.pinkun.com/sport/norwich-ci ... er-9267296

This in the Athletic from some weeks back gives you the background

Norwich City: Mark Attanasio’s potential investment and what happens next
https://archive.ph/uunny

All quite different to the way our club was sold - perhaps lessons have been learned - and significantly it is not the major shareholders selling. It still appears a very unified board at Norwich
Very different situation from the sale of BFC to Alan Pace et al.

BFC: Directors agreed to sell (nearly) all their shares, 84% of the club - a big majority of shareholders.
NFC: one minority shareholder, a director with 18% of shares looking to sell his shares. Majority shareholders not selling their shares. This transaction doesn't suggest Norwich City is for sale (at this time).
BFC: requirement for all directors to hold X,000 shares.
NFC: appears no obligation for any directors to hold shares.
BFC: New owner buys majority of club.
NFC: Attanasio, if he buys the 18% shares, becomes a minority owner of the club.

Not sure what the C share plan is. Is it Attanasio buying all these shares or can others also bid to buy some of these new shares?

Similarities: Both Alan Pace and Attanasio have US financial services background.
Difference: Attanasio is in asset management - his firm has Assets Under Management (not his money) of $36 billion. Is it Attanasio as an individual or Attanasio as representative for his asset management company that will be buying the shares? Attansaio is reported (google) to have net worth of $750 million in Sept 2022 (Wealthy Persons). (That's only 75% a "billionaire").

Statement in Athletic appears to apply to both Alan Pace/Burnley and Attanasio/Norwich:

Americans can see soccer, unlike the helmets-and-pads sport they call football, is the global game and that its popularity is growing fast in North America too. They believe they can solve European football’s financial issues with some US thinking on commercial growth, media rights, revenue-sharing and cost controls.

Paul Waine
Posts: 9845
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2016 2:28 pm
Been Liked: 2344 times
Has Liked: 3164 times

Re: Football's Magic Money Tree

Post by Paul Waine » Tue Sep 13, 2022 6:09 pm

Chester Perry wrote:
Tue Sep 13, 2022 2:55 pm
All four resolutions passed without any issue (as expected - Norwich now have a new significant shareholder and he is an American Billionaire - The Athletic looks at what it means

What Milwaukee Brewers owner Mark Attanasio’s investment means for Norwich City
https://archive.ph/fsOm5
Norwich's new shareholder holds 18% of the ordinary shares in the club and a further £10 million in C-Shares, preference shares yielding 7% with some additional optionality. Not quite the same as a loan as Athletic describes it.

Attanasio's net worth is reported to be $750 million according to Wealthy People, Sept 2022. He is not a billionaire.

The Athletic reports that he has been (my words) 'careful with his money' in his ownership of the Brewers, baseball franchise.

Chester Perry
Posts: 19167
Joined: Thu Jun 02, 2016 11:06 am
Been Liked: 3114 times
Has Liked: 481 times

Re: Football's Magic Money Tree

Post by Chester Perry » Wed Sep 14, 2022 11:46 am

Well, that hasn't taken long, has it? Todd Boehly is already trying to make changes to the game in this country, no concern for the number of games players are being asked to play it seems or understanding of what FIFA/UEFA are trying to limit on the game at domestic levels. This without considering the impact of the play-offs for the EFL/National League which are vital components of their broadcast deals, at a time when currently there is no real direct airtime competition football wise for them

Todd Boehly calls for 'north versus south all-star' game and four-team league to decide relegation
Chelsea's chairman says learning from US sports could help the Premier League raise more money and explains Thomas Tuchel's sacking

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/20 ... four-team/

Chester Perry
Posts: 19167
Joined: Thu Jun 02, 2016 11:06 am
Been Liked: 3114 times
Has Liked: 481 times

Re: Football's Magic Money Tree

Post by Chester Perry » Wed Sep 14, 2022 2:42 pm

there is nothing new about this apart from the specific example cited -The Premier League as super league is something I have been talking about for quite some time now (and I am far from being alone in that) - From the Athletic (archive copy to avoid the paywall)

How the skewed market means the Champions League simply isn’t enough to attract top names anymore
https://archive.ph/Evwqy

GodIsADeeJay81
Posts: 14562
Joined: Thu Feb 01, 2018 9:55 am
Been Liked: 3435 times
Has Liked: 6339 times

Re: Football's Magic Money Tree

Post by GodIsADeeJay81 » Wed Sep 14, 2022 2:51 pm

Chester Perry wrote:
Wed Sep 14, 2022 11:46 am
Well, that hasn't taken long, has it? Todd Boehly is already trying to make changes to the game in this country, no concern for the number of games players are being asked to play it seems or understanding of what FIFA/UEFA are trying to limit on the game at domestic levels. This without considering the impact of the play-offs for the EFL/National League which are vital components of their broadcast deals, at a time when currently there is no real direct airtime competition football wise for them

Todd Boehly calls for 'north versus south all-star' game and four-team league to decide relegation
Chelsea's chairman says learning from US sports could help the Premier League raise more money and explains Thomas Tuchel's sacking

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/20 ... four-team/
These sorts of teams have been theorised on social media for years to be fair, he's just the first person to make a semi serious suggestion.

I think a lot of fans would be interested in seeing it happen

Chester Perry
Posts: 19167
Joined: Thu Jun 02, 2016 11:06 am
Been Liked: 3114 times
Has Liked: 481 times

Re: Football's Magic Money Tree

Post by Chester Perry » Wed Sep 14, 2022 3:02 pm

GodIsADeeJay81 wrote:
Wed Sep 14, 2022 2:51 pm
These sorts of teams have been theorised on social media for years to be fair, he's just the first person to make a semi serious suggestion.

I think a lot of fans would be interested in seeing it happen
and they haven't happened for the reasons I mention - Boehly trying to say the North-South game is means of raising money for the game is also a bit rich - making them charity cases rather than given them the opportunity to stand on their own in the spotlight

NewClaret
Posts: 13222
Joined: Tue Dec 31, 2019 9:51 am
Been Liked: 3037 times
Has Liked: 3759 times

Re: Football's Magic Money Tree

Post by NewClaret » Wed Sep 14, 2022 3:08 pm

ClaretPete001 wrote:
Mon Sep 12, 2022 5:27 pm
Looks like a good fit...
The part I don’t get about the ALK model is who would want to invest but not run it? Maybe this type of guy - who wants a hand in an exciting and global sport but has a big business to run. Or maybe, as CP alludes, this is just a precursor to an ultimate takeover.

This must be very encouraging to AP though - that there’s willing wealthy investors looking to buy in to a similarly sized club.

Chester Perry
Posts: 19167
Joined: Thu Jun 02, 2016 11:06 am
Been Liked: 3114 times
Has Liked: 481 times

Re: Football's Magic Money Tree

Post by Chester Perry » Wed Sep 14, 2022 8:07 pm

Could Scunthorpe be the next club to enter administration

Scunthorpe United 'at risk of entering administration' after takeover deal collapses
The Iron are bottom of the National League after picking up four points from their first eight matches of the season

https://www.grimsbytelegraph.co.uk/spor ... ng-7583710

Post Reply