ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

This Forum is the main messageboard to discuss all things Claret and Blue and beyond
Chester Perry
Posts: 19167
Joined: Thu Jun 02, 2016 11:06 am
Been Liked: 3114 times
Has Liked: 481 times

Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by Chester Perry » Sat Apr 01, 2023 12:06 am

All that follows was on the West Brom auditors report thread (http://www.uptheclarets.com/messageboar ... =2&t=68620) but feels just as, if not more relevant to this one - It is probably more helpful and correct for this element of the conversation on that thread to be continued on this one
Down_Rover wrote:
Fri Mar 31, 2023 1:13 pm
Are you suggesting we have an issue with Azets?
Paul Waine wrote:
Fri Mar 31, 2023 3:02 pm
No, of course not. These are West Brom's accounts and Azets are West Brom's auditors.

Yes, we still wait to learn who BFC's new auditors are. The one thing we know is that Azets resigned last year.
Chester Perry wrote:
Fri Mar 31, 2023 3:49 pm
are we really certain that Azets resigned and were not just thanked for their services and replaced, the clubs own statement said they decided on a change of auditor in November? that btw is a timeline that I question given that I understand that an appointment of new auditors was made in early November and due process would be required before that appointment was confirmed.

https://www.burnleyfootballclub.com/con ... nt-embargo
In our continued efforts to improve and move forward Burnley Football Club we made the decision to change our auditors in November and the transition has taken longer than we anticipated.

there are people who engage on this message board who could find out for absolutely certain - all they have to do is exercise the shareholders rights under the 2006 Companies Act and ask the club (in a direct response to the March 12th statement)
- Did Azets resign or did the club decide to replace them?
- Who are the new auditors of the club and when where they appointed?

It is even possible for shareholders to ask to look at the board meeting minutes/notes where these decisions were taken

I would be very interested for shareholders to engage in such action, you would like to think that the Clarets Trust has done so already (though I have little expectation on that front), given it's chair sits on the fan advisory board and this topic is supposedly high on the advisory boards agenda at it's next meeting with the club which, i understand, is coming up very soon.
aggi wrote:
Fri Mar 31, 2023 4:14 pm
I'm rusty on the technicalities but I think if they were re-appointed (which they may well have been if it wasn't until November that the change happened and I thought I'd seen a suggestion somewhere that they had been doing some work this year) then they would have to resign even if the change was driven by the directors choosing to replace them.
Chester Perry wrote:
Fri Mar 31, 2023 4:52 pm
Thanks as always for your specific specialist insights

The quirks of industry practice and terminology aside, there is still a significant difference between being obliged to resign and choosing to resign, the way Paul expressed it, it came across to the layman (and I know Paul was an accountant for the best part of 2 decades at least, so he may have slipped into trade reserved terminology) as the latter which the club statement appears in direct contention with.
Paul Waine wrote:
Fri Mar 31, 2023 10:19 pm
Hi CP, my use of "resigned" was intending simply to be "good mannered."

We know from the Directors' Report in the 2020/21 BFCHL accounts: "Auditor: The auditor, Azets Audit Services, is deemed to be reappointed under section 487(2) of the Companies Act 2006."

I've now checked the technical advice to auditors provided by the ICAEW. If Azets had resigned because there were "matters" they required to report they would have to file a statement at Companies House to advise both shareholders and creditors of these matters. Obviously, Azets haven't done this. Thus we can conclude that the club decided to appoint new auditors and Azets had no matters to report when they were replaced.
dsr wrote:
Fri Mar 31, 2023 11:13 pm
It's a very odd time to appoint new auditors. It certainly wouldn't be as a matter of general policy, because the replacement was 11 months after the prvious accounts had been signed off and the replacement auditors would be appointed then - if it was a routine matter. Something has happened in the meantime to make BFC unhappy with Azets. (I doubt it would be the other way round, because it would surely be deeply unprofessional to resign from auditing so late in the day, unless there was a fundamental difference of opinion as to whether - say - a £150m loan from the owners was likely to be repaid.

Down_Rover
Posts: 1749
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 12:09 pm
Been Liked: 445 times
Has Liked: 187 times
Location: Manchester

Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by Down_Rover » Sat Apr 01, 2023 9:47 am

Interesting CP, you clearly understood why I asked the first question

These things are never black and white. I don’t think the auditors would be obliged to file anything at Companies House until their audit work was complete

It is common practice from auditors to meet the client before the audit starts to discuss ‘key issues’. It is entirely possible that is where resignation was discussed.

I think it better they find an independent auditor who agrees with Board’s interpretation of the loan. That way we don’t need to sweat

Chester Perry
Posts: 19167
Joined: Thu Jun 02, 2016 11:06 am
Been Liked: 3114 times
Has Liked: 481 times

Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by Chester Perry » Sat Apr 01, 2023 12:01 pm

Of course it is not only ourselves and West Brom who have changed auditors

Everton denied changing auditors in November last year - but lo and behold they had by the time the accounts were filed - incidentally they got them into the Premier League by March 1 2023

https://twitter.com/KieranMaguire/statu ... 1496549378

It seems that while BDO were losing the Everton account they gained ours

Paul Waine
Posts: 9845
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2016 2:28 pm
Been Liked: 2344 times
Has Liked: 3164 times

Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by Paul Waine » Sat Apr 01, 2023 4:41 pm

dsr wrote:
Fri Mar 31, 2023 11:13 pm
It's a very odd time to appoint new auditors. It certainly wouldn't be as a matter of general policy, because the replacement was 11 months after the prvious accounts had been signed off and the replacement auditors would be appointed then - if it was a routine matter. Something has happened in the meantime to make BFC unhappy with Azets. (I doubt it would be the other way round, because it would surely be deeply unprofessional to resign from auditing so late in the day, unless there was a fundamental difference of opinion as to whether - say - a £150m loan from the owners was likely to be repaid.
BFCHL's accounts for the year ended 31st July 2021 were signed off by Azets on 28th April 2022. We are informed that new auditors were appointed in mid-Novmber 2022, so 6.5 months from the date Azets signed off the accounts. (We are only now, today, 11 months after the date the previous accounts were signed off).

No need for anything to have happened to make BFC unhappy with Azets. BFC is owned by ALK (US)/VSP (US) and an auditor that is known in the US as well as the UK is an asset for BFC and the group going forward. Azets, on the other hand, are a Nordic accounting service, Denmark, Norway, Sweden and Finland, who bought into UK in 2016.

PS: AS CP has suggested, aiming to keep all the discussion on ALK and BFC finances on this thread.

Jill1960
Posts: 14
Joined: Sat Apr 01, 2023 6:01 pm
Been Liked: 6 times
Has Liked: 6 times

Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by Jill1960 » Sat Apr 01, 2023 9:10 pm

I have been following this thread more closely since the recent announcement about the change of auditors but have hesitated to post until now given the depth of expertise of other contributors to this thread. However, Paul W has made a point that I have been considering for sometime and agree with regarding the US ownership of BFC and name recognition of the auditor firm in the USA.

For several reasons having an auditor who is able to produce audited statements to meet both UK accounting standards and to also replicate or ‘convert’ to USA/GAAP standards would be a real advantage. Firstly, to meet the US tax reporting needs of US citizens and secondly for attracting US investors. As others have commented on this thread before, if high net worth individuals in the US (ie retired NFL players etc) are being courted to invest in BFC as an “investment-diversification” opportunity then the ability to show their financial advisors GAAP-based financial statements from a recognized auditing firm is valuable. Should those individuals then chose to invest, having those same statements available in support of their annual tax filing with the IRS (USA Federal taxing authority) would be invaluable in reducing both the cost and complexity of complying with US tax reporting requirements for those HNW individuals.

The same benefit also applies for AP/ALK etc. when it comes to tax reporting to the IRS. Apologies if these points have been made previously.
These 2 users liked this post: NewClaret Paul Waine

Quickenthetempo
Posts: 17913
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 10:35 am
Been Liked: 3841 times
Has Liked: 2065 times

Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by Quickenthetempo » Sun Apr 02, 2023 8:25 am

Is it a common trend in the Premier league with all the American owners?
Clubs changing to American auditors?

Is it an audit firm that checks all the accounts for the Premier league? Or do they have in house staff?

Jill1960
Posts: 14
Joined: Sat Apr 01, 2023 6:01 pm
Been Liked: 6 times
Has Liked: 6 times

Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by Jill1960 » Sun Apr 02, 2023 12:19 pm

Good question. From a quick look at companies house records for each of the PL clubs under American ownership, eight of the 11 clubs are audited by one of the Big 4 international accounting firms. As to when those auditors were appointed, I don't know without doing a lot more research however, I do know that all of these firms are as well known in the USA as they are in the UK, and dominate the auditing market in the US. They also have substantial, and likely more lucrative, tax and wealth management practices.

PriceWaterhouseCoopers - Man U, Aston Villa, West Ham, Bournemouth.
Deloitte - Arsenal.
KPMG - Chelsea,Fulham.
Ernst & Young - Liverpool.
The others:-
Crystal Palace - RSM UK Audit, LLP. Ranked 6th largest in the world currently.
Leeds - Gibson Booth ( a Huddersfield based firm).
These 2 users liked this post: Quickenthetempo Paul Waine

Paul Waine
Posts: 9845
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2016 2:28 pm
Been Liked: 2344 times
Has Liked: 3164 times

Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by Paul Waine » Sun Apr 02, 2023 4:09 pm

Quickenthetempo wrote:
Sun Apr 02, 2023 8:25 am
Is it a common trend in the Premier league with all the American owners?
Clubs changing to American auditors?

Is it an audit firm that checks all the accounts for the Premier league? Or do they have in house staff?
Hi Quicken, all the Big 4 accounting firms, PwC, Deloitte, KPMG and EY are UK firms. All, of course, have grown and expanded internationally and dominate the US market just like they do in the UK and most other countries. Arthur Andersen was the only big international accounting firm that was US head quartered. About 20 years ago, AA collapsed following accounting scandals at Enron and WorldCom which AA audited. Before AA collapsed they were one of the Big 5 accounting firms.

CP has suggested - I don't know if there's any public domain confirmation - that BDO have been appointed as BFC's new auditors. Their profile matches with my expectation of an accounting/audit firm that is well known in both UK and US. Again, as with the Big 4, BDO is a UK accounting firm.

Re your second question, are you asking who performs the review of accounts for the Premier League and EFL? Interesting question. You'd hope that both bodies would have some in house staff capable of reading and reviewing accounts and checking the clubs are in compliance with the Premier League's and EFL's respective FFP regulations. Of course, they will always be able to call in additional contract support should they require additional resources to assist them. If they do use any external staff we can be sure that they won't be using any of the same firms that have performed the audit of the club's finances they are reviewing. Of course, when it comes to compliance with rules, I'd also expect lawyers to be involved.
This user liked this post: Quickenthetempo

Paul Waine
Posts: 9845
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2016 2:28 pm
Been Liked: 2344 times
Has Liked: 3164 times

Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by Paul Waine » Sun Apr 02, 2023 4:18 pm

Jill1960 wrote:
Sat Apr 01, 2023 9:10 pm
I have been following this thread more closely since the recent announcement about the change of auditors but have hesitated to post until now given the depth of expertise of other contributors to this thread. However, Paul W has made a point that I have been considering for sometime and agree with regarding the US ownership of BFC and name recognition of the auditor firm in the USA.

For several reasons having an auditor who is able to produce audited statements to meet both UK accounting standards and to also replicate or ‘convert’ to USA/GAAP standards would be a real advantage. Firstly, to meet the US tax reporting needs of US citizens and secondly for attracting US investors. As others have commented on this thread before, if high net worth individuals in the US (ie retired NFL players etc) are being courted to invest in BFC as an “investment-diversification” opportunity then the ability to show their financial advisors GAAP-based financial statements from a recognized auditing firm is valuable. Should those individuals then chose to invest, having those same statements available in support of their annual tax filing with the IRS (USA Federal taxing authority) would be invaluable in reducing both the cost and complexity of complying with US tax reporting requirements for those HNW individuals.

The same benefit also applies for AP/ALK etc. when it comes to tax reporting to the IRS. Apologies if these points have been made previously.
Hi Jill, welcome to the board.

interesting suggestions. I have very limited knowledge of US tax reporting needs of US citizens or of anyone else who is subject to tax on income earned in the US. I do know that US citizens remain liable for US taxes on their income even when living in another country, so always have to file in VSP (US) I feel it is mostly important to have an audit firm that those investors can trust the quality of their audit, ones that have a decent presence in both UK and US are more likely to fit this requirement than firms that don't have any presence in the US.

aggi
Posts: 8762
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 11:31 am
Been Liked: 2109 times

Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by aggi » Sun Apr 02, 2023 5:30 pm

Quickenthetempo wrote:
Sun Apr 02, 2023 8:25 am
Is it a common trend in the Premier league with all the American owners?
Clubs changing to American auditors?

Is it an audit firm that checks all the accounts for the Premier league? Or do they have in house staff?
The audit firms may have the same names but they are entirely different companies with just a loose alliance between UK and US.
This user liked this post: Quickenthetempo

Chester Perry
Posts: 19167
Joined: Thu Jun 02, 2016 11:06 am
Been Liked: 3114 times
Has Liked: 481 times

Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by Chester Perry » Sun Apr 02, 2023 5:45 pm

Been doing some research into something else entirely different to this today with regards to ALK/VSL and still managed to come across this, funny old world

we now have names to put to the initials of the ultimate controlling organisation of Burnley FC

ALK = Ashlyn (middle daughter), Lynaea (youngest) , Kayleigh (oldest)

courtesy of https://www.tiktok.com/@ashlynpacefergu ... 8028059930 of two days ago

RVclaret
Posts: 13836
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 8:30 am
Been Liked: 3707 times
Has Liked: 2499 times

Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by RVclaret » Sun Apr 02, 2023 5:46 pm

Chester Perry wrote:
Sun Apr 02, 2023 5:45 pm
Been doing some research into something else entirely different to this today with regards to ALK/VSL and still managed to come across this, funny old world

we now have names to put to the initials of the ultimate controlling organisation of Burnley FC

ALK = Ashlyn (middle daughter), Lynaea (youngest) , Kayleigh (oldest)

courtesy of https://www.tiktok.com/@ashlynpacefergu ... 8028059930 of two days ago
Thought this was well known already. Can’t believe someone as well researched as you only just got this one!

Chester Perry
Posts: 19167
Joined: Thu Jun 02, 2016 11:06 am
Been Liked: 3114 times
Has Liked: 481 times

Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by Chester Perry » Sun Apr 02, 2023 5:52 pm

RVclaret wrote:
Sun Apr 02, 2023 5:46 pm
Thought this was well known already. Can’t believe someone as well researched as you only just got this one!
never come across it before and have even really looked into it - I try to keep away from the family (I believe in the need for that kind of privacy)

and a quick search shows it has never been put on this board before

http://www.uptheclarets.com/messageboar ... d%5B0%5D=2

RVclaret
Posts: 13836
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 8:30 am
Been Liked: 3707 times
Has Liked: 2499 times

Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by RVclaret » Sun Apr 02, 2023 5:54 pm

Chester Perry wrote:
Sun Apr 02, 2023 5:52 pm
never come across it before and have even really looked into it - I try to keep away from the family (I believe in the need for that kind of privacy)

and a quick search shows it has never been put on this board before

http://www.uptheclarets.com/messageboar ... d%5B0%5D=2
Fair enough, thought it had been mentioned on here. Maybe just not mentioning their names. Either that or I’ve seen it on social media.

Chester Perry
Posts: 19167
Joined: Thu Jun 02, 2016 11:06 am
Been Liked: 3114 times
Has Liked: 481 times

Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by Chester Perry » Sun Apr 02, 2023 5:56 pm

RVclaret wrote:
Sun Apr 02, 2023 5:54 pm
Fair enough, thought it had been mentioned on here. Maybe just not mentioning their names. Either that or I’ve seen it on social media.
probably the latter - which I am not engaged in at all - this board has more than enough of the pitfalls for me to engage elsewhere

Nori1958
Posts: 3833
Joined: Tue May 03, 2022 10:45 am
Been Liked: 1112 times
Has Liked: 347 times

Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by Nori1958 » Sun Apr 02, 2023 6:05 pm

RVclaret wrote:
Sun Apr 02, 2023 5:54 pm
Fair enough, thought it had been mentioned on here. Maybe just not mentioning their names. Either that or I’ve seen it on social media.
I knew about it, don't know where from, probably from one of the articles about Mr Pace, which will have been linked from on here.

ClaretTony
Posts: 67422
Joined: Thu Dec 24, 2015 3:07 pm
Been Liked: 32237 times
Has Liked: 5253 times
Location: Burnley
Contact:

Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by ClaretTony » Sun Apr 02, 2023 6:06 pm

Nori1958 wrote:
Sun Apr 02, 2023 6:05 pm
I knew about it, don't know where from, probably from one of the articles about Mr Pace, which will have been linked from on here.
I knew ALK were his daughters names, was mentioned some time ago. I’d no idea what they were called though other than Ayshlin.

Nori1958
Posts: 3833
Joined: Tue May 03, 2022 10:45 am
Been Liked: 1112 times
Has Liked: 347 times

Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by Nori1958 » Sun Apr 02, 2023 6:19 pm

ClaretTony wrote:
Sun Apr 02, 2023 6:06 pm
I knew ALK were his daughters names, was mentioned some time ago. I’d no idea what they were called though other than Ayshlin.
I knew it was named after his daughters, I can't claim to know the names of any of them though.

ClaretTony
Posts: 67422
Joined: Thu Dec 24, 2015 3:07 pm
Been Liked: 32237 times
Has Liked: 5253 times
Location: Burnley
Contact:

Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by ClaretTony » Sun Apr 02, 2023 6:20 pm

Nori1958 wrote:
Sun Apr 02, 2023 6:19 pm
I knew it was named after his daughters, I can't claim to know the names of any of them though.
Found out the first one when the Mormon programme was on tv a couple of weeks ago.

Jill1960
Posts: 14
Joined: Sat Apr 01, 2023 6:01 pm
Been Liked: 6 times
Has Liked: 6 times

Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by Jill1960 » Sun Apr 02, 2023 10:25 pm

Thanks Paul

Seems that we are on the same page about the benefits of appointing an auditing firm with international name recognition if part of the business strategy is to attract new investors from the USA, or from elsewhere for that matter. You mentioned in one of your post a firm, BDO. I am not familiar with this firm, is BDO an abbreviation? Thanks.

Chester Perry
Posts: 19167
Joined: Thu Jun 02, 2016 11:06 am
Been Liked: 3114 times
Has Liked: 481 times

Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by Chester Perry » Sun Apr 02, 2023 10:57 pm

Jill1960 wrote:
Sun Apr 02, 2023 10:25 pm
Thanks Paul

Seems that we are on the same page about the benefits of appointing an auditing firm with international name recognition if part of the business strategy is to attract new investors from the USA, or from elsewhere for that matter. You mentioned in one of your post a firm, BDO. I am not familiar with this firm, is BDO an abbreviation? Thanks.
European not British origin

Binder Dijker Otte. is no longer used hasn't been for quite some time

https://www.bdo.mu/en-gb/about/about-bd ... ic%20reach.
This user liked this post: Paul Waine

Jill1960
Posts: 14
Joined: Sat Apr 01, 2023 6:01 pm
Been Liked: 6 times
Has Liked: 6 times

Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by Jill1960 » Mon Apr 03, 2023 1:07 am

Thanks for the answer on BDO. Its been a few years since I worked in the US but I didn't come across them in that time whereas audits by the Big 4 were commonplace. Still its Interesting that the majority of the American-owned PL clubs use one of the Big 4 firms.

Forgive me if you’ve already covered this earlier in this thread but I took a quick look at the auditors for MSD Capital UK. They use Deloitte. As the largest creditor of BFC its quite possible they have given the ‘nudge’ to the club to switch to an auditor with whom they have more “comfort/recognition” . Just offering this up as another possible reason why the club is changing its auditors.

Chester Perry
Posts: 19167
Joined: Thu Jun 02, 2016 11:06 am
Been Liked: 3114 times
Has Liked: 481 times

Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by Chester Perry » Mon Apr 03, 2023 1:24 am

Jill1960 wrote:
Mon Apr 03, 2023 1:07 am
Thanks for the answer on BDO. Its been a few years since I worked in the US but I didn't come across them in that time whereas audits by the Big 4 were commonplace. Still its Interesting that the majority of the American-owned PL clubs use one of the Big 4 firms.

Forgive me if you’ve already covered this earlier in this thread but I took a quick look at the auditors for MSD Capital UK. They use Deloitte. As the largest creditor of BFC its quite possible they have given the ‘nudge’ to the club to switch to an auditor with whom they have more “comfort/recognition” . Just offering this up as another possible reason why the club is changing its auditors.
The unfortunate thing there is that the decision to switch auditors (as stated by the club) runs in parallel to the clubs debt with MSD being cleared (MSD cancelled their TISE listing November 17 2022

fwiw I am certain new auditors are BDO - I cannot share the source unfortunately

Paul Waine
Posts: 9845
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2016 2:28 pm
Been Liked: 2344 times
Has Liked: 3164 times

Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by Paul Waine » Mon Apr 03, 2023 7:53 am

Chester Perry wrote:
Sun Apr 02, 2023 10:57 pm
European not British origin

Binder Dijker Otte. is no longer used hasn't been for quite some time

https://www.bdo.mu/en-gb/about/about-bd ... ic%20reach.
Good correction, CP. I'd come across BDO when I started out as an auditor in UK in 1970s. I didn't know that they'd started out in Netherlands and grown
into multinational firm from there.

claretonthecoast1882
Posts: 10085
Joined: Mon Apr 09, 2018 1:59 pm
Been Liked: 4159 times
Has Liked: 57 times

Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by claretonthecoast1882 » Mon Apr 03, 2023 7:58 am

RVclaret wrote:
Sun Apr 02, 2023 5:46 pm
Thought this was well known already. Can’t believe someone as well researched as you only just got this one!
I do hope Chester didn't spend too much of his time on this breaking news that most people already knew.

Down_Rover
Posts: 1749
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 12:09 pm
Been Liked: 445 times
Has Liked: 187 times
Location: Manchester

Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by Down_Rover » Mon Apr 03, 2023 9:10 am

BDO is the 5th largest accounting firm in the world, about one third of the size of KPMG who are fourth

Quite a step up from Cassons who merged into Azets in the last year or two

Chester Perry
Posts: 19167
Joined: Thu Jun 02, 2016 11:06 am
Been Liked: 3114 times
Has Liked: 481 times

Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by Chester Perry » Mon Apr 03, 2023 12:58 pm

claretonthecoast1882 wrote:
Mon Apr 03, 2023 7:58 am
I do hope Chester didn't spend too much of his time on this breaking news that most people already knew.
Everyone knew it was the daughters - very few knew any of the names, until the BBC thing on Mormons - and as I said I came across it doing research on something else and have actually spent considerably more time talking about it since posting, than in the gathering the information

It seems some people can't resist a dig just because they believe they knew something and assumed 'everyone else did' which is patently not true given the responses

I have tended to share what I find, when I can - and let people be informed and perhaps more importantly engage in informed debate in which interpretations of the same information can be justifiably and usefully different - it is that situation that provides the greatest clarity and broadest understanding for us all. It is a case of contribute to the knowledge base or criticise those who do - the choices are both simple and stark

Vegas Claret
Posts: 30273
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2016 4:00 am
Been Liked: 10916 times
Has Liked: 5594 times
Location: clue is in the title

Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by Vegas Claret » Sun Apr 09, 2023 3:59 pm

Not sure if this has been posted, Kompany very much suggesting here that the debt has in fact been cleared
https://www.lancs.live/sport/football/f ... y-26659155
This user liked this post: Paul Waine

Chester Perry
Posts: 19167
Joined: Thu Jun 02, 2016 11:06 am
Been Liked: 3114 times
Has Liked: 481 times

Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by Chester Perry » Sun Apr 09, 2023 4:08 pm

Vegas Claret wrote:
Sun Apr 09, 2023 3:59 pm
Not sure if this has been posted, Kompany very much suggesting here that the debt has in fact been cleared
https://www.lancs.live/sport/football/f ... y-26659155
That is a bit misleading - given that the parachute payment was only enough to clear the enforced repayment in the summer - which I believe is what Kompany was actually saying. Though I believe he will know that the whole debt is now cleared.

Incidentally, I know that officially the club are saying that the MSD debt has been cleared if asked directly,

I am sticking by the notion that this was in Mid November 2022 not Feb 2023
These 2 users liked this post: Paul Waine Paul Waine

Vegas Claret
Posts: 30273
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2016 4:00 am
Been Liked: 10916 times
Has Liked: 5594 times
Location: clue is in the title

Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by Vegas Claret » Sun Apr 09, 2023 4:10 pm

Chester Perry wrote:
Sun Apr 09, 2023 4:08 pm
That is a bit misleading - given that the parachute payment was only enough to clear the enforced repayment in the summer - which I believe is what Kompany was actually saying. Though I believe he will know that the whole debt is now cleared.

Incidentally, I know that officially the club are saying that the MSD debt has been cleared if asked directly,

I am sticking by the notion that this was in Mid November 2022 not Feb 2023
He says that some of the money from transfers was also used doesn't he ?

If indeed it has all gone that's an incredible thing, just hope we can afford to bring in whoever Kompany wants this summer now !

edit: no i misread the player sales part

dsr
Posts: 15132
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 12:47 pm
Been Liked: 4548 times
Has Liked: 2241 times

Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by dsr » Sun Apr 09, 2023 4:13 pm

And when ALK repay the £150m they owe the club (maybe they have already paid part of it back?) then we'll really be in a strong position.

Paul Waine
Posts: 9845
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2016 2:28 pm
Been Liked: 2344 times
Has Liked: 3164 times

Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by Paul Waine » Sun Apr 09, 2023 4:14 pm

Vegas Claret wrote:
Sun Apr 09, 2023 3:59 pm
Not sure if this has been posted, Kompany very much suggesting here that the debt has in fact been cleared
https://www.lancs.live/sport/football/f ... y-26659155
Lancs Live reporting what Vincent Kompany said after Boro game. It fits with a lot of details we've seen on this thread and the one or two others which discuss embargo and new auditors. We will know a lot more when latest accounts are published in a few weeks time. VK spending time watching goalkeeper and maybe other players in other countries suggests there will another busy summer when the transfer window is open.

UTC
This user liked this post: Vegas Claret

Chester Perry
Posts: 19167
Joined: Thu Jun 02, 2016 11:06 am
Been Liked: 3114 times
Has Liked: 481 times

Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by Chester Perry » Sun Apr 09, 2023 4:14 pm

Vegas Claret wrote:
Sun Apr 09, 2023 4:10 pm
He says that some of the money from transfers was also used doesn't he ?

If indeed it has all gone that's an incredible thing, just hope we can afford to bring in whoever Kompany wants this summer now !

edit: no i misread the player sales part
As I said in my last London Clarets piece - ALK/VSL never do anything that backs them into a corner with reduced options - they will have options in mind that , in the way they perceive it, at least, will provide them with future opportunity
This user liked this post: Vegas Claret

Paul Waine
Posts: 9845
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2016 2:28 pm
Been Liked: 2344 times
Has Liked: 3164 times

Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by Paul Waine » Sun Apr 09, 2023 4:20 pm

Chester Perry wrote:
Sun Apr 09, 2023 4:08 pm
That is a bit misleading - given that the parachute payment was only enough to clear the enforced repayment in the summer - which I believe is what Kompany was actually saying. Though I believe he will know that the whole debt is now cleared.

Incidentally, I know that officially the club are saying that the MSD debt has been cleared if asked directly,

I am sticking by the notion that this was in Mid November 2022 not Feb 2023
How long have you known that club is "officially saying MSD debt has been cleared," CP? It would have been good to see this piece of information posted on here. It would have helped clear up the question around 3 BFC entities filing "satisfied in full" while 2 others haven't filed that info, yet.

Vegas Claret
Posts: 30273
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2016 4:00 am
Been Liked: 10916 times
Has Liked: 5594 times
Location: clue is in the title

Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by Vegas Claret » Sun Apr 09, 2023 4:30 pm

Paul Waine wrote:
Sun Apr 09, 2023 4:14 pm
Lancs Live reporting what Vincent Kompany said after Boro game. It fits with a lot of details we've seen on this thread and the one or two others which discuss embargo and new auditors. We will know a lot more when latest accounts are published in a few weeks time. VK spending time watching goalkeeper and maybe other players in other countries suggests there will another busy summer when the transfer window is open.

UTC
what was that phrase you used ? :D
This user liked this post: Paul Waine

NRC
Posts: 4288
Joined: Sat Jan 23, 2016 9:58 pm
Been Liked: 908 times
Has Liked: 107 times
Location: Containment Area for Relocated Yankees, NC

Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by NRC » Sun Apr 09, 2023 4:31 pm

dsr wrote:
Sun Apr 09, 2023 4:13 pm
And when ALK repay the £150m they owe the club (maybe they have already paid part of it back?) then we'll really be in a strong position.
Why would they repay that, or at least the bulk of it? It represents capital in usage and the opportunity cost to repay it doesn’t make sense. It will get paid back when Alan Pace and Co move on from their Burnley project from the sale of the club

Chester Perry
Posts: 19167
Joined: Thu Jun 02, 2016 11:06 am
Been Liked: 3114 times
Has Liked: 481 times

Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by Chester Perry » Sun Apr 09, 2023 4:35 pm

Paul Waine wrote:
Sun Apr 09, 2023 4:20 pm
How long have you known that club is "officially saying MSD debt has been cleared," CP? It would have been good to see this piece of information posted on here. It would have helped clear up the question around 3 BFC entities filing "satisfied in full" while 2 others haven't filed that info, yet.
Only in the last week, unfortunately I cannot say too much. As for the outstanding 'charges' I have neither seen or heard of an explanation from the club. The faith I had in the certainty of MSD's actions on TISE appears to have been well founded though.

The thing I am really looking out for on the issue now is a statement about early repayment penalties that I believe had been applied. I have them totalling £13m+ anything at that number or below would mean that ALK/VSL have got away with it rather lightly.

There is also the far from insignificant issue as to where the funds for the November repayment came from - that will certainly be an interesting revelation if made.

One thing for sure is that the statement on post period events is going to be the focus of a lot of attention on here and in the media
This user liked this post: Paul Waine

Rileybobs
Posts: 16681
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2016 4:37 pm
Been Liked: 6891 times
Has Liked: 1471 times
Location: Leeds

Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by Rileybobs » Sun Apr 09, 2023 4:38 pm

dsr wrote:
Sun Apr 09, 2023 4:13 pm
And when ALK repay the £150m they owe the club (maybe they have already paid part of it back?) then we'll really be in a strong position.
ALK don’t owe the club £150m.

Paul Waine
Posts: 9845
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2016 2:28 pm
Been Liked: 2344 times
Has Liked: 3164 times

Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by Paul Waine » Sun Apr 09, 2023 4:46 pm

Chester Perry wrote:
Sun Apr 09, 2023 4:35 pm
Only in the last week, unfortunately I cannot say too much. As for the outstanding 'charges' I have neither seen or heard of an explanation from the club. The faith I had in the certainty of MSD's actions on TISE appears to have been well founded though.

The thing I am really looking out for on the issue now is a statement about early repayment penalties that I believe had been applied. I have them totalling £13m+ anything at that number or below would mean that ALK/VSL have got away with it rather lightly.

There is also the far from insignificant issue as to where the funds for the November repayment came from - that will certainly be an interesting revelation if made.

One thing for sure is that the statement on post period events is going to be the focus of a lot of attention on here and in the media
Thanks, CP. Good to know we are on track with our thinking - and your "detective work."

Chester Perry
Posts: 19167
Joined: Thu Jun 02, 2016 11:06 am
Been Liked: 3114 times
Has Liked: 481 times

Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by Chester Perry » Sun Apr 09, 2023 4:52 pm

Rileybobs wrote:
Sun Apr 09, 2023 4:38 pm
ALK don’t owe the club £150m.
Monies have been loaned by the club to Calder Vale Holdings Limited which is 100% owned by Kettering Capital Limited - the directors of both are Alan Pace, Mike Smith and Stuart Hunt

Kettering Capital Limited is wholly owned by Velocity Sports Limited (Jersey) which we believe is wholly owned (or at least majority owned and controlled) by Velocity Sports Partners LLC in Delaware

Velocity Sports Partners LLC is majority owned and controlled by ALK Capital LLC (Delaware) whose Managing Partner is Alan Pace and Executive Partners are Mike Smith and Stuart Hunt

This is what they told the Premier League and have posted on the Club website in September 2021
BFC Company Details.JPG
BFC Company Details.JPG (219.87 KiB) Viewed 1227 times
it is therefore reasonable to suggest that the money has been lent to ALK - the amount is open to speculation

NewClaret
Posts: 13222
Joined: Tue Dec 31, 2019 9:51 am
Been Liked: 3037 times
Has Liked: 3759 times

Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by NewClaret » Sun Apr 09, 2023 5:05 pm

Vegas Claret wrote:
Sun Apr 09, 2023 3:59 pm
Not sure if this has been posted, Kompany very much suggesting here that the debt has in fact been cleared
https://www.lancs.live/sport/football/f ... y-26659155
Brilliant spot, thanks Vegas.

Hadn’t really believed it had been paid off but that sounds very, very reassuring.
This user liked this post: Vegas Claret

Paul Waine
Posts: 9845
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2016 2:28 pm
Been Liked: 2344 times
Has Liked: 3164 times

Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by Paul Waine » Sun Apr 09, 2023 5:11 pm

Chester Perry wrote:
Sun Apr 09, 2023 4:52 pm
Monies have been loaned by the club to Calder Vale Holdings Limited which is 100% owned by Kettering Capital Limited - the directors of both are Alan Pace, Mike Smith and Stuart Hunt

Kettering Capital Limited is wholly owned by Velocity Sports Limited (Jersey) which we believe is wholly owned (or at least majority owned and controlled) by Velocity Sports Partners LLC in Delaware

Velocity Sports Partners LLC is majority owned and controlled by ALK Capital LLC (Delaware) whose Managing Partner is Alan Pace and Executive Partners are Mike Smith and Stuart Hunt

This is what they told the Premier League and have posted on the Club website in September 2021

BFC Company Details.JPG

it is therefore reasonable to suggest that the money has been lent to ALK - the amount is open to speculation
Hi CP, may I suggest a small modification in the relationship between ALK Capital LLC and Velocity Sports Partners LLC: the club statement says ALK Capital holds and controls the voting rights, rather than the majority shareholding in VSP. The distinction is important. It is how ALK can invite investors in VSP, while always remaining in control of ALK/VSP shareholding in BFC. It's a common structure in many US corporate arrangements. Of course, it's very different to the group structures of publicly quoted companies.

Chester Perry
Posts: 19167
Joined: Thu Jun 02, 2016 11:06 am
Been Liked: 3114 times
Has Liked: 481 times

Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by Chester Perry » Sun Apr 09, 2023 5:18 pm

Paul Waine wrote:
Sun Apr 09, 2023 5:11 pm
Hi CP, may I suggest a small modification in the relationship between ALK Capital LLC and Velocity Sports Partners LLC: the club statement says ALK Capital holds and controls the voting rights, rather than the majority shareholding in VSP. The distinction is important. It is how ALK can invite investors in VSP, while always remaining in control of ALK/VSP shareholding in BFC. It's a common structure in many US corporate arrangements. Of course, it's very different to the group structures of publicly quoted companies.
Paul, I understand the clarifications you are making but I took this phrase

The persons having a significant interest in Velocity Sports Limited, and therefore Burnley Football & Athletic Company Limited, are Alan Pace (50.382%), Michael Smith (16.794%) and Stuart Hunt (16.794%).

as being a shareholding rather than a vote control

NewClaret
Posts: 13222
Joined: Tue Dec 31, 2019 9:51 am
Been Liked: 3037 times
Has Liked: 3759 times

Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by NewClaret » Sun Apr 09, 2023 5:19 pm

Paul Waine wrote:
Sun Apr 09, 2023 5:11 pm
Hi CP, may I suggest a small modification in the relationship between ALK Capital LLC and Velocity Sports Partners LLC: the club statement says ALK Capital holds and controls the voting rights, rather than the majority shareholding in VSP. The distinction is important. It is how ALK can invite investors in VSP, while always remaining in control of ALK/VSP shareholding in BFC. It's a common structure in many US corporate arrangements. Of course, it's very different to the group structures of publicly quoted companies.
That is a very good point PW.

Paul Waine
Posts: 9845
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2016 2:28 pm
Been Liked: 2344 times
Has Liked: 3164 times

Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by Paul Waine » Sun Apr 09, 2023 5:59 pm

Chester Perry wrote:
Sun Apr 09, 2023 5:18 pm
Paul, I understand the clarifications you are making but I took this phrase

The persons having a significant interest in Velocity Sports Limited, and therefore Burnley Football & Athletic Company Limited, are Alan Pace (50.382%), Michael Smith (16.794%) and Stuart Hunt (16.794%).

as being a shareholding rather than a vote control
We'd need to know details of constitution of VSP (US) as well as VSL (Jersey). It's quite possible that VSL issues different classes of shares, A shares, for example, with voting rights and B Shares with no voting rights. Or, any other combination that gives ALK Capital control while allowing VSP to participate in returns in agreed ratios.

Chester Perry
Posts: 19167
Joined: Thu Jun 02, 2016 11:06 am
Been Liked: 3114 times
Has Liked: 481 times

Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by Chester Perry » Sun Apr 09, 2023 6:22 pm

Paul Waine wrote:
Sun Apr 09, 2023 5:59 pm
We'd need to know details of constitution of VSP (US) as well as VSL (Jersey). It's quite possible that VSL issues different classes of shares, A shares, for example, with voting rights and B Shares with no voting rights. Or, any other combination that gives ALK Capital control while allowing VSP to participate in returns in agreed ratios.
and we know there will be little chance of finding that out

certainly would not be surprised by senior/junior shares etc
This user liked this post: Paul Waine

OffTheBar
Posts: 256
Joined: Tue May 17, 2016 7:21 am
Been Liked: 55 times
Has Liked: 13 times

Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by OffTheBar » Sun Apr 09, 2023 6:28 pm

Chester Perry wrote:
Sun Apr 09, 2023 4:35 pm

The thing I am really looking out for on the issue now is a statement about early repayment penalties that I believe had been applied. I have them totalling £13m+ anything at that number or below would mean that ALK/VSL have got away with it rather lightly.
I’m interested in the calculation for 13m. Is that a portion of the interest due, if so what percentage?

dsr
Posts: 15132
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 12:47 pm
Been Liked: 4548 times
Has Liked: 2241 times

Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by dsr » Sun Apr 09, 2023 6:33 pm

Rileybobs wrote:
Sun Apr 09, 2023 4:38 pm
ALK don’t owe the club £150m.
Just for clarity, are you saying that the club is owed £150m by some entity in the ownership group but it's not ALK, or are you saying that the club isn't owed £150m?

dsr
Posts: 15132
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 12:47 pm
Been Liked: 4548 times
Has Liked: 2241 times

Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by dsr » Sun Apr 09, 2023 6:36 pm

NRC wrote:
Sun Apr 09, 2023 4:31 pm
Why would they repay that, or at least the bulk of it? It represents capital in usage and the opportunity cost to repay it doesn’t make sense. It will get paid back when Alan Pace and Co move on from their Burnley project from the sale of the club
The reason they might feel able to pay it back is because they might feel Burnley FC would be better served by having some extra capital to spend in preparation for the PL, and thereby they would help increase the value of the investment. (Obviously if they're still skint, the question doesn't arise.)

Rileybobs
Posts: 16681
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2016 4:37 pm
Been Liked: 6891 times
Has Liked: 1471 times
Location: Leeds

Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by Rileybobs » Sun Apr 09, 2023 6:54 pm

dsr wrote:
Sun Apr 09, 2023 6:33 pm
Just for clarity, are you saying that the club is owed £150m by some entity in the ownership group but it's not ALK, or are you saying that the club isn't owed £150m?
I guess I was being a bit facetious about the ownership structure. However I will admit that this is above my head. CP’s explanation is clear and helpful, but I can’t pretend I’m interested enough in the intricacies to have a full understanding, so I shouldn’t have commented.

Post Reply