ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

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Grumps
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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by Grumps » Thu Feb 25, 2021 12:11 pm

warksclaret wrote:
Thu Feb 25, 2021 12:04 pm
Apart from a lot of public appearances/interviews/pledges made by Mr Pace throughout January, has anyone living in the Burnley area and close to the club know any details of anything thats taken place ie meetings/discussions/review of internal structure on the running of the club etc. For someone who lives 160 miles away it all seems to have gone deadly quiet, which rightly or wrongly I was expecting to change from the previous management who retained virtual silence between May of last year until year end when our Chief Exec Mr Hart gave an interview and implied a rosy situation for post take over activity. Communication and positive PR cost nothing but keep fans on board
What would you expect to be announced? That's not a dig, iam just not sure anything will have happened that they think the fans need to be informed about

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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by dsr » Thu Feb 25, 2021 12:14 pm

Grumps wrote:
Thu Feb 25, 2021 12:11 pm
What would you expect to be announced? That's not a dig, iam just not sure anything will have happened that they think the fans need to be informed about
What I would like them to announce would be on the lines of "There has been a lot of bad press saying the new owners have taken £100m out of the club to repay their own debts. Here's why it isn't true and here's what actually happened ..."

They have not made any statement to say it isn't true. Why not? Is it because they like people to think they are bad owners? Or is it because it is true? I believe it to be the latter.

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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by Chester Perry » Thu Feb 25, 2021 12:18 pm

warksclaret wrote:
Thu Feb 25, 2021 12:04 pm
Apart from a lot of public appearances/interviews/pledges made by Mr Pace throughout January, has anyone living in the Burnley area and close to the club know any details of anything thats taken place ie meetings/discussions/review of internal structure on the running of the club etc. For someone who lives 160 miles away it all seems to have gone deadly quiet, which rightly or wrongly I was expecting to change from the previous management who retained virtual silence between May of last year until year end when our Chief Exec Mr Hart gave an interview and implied a rosy situation for post take over activity. Communication and positive PR cost nothing but keep fans on board
Given that Pace is supposedly in the US and has been for a week or two you would expect that things would be quiet on the domestic front, no doubt there will be work on the integration of the women's teams into Gawthorpe - a difficult task at the best of times more so with the bubble protocols. And there will be work on the return of fans, though there is little point in making statements without a degree of certainty. I expect the return of fans to include a number of fresh approaches to pre-and post match offerings and hospitality packages. Don't be surprised to see technology used to encourage you to spend more on match days and spend longer in the club's precincts.

Until all that is in place there is little need for announcements unless it is about new partnerships and or new investment - both of which I suspect is being furiously worked on at the moment
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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by dibraidio » Thu Feb 25, 2021 12:25 pm

Integrating the ladies teams into Gawthorpe is an interesting one. Allowing them to use the pitches etc is one thing but how does it work for the changing rooms? Didn't they set it up so that there was a kind of progression from youth to first team along the corridor? Do they need a new building for the ladies teams? Presumably there will be youth teams for the girls too?

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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by fatboy47 » Thu Feb 25, 2021 12:27 pm

Boss Hogg wrote:
Wed Feb 24, 2021 6:19 pm
Please can we put an end to saying ‘Exciting Times’
Have no fear...that little symptom of denial will die its own death...probably towards the end of the next transfer window.

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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by GodIsADeeJay81 » Thu Feb 25, 2021 1:05 pm

KRBFC wrote:
Thu Feb 25, 2021 11:39 am
I've never claimed to be a football finance expert, my thoughts on this takeover have nothing to do with having a bad run. I never dismissed the effects of Covid on football, I called fake news to you claiming Covid ate up our £50M bank balance. Its very easy for people like you to have a passing interest in BFC because you can just change your team again, that isn't the case for most supporters like DC pointed out.
Covid will eat up a large chunk of that balance though, it's been shown on here but as I've said you're not really interested in learning, so why you keep commenting on anything to do with the takeover and football finances is beyond my comprehension.

Anyone can change team, I'm not the first to switch to Burnley and the attendance at Wembley proves I wasn't the only one that day :lol:
For the club to grow it will need to attract more fans around the country and the world, suck it up sunshine, there will be more like me.

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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by GodIsADeeJay81 » Thu Feb 25, 2021 1:07 pm

dsr wrote:
Thu Feb 25, 2021 12:14 pm
What I would like them to announce would be on the lines of "There has been a lot of bad press saying the new owners have taken £100m out of the club to repay their own debts. Here's why it isn't true and here's what actually happened ..."

They have not made any statement to say it isn't true. Why not? Is it because they like people to think they are bad owners? Or is it because it is true? I believe it to be the latter.
Maybe they know its a waste of time with the media over here.
Let then speculate, they're bored and doing whatever they want right now, as shown with Talksport linking Dyche to Celtic.

The Glazers rarely say anything about Utd, because they aren't interested in playing games with the media.

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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by KRBFC » Thu Feb 25, 2021 2:34 pm

GodIsADeeJay81 wrote:
Thu Feb 25, 2021 1:05 pm
Covid will eat up a large chunk of that balance though, it's been shown on here but as I've said you're not really interested in learning, so why you keep commenting on anything to do with the takeover and football finances is beyond my comprehension.

Anyone can change team
You keep saying Covid will eat up a large chunk of the £50M built up and say I have no interest in learning without providing any kind of proof, I know you like to act intelligent but please provide some kind of informational piece to backup your claims.

and as for ''anyone can change teams'', this is the part you wont understand through no fault of your own because people can't change teams like their underpants, it's just not how it works for alot of people on here imo. I actually tried it with NFL, new sport and I tried picking a team, it lasted a couple of games until I felt no emotional connection to the team.

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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by KRBFC » Thu Feb 25, 2021 2:37 pm

warksclaret wrote:
Thu Feb 25, 2021 12:04 pm
Apart from a lot of public appearances/interviews/pledges made by Mr Pace throughout January, has anyone living in the Burnley area and close to the club know any details of anything thats taken place ie meetings/discussions/review of internal structure on the running of the club etc. For someone who lives 160 miles away it all seems to have gone deadly quiet, which rightly or wrongly I was expecting to change from the previous management who retained virtual silence between May of last year until year end when our Chief Exec Mr Hart gave an interview and implied a rosy situation for post take over activity. Communication and positive PR cost nothing but keep fans on board
I expected a major overhaul behind the scenes, starting with the recruitment team.

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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by KRBFC » Thu Feb 25, 2021 2:43 pm

GodIsADeeJay81 wrote:
Thu Feb 25, 2021 1:07 pm

The Glazers rarely say anything about Utd, because they aren't interested in playing games with the media.
They're too busy plunging Man United into debt and taking out over £1Bn for themselves.

Didn't the Glazers also buy United with very little of their own money?

Plunged the club into huge debt, paying the interest with no concern of reducing the debt, just happy to strip the club of all profits for their own gain.

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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by GodIsADeeJay81 » Thu Feb 25, 2021 3:20 pm

KRBFC wrote:
Thu Feb 25, 2021 2:43 pm
They're too busy plunging Man United into debt and taking out over £1Bn for themselves.

Didn't the Glazers also buy United with very little of their own money?

Plunged the club into huge debt, paying the interest with no concern of reducing the debt, just happy to strip the club of all profits for their own gain.
Just give it a rest about finances.
You don't understand, you probably never will and you've made it clear you don't want to know.

Everything has been explained multiple times on here for people to read and understand.
That includes the effects of Covid on the TV deals and club finances, how Glazers grew Utd's revenue to £1 billion annually thus enabling them to service their debt and still be able to compete for titles/players etc.

Short of using crayons and big letters for you, I'm not sure what else can be done to help you understand.

You ask me for proof, but you're ignoring all the work Chester and others have done on here, any links that are given proving there is a rebate for last seasons TV money which costs the club £14 million alone for a portion of the season and there will be one for this season which could well be bigger for the whole season.

You're being wilfully ignorant, then gobbing off about it and whinging that the club isn't spending.

Until you prove you've managed to get a basic understanding of the clubs finances into your head then we won't talk money again, I may as well whizz into the wind for all the good it will do.

Have a good day

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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by DCWat » Thu Feb 25, 2021 3:32 pm

GodIsADeeJay81 wrote:
Thu Feb 25, 2021 1:05 pm
so why you keep commenting on anything to do with the takeover and football finances is beyond my comprehension.
FFS you make it hard to be civil at times! It’s comments like this that really wind me up.

Why the hell should a long-standing supporter of Burnley not take an interest in the takeover of the club and what it might mean for the future?

I know little of your background apart from the few bits that you mentioned, perhaps umpteen chapters back, on this thread.

None of them pointed to you having the level of acumen relating to football finance or the Burnley takeover. I may be wrong and I don’t mean to offend, but the only difference to me between what you are presenting and others such as KRBFC are presenting, is that one is positive about the takeover, the other sceptical.

You seem to be aligning yourself alongside those on here that obviously do have knowledge and experience in finance, seemingly though, without the same wealth of understanding.

You’re criticisms of others may be more tolerable if you yourself were backing up your views with a little more than cliche.

Accept others have different views and debate them, don’t suggest they shouldn’t even comment!

Edit - and it continues in the follow on post!
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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by GodIsADeeJay81 » Thu Feb 25, 2021 4:20 pm

DCWat wrote:
Thu Feb 25, 2021 3:32 pm
FFS you make it hard to be civil at times! It’s comments like this that really wind me up.

Why the hell should a long-standing supporter of Burnley not take an interest in the takeover of the club and what it might mean for the future?

I know little of your background apart from the few bits that you mentioned, perhaps umpteen chapters back, on this thread.

None of them pointed to you having the level of acumen relating to football finance or the Burnley takeover. I may be wrong and I don’t mean to offend, but the only difference to me between what you are presenting and others such as KRBFC are presenting, is that one is positive about the takeover, the other sceptical.

You seem to be aligning yourself alongside those on here that obviously do have knowledge and experience in finance, seemingly though, without the same wealth of understanding.

You’re criticisms of others may be more tolerable if you yourself were backing up your views with a little more than cliche.

Accept others have different views and debate them, don’t suggest they shouldn’t even comment!

Edit - and it continues in the follow on post!
If you'd read everything I'd said, you'd see where I've said KRBFC has repeatedly stated he isn't interested in the financial side of the club, even calling the effects of Covid on football finances as fake news.

That's why I've made the comment you've highlighted, because he isn't interested in learning and understanding what's gone on these last 12 months.

I've been civil, despite his little digs, but I'm not going to waste my time chatting to someone who's made it clear they're not going to take the time to read and understand all the information on here.

Even in regards to Utd it's been shown on here how Glazers have overseen a massive growth in incoming revenue and he still doesn't understand it, he just looks at what the owners take out of the club.
He's wilfully ignorant and whilst you might be willing to defend his ignorance, I'm not interested in conversing with him anymore until he's shown the capability of understanding it.

I could explain it to my 2 teenage sons and they'd have a better comprehension of it than he does, it wouldn't take me as long to explain and it wouldn't need to be done time and time again.

In regards to running a football club, you're right, I've never done it, but it's a business and I've ran several businesses, worked to a budget and grown businesses so I can increase my budget and the principle is the same.

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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by DCWat » Thu Feb 25, 2021 4:30 pm

Perhaps better only to reply to ones that you’re happy to give a reasonable response to?

The crayon analogy and others are only going to incite more bickering, which I think we all agree, the board is better for not having.

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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by dermotdermot » Thu Feb 25, 2021 4:31 pm

Testing

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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by dermotdermot » Thu Feb 25, 2021 4:33 pm

Testing

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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by BurnleyFC » Thu Feb 25, 2021 4:36 pm

1,2,3

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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by GodIsADeeJay81 » Thu Feb 25, 2021 4:43 pm

DCWat wrote:
Thu Feb 25, 2021 4:30 pm
Perhaps better only to reply to ones that you’re happy to give a reasonable response to?

The crayon analogy and others are only going to incite more bickering, which I think we all agree, the board is better for not having.
I've given reasonable replies to him, several of them.

I've just reached the end of being reasonable with someone who's wilfully ignorant but then has the nerve to try and batter the club over stuff like this.

Maybe you spend the time explaining it to him, he might listen to you.

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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by KRBFC » Thu Feb 25, 2021 4:54 pm

GodIsADeeJay81 wrote:
Thu Feb 25, 2021 3:20 pm
Just give it a rest about finances.
You don't understand, you probably never will and you've made it clear you don't want to know.

Everything has been explained multiple times on here for people to read and understand.
That includes the effects of Covid on the TV deals and club finances, how Glazers grew Utd's revenue to £1 billion annually thus enabling them to service their debt and still be able to compete for titles/players etc.

Short of using crayons and big letters for you, I'm not sure what else can be done to help you understand.

You ask me for proof, but you're ignoring all the work Chester and others have done on here, any links that are given proving there is a rebate for last seasons TV money which costs the club £14 million alone for a portion of the season and there will be one for this season which could well be bigger for the whole season.

You're being wilfully ignorant, then gobbing off about it and whinging that the club isn't spending.

Until you prove you've managed to get a basic understanding of the clubs finances into your head then we won't talk money again, I may as well whizz into the wind for all the good it will do.

Have a good day
You say I make it clear I don't want to know but I'm asking you to provide some information for me to read? Instead I receive belittling responses and snidey comments.

and as for the Glazers, sure they grew the already arguably biggest club in the world but what are they putting in? they're taking away while running up debts.

You're also putting words into my mouth, I never said Garlick took anything and neither did I say Covid impacting football finance was fake news, I said it was fake news it wiped out all of our £50M balance.

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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by KRBFC » Thu Feb 25, 2021 5:02 pm

On the Rebate, I read this..

''For now, the Premier League has reportedly negotiated a settlement which will see Sky pay its entire scheduled fees on time for the remainder of the current season and for 2020/21, thus protecting cash flows for top-flight sides in the immediate future.''

''Premier League executives are still to finalise an agreement with its other domestic broadcasters, but they expect those agreements ‘will follow a similar profile’, according to the settlement document seen by the Athletic. The document also reportedly reveals that the UK£107 million owed to international broadcasters must be repaid in full by the end of July 2020.''

So how has it wiped out our £50M balance?

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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by KRBFC » Thu Feb 25, 2021 5:09 pm

So the figure owed is £13.4M, 10.7% of income from last season, no rebates have been paid, repayments will start at the end of the current season. Again, this hasn't wiped out our £50M balance. So Covid wiping out our entire balance looks like fake news to me. I look forward to some factual information in response to disprove my claim but I expect more typical ''you don't understand, I do understand because I'm more intelligent''.

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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by GodIsADeeJay81 » Thu Feb 25, 2021 6:05 pm

IMG_20210225_174509.jpg
IMG_20210225_174509.jpg (447.19 KiB) Viewed 3277 times
https://twitter.com/SwissRamble/status/ ... 71776?s=19

Financial figures from the 2018-19 season as they're the last lot that have been broken down so we can work with these quite easily.

As has been explained, we are facing a rebate on TV monies of £14 million ish for just a portion of last season.
We also lost a chunk of matchday revenue, which for the entirety of 18-19 was £6.3 million.
Then catering etc.

So for last season we have lost a chunk of matchday revenue, let's guesstimate £2 million, plus a rebate of £14 million.
The club shop was closed for a while, so we can assume that revenue was down there too, but I'm not going to add it in.

At the moment we stand at £16 million in reduced revenue.
Factor in possible rebates on advertising revenue etc and we could probably add more onto that.

Now this season we've had no matchday revenue, so that's £6.3 million we don't have coming in, plus any extra retail sales on the day, because the shop is usually quite busy whenever I've visited and that leads to later retail sales.

So that's £6.3 million, plus whatever rebate we will have for this season.
Considering it was £14 million for a chunk of last season, its not unreasonable to expect that number to be a lot higher.

If use £14 million as a base point, added to loss of matchday revenue we are at £20 million ish.

£16 million from last season added to £20 million from this puts us at £36 million worse off.

Our shirt sponsor has also negotiated a rebate on their deal for this season and next season, plus other advertisers will be expecting the same, but I don't have those numbers available and haven't seen them on here that I recall.

We had a cash balance at the end of 2018-19 of £40 million, which is reputed to be £50 million last summer.

£50 million was in the bank for whenever we needed it, and it is needed just to cover the losses for last season which we've guesstimate at £16 million and the club usually thinks long term so they should've been considering this season costing them even more.

So the one and a half seasons of no matchday revenue, TV monies rebate, sponsorship and advertising rebates easily takes up 2/3rds of that £50 million.

It's also worth considering the fact that last summer the club couldn't predict how this season was going to pan out, ie a full season being played, stop starts again or cancelled entirely.
We'd still have players and other staff to pay, running costs etc.
Potentially they were facing much larger reductions in incoming money than we are talking about here.

At the time the club didn't know if the takeover would be completed, or when as it had been ongoing for several months already by last summer.

We didn't lay many people off really, or do much with furlough that I can recall, and we didn't take any loans out from the Banks like several larger clubs did, nor did we do what Saints and Derby did by using MSD for example to borrow money just for day to day running costs.

Also, the club has lost a seasons worth of Season ticket sales, which I don't know if they're included in Matchday revenue, but if not that's about £2 million + if I remember rightly from the free season ticket deal the club did when it got promoted under Coyle that time.

£50 million sounds like a lot of money to average people like me and you, but when you break it all down it doesn't stretch far.

Hope this helps, have a good day.
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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by KRBFC » Thu Feb 25, 2021 7:06 pm

GodIsADeeJay81 wrote:
Thu Feb 25, 2021 6:05 pm
IMG_20210225_174509.jpg

https://twitter.com/SwissRamble/status/ ... 71776?s=19

Financial figures from the 2018-19 season as they're the last lot that have been broken down so we can work with these quite easily.

As has been explained, we are facing a rebate on TV monies of £14 million ish for just a portion of last season.
We also lost a chunk of matchday revenue, which for the entirety of 18-19 was £6.3 million.
Then catering etc.

So for last season we have lost a chunk of matchday revenue, let's guesstimate £2 million, plus a rebate of £14 million.
The club shop was closed for a while, so we can assume that revenue was down there too, but I'm not going to add it in.

At the moment we stand at £16 million in reduced revenue.
Factor in possible rebates on advertising revenue etc and we could probably add more onto that.

Now this season we've had no matchday revenue, so that's £6.3 million we don't have coming in, plus any extra retail sales on the day, because the shop is usually quite busy whenever I've visited and that leads to later retail sales.

So that's £6.3 million, plus whatever rebate we will have for this season.
Considering it was £14 million for a chunk of last season, its not unreasonable to expect that number to be a lot higher.

If use £14 million as a base point, added to loss of matchday revenue we are at £20 million ish.

£16 million from last season added to £20 million from this puts us at £36 million worse off.

Our shirt sponsor has also negotiated a rebate on their deal for this season and next season, plus other advertisers will be expecting the same, but I don't have those numbers available and haven't seen them on here that I recall.

We had a cash balance at the end of 2018-19 of £40 million, which is reputed to be £50 million last summer.

£50 million was in the bank for whenever we needed it, and it is needed just to cover the losses for last season which we've guesstimate at £16 million and the club usually thinks long term so they should've been considering this season costing them even more.

So the one and a half seasons of no matchday revenue, TV monies rebate, sponsorship and advertising rebates easily takes up 2/3rds of that £50 million.

It's also worth considering the fact that last summer the club couldn't predict how this season was going to pan out, ie a full season being played, stop starts again or cancelled entirely.
We'd still have players and other staff to pay, running costs etc.
Potentially they were facing much larger reductions in incoming money than we are talking about here.

At the time the club didn't know if the takeover would be completed, or when as it had been ongoing for several months already by last summer.

We didn't lay many people off really, or do much with furlough that I can recall, and we didn't take any loans out from the Banks like several larger clubs did, nor did we do what Saints and Derby did by using MSD for example to borrow money just for day to day running costs.

Also, the club has lost a seasons worth of Season ticket sales, which I don't know if they're included in Matchday revenue, but if not that's about £2 million + if I remember rightly from the free season ticket deal the club did when it got promoted under Coyle that time.

£50 million sounds like a lot of money to average people like me and you, but when you break it all down it doesn't stretch far.

Hope this helps, have a good day.
Being down on matchday revenue doesn't explain how it's affected our £50M balance though, that money was built up from previous years with leftovers. The extra money brought in from last seasons league position more than covers that loss (even after the rebate). Also the rebate hasn't been paid out yet, payments don't start until the end of the current season, I'd guess we aren't expected to payoff in one lump sum, from the wording it sounds like repayments will start in stages at the end of the current season. Again, this hasn't affected the money in the bank yet.

Has anyone got refunds for season tickets? I know many haven't. Non of these fees really scrape the barrel in terms of the income we received from last seasons place (roughly £130M). We spent nothing in the summer window (Gibson reported loan fee wipes out Stephens fee) and nothing in January, thus saving money on any transfers in either window. We also lost a number of first team players, including some high earners, thus slightly trimming the wage bill. There will have been more than enough leftover from the PL income to run the club day to day, especially to cover minor Covid costs like club shop closed.

I see no evidence to suggest Covid has impacted the £50M heavily, that number was reported by many financially knowledgeable journalists as being in the club coffers in 2021.

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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by GodIsADeeJay81 » Thu Feb 25, 2021 7:52 pm

This is why I said I wouldn't bother anymore.

It's all laid out, explained, costed with an accurate starting base for a year of normal revenue etc and still you can't see it.

Well, at least I tried, now we are definitely done.

Have a good night.

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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by KRBFC » Thu Feb 25, 2021 8:49 pm

GodIsADeeJay81 wrote:
Thu Feb 25, 2021 7:52 pm
This is why I said I wouldn't bother anymore.

It's all laid out, explained, costed with an accurate starting base for a year of normal revenue etc and still you can't see it.

Well, at least I tried, now we are definitely done.

Have a good night.
You mentioned things already covered from saving in the market, extra income from higher placed finish and players leaving. If you trim £13.7M from our reported £130M income for last season, we still have more than enough to cover day to day running with leftovers. Btw losing 2 million in matchday revenue doesn't automatically reduce it from the cash we have in the bank.

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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by GodIsADeeJay81 » Thu Feb 25, 2021 9:54 pm

KRBFC wrote:
Thu Feb 25, 2021 8:49 pm
You mentioned things already covered from saving in the market, extra income from higher placed finish and players leaving. If you trim £13.7M from our reported £130M income for last season, we still have more than enough to cover day to day running with leftovers. Btw losing 2 million in matchday revenue doesn't automatically reduce it from the cash we have in the bank.
If you spend that money what do you replace to with if the club aren't issuing season tickets for this season and are going to allow the fans to purchase for the following season using the money they've handed over for this seasons St's?

The club didn't know last summer if this season was going to go ahead and/or be completed in full.
If the season hadn't gone ahead then there's the very real chance we would've got zero TV revenue, that's the worse case scenario, the £50 million doesn't even cover the wage bill, plus club sponsors would want rebates etc.

Annual Budgets are based on both past and projected future revenue, but if a business cannot be certain on future revenue, they'll rightly hold off on making large outlays.

2018/19 finances determined the budget for the 2019/20 season and so on.
The issue was the 2019/20 season threw up some obstacles that no club has had to face before and they didn't know if the 2020/21 finances would be predictable, or the following 2021/22 season because the initial gov Covid updates suggested a vaccine wasn't going to be ready until later in 2021...the only reason a vaccine is here now is because of the scientific community smashing this achievement right out of the ball park.

For the 19 other clubs in the league it was less of an issue than it was for us, they all run at a loss or already have massive debts etc, we didn't do either.
Most of them have no concerns about borrowing money from anywhere they can get it, whether it's the banks, the likes of MSD or their owners covering losses.

In football a large outlay is a player.
What does £50 million buy?
Not an effing lot most of the time when you factor in transfer fee, agents fee, signing on fee and then you have to allow for wages in the new seasons budget.
A big problem is many football fans only look at the transfer fee, not the rest of it, but also with Hart, Lennon and Hendrick going other clubs who really needed the money were potentially going to jack up their asking prices to cover their own Covid losses.
(We miss Hendrick's versatility and reliability this season)

We didn't have much of a flutter in the transfer market as a result, I'm not saying that was the right thing to do, BUT I fully understand why we didn't as I've outlined numerous times on here.
(The silver lining for the young lads is they've got some first team game times, even if they haven't excelled every time, these experiences will help them develop and allow our staff to judge if they've got what it takes to become regulars in the first team squad)

People need to start thinking about how things were back then for businesses and not how things are now where we know for definite that next season will be on with fans in the ground.
There were some tough decisions to make for Burnley, but they went with what they thought was best for the long term and right now I'd say they got it right.

We are having fitness issues right now because we are playing a large number of games in a short space of time so the players can't get enough rest etc.
13 games in 6 weeks is tough, especially as other teams like WBA are playing once a week.
Our lads are knackered and it won't help with the 2 glass wingers being injured, again :roll:

This break between games of about 8 days will do our lot a world of good and I'd expect to see the lads have a bit more fuel in the tank in the next game than we've seen recently.
Then we've got a 2 week break at the end of March which will be massively good for our team with the end of season run coming.
We are lucky that this is genuinely in our own hands as to whether or not we stay up, the only people we need to rely on are ourselves, not other results but it is handy that Newcastle are dropping and Brighton aren't having a good time of it either with their fancy football.
We were absolutely utter toss the other night against WBA but that point was important.

Now if you tell me you're not getting it again, I'm gonna have to get the crayons out :lol:

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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by KRBFC » Fri Feb 26, 2021 12:07 am

GodIsADeeJay81 wrote:
Thu Feb 25, 2021 9:54 pm
If you spend that money what do you replace to with if the club aren't issuing season tickets for this season and are going to allow the fans to purchase for the following season using the money they've handed over for this seasons St's?

The club didn't know last summer if this season was going to go ahead and/or be completed in full.
If the season hadn't gone ahead then there's the very real chance we would've got zero TV revenue, that's the worse case scenario, the £50 million doesn't even cover the wage bill, plus club sponsors would want rebates etc.

Annual Budgets are based on both past and projected future revenue, but if a business cannot be certain on future revenue, they'll rightly hold off on making large outlays.

2018/19 finances determined the budget for the 2019/20 season and so on.
The issue was the 2019/20 season threw up some obstacles that no club has had to face before and they didn't know if the 2020/21 finances would be predictable, or the following 2021/22 season because the initial gov Covid updates suggested a vaccine wasn't going to be ready until later in 2021...the only reason a vaccine is here now is because of the scientific community smashing this achievement right out of the ball park.

For the 19 other clubs in the league it was less of an issue than it was for us, they all run at a loss or already have massive debts etc, we didn't do either.
Most of them have no concerns about borrowing money from anywhere they can get it, whether it's the banks, the likes of MSD or their owners covering losses.

In football a large outlay is a player.
What does £50 million buy?
Not an effing lot most of the time when you factor in transfer fee, agents fee, signing on fee and then you have to allow for wages in the new seasons budget.
A big problem is many football fans only look at the transfer fee, not the rest of it, but also with Hart, Lennon and Hendrick going other clubs who really needed the money were potentially going to jack up their asking prices to cover their own Covid losses.
(We miss Hendrick's versatility and reliability this season)

We didn't have much of a flutter in the transfer market as a result, I'm not saying that was the right thing to do, BUT I fully understand why we didn't as I've outlined numerous times on here.
(The silver lining for the young lads is they've got some first team game times, even if they haven't excelled every time, these experiences will help them develop and allow our staff to judge if they've got what it takes to become regulars in the first team squad)

People need to start thinking about how things were back then for businesses and not how things are now where we know for definite that next season will be on with fans in the ground.
There were some tough decisions to make for Burnley, but they went with what they thought was best for the long term and right now I'd say they got it right.



Now if you tell me you're not getting it again, I'm gonna have to get the crayons out :lol:
I understand your point, the club built up £50M to use when desperately needed, my point is, the income from last seasons league position should cover everything given we didn't spend in the market and lost players thus dropping our wages to what? certainly less than £75M I'd assume. Financial journalists reported 2 months ago the club had approx £50M in the bank, in the past two months, has Covid impacted this? Sure we lost £6m in matchday revenue but that £6M was obviously cut from other budgets in the summer, mainly our transfer budget. Either that money has been used in the sale or it's still largely there, I don't know which but there's no way that money was eaten by Covid, like no way, the figures just don't add up. I get your point about the future £13.7M rebate due at the end of the current season, I assume that's paid in installments.

Let me ask you for a better breakdown of what you think, a simpler one. Income from last season: £130M, breakdown our spend and see what's leftover. (it was reported £10-15M of that went into the club coffers to supplement the £35-40M that was reportedly already there), fag packet calculations, we can even remove the £13.7m future rebate if you want.

I think you are arguing a complete opposite point to me, my argument is against the claim Covid ate away the £50M in the club coffers, which doesn't even make sense given journalists have been reporting that £50M was used in the takeover, so it must've still been there.

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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by Bordeauxclaret » Fri Feb 26, 2021 7:41 am

So to sum up, income has gone down, expenditure has gone down.
We just don’t know by how much yet.

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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by dsr » Fri Feb 26, 2021 9:21 am

GodIsADeeJay81 wrote:
Thu Feb 25, 2021 6:05 pm
Financial figures from the 2018-19 season as they're the last lot that have been broken down so we can work with these quite easily.

...

£16 million from last season added to £20 million from this puts us at £36 million worse off.

...

£50 million was in the bank for whenever we needed it, and it is needed just to cover the losses for last season which we've guesstimate at £16 million and the club usually thinks long term so they should've been considering this season costing them even more.

So the one and a half seasons of no matchday revenue, TV monies rebate, sponsorship and advertising rebates easily takes up 2/3rds of that £50 million.

It's also worth considering the fact that last summer the club couldn't predict how this season was going to pan out, ie a full season being played, stop starts again or cancelled entirely.
We'd still have players and other staff to pay, running costs etc.
Potentially they were facing much larger reductions in incoming money than we are talking about here.

At the time the club didn't know if the takeover would be completed, or when as it had been ongoing for several months already by last summer.

We didn't lay many people off really, or do much with furlough that I can recall, and we didn't take any loans out from the Banks like several larger clubs did, nor did we do what Saints and Derby did by using MSD for example to borrow money just for day to day running costs.

Also, the club has lost a seasons worth of Season ticket sales, which I don't know if they're included in Matchday revenue, but if not that's about £2 million + if I remember rightly from the free season ticket deal the club did when it got promoted under Coyle that time.

£50 million sounds like a lot of money to average people like me and you, but when you break it all down it doesn't stretch far.

Hope this helps, have a good day.
It all helps, but there is a bit missing. You're starting from a cash balance, assuming there would be no change to the cash balance in a normal year, and making deductions. You need to factor in the normal cash flow.

Look half way down the page - the figures of £37m and £44m EBIDTA = Earnings before interest, depreciation, taxation, amortisation. This is the "normal" cash profit for the year. It is reduced by amount spent on new players (which we know isn't much), and by taxes paid, and increased by player sales (again, not much). Those deductions from income are at least in part, and very probably in full, offset by the normal profit.

Without Covid, we would have expected once again that our trading profit and no player purchases would have increased the cash pot. At least some of the cash losses will have come out of trading income, not prior reserves.

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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by KRBFC » Fri Feb 26, 2021 3:33 pm

dsr wrote:
Fri Feb 26, 2021 9:21 am
It all helps, but there is a bit missing. You're starting from a cash balance, assuming there would be no change to the cash balance in a normal year, and making deductions. You need to factor in the normal cash flow.

Look half way down the page - the figures of £37m and £44m EBIDTA = Earnings before interest, depreciation, taxation, amortisation. This is the "normal" cash profit for the year. It is reduced by amount spent on new players (which we know isn't much), and by taxes paid, and increased by player sales (again, not much). Those deductions from income are at least in part, and very probably in full, offset by the normal profit.

Without Covid, we would have expected once again that our trading profit and no player purchases would have increased the cash pot. At least some of the cash losses will have come out of trading income, not prior reserves.
So I'm right to assume cash reserves shouldn't have been entirely wiped out from covid? if that money's still there after the takeover is another story I guess.

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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by Chester Perry » Fri Feb 26, 2021 3:42 pm

KRBFC wrote:
Fri Feb 26, 2021 3:33 pm
So I'm right to assume cash reserves shouldn't have been entirely wiped out from covid? if that money's still there after the takeover is another story I guess.
yes, I have been saying the same since last April and that famous statement from Mike Garlick where almost everyone missed the "IF"

It doesn't mean that Revenues and their forecasts haven't significantly reduced, which have similarly and directly affected our budgets for outgoings as the club has continued with the policy of break-even with a 17th placed finish, something which doesn't appear to be changing under the new ownership. They may have different forecasts for revenues based on beliefs to grow commercial incomes but they have a lot to prove on that front.
Last edited by Chester Perry on Fri Feb 26, 2021 3:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by KRBFC » Fri Feb 26, 2021 3:45 pm

Chester Perry wrote:
Fri Feb 26, 2021 3:42 pm
yes, I have been saying the same since last April and that famous statement from Mike Garlick where almost everyone missed the "IF"
Not sure why Sidney was so adamant I was wrong and telling me to read your posts then. Are we likely to make profit from last year, even with Covid?

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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by Chester Perry » Fri Feb 26, 2021 4:03 pm

KRBFC wrote:
Fri Feb 26, 2021 3:45 pm
Not sure why Sidney was so adamant I was wrong and telling me to read your posts then. Are we likely to make profit from last year, even with Covid?
Depends on how we take the hit and there is the small matter of 13 months of wages in the accounting period, I was arguing in May/June last year that we could still post a profit, and certainly a cash surplus, even suggesting revenues of £150m or so if rebates did not affect the accounting periods central distribution payments, they didn't but there was advanced notice of when they would and of a proportion of how much it would be.

There has been enormous confusion over the "dry powder store" down the years, there are many possible reasons for why it has been allowed to build up - the popular one of facilitating the a leveraged buy out is my most unlikely, even though that is what happened - I have always maintained that the reason it wasn't used for transfers is that there was no space in the break-even budget for the additional wages, a ceiling set by revenues. The Pandemic has wiped out the revenue gain we had in the summer which would have allowed for significant incoming transfers - something I have again mentioned repeatedly. The contract extensions this season that Dyche has campaigned for so vigorously will have impact on future budgets and limit our ability to bring in fresh talent. The ones that left last summer would have in normal circumstances allowed to buy 2 first team ready players - I am not seeing that in the next 2 - 3 years now without losing one or more of our stars. If Brady does go then there may be a space there but more likely for a squad member than an automatic starter. The thing is we still do not know about rebates for this season and how the loss of the China TV revenue is going to be absorbed

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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by dsr » Fri Feb 26, 2021 4:25 pm

KRBFC wrote:
Fri Feb 26, 2021 3:45 pm
Not sure why Sidney was so adamant I was wrong and telling me to read your posts then. Are we likely to make profit from last year, even with Covid?
I expect so. Over the past few years we have made £30m+ cash profit each year before taking into account player purchases and sales. As we have spent very little on player purchases recently, I would expect that even with the covid hit we should still have made a cash profit.
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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by NewClaret » Sat Feb 27, 2021 12:16 pm

Chester Perry wrote:
Mon Feb 22, 2021 6:43 pm
The existing Domestic partners - Sky, BT, Amazon and the BBC - are getting the additional games free, in the "hope", there is no publicly stated agreement, that they do not ask for a rebate this season - these broadcasters have forced the schedule where it is rare for games to be be on at the same time. They have also established that the additional !80 games that the Premier League were hoping to use to maintain or grow domestic revenues are actually not worth very much or anything at all to them. Apart from the BBC I do not think they particularly want or need them.

there is also the consequential impact of broadcasting all the games domestically in this format, which is international broadcasters are having a significant number of games they have paid for at peak local audience times moved to times and days that are significantly less audience friendly to them. There is no word yet but they will be looking for a rebate, particularly for a whole season without fans in attendance.

So last season there was a reported £330m in rebates - the Premier League paid the £160m to international broadcasters last season and the £170m to domestic broadcasters was to be deducted out of this and next seasons payments. from a central distribution perspective a full payment was made to Premier League clubs with notice that the rebate share per club would be calculated over last season and this season and deducted from this season and next season central payments - our share from last season is £13.4 m (as per the Premier League Handbook), we will find out at the share calculated this season at the end of the season (as it involves merit payments as well)/

None of that accounts for the £320m+ shortfall on the China TV deal - and we still do not know who or what the deal is like for next season except it will not be the £175m or so that was signed at the beginning of the cycle. If you consider we will be paying circa £25m+ for a £330m deficit last season, you can imagine that it is likely to be £40m+ for a £450m+ deficit. We just do not know how or even when that is going to hit the clubs.

As you can see there are a lot of shortfalls that are still to be confirmed but we know that they are waiting down stream
Sorry for the delayed reply - busy week.

Very informative. I think in the end we know we have headwinds but don’t know how big they are or when they’ll hit us, so hard to speculate.

Setting aside the international picture, where I accept the arguments, I think the PL will have missed a massive opportunity if they have allowed Sky/BT to screen 2/3rds more games than they were contracted to, just in return for avoiding rebates. I don’t get the fans point either (domestically), since their revenue is generated not from match going fans but from subscriptions and advertising, both of which must have increased with fans a) having more time on their hands with nothing else to do and b) treble the amount of games being aired. I for example have subscribed to BT and Amazon & not cancelled yet as a result (although I’d have happily paid for the PPV at £15).

I would’ve negotiated at least a share in the increased subscription/advertising revenues to partially offset the reductions internationally. Ultimately, I see Sky/BT as the blockbusters of sports content. They just resell someone else’s product. There’s every chance the PL could Netflix them and go straight to market and make more money, so part of my negotiations would’ve been promising to delay that model if they supported the PL through this period. Rebates are short-sighted and somewhat profiteering in that sense - Sky/BT should see the value in continuing to invest in a product they want to thrive post-Covid.

Long-term I am still very bullish about the prospects for elite sporting TV revenues increasing. It’s the best possible theatre. They do need to crack illegal streaming somehow though.

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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by bodge » Sat Feb 27, 2021 12:21 pm

TV revenues will definitely be increasing, just had a letter from Sky saying the Sky Sports package is going up £2 from April, inevitable i suppose.

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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by NewClaret » Sat Feb 27, 2021 12:28 pm

bodge wrote:
Sat Feb 27, 2021 12:21 pm
TV revenues will definitely be increasing, just had a letter from Sky saying the Sky Sports package is going up £2 from April, inevitable i suppose.
That might be one of your deals ending?

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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by Grumps » Sat Feb 27, 2021 1:05 pm

NewClaret wrote:
Sat Feb 27, 2021 12:28 pm
That might be one of your deals ending?
All packages going up for everyone

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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by NewClaret » Sat Feb 27, 2021 1:16 pm

Grumps wrote:
Sat Feb 27, 2021 1:05 pm
All packages going up for everyone
:(

They’ve not written to me.

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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by Chester Perry » Sat Feb 27, 2021 1:23 pm

bodge wrote:
Sat Feb 27, 2021 12:21 pm
TV revenues will definitely be increasing, just had a letter from Sky saying the Sky Sports package is going up £2 from April, inevitable i suppose.
or it might be going to pay some of the £20 billion + that Comcast borrowed to buy Sky in 2019

as for broadcast rights increasing - this is an hour well worth spending on the subject - from the MMT thread that has been looking at the subject in great detail for over 3 years now
Chester Perry wrote:
Tue Feb 23, 2021 1:36 pm
Essential viewing for anyone interested in the future of football media rights - The FT Business of Football Summit with it's panel discussion on the subject. Claire Enders socking it to us between the eyes

https://vimeo.com/513351482
Claire Enders is the worlds leading analyst on broadcast and media trends and licensing

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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by Grumps » Sat Feb 27, 2021 1:36 pm

NewClaret wrote:
Sat Feb 27, 2021 1:16 pm
:(

They’ve not written to me.
I got the email.. Plus its been in press and Martin Lewis

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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by NewClaret » Sat Feb 27, 2021 1:58 pm

Chester Perry wrote:
Sat Feb 27, 2021 1:23 pm


Claire Enders is the worlds leading analyst on broadcast and media trends and licensing
Watched the first 15 minutes. To be fair, she does call herself the prophet of doom :lol:, the head of BT Sport seemed a bit less certain/balanced.

I definitely think there will be a correction, as he described it. Mainly due to Covid but likely to occur anyway given a decade of rapid inflation. That’s basically the same as any assets though - be it a currency or a stock or property - if they rise sharply for long enough they will ultimately consolidate/correct. I still think the long term trend will be upward.

Although for us, I’d imagine the deferred payments owed to MG/JB will be based on future years revenue so a correction now might avoid us taking on more debt!!!

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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by NewClaret » Sat Feb 27, 2021 1:58 pm

Grumps wrote:
Sat Feb 27, 2021 1:36 pm
I got the email.. Plus its been in press and Martin Lewis
I’d better check my emails!

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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by Chester Perry » Sat Feb 27, 2021 3:50 pm

NewClaret wrote:
Sat Feb 27, 2021 1:58 pm
Watched the first 15 minutes. To be fair, she does call herself the prophet of doom :lol:, the head of BT Sport seemed a bit less certain/balanced.

I definitely think there will be a correction, as he described it. Mainly due to Covid but likely to occur anyway given a decade of rapid inflation. That’s basically the same as any assets though - be it a currency or a stock or property - if they rise sharply for long enough they will ultimately consolidate/correct. I still think the long term trend will be upward.

Although for us, I’d imagine the deferred payments owed to MG/JB will be based on future years revenue so a correction now might avoid us taking on more debt!!!
you definitely missed the most interesting bits then - like I said you need to watch it all and take in what is happening around the world in the media rights sector, particularly in America this year, where it is possible $200 billion are going to be committed to sports broadcast rights for the coming 10 years with the NFL looking to take half of that

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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by NewClaret » Sat Feb 27, 2021 4:50 pm

Chester Perry wrote:
Sat Feb 27, 2021 3:50 pm
you definitely missed the most interesting bits then - like I said you need to watch it all and take in what is happening around the world in the media rights sector, particularly in America this year, where it is possible $200 billion are going to be committed to sports broadcast rights for the coming 10 years with the NFL looking to take half of that
Will watch the rest later 👍🏻

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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by Newcastleclaret93 » Tue Mar 02, 2021 2:47 pm

Interesting that Dyche has said the following when it comes to attacking the summer window now the owners have had a bedding in period

“We do some background planning of course, but that is not the first concern for the chairmen and the people who are involved”

Surely this is the number 1 priority for the new owners? Our squad is in tatters

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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by daveisaclaret » Tue Mar 02, 2021 2:59 pm

We don't want to sign too many good players else we risk our position as everyone's favourite underdog

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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by aggi » Tue Mar 02, 2021 6:42 pm

Grumps wrote:
Thu Feb 25, 2021 11:41 am
Perhaps iam in the minority, but I expect to be treated as a customer by the club because at the end of the day, that's what I am, and iam not actually sure how different a fan thinks they should be treated.
That's not to say that customer relations need to improve, but not down to being given every detail of how the club is run.
I think that's where this started: suggestions that fans aren't "entitled" to know anything about the inner workings of the club, takeover details, etc as they are just customers.

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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by Milltown1882 » Sat Mar 13, 2021 9:49 pm

This ones gone a bit quiet after we’ve picked some good points up

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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by Chester Perry » Sat Mar 13, 2021 11:08 pm

Milltown1882 wrote:
Sat Mar 13, 2021 9:49 pm
This ones gone a bit quiet after we’ve picked some good points up
much more to do with no new news - though that very long interview with Matt Williams did confirm that the new owners were very keen on significantly increasing the secondary spend on matchdays, which does not come as a surprise to anyone paying attention really, You do wonder what that means for the pubs and clubs in town though - they cannot both benefit from the limited spend our fans have.

"One club for all" don't you know

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