ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

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Quickenthetempo
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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by Quickenthetempo » Thu Dec 01, 2022 4:27 pm

Has anything been said about an AGM yet?

I thought I heard they were bringing them back into the club?

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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by AshevilleNCClaret » Thu Dec 01, 2022 5:05 pm

As a non-finance person, I applaud the effort taken here by posters to sort through the financials to see where our club stands.
I was initially skeptical about Pace and Co. and by reading between the lines, our financial position may or may not be rosy.

As an outsider, we are only really profitable while in the PL. Its possible a few player sales could lucrative (I see Zaroury's value possibly going through the roof), but getting a player at 5 million and selling for 10 million 2 years later, isn't going to knock down a significant portion of the debt, considering we will need to replace that player.

But as for the product on the field and recruitment, Pace and VK seem to have us going in the right direction. Looking forward to the championship starting up again and a having a fantastic 2023.

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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by Chester Perry » Thu Dec 01, 2022 5:32 pm

Swizzlestick wrote:
Thu Dec 01, 2022 3:16 pm
It's worth pointing out that football club accounts can often be filed last minute - Blackburn's were, for instance. There's usually a good number of dotting the i's and crossing the t's to get to completion, as well as some often laborious going concern work. I think it's best to wait and see re the overdue accounts - often it can just be down to administrative issues, particularly involving somewhat complex group structures that also spread offshore.
The argument of that is what others do is and always has been a week one, such as a petulant child may use. If you want to be Britain's favourite underdog, try and do things the right way, engage and be open with your fans, become a model of how you want to be perceived, not one that is called out by those with interests in the game, be an example and set the standards for the rest.

It is worth noting that there are a number of moves to try and make football more open and that includes filing accounts much earlier. I remember that Alan Pace was all for the idea of an Independent Football Regulator until he realised just what people had in mind for the reach and authority of the role, then he quickly backtracked, without acknowledging his previous comments.

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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by Swizzlestick » Thu Dec 01, 2022 5:38 pm

Petulant child? Excuse me?

It wasn’t an argument, it was an observation that accounts are often filed at the last minute.

I’ll leave you to it.
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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by Big Vinny K » Thu Dec 01, 2022 6:08 pm

Chester Perry wrote:
Thu Dec 01, 2022 5:32 pm
The argument of that is what others do is and always has been a week one, such as a petulant child may use. If you want to be Britain's favourite underdog, try and do things the right way, engage and be open with your fans, become a model of how you want to be perceived, not one that is called out by those with interests in the game, be an example and set the standards for the rest.

It is worth noting that there are a number of moves to try and make football more open and that includes filing accounts much earlier. I remember that Alan Pace was all for the idea of an Independent Football Regulator until he realised just what people had in mind for the reach and authority of the role, then he quickly backtracked, without acknowledging his previous comments.
Who wants to be Britain’s favourite underdog ? I doubt whether Pace is bothered about this and Kompany even less so.

As for football becoming more open with its finances firstly it can hardly become less open and secondly “filing your accounts earlier” is not really going to achieve this.

I don’t know why we have been late in filing our accounts. It could be a genuine administrative mistake or it could be something underhand. Even if it’s the latter we will just be joining a long list of football clubs in pretty much every league in every country in the world who believe that normal accounting and business rules don’t apply to them and that the clubs finances are nothing to do with their fans or anyone else for that matter.

We have probably been a bit spoilt under Garlick that are accounts were pretty easy to understand for most supporters. There was little in our old financial structure and model which was too complex. Where we are now under Pace and the complexities of overseas owners, debt, subsidiary and holding companies, share buy backs etc is probably more the norm with many of the top football clubs. Unfortunately for supporters not only is this completely outside of our control but it also leaves many questions unanswered….hence the length of this thread !!!!

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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by Chester Perry » Thu Dec 01, 2022 6:39 pm

Swizzlestick wrote:
Thu Dec 01, 2022 5:38 pm
Petulant child? Excuse me?

It wasn’t an argument, it was an observation that accounts are often filed at the last minute.

I’ll leave you to it.
I never said it was your argument - I just said it was the argument of a petulant child and it is

And while some wait until the last minute - for most the reporting period is between December and March, and there are a number who have already posted their financial results for last season

If the club and its owners aspire to be better than others, then this in tandem with other things would be a way to set out the example that is all

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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by Chester Perry » Thu Dec 01, 2022 6:56 pm

Big Vinny K wrote:
Thu Dec 01, 2022 6:08 pm
Who wants to be Britain’s favourite underdog ? I doubt whether Pace is bothered about this
I am not disagreeing with you, but there have been a number of posters here believe that we should take him at his word. This was very evident at the time when his sincerity was questioned a small group on here - and it has been used as a bat to beat them with ever since, with the anti-Pace accusations.

What else do you think Pace said in that first week after the takeover as he fielded all those journalist's questions that he in reality didn't mean?

I posted the two quotes I keep coming back to the other day up this thread, anybody have any others?

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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by aggi » Thu Dec 01, 2022 7:21 pm

Chester Perry wrote:
Thu Dec 01, 2022 5:32 pm
The argument of that is what others do is and always has been a week one, such as a petulant child may use. If you want to be Britain's favourite underdog, try and do things the right way, engage and be open with your fans, become a model of how you want to be perceived, not one that is called out by those with interests in the game, be an example and set the standards for the rest.

It is worth noting that there are a number of moves to try and make football more open and that includes filing accounts much earlier. I remember that Alan Pace was all for the idea of an Independent Football Regulator until he realised just what people had in mind for the reach and authority of the role, then he quickly backtracked, without acknowledging his previous comments.
I don't think our favourite underdog status is going to depend on when we file our accounts. To be honest I don't think more than a few hundred fans would really notice if it wasn't pointed out to them that they're overdue.

Enough clubs file accounts right at the end of the permitted period that it isn't something unusual enough to comment on I'd say. I think quite often where our views diverge is when I look at stuff from a commercial experience and you're looking at a football perspective.
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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by Chester Perry » Thu Dec 01, 2022 7:38 pm

aggi wrote:
Thu Dec 01, 2022 7:21 pm
I don't think our favourite underdog status is going to depend on when we file our accounts. To be honest I don't think more than a few hundred fans would really notice if it wasn't pointed out to them that they're overdue.

Enough clubs file accounts right at the end of the permitted period that it isn't something unusual enough to comment on I'd say. I think quite often where our views diverge is when I look at stuff from a commercial experience and you're looking at a football perspective.
I get all the commercial perspective, and do not have an issue with it in general, but as we keep saying Football is not a normal business, customers do not dip into their own pockets to help almost any other kind of business and football fans do. Many Burnley fans have done so over the years and not just for their own club. This is why I believe and argue that football should operate to a higher standard, and I am far from being isolated on that particular standpoint.

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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by Big Vinny K » Thu Dec 01, 2022 7:45 pm

Chester Perry wrote:
Thu Dec 01, 2022 6:56 pm
I am not disagreeing with you, but there have been a number of posters here believe that we should take him at his word. This was very evident at the time when his sincerity was questioned a small group on here - and it has been used as a bat to beat them with ever since, with the anti-Pace accusations.

What else do you think Pace said in that first week after the takeover as he fielded all those journalist's questions that he in reality didn't mean?

I posted the two quotes I keep coming back to the other day up this thread, anybody have any others?
Tbh I would be absolutely amazed if there is ever a time under this ownership when we find out any kind of real detail as to the clubs finances especially in terms of the end game and financial strategy.

We will here generic things like increasing revenue ; sourcing further investment etc but we already know that and which owners of a football club would say any different ?

I think Pace seems like a personable fellow and he certainly seems good at portraying this. He’s made a fantastic appointment in VK and whilst we are performing like we are for the vast majority of supporters will be happy and AP will be given a lot of latitude regarding the finances of the club or any future plans.

I’m looking forward to seeing the accounts - I always do !! I don’t think there will be any surprises though and I and everyone else will still be left guessing at what is going to happen in the next couple of years. Promotion to the Premier League would be interesting as to what AP will do in terms of the wage bill, transfers, the debt etc

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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by Paul Waine » Thu Dec 01, 2022 8:00 pm

Chester Perry wrote:
Thu Dec 01, 2022 6:39 pm
I never said it was your argument - I just said it was the argument of a petulant child and it is

And while some wait until the last minute - for most the reporting period is between December and March, and there are a number who have already posted their financial results for last season

If the club and its owners aspire to be better than others, then this in tandem with other things would be a way to set out the example that is all
Hi CP, I've got to disagree with you re date of filing accounts. It is best practice to file at the end of the permitted period. There are lots of good reasons for this. Football clubs are all in commercial competition with all other football clubs - think transfer negotiations, bidding for players, sponsorship opportunities. There's no gain in declaring your hand any earlier than it has to be declared. Lenders, whether banks and entities such as MSD, will all have agreed access to the financial information throughout the year. They don't need to wait for accounts to be filled at Companies House. Of course, clubs that have their shares quoted and traded on a public exchange have an earlier reporting deadline, and often interim reporting requirements. All clubs should logically choose their year end to be in the close season. Thus most were 30th June y/ends. It was logical to extend to 31st July when 2019/20 season was delayed. It surprises me how few did so. (Look at the attribution of covid-19 losses by some clubs, especially when covid-19 losses exempted from ffp). There are advantages to "interested parties" in the later filings. There is the possibility of more disclosures in the "post-balance sheet events" notes. More time to prepare and consider the accounts including the auditor's review and sign-off assists a more informative set of accounts (provided the reader understands accounting language, rules and conventions). Yes, there can be discrepancies and inconsistencies in accounting disclosures.

I've no issues with the BFC accounts.

There's no logic and nothing to gain by delaying/late filing of Calder and Kettering. It may be as those entities are simply shareholders in BFC that there's no "full time accountant" so, no one has it in their calendar to file until Companies House sends out reminders. (I found myself in this position when I put my small consulting business on one side and returned to full time employment. I was late filing the accounts that said "nothing being done" but, of course, Companies House didn't know this - even though HMRC did - so, I got a chaser I wasn't expecting).

ALK and VSP not part of BFC ownership chain. Again, it may be nothing going on, so no accountant with job to prepare accounts.

I'm hoping the club aspire to be "better than others" on the football pitch. Financial success will follow football success.

UTC

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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by Chester Perry » Thu Dec 01, 2022 8:26 pm

Paul, I am fully aware of the things you list re the get Clubs filings, it should make no difference post the January window

As for your comments comparing your consultancy to KCL/CVHL I am guessing that your consultancy didn't borrow tens of millions of pounds from a related party, that have been confirmed in the related parties accounts and for all the world it looks like there have been further borrowings of tens more millions of pounds since those filings.

As I said earlier, ALK/VSP in the UK are essentially dormant and the issue is more of a general trend and practice not the reporting content for those entities

As for the difference between commercial business and Football business, absolutely anybody who has put money into a bucket at a match, to help a club out. at some point in their life or took part in fund raising events such as the 500 mile campaign at our club has fundamentally made a decision that Football is not like other businesses whether that be a conscious one or not.

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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by Paul Waine » Thu Dec 01, 2022 9:08 pm

Chester Perry wrote:
Thu Dec 01, 2022 8:26 pm
Paul, I am fully aware of the things you list re the get Clubs filings, it should make no difference post the January window

As for your comments comparing your consultancy to KCL/CVHL I am guessing that your consultancy didn't borrow tens of millions of pounds from a related party, that have been confirmed in the related parties accounts and for all the world it looks like there have been further borrowings of tens more millions of pounds since those filings.

As I said earlier, ALK/VSP in the UK are essentially dormant and the issue is more of a general trend and practice not the reporting content for those entities

As for the difference between commercial business and Football business, absolutely anybody who has put money into a bucket at a match, to help a club out. at some point in their life or took part in fund raising events such as the 500 mile campaign at our club has fundamentally made a decision that Football is not like other businesses whether that be a conscious one or not.
Love the idea that my little consultancy might have borrowed millions from any other entity, related party or otherwise. I might have been sitting on the board of BFC if that was the case.

Yes, fans have a relationship with the club they support. But, throwing a few (or many) coins in a bucket is no more than many do for many other causes. Similarly, taking donations of goods to a charity shop (my favourite is BHF. Cancer Research and a hospice are also on my list). These charities are also companies and businesses. It's more common than you credit for entities to receive goodwill from supporters. Of course, those fans who bought shares, even if they never thought they might get their money back, have a shareholder relationship. They might lose their money, they might get it back, they might make large gains as those who accepted ALK/VSP offer.

So, let's acknowledge that BFC, as all other football clubs, has to produce financial accounts in accordance with the regulations that apply and nothing more than that.

Calder and Kettering will get sorted. We just need to be patient.

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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by Chester Perry » Thu Dec 01, 2022 9:14 pm

Paul Waine wrote:
Thu Dec 01, 2022 9:08 pm
Calder and Kettering will get sorted. We just need to be patient.
They had already applied for an extension to for them to be due in October, originally due in July was my understanding. As always, happy to be proved wrong on this.

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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by Chester Perry » Fri Dec 02, 2022 10:26 am

Paul Waine wrote:
Thu Dec 01, 2022 9:08 pm

Yes, fans have a relationship with the club they support. But, throwing a few (or many) coins in a bucket is no more than many do for many other causes. Similarly, taking donations of goods to a charity shop (my favourite is BHF. Cancer Research and a hospice are also on my list). These charities are also companies and businesses. It's more common than you credit for entities to receive goodwill from supporters. Of course, those fans who bought shares, even if they never thought they might get their money back, have a shareholder relationship. They might lose their money, they might get it back, they might make large gains as those who accepted ALK/VSP offer.
It has been regularly proven that Football/prime sports club is more intrinsically important to a community than more or less any charity that you care to mention.

It is impossible to live in a town like Burnley and not be aware that a lot of Charities are run as businesses (more or less first and foremost). Indeed, I would say the same about being a supporter of a club in the 92, just look at the numbers employed by BFC in the Community.

Charities of course are given special exceptions but are also subject to an extra level of governance - some may argue that football is not too different under the FA and Leagues.

There remains a fundamental difference though, each year a perhaps surprising number of these charities that operate as Businesses fail and shut down forever, some are lamented others are not. How many are replaced by a group of donors passionate about the cause. This is where Football clubs (and indeed other sports clubs) are often differentiated, they tend on the whole to mean so much more to a community's sense of identity and emotional wellbeing.

So, when a club ultimately fails there is a way found to bring the club or the sense of the club back to life. Witness the different approaches of Bolton and Bury (where there are two different groups essentially trying to do the same thing. Look at the fight fans are putting in at Rochdale and Southend, see how new hope has been generated at Wimbledon and Macclesfield and who can forget the long running campaigns at Charlton and Blackpool even consider the rebirth of interest, support and hope at our club that began with the Orient game.

Yes, currently, the rules are the same for reporting as other businesses, but football clubs are very definitely not just businesses - this thread and board shows that. The momentum for change is building, pressure is building within the game, from support groups (who are now hugely well organised), within the media and perhaps more importantly in government on all sides. Not everyone is aware of all the initiatives and coalition of interest groups, but they are more determined than ever before, with their voices getting louder and more influential.

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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by claptrappers_union » Fri Dec 02, 2022 10:43 am

Big Vinny K wrote:
Thu Dec 01, 2022 6:08 pm
Who wants to be Britain’s favourite underdog ? I doubt whether Pace is bothered about this and Kompany even less so.
The ‘favourite underdog’ thing is nothing more than an angle proposed by Pace when he first took the reins. It was to differentiate ourselves from the other Premier League clubs on a global perspective. Not sure if it’s a thing now though

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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by DCWat » Fri Dec 02, 2022 2:58 pm

Notice that underdog is referenced in the new pre match build up monologue. Does it say something along the lines of “underestimating our underdog blood”? Each time I hear it I have visions of Alan sat at his desk penning it - do we know who wrote it?

I must admit that surprisingly, I quite like it as an addition to the pre match build up, perhaps barring the odd cheesy line. It’d be finished off nicely if we had a proper walk out song that became synonymous with the football club.

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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by Paul Waine » Fri Dec 02, 2022 11:11 pm

Chester Perry wrote:
Fri Dec 02, 2022 10:26 am
It has been regularly proven that Football/prime sports club is more intrinsically important to a community than more or less any charity that you care to mention.

It is impossible to live in a town like Burnley and not be aware that a lot of Charities are run as businesses (more or less first and foremost). Indeed, I would say the same about being a supporter of a club in the 92, just look at the numbers employed by BFC in the Community.

Charities of course are given special exceptions but are also subject to an extra level of governance - some may argue that football is not too different under the FA and Leagues.

There remains a fundamental difference though, each year a perhaps surprising number of these charities that operate as Businesses fail and shut down forever, some are lamented others are not. How many are replaced by a group of donors passionate about the cause. This is where Football clubs (and indeed other sports clubs) are often differentiated, they tend on the whole to mean so much more to a community's sense of identity and emotional wellbeing.

So, when a club ultimately fails there is a way found to bring the club or the sense of the club back to life. Witness the different approaches of Bolton and Bury (where there are two different groups essentially trying to do the same thing. Look at the fight fans are putting in at Rochdale and Southend, see how new hope has been generated at Wimbledon and Macclesfield and who can forget the long running campaigns at Charlton and Blackpool even consider the rebirth of interest, support and hope at our club that began with the Orient game.

Yes, currently, the rules are the same for reporting as other businesses, but football clubs are very definitely not just businesses - this thread and board shows that. The momentum for change is building, pressure is building within the game, from support groups (who are now hugely well organised), within the media and perhaps more importantly in government on all sides. Not everyone is aware of all the initiatives and coalition of interest groups, but they are more determined than ever before, with their voices getting louder and more influential.
Hi CP, I recommend you take a look at the Charity Commission for rules on the requirements to become a charity. Yes, running charity shops is a legitimate method of fund raising for charities, but the existence of the shops doesn't turn the charity's charitable purpose and activities into being a business.

OK, no worries that you don't get the point I was making about people making charitable donations to a registered charity being in one way or another a similar motivation to fans throwing coins into a collection bucket when the club they support (or other clubs) have run into financial challenges.

I grew up in Accrington. I recall watching through gaps in the railing when Accrington Stanley played at Peel Park before they folded mid-season. Six years later a new club "Accrington Stanley (1968)" was formed - "1968" had to be included in the name as they couldn't be a direct successor of the club that had folded (FA/League rules). Around the same time Burnley played Spurs in the FA Cup final and that's when I started being a Burnley fan. A little over 2 decades later I'd moved down to Southwest London. The biggest club near me was Wimbledon. They were soon to start their nomadic move to sharing another club's ground and, after a number of years, Wimbledon moved to Milton Keynes and then became Franchise FC, aka MK Dons. I'd friends who were Wimbledon fans. Some followed the club north out of London, others got involved with the foundation of AFC Wimbledon. For over 10 years I played 5-a-side on a Monday night adjacent to AFC's Kingstonian Stadium. I've seen AFC rise from non-league, move back to a new stadium in Plough Lane.

This is all the "romance" of football clubs. Yes, we all want our club to be successful. But, let's not get too dramatic about the importance of a football club that pays players many times the average national wage in terms of the community. Professional football clubs have got to be businesses, they have to operate like businesses. To do otherwise limits their chance of success. The existence of this mb says nothing more than football fans like to share on social media with other football fans. The minute we start thinking that professional football clubs should be held to a "higher standard" than any other business is the time that they start on the decline to no longer being professional football clubs.

I'll leave it at that. Let's see what the next thing is for us to look at re the club's finances.

UTC

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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by Spike » Fri Dec 02, 2022 11:48 pm

The failure to file the accounts hopefully is just a hitch . My own view is that it is stupid to delay and hopefully has needlessly created unnecessary anxiety when there really was nothing wrong
I look forward to the day when the present regime can submit accounts on time . That would truly be a Day for Thanksgiving in the Pace household

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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by Chester Perry » Sat Dec 03, 2022 12:08 am

Spike wrote:
Fri Dec 02, 2022 11:48 pm
The failure to file the accounts hopefully is just a hitch . My own view is that it is stupid to delay and hopefully has needlessly created unnecessary anxiety when there really was nothing wrong
I look forward to the day when the present regime can submit accounts on time . That would truly be a Day for Thanksgiving in the Pace household
The issue with the accounts at Calder Vale Holdings and Kettering Capital is that they someone applied to delay their publication in July to push them out to October - This was introduced as a help to businesses in respect of the impact of Covid. To then be so late on the extended date, requested on your behalf is in my very poo though I accept not everyone shares this view.

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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by Chester Perry » Sat Dec 03, 2022 12:10 am

Paul Waine wrote:
Fri Dec 02, 2022 11:11 pm
Hi CP, ....

UTC
Paul, there are time when I think we are having very different conversations
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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by Nori1958 » Sat Dec 03, 2022 6:51 am

Reading this thread, in the past week we've gone from paying off the debt, to being taken over by the Crown, and everything in between.
Bring back boring Mike :lol: :lol:

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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by Chester Perry » Mon Dec 05, 2022 9:07 pm

Chester Perry wrote:
Fri Nov 25, 2022 8:20 pm
This is very interesting

- according to TISE the remaining £32,762,013.75 capital loan outstanding with MSD was cancelled on November 17 2022 - that could suggest that they have been paid off, but I must stress that it is not definitive that his is what has happened

https://tisegroup.com/market/companies/8061

given this was 9 days ago you would expect that if it was paid off there would have been an announcement of about it and more importantly that the associated 'Charge' on Kettering Capital Limited, Calder Vale Holdings Limited Burnley FC Holdings Limited, Burnley Football and Athletic Club Limited, Longside Properties Limited would be registered as 'satisfied' - at present this is not the case - all the above show the charge as 'outstanding'

Of course, it wasn't that long ago that the Daily Mail ran a piece saying the club were actively seeking a refinancing deal - that articled cited Aldermore as being the favoured institution for such a deal. There are no new charges on any of the above companies so it may be that a refinancing deal has been struck with MSD or simply that MSD themselves are restructuring how they are managing the loan internally.

One thing we do know is that it looks like a key public indicator of the club's financial actions and liabilities is no longer available to us
I have been thinking about this a bit more - and my mind went back to when MSD first listed on TISE with loan notes related to the agreements with Southampton and Derby - when it was first brought to our attention by Kieran Maguire our friend TheEsk pointed out that there was also an option in the listing for PiK (Payment in Kind) notes

https://twitter.com/KieranMaguire/statu ... 8756404224

So, I have gone back to the original listing of the related £65m and found (if you look at the PDF version of the Listing) that there was an option for unlimited PiK Notes to be added
Original TISE Listing £65m MSDUKH.JPG
Original TISE Listing £65m MSDUKH.JPG (135.17 KiB) Viewed 4699 times
The request to cancel the listing of the loan notes for the outstanding balance makes no mention of the PiK option
Cancellation request TISE Listing outstanding balance MSDUKH.JPG
Cancellation request TISE Listing outstanding balance MSDUKH.JPG (47.13 KiB) Viewed 4699 times
This may be because no PiK Notes have ever been issued

I am very much out of my depth here so would appreciate guidance from someone who understands these things

Is it possible that that MSD have issued PiK notes in lieu of the loan notes?

Would we be able to see if Pik Notes had been issued? (I have long noted the gap between the £55m loan note that appears related to Southampton and the £78.8m that was actually loan to Southampton)

Or is it just the case that everything associated with the original listing was cancelled in this notice?
Cancellation confirmation TISE Listing outstanding balance MSDUKH.JPG
Cancellation confirmation TISE Listing outstanding balance MSDUKH.JPG (50.77 KiB) Viewed 4699 times

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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by Spike » Mon Dec 05, 2022 9:34 pm

Alan Pace will clear it up for us because he is that sort of guy

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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by dsr » Mon Dec 05, 2022 10:17 pm

Chester Perry wrote:
Mon Dec 05, 2022 9:07 pm
I have been thinking about this a bit more - and my mind went back to when MSD first listed on TISE with loan notes related to the agreements with Southampton and Derby - when it was first brought to our attention by Kieran Maguire our friend TheEsk pointed out that there was also an option in the listing for PiK (Payment in Kind) notes

[rest of quote cut for brevity]
It does say the loan notes were issued, not just proposed.

I think the simplest and most frequent reason for loan notes like these to be cancelled, is that they have been paid off. Whether via other borrowings, or out of some other sort of income, who knows.

Other solutions are available!

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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by Paul Waine » Mon Dec 05, 2022 10:36 pm

Chester Perry wrote:
Mon Dec 05, 2022 9:07 pm
I have been thinking about this a bit more - and my mind went back to when MSD first listed on TISE with loan notes related to the agreements with Southampton and Derby - when it was first brought to our attention by Kieran Maguire our friend TheEsk pointed out that there was also an option in the listing for PiK (Payment in Kind) notes

This may be because no PiK Notes have ever been issued

I am very much out of my depth here so would appreciate guidance from someone who understands these things

Is it possible that that MSD have issued PiK notes in lieu of the loan notes?

Would we be able to see if Pik Notes had been issued?

Or is it just the case that everything associated with the original listing was cancelled in this notice?

Cancellation confirmation TISE Listing outstanding balance MSDUKH.JPG
Hi CP, as we know PIK means that additional (PIK) loan notes are issued in lieu of paying cash interest on the loan. The club's accounts make no mention of any additional loan notes being issued in lieu of payment of interest on the loan. (I've taken another look this evening before posting...). Of course, there's the details in Note 18 about the need to agree repayment of part of the loan in the event of relegation etc etc. Nothing at all in the accounts about adding to the loan by borrowing more money in lieu of paying interest.

I can't see how it would make any sense for MSD to say to ALK/VSL/BFC that principal on the loan must be repaid because the club has been relegated and at the same time say, here are some new PIK loan notes in lieu of paying the interest on the principal amount outstanding.

Of course, we still don't know what is behind the cancellation of the $32 million MSD loan notes on TISE.

Maybe the missing information is BFC re-financing with Aldermore... However, if this were to take place I suspect it would be a very new departure for Aldermore...

Maybe there will be some news that will assist in piecing it all together in the coming weeks...

UTC

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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by thehistorylecturer2 » Wed Dec 14, 2022 6:54 pm

ClaretPete001 wrote:
Mon Oct 31, 2022 6:30 pm
Aye and I'm sure at your next UCU meeting you will be suggesting that the community college or University you work at is run by investment bankers?

Not...
Apologies for the late reply but I’ve been rather busy completing some transcription work and I managed to lose my UTC password anyway I digress … I don’t attend UCU meetings old chap as I am not a member of the UCU .. I have no control over the ownership of my football club or the economics of my institution .. no point getting myself in a state about either.

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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by Paul Waine » Thu Dec 15, 2022 8:21 pm

Maybe CP has already posted details re Bournemouth new owners on MMT thread.

I think it's interesting to include here and compare with ALK's acquisition of BFC.

Bournemouth takeover: New owner Bill Foley 'a dictator' and 'needs to be captain of the ship'

BBC: www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/63982991

New Bournemouth owner Bill Foley led a takeover of the club because he needs to be "the captain of the ship" - and has described himself as "a dictator".

Foley became Cherries chairman after his Black Knight Football Club group bought the Premier League outfit.

The American businessman also owns NHL franchise the Vegas Golden Knights.

"I have been looking at different investment situations in the Premier League for several years but I'm not a good minority owner," he told the BBC.

"I tell my limited partners, and they know this, there is nothing more limited than being a limited partner of Bill Foley."

Foley-led partnership completes Bournemouth takeover
Foley is chairman of Cannae Holdings Inc, which has a 50.1% interest in Bournemouth.

"I have looked at several teams over the last two or three years and they all involved minority investment and someone else is already in charge. I don't like that. I'm a dictator," he told BBC Radio Solent.

"When I'm involved, I need to be the captain of the ship. I had to wait for a situation where I could buy the team myself, with my partners of course, and control the destiny of the team.

"I've always said with the Vegas Golden Knights that if there's a mistake made then it's on me. I'll take responsibility and I plan on doing the same thing with AFCB."

The deal for Bournemouth is reported to have cost about £120m, and the minority ownership group of the club is led by Hollywood actor Michael B Jordan.

Foley said there were "no borrowings" involved in the deal and "we ended up raising roughly $250m". He described the deal as "a bargain".

"The MLS, unfortunately, requires a stadium to be built and, in the United States, that is costing $600-700m," he said.

"The franchise fee itself, I think, is $300m so you are into it for a billion dollars before you have a team.

"I'm buying a Premier League team that already has a stadium, already has players and I can improve it. I don't see us being involved in the MLS."

Foley plans to ensure there are "adequate funds" for a new training facility, building a new stadium or upgrading the Vitality Stadium, and player transfers.

And he is pursuing a "multi-club concept", saying: "We are in negotiations with a Ligue 1 team in exclusivity and with a first division team in Belgium that would give us that little triangle that we could move players back and forth.

"We raised adequate funds to fund all these transactions. I'm excited about how much progress we are making. Everyone in Bournemouth is going to be excited about this."

He added: "It's going to take us a few years to do this.

"The big thing is we need more seats as 11,300 is not adequate for what we need to accomplish at Bournemouth."

He is also looking to change the make-up of the fans at matches.

"When I went to the game, I looked around the stadium and everyone looked like me - older, white men," he said.

"I want to expand our base. We have to go younger, I want a lot more females going to our games. I want diversity - then we really have something going."

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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by Chester Perry » Thu Dec 15, 2022 9:24 pm

I see the Libor rate has jumped again following the increase in the base rate from the BoE today - 4.7% for 3 month Libor today - on top of the 8% base that is a sizeable amount of interest. In September it was 3.6%

as I understand it this will mean that the quarterly interest payment to MSD due next week will be over £1m around £210k more than the last one

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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by Paul Waine » Thu Dec 15, 2022 9:52 pm

Chester Perry wrote:
Thu Dec 15, 2022 9:24 pm
I see the Libor rate has jumped again following the increase in the base rate from the BoE today - 4.7% for 3 month Libor today - on top of the 8% base that is a sizeable amount of interest. In September it was 3.6%

as I understand it this will mean that the quarterly interest payment to MSD due next week will be over £1m around £210k more than the last one
The MSD loan agreement will have specific dates when the interest rate for the next 3 months period is determined. It's two decades when I was handling these types of agreements. If memory serves, interest rate may be re-fixed for example on 1st January for the period 1st Jan to 31st March. Similarly, Libor on 1st October used to set rate for 3 months 1st October to 31st December. (Always allowing for non-banking days when 3 months Libor wouldn't be quoted).

Agree, of course, as Libor moves higher (or Sonia, if replacement to Libor applies) the interest charged on the outstanding balance of loan (assuming no offset interest rate hedge) will be higher.

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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by OffTheBar » Thu Dec 15, 2022 11:04 pm

Chester Perry wrote:
Thu Dec 15, 2022 9:24 pm
I see the Libor rate has jumped again following the increase in the base rate from the BoE today - 4.7% for 3 month Libor today - on top of the 8% base that is a sizeable amount of interest. In September it was 3.6%

as I understand it this will mean that the quarterly interest payment to MSD due next week will be over £1m around £210k more than the last one
Libor doesn’t exist anymore. Where have you got 4.7% from?

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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by OffTheBar » Thu Dec 15, 2022 11:31 pm

Also, how are you calculating the quarterly interest payment? I think you’ve got your figures wrong there.

As Paul says too, the next interest payment would use the previous rate not the current one.

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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by Paul Waine » Fri Dec 16, 2022 9:48 am

OffTheBar wrote:
Thu Dec 15, 2022 11:04 pm
Libor doesn’t exist anymore. Where have you got 4.7% from?
Hi OffTheBar, Libor is still assessed by ICE for a reduced list of currencies, including USD, GBP and JPY. I think it's only 5 maturities these days. I'm retired now, so I'm unsure whether there is a date when Libor is no longer quoted.

Lots more info on this link: https://www.global-rates.com/en/interes ... libor.aspx

CP's 4.7% is USD rate. GBP 3 months is around 3.8% (14th Dec) - so not quite a big move as CP has suggested.

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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by OffTheBar » Fri Dec 16, 2022 10:40 am

It’s not really libor now but a proxy from sonia. Actual GBP libor stopped nearly a year ago.

Mistaking for the USD rate makes sense for 4.7.

3m GBP rate would barely have moved yesterday - was expected to happen. In fact Libor would have been fixed before the BoE meeting anyway, in the old days.

Roughly 1m per quarter in interest makes sense but the 210k didn’t.

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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by ClaretPete001 » Fri Dec 16, 2022 12:53 pm

thehistorylecturer2 wrote:
Wed Dec 14, 2022 6:54 pm
Apologies for the late reply but I’ve been rather busy completing some transcription work and I managed to lose my UTC password anyway I digress … I don’t attend UCU meetings old chap as I am not a member of the UCU .. I have no control over the ownership of my football club or the economics of my institution .. no point getting myself in a state about either.
Absolutely, but rest assured if you work in an educational institution the good folks of the NUT, UCU and ATL amongst others will be carrying the load...

Anyway old boy, we must stop the sniping there are kippers to smoke, fine wines to quaff and good cheer to be had....! And in the words of the venerable architect of the spoken word ...Sir Noddicus Holdicus....itttttttttttttttttttttttttttt's Christmas.

Well nearly....!

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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by Paul Waine » Fri Dec 16, 2022 2:46 pm

OffTheBar wrote:
Fri Dec 16, 2022 10:40 am
It’s not really libor now but a proxy from sonia. Actual GBP libor stopped nearly a year ago.

Mistaking for the USD rate makes sense for 4.7.

3m GBP rate would barely have moved yesterday - was expected to happen. In fact Libor would have been fixed before the BoE meeting anyway, in the old days.

Roughly 1m per quarter in interest makes sense but the 210k didn’t.
Thanks. I've done a bit of reading up. I now understand it something like this: GBP Libor ended in 2021. "Synthetic GBP Libor" is assessed as SONIA + CAS (credit adjustment spread). USD Libor will continue until mid-year 2023. Transition from Libor to replacement benchmark not a simple task for those who need to do it. Both parties (and multiple parties for a bond) need to agree on the change.

Re BFC and MSD, I'd imagine that provision for the transition were included in the £65 million loan agreement. I imagine there may be a footnote in the next set of accounts re the new interest benchmark replacing 3 months Libor. Of course, more important information is expected than merely transition to a new benchmark.

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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by Chester Perry » Wed Dec 21, 2022 11:03 am

Kettering Capital Limited joins the rest of ALK's UK business entities with a First Gazette notice for compulsory strike off - document in preparation - date will be accounts being two months late. this after having claimed a 3 month extension to the filing of the accounts in the summer.

https://find-and-update.company-informa ... ng-history

For those struggling to understand/remember where it fits in the structure, Kettering Capital Limited is the parent of Calder Vale Holdings Limited which holds all the shares in the club and has borrowed circa £144.5m (my estimation) from Burnley FC Holdings Limited to pay for shares. Kettering Capital is also where we get our best estimations of initial takeover down payment capital and the actual contribution of ALK/VSL to the takeover.

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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by Chester Perry » Wed Jan 04, 2023 1:14 pm

The first set of accounts for Calder Vale Holdings Limited are now 3 months overdue - this after having been granted a 3 month extension in their filing in the summer - so they are 6 months overdue re their original required submission date.

https://find-and-update.company-informa ... y/12919689

we are now 18 working days from a compulsory strike off for this offence.

I recognise that a number of serious, experienced and informed posters do not feel this is a serious issue just yet, but I will just remind everyone that this is the entity that holds 106,107 of the 122,478 shares in Burnley FC Holdings and by my last estimations had loaned circa £144.5m from the same. Last year this same entity was late with it's confirmation statement (next one due by the 20th of this month) which resulted in a first gazette notice for compulsory strike off that was dealt with much more swiftly than the current one.

Given the lateness of the accounts can we expect post date events to include everything i.e. all the loans from Burnley FC Holdings Limited, through to the one that facilitated the early October payment of the 4th stage payment on the takeover, within them, when they are finally submitted?

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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by scouseclaret » Wed Jan 04, 2023 1:23 pm

“Upon the Company’s dissolution, all property rights vested in, or held in trust for, the Company are deemed to be bon vacantia, and will belong to the Crown.”

Just as well the King's a Burnley fan then...

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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by Chester Perry » Wed Jan 04, 2023 1:28 pm

scouseclaret wrote:
Wed Jan 04, 2023 1:23 pm
“Upon the Company’s dissolution, all property rights vested in, or held in trust for, the Company are deemed to be bon vacantia, and will belong to the Crown.”

Just as well the King's a Burnley fan then...
I cannot see Pace and Co throwing everything away so lightly - but there is something in those accounts that is causing problems for them would be my speculative guess
This user liked this post: AfloatinClaret

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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by aggi » Wed Jan 04, 2023 2:40 pm

Chester Perry wrote:
Wed Jan 04, 2023 1:14 pm
The first set of accounts for Calder Vale Holdings Limited are now 3 months overdue - this after having been granted a 3 month extension in their filing in the summer - so they are 6 months overdue re their original required submission date.

https://find-and-update.company-informa ... y/12919689

we are now 18 working days from a compulsory strike off for this offence.

I recognise that a number of serious, experienced and informed posters do not feel this is a serious issue just yet, but I will just remind everyone that this is the entity that holds 106,107 of the 122,478 shares in Burnley FC Holdings and by my last estimations had loaned circa £144.5m from the same. Last year this same entity was late with it's confirmation statement (next one due by the 20th of this month) which resulted in a first gazette notice for compulsory strike off that was dealt with much more swiftly than the current one.

Given the lateness of the accounts can we expect post date events to include everything i.e. all the loans from Burnley FC Holdings Limited, through to the one that facilitated the early October payment of the 4th stage payment on the takeover, within them, when they are finally submitted?
What shows up as post balance sheet events will depend on what the reason is for late filing.

If accounts were finalised and signed off a while ago but haven't been filed for some reason then you won't see anything beyond the signing date. If they have only recently been prepared and signed off then you will see more. It will be interesting to see when the accounts were signed off.

It's a curious situation. Obviously the longer it goes on the more dubious it looks but I struggle to think of a reason why it is being done deliberately.

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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by Chester Perry » Wed Jan 04, 2023 3:42 pm

aggi wrote:
Wed Jan 04, 2023 2:40 pm
What shows up as post balance sheet events will depend on what the reason is for late filing.

If accounts were finalised and signed off a while ago but haven't been filed for some reason then you won't see anything beyond the signing date. If they have only recently been prepared and signed off then you will see more. It will be interesting to see when the accounts were signed off.

It's a curious situation. Obviously the longer it goes on the more dubious it looks but I struggle to think of a reason why it is being done deliberately.
Back in early December we were told that it was an oversight, that was in relation to ALK Capital Limited and Velocity Sports Limited, both of whom have still not had either of their Accounts or Confirmation Statements submitted. There has been no comment on the situations at Calder Vale Holdings or Kettering Capital.

All this inevitably leads to speculation - however undue - about the issue residing with auditors and a refusal to sign off. Like you I am struggling to understand what could lead to such a situation, but for an ownership that does not appear to like fans being curious about their practises they sure do a lot to prod and provoke that curiosity.

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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by dsr » Wed Jan 04, 2023 3:54 pm

If all that Calder Vale Property does is own the shares, then it won't need an audit. If a company has no income and no employees, it doesn't matter how many assets it has - an audit isn't needed.

Sp the directors could file accounts with all sorts of details missed off if they so wish. It would be illegal, but there's no-one to stop them.

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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by aggi » Wed Jan 04, 2023 4:51 pm

dsr wrote:
Wed Jan 04, 2023 3:54 pm
If all that Calder Vale Property does is own the shares, then it won't need an audit. If a company has no income and no employees, it doesn't matter how many assets it has - an audit isn't needed.

Sp the directors could file accounts with all sorts of details missed off if they so wish. It would be illegal, but there's no-one to stop them.
The group isn't small though so I'm fairly sure it would need an audit.

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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by dsr » Wed Jan 04, 2023 5:25 pm

aggi wrote:
Wed Jan 04, 2023 4:51 pm
The group isn't small though so I'm fairly sure it would need an audit.
Good point. Thanks.

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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by aggi » Thu Jan 19, 2023 7:57 am

Looks like the strike off action for Calder Vale Holdings and Kettering Capital has been discontinued. Assume accounts will be coming soon.

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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by Chester Perry » Thu Jan 19, 2023 10:46 am

aggi wrote:
Thu Jan 19, 2023 7:57 am
Looks like the strike off action for Calder Vale Holdings and Kettering Capital has been discontinued. Assume accounts will be coming soon.
I cannot think of any other reason - though I still really don't see why they should file them so late, it is over 6 months since they were originally due and over 3 months late on the extension date they got last summer - Confirmation statements are due tomorrow at Calder Vale Holdings and Kettering Capital Limited, so we may still see this saga extended for a third chapter - there is no reason why given how simple those statements should be.

Can we assume that the accounts will be following for ALK Capital Limited - though they actually need Accounts and Confirmation Statement to bring the strike off action to a close. Velocity Sports Partners Limited are also equally late with both but for some reason have not been hit with a first gazette notice

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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by Spike » Thu Jan 19, 2023 12:22 pm

Let’s hope the typewriter is finally working at Pace Plaza

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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by aggi » Wed Jan 25, 2023 10:38 am

Chester Perry wrote:
Thu Jan 19, 2023 10:46 am
I cannot think of any other reason - though I still really don't see why they should file them so late, it is over 6 months since they were originally due and over 3 months late on the extension date they got last summer - Confirmation statements are due tomorrow at Calder Vale Holdings and Kettering Capital Limited, so we may still see this saga extended for a third chapter - there is no reason why given how simple those statements should be.

Can we assume that the accounts will be following for ALK Capital Limited - though they actually need Accounts and Confirmation Statement to bring the strike off action to a close. Velocity Sports Partners Limited are also equally late with both but for some reason have not been hit with a first gazette notice
Velocity Sports Partners Limited now has its first strike off notice
https://find-and-update.company-informa ... y/12880579

Not seen anything come through at the others, either the overdue accounts or the Confirmation Statements that were due last week.

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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by Chester Perry » Wed Jan 25, 2023 10:58 am

aggi wrote:
Wed Jan 25, 2023 10:38 am
Velocity Sports Partners Limited now has its first strike off notice
https://find-and-update.company-informa ... y/12880579

Not seen anything come through at the others, either the overdue accounts or the Confirmation Statements that were due last week.
It has taken a long time to catch up up but it is really nice for them to have the full sell in regards to first published accounts

meanwhile you have to appreciate the how much more balanced these pages look
VSPL.JPG
VSPL.JPG (107.68 KiB) Viewed 128 times
ALKCL.JPG
ALKCL.JPG (100.47 KiB) Viewed 128 times

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